Direct reining with this curb bit?

[Peace]

Myler HBT shank (http://www.toklat.com/myler/mbits_cheek_h.html)

My schoolhorse, Boots, must be ridden in a curb bit (school rules). However, I ride with two hands ("english" style) and occasionally use a direct rein aid if my leg aids are ignored. I'm not even sure Bootsie knows how to neckrein.

For this situation, Myler recommend a bit with their "comfort snaffle" [sic] mouthpiece and the HBT shanks, which turn independently of each other and of the purchase. This bit supposedly allows a rider to give a direct rein aid without gouging the horse in the face with the same-side purchase or inadvertently tightening the curb strap. The curved bars and the little barrel-type thing in the middle of the mouthpiece are supposed to prevent the jointed mouthpiece collapsing in and gouging the tongue as a Tom Thumb would do.

Anybody know if this works? Do y'all think it might work? And if so, is there a cheaper alternative? Myler want $75.00 for this bit!

[Katie_85]

I think it would work just fine, it's the $75.00 Myler price tack that just about choked me! :eek: How about this, it's an Argntine snaffle. I know the mouthpiece is jointed but it has shanks and a curb chain which allows you the freedom to neck rein or use two hands. I'm attaching a picture, there's a Billy Allen bit (I think) that someone else on this forum likes a lot that might work better. Wish I could remember who, Galadriel perhaps? Here's the Argentine anyway: http://www.valleyvet.com/catalog_images/26077A.jpg

[Peace]

Boots is presently in an Argentine snaffle, and I like the fact that it has really short, curved shanks and so is not a harsh bit at all.:) But the shanks are solid, at least on the one Boots has. So when I pull the rein directly to the left (plough rein), the top of the left side of the bit where the headstall attaches (what I'd call the purchase) tips to the right, into Boots's face.

I suspect this is why we're having a problem with headtossing - well, that and the fact that he's waaaay overdue for the dentist (his former owners didn't treat him well, judging by his scars:( ). The closest dentist to us is about 150 miles away, so we'll have to wait for her to make her rounds down our way before we can do anything about his fangy little teeth.

He only tosses his head when I plough rein, or when he thinks I'm gonna. Of course, I only plough rein when he's ignored my leg and seat aids, so he's acting up already. I guess it's possible that the head tossing could just be his next step as he escalates his "aids" to me.;)

[KarinUS]

I am no expert in Western bits but I figure I throw in this idea:
We started with Missy in a Tom Thumb, which basically has a jointed snaffle bit and then joints on the sides so they can move independantly.
It did not work out for us at all! I think the whole thing just moved too much and actually confused and frustrated her.

If he does direct rein only, could you just get him a plain snaffle and add a really loose leather curb strap (just to comply with regulations)?

[Katie_85]

The part about digging into his face is new on me. Is it wide enough for his mouth? I only make that point because the bit is designed to let the sides operate independently. Maybe Boots is that one horse. ;) Also, if his teeth are way overdue that's probably why he's resisting direct pressure so much. What about this bit. It's called a Cavalry roller bit. I though the price was a bit steep, well, until I saw the Myler! :eek: lol This is what we use one some of the Walking horses. It looks like a nasty bit, but it isn't at all. The roller part in the middle allows each side of the bit to rotate 90 degrees without engaging the other. And the shanks are about an inch longer than the Argentine, but curved in 3 places so the pressure is not direct, like on, say, a grazing bit. I've been trying to find a picture for the last half hour, Deb carrier them, I'll have to ask her where she gets them and get the picture from them. :)

[galadriel]

If you only direct rein when he is resisting other aids, perhaps you can use something else instead of direct reining.

With the WP guys I was bringing back into work, if they were resisting my (neckrein) aids, I'd slide the rein way up the neck. So if I was asking for left turn, I'd bring the right rein up against the neck about halfway between poll and withers. That usually did the trick, and they went really well for it. Neither of them responded well to direct reining much at all.

By the way, I loved this bit:
http://www.saddleuptack.com/webcat/items/item1029.htm

Very gentle and without confusing movement.

[janet hakeney]

I suggest you have a look at what Mark Rashid (http://www.markrashid.com/) says about it. Go to the site and then to 'articles' and then to the article 'The trouble with Tom Thumb' This will explain to you why this sort of bit is a bad idea.

[Katie_85]

She's not thinking about using a Tom Thumb, hte horse is in an Argentine which is completely different. :)

[KarinUS]

Yes, that's what Boots is in now, but I think this post is about changing to a Myler HBT Shank- which looks exactly like a Tom Thumb. :confused:

[janet hakeney]

all these 'shank snaffles' are very similar. They are hybrid (aka bastard) bits whose action is ill thought out, and even in expert hands are unsatisfactory.

[Katie_85]

all these 'shank snaffles' are very similar. They are hybrid (aka bastard) bits whose action is ill thought out, and even in expert hands are unsatisfactory

I disagree. While the arguments against the Tom Thumb are good ones, not all shanked snaffles perform the same. I've not worked a horse yet that was unable to respod easily to an Argentine. On the other hand, I've had several with problems in the Tom Thumb, immediately remedied by switching to an Argentine.

[aphagirlie05]

The tom thumb really shouldn't be referred to as a snaffle at all. It is more harsh than the snaffle, and if used incorrectly can cause pinching problems at the side of your horse's mouth. It may have the same mouthpiece as the snaffle, but it works in a completely different matter, hence the use of a curb chain, making it a curb bit. Curb bits on the whole are more harsh than snaffles.

My personal favorite is the billy allen , a nice straight bar with a copper roller in the middle. The side pieces don't swivel to a large degree and therefore won't pinch the side of your horse's mouth, yet the bit still has the amount of give that keeps your horse relaxed and comfortable. The roller will also keep your horse busy, licking and chewing. The copper is really the best part. Piggy out at the barn just loves her roller on her mouthpiece. I use a billy allen for barrel racing, and get ten times better results than I did when I was using a Tom Thumb. We have a very nice myler bit for one of our western bridles, and the horse that used it, loved it to death. It's not the bit you're showing on the board, it resembles the billy allen with the straight bar, un-broken mouthpiece with a small silver roller in the middle. It works very well, so you might want to look into getting that one instead.

Also, it is perfectly acceptable to direct rein in a curb bit, I do it all the time! :D

I'll see what I can do about putting a pic up of the billy allen, but I don't know if I currently have one.

[Peace]

Turns out the dentist can come on the 15th of this month, so I'm going to wait on changing Boots's bit until after his teeth are done. It's possible, as Katie says, that it's not the bit at all and I'd be fixing something that ain't really broke.

But I'd still like to continue this bit discussion.:) Here's how I think the jointed mouthpiece curb (as several people pointed out, if it's got shanks it's no snaffle:) ) bits differ. And please correct me if I'm wrong - I'm here to learn.:)

In a bit with a solid shank, when I pull on the left rein, the bottom of the left shank moves left and the bottom of the right shank moves right, creating pressure on the right side of the horse's face. But the top of the left shank also must tip to the right, correct? And this would create pressure on the left side of the horse's face, which is the direction I'm asking him to turn into. Is this just not a problem if the bit is wide enough?

With the Tom Thumb, of course, the shank swivels - but it swivels as one piece. This definitely causes the top left part of the bit to tip into the horse's face, as illustrated in the picture in the Mark Rashid article Janet has linked. Very bad, I agree.

But with the HBT shank, or the Cavalry shank Katie mentioned (you can also see one of these on my Myler link - just click on "cheekpieces" at the top of the page), the bottom of the shank can apparently rotate independently of the top. According to the link, this is supposed to allow one to isolate the action of the bit so there's not pressure exerted at different points on the horse's face, e.g. top left and right side when the left rein is pulled.

edited to add - went to the tack shop at lunch and found one of the bits I wondered about. It's as Katie85 says - the barrel in the middle of the mouthpiece allows the sides to move independently. But the shank swivels in one piece, like a Tom Thumb.

[Katie_85]

Yeah, the skanks swivel in one pice, but the whole side of the bit moves. It' not like the Tom Thumb where its jointed in the middle of the bit, it actually rotates all the way around.

[Peace]

Yes, Katie, having actually seen that bit, I'm a little intimidated by all those moving parts! It looks awfully complicated!

galadriel - I'm going to try your rein suggestion tomorrow morning at my lesson, and I'll let you know how it goes. I'd love to have a way to back up my leg aids that wouldn't involve pulling on his poor mouth. Must a horse know how to neckrein before he can be ridden in a bit with a solid mouthpiece?

Karin - what bit did y'all wind up putting Missy in? No, I don't think Cathy would be fooled by a snaffle with a curb strap attached.;) But don't worry, I'd never put Bootsie in a Tom Thumb. Quanah (not one to suffer in silence) nearly bit my toes off the time I tried direct-reining him in one of those!:eek: :D

[galadriel]

No, heck no! If a horse must be ridden in a curb bit, I'd much prefer to put him in one with a solid mouthpiece.

[KarinUS]

What a funny rule if the horse isn't neck reining!:rolleyes:

Missy seemed happiest in a grazing bit with short shanks. Pretty plain. No moving parts at all with a medium thick upward curved mouth piece.

[Peace]

If a horse must be ridden in a curb bit, I'd much prefer to put him in one with a solid mouthpiece.

galadriel, why is that?

I tried your reining technique with Boots yesterday, and it worked great!:D Did not have to use a direct rein the entire lesson. Although I did have to explain to Cathy what I was doing. Apparently from the ground it looked as though I was crossing my reins - I wasn't, honest!:)

Karin - I'm afraid the reason Boots is sentenced to a curb bit is his habit of bombing off with children in whatever direction seems best to him.:eek: :o He's never done it out on the trail, but will in the ring. It's usually a very short trip, just to the gate or to the center - although it's not unheard of for him to dump the extremely untactful child. He's not a big fan of beginner kids, I think because so many of them have an unfortunate tendency to balance themselves with the reins.

That's why I'm thinking a solid mouthpiece would be better for him - although most of the kids don't want to ride him anymore, so he may have solved his own problem. ;)

[galadriel]

The action of a shanked bit is very different from the action of a snaffle. The more simple it is, the more clear the cues are for the horse. He can feel the movements of the weight of the reins, and the minor movements of the shanks, and they *mean* something. With a broken mouthpiece, the action of the bit is a lot more busy and potentially confusing. With shanks, I like a solid mouthpiece.

[cvb]

Peace - if you need to use a direct rein, could you go "english" and use a english-style curb bit (pelham, kimblewick etc etc)

or would that just confuse life completely ?

[Sterling]

Its been my experience that the myler bits are worth the money...craftsmanship and comfort wise they are great.

However, its always good to try before you buy (if possible).

My personal fav would have to be a cathedral port with a roller (custom made though). It was the perfect bit. I used it on my horse twice prepping for a show-i had immediate collection and breaking at the poll, with perfect balance-and my reins dropped to his knees. *sighs wistfully at the memory* Too bad it was $500 and up for a bit like that.

I never rode my horse in a curb until 1-2 days before a show though-otherwise it was strictly in a snaffle the whole time.
Although the best snaffles I used were custom made, and then for sale to the public for a while, and now I can't find a picture of them anywhere. Go figure. But I found one with the curb mouthpiece that I liked to show in, only it would have a roller, and a totally different shank design. For just training, a long shanked snaffle works well (not to be confused with a tom thumb) a lot of qh people use them.

[Peace]

Since I first posted about this, Boots has had the dentist out, and has not since objected to his argentine snaffle bit on the trail.

In the ring he still pitches fits, but I think this behavior has less to do with his bit than with his being the most ringsour horse in recorded history. ;)

I'm inclined to wait and ride him a few more times on the trail with the argentine snaffle and see how he does. Boots has had a awful lot of changes in his life this year (maybe more than I even know about), so I kind of hate to introduce any more new things to him than are absolutely necessary.:)

But thanks for the replies - I'm always interested in learning more about bits.:cool:

[Katie_85]

Sterling- Noticed your signature. Do you ride Racking horses?

[Sterling]

No- I used to rider 5 gaited saddlebreds...and when I showed, the announcer always says "Rack on" instead of the usual "rack your horses please" Since racking was the most exciting/crowd pleaser :)

[Katie_85]

Ooooh, got it! Our announcers do the same thing: Fast rack please, let's rack em' on! :D

[Cowgirl12]

tom thumbs are one of the worst bits ever, they confuse the horse anything that works like a tom thumb should be trashed unless you want a good horse to be confused and totally unresposive.

[Peace]

I'd never advocate using a Tom Thumb either, unless someone was already using one and not having problems. And y'know, I bet there are some people and horses like that somewhere. ;)

A couple of months after the dentist's visit, I ordered Bram his very own Argentine and put it on my western bridle with the long split reins (his school bridle had short one-piece reins). I'm now riding him western-style with a loose rein, and only "sponge" or "bump" one or both rein(s) if I need something from him I'm not getting with a weight or leg aid.

He's gotten so much more responsive that I'm now having trouble not inadvertently cuing him. :) Y'all should've seen my suprise when I took up "mane and reins" prior to mounting on Saturday, and he started backing up! :p I shall now be refining my mounting technique! :o

[Katie_85]

Glad you're having better luck with that bit! :)

[PridesAngel03]

Most definitely use the myler bit. You can both neck rein and direct rein with this style of bit. A tom thumb is a harsh bit, though it may not appear to be but it is. The tom thumb is NOT a snaffle it IS a curb contrary to popular belief.

The myler bits are very good "friendly" bits to be used on many disciplines.

This is the one we used on our Western show horse Nique. She loved it and responded very well to it. Unfortunately Nique is no longer with us, so my 21 yr old Arab mare will be using it at upcoming shows. She uses her Billy Allen for Lessons and trails, but will be using the myler shown below for shows.

Fiddle, can't remember how to post a pic. :( Go here to see the pic of the myler bit I use.
http://www.ridewithpride.net/FavoriteEquipment.html
HA GOT IT TO SHOW UP! :D
http://www.ridewithpride.net/images/NiquesMylerBit.jpg

Good Luck.