Breed Opinions for Dressage/Eventing

[k9 Equine]

I'll soon be looking for a first horse and would like some opinions on the typical dressage warmblood breeds: Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Trakehner (sp?), Westphalian, and crosses of the these.

I prefer a slightly larger horse - 16.2 hh is ideal - but don't like the long, thin, leggy TB types (no offense to any TB owners, just a personal preference) - though not quite as solid as a draft or Friesian. Ideally something in-between. Color isn't too important but I find myself favoring the dark colours - black, liver chestnut, dark bay, etc. Temperament is of paramount importance - smart, confident and willing, even pushy is okay - but skittish/high strung and flighty is out.

Keeping in mind that I live in the USA and don't own a bank, which breed type in your experience/opinion most closely matches the above criteria?

Thanks!

~ KE

[horse_chestnut]

Dressage...hmmm i dont know a lot about that! but ill try my best! I know that Hanoverians make excellent sports horses in general (theres a previous thread on this!) but I also know from personal experience that they're amazingly friendly too! I know a HannxTB and a Hann and i think that the HannxTB is a lovely way of improving the TBs performance at top level dressage, and making them a tad more "robust" so to speak. *i havent got a grudge against TBs - HONEST :D - theyre lovely!* However Hann's arent much of a Heavy weight - so a typical cross would still be pretty lightweight so to speak. I dont know about in the US, but in the UK pure Hann's come with a very large price label - so it might be wise to look at crosses of any of the breeds u've mentioned! if u wanna have a look - might not be of any help - ill put on some pics of my fave Hann and HannxTB!! lol - just an excuse 2 show em off....

im sure someone else has got some more useful advice!!!

Good luck neway!! :D

[Liz E.]

Whoops, I forgot to mention something.

There are actually three URL's to the same page:

1. http://www.horseclassifieds.com
2. http://www.equine.com
3. http://www.horses-for-sale.net

[Mrs I]

I own a Westphalian X mare and although sometimes me and my trainer think she is a bit too intelligent! she is generally speaking fantastic. I tend to prefer the warmbloods, especially the Westies and Hanno's as they tend to be rounder in build and a bit more compact then the other warmbloods, but they do most definetly come with a large price tag. Saying all this I would never discount a horse because of its breeding/colour as each should be taken on its own merits, also unless you are planning to conquer the world of Grand Prix dressage it is not essential to have a magnificant beast that turns heads to have fun and compete successfully on a local level.

[Liz E.]

How tall are warmbloods, usually?

[horse_chestnut]

not sure but generally 15.2hh/16hh - 17.2hh ish. correct me if im wrong cos i dont really have a clue! lol

[fionahogg]

Well, any horse can do dressage and any horse can event! It all depends on what level you wish to ride to. Obviously if you want a horse that you would like to be really successful with then it would be worthwhile investing in a horse bred specifically for dressage - these tend to be warmbloods. But if you're looking for a horse that you just want to have fun with and compete with at the lower end of the scale then look for something with the conformation of a dressage horse - he shouldn't be too 'heavy' on his forehand because otherwise he will struggle to collect his weight back onto the hind quarters. He should move straight and have good, powerfull hindquarters so he can move with impulsion. If you're looking at buying a horse to train from scratch then make sure that, when he moves, he moves with 'correct' paces - a four-time walk, a good active trot, and a canter that has a definate three-time beat and shows a moment of suspension (although the paces can obviously be improved drastically if the horse has not had any training yet, it helps to start of with the basics correct!). Obviously there are much more specific areas to consider about conformation and these are just general points. The horse should really enjoy the work and it helps if he is a natural show-off. You might find it worthwhile to get into contact with people who breed, train, and sell horses for specific disciplines.
Also remember that no matter how much potential the horse has, the success you will achieve depends largely on the method by which he is trained!
Your description of the horse you would like to find does immediately suggest to me that a warmblood may be the type of horse you are looking for.

Good luck with finding a horse!

Fiona

[k9 Equine]

Thanks for the replies - I kinda prefer the Hannoverians and Trakhners conformation wise.

Now my other dilemma. I have plenty of horse care experience, some ground work experience and am renewing my riding experience. My choices seem to be forking over a bundle (40K-75K) for an experienced dressage prospect or a smaller amount (8-12K) for a "choice" yearling. However, there is the old saw about inexperience needs experience.

Having acknowledged that, my tendency is to go for the yearling - not because of cost (paying for training adds up to the same or more, it's just spread out over time :)) - but because I enjoy working with young animals and prefer it to inheriting someone else's training quirks (been there, done that, don't want to do it again!). At least I'll know where any odd behaviour comes from :D. Bonding and understanding the animal on an intuitive level works best for me as well.

I'm also not in a rush to ride a horse of my own (having learned lots of patience as a parent ;)) and would enjoy the challenges and rewards of working with a youngster. I plan to continue lessons and possibly leasing until the yearling would be ready to back at 4 yrs. or so. In addition, I have access to several outstanding trainers in this area.

So, for the old timers here, what would you recommend?

~ KE

[Edited by K9 Equine on 16th Apr 2001 at 09:48 PM]

[Mrs I]

I have had four youngsters, the first when I was 14. My current horse is nearly 9 and I've had her since she was 2 and although we've had our troubles it has all been worth it and the challenge goes on!!

[fionahogg]

Yes, the obvious 'ideal' would be to have a great deal of knowledge and understanding when working with youngsters. But you also need a good dollop of common sense - experience can be gained with time and effort, common sense is a little harder to aquire! And it sounds like you have plenty of sense, so I would go for the youngster but get as much help as you can - find a really good trainer and enjoy yourself!

Good luck!

Fiona

[liz--y]

my 4yo tbxhann show a great potentail in dressage he was bred to event.

[Somethingroyal]

I love both hann and TB, and "own" both (only one is actually in the barn right now, the other is god knows where on the east coast). But younger horses are great fun to work wiht, and you get to start straight off teaching him your own style of riding. Im not an "old timer" so to speak, but if you have the patience raising a horse from a year old can be VERY rewarding. You end up with a VERY strong bond by the time you back them and start to ride, and the majority of the time they really work hard to please you because you are "mom". I wish I had the time and patince to do that...

[k9 Equine]

Arrggghhhh! The more research I do, the tougher the decision becomes! Sure are a lot of warmblood breeds out there. Questions: Are Danish warmbloods the same as Dutch warmbloods? Where do Belgian and Swedeish fall? Westphalian same as Westfalen? Finding a lot of X-breeding and TB blood in warmbloods. I guess I'll just have to do a lot more shopping than anticipated ;)

Thanks for all the posts folks. There is a nice website: http://www.warmbloods.net for information and forums on warmbloods for anyone who is interested. I especially like the conformation forum - someone posts a picture and others post critiques...very educational. Discovered I'm better at judging horse conformation than I thought!

~ KE

[fionahogg]

If I were you I'd have a look at as many different horses as poss to help you make your decision - you may find it easier to find the exact horse for you than to try to specify the exact breed you want before looking.
I don't think there's much difference between the different warmblood types (they're all great!) but I'm not sure.

[horsemadkid]

Warmblood crosses? Or if you think you're gd enough and don't own a bank, you could maybe get a young Warmblood (or other type of dressage breed). You could school it yourself. About any horse can do dressage and i think the most important thing tt counts is heart not breed.

[k9 Equine]

First - I am not a "breed snob" and know that horses are individuals. Any breed can excel at dressage if they are put together correctly aka have the correct conformation as in FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION, for example Hunters/show jumpers need strong forelegs, dressage horses need stong hindquarters and good flexion. Plus, my favorite school horse is a "warmblood" WelshXBelgian (don't ask :D), 17hh and I just love him!

Second - I am a mature rider. I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any means, but I am returning to riding after years spent on school, career, and family. I am not starting from the beginning, just renewing and refining my skills (and learning to jump) - don't know why, but jumping is not a big thrill to me. My thrill comes from executing a maneuver [from a simple clean corner, a straight line, clean figure eight, or flawless transition] perfectly in tune with the horse.

Also, my kids are getting older with interests of their own. In four to seven years (time frame for backing and schooling in the levels w/a warmblood) the children will be moving on/out and living their own lives so I will have the time to dedicate to schooling and competing. Perfect opportunity to start a youngster. In other words, I have plenty of life experience: I know what I want, where I want to be and how to get there.

Third - I just LOVE the warmbloods. My ideal horse is 16 - 17 hh. I am 5'9" and 150 lbs (more or less ;)) Seriously considering a youngster so breeding and conformation are important - it's a gamble on the mature animal. As with anything, each of us has personal preferences - mine happens to be warmbloods, specifically dark brown/black/bay. There are lots of horses out there and I am trying to narrow the final search - I can only get one :(.

As for differences, they seem to be subtle. Please correct me if I am wrong but this is what I have concluded: Oldenburgs tend to be heavier and may have some "coarse" heads. Holsteiners are beautiful and make excellent jumpers, long legged, but are hard to find; Trakehners are the closest to TB phenotype with refinded heads; Dutch, Swedish and other warmbloods are based on many of the above in varying degrees - jumper or dressage ability by bloodline; Hannoverians combine the best of Trakehner, Holsteiner and TB with an emphasis on a sound temperament. Personal preference - a HANxOLD. Horses are a BIG investment and I've been waiting a lifetime, I would rather spend a little more and be perfectly happy with my choice than pay less and always wonder what if... If that sounds "snobby" so be it.

Again, thanks to everyone for thier opinions! I can't wait to begin the actual process of selecting MY horse. (My but that feels good to "say"!)

~ KE

[floppy]

hehe are you sur eyour kids are going to move out!?or have you decided that between 4 a dn 7 yrs they WILL be moving out ?:D
i think you have pretty much decided to go for a young horse by what i have read!good luck with finding your horse :)

[k9 Equine]

LOL floppy!

I don't know that they'll necessarily move out by 21 - I can hope can't I? ;) I do know they certainly won't need (or want) me arranging their activities anymore! Stay or go (college and/or their own place) after they turn 18 my job is done and it's time for me & hubby to do the things we want...sans children!

~ :D KE

[Kerry's Partner!!]

My experience is they move out -------------and then back in again!!!!! But, they're always a joy. My experience tells me that you never stop being a parent (and that's what my parents said to me too - I didn't believe them at the time). On the horse/rider front, here's a question (and it's definitely not advice since I'm still too green to give any): DRESSAGE is about training the horse (I think). So, for those able to to take on such a task is it more challenging to train a youngster or "re-train" an eleven year old?

[floppy]

*cough* im a classic example of 'children moving out...and then back in again' hehe i moved out for 2 yrs and then thougt i would grace my parents with my presence again..
hehe
hmm...i would think that maybe to re-train a horse is more of a challenge!? i know it is in my case.

[k9 Equine]

Hunter - I would have to agree. An older horse is harder to retrain since you first have to figure out what the problem is, how it started and how to fix it. With a youngster, you follow your basics and fix your mistakes as you go. LOTS of patience is required in either case.

As for TBs, I don't dislike them, they are wonderful animals, but their fine boned legs (particularly if they come off the track) need lots of TLC and tend to be more susceptible to tendon probs. I'm not a lightweight rider either :) The long limbed, long necked, high withers are just not ascthetically pleasing to me - ditto the disproportional "big butts" of the QH - not an insult, just a personal preference - and there are exceptions, Secretariat was a beautiful specimen, no matter what his breed, and Point Given is pretty nice too. I certainly wouldn't turn my nose up at a nice WBxTB.

As for the time involved, I need it to get into better physical shape before attempting the lower levels never mind the upper ones. Realistically, I dont' expect to do PSG level, much less FEI or Olympic :eek:, so I'm not too worried, but thanks for the vote of confidence ;) I want to do the work for ME, not a judge.

Sandra - literally, dressage is schooling...and so, yes, it is training of the horse. However, it is also training of the rider, with the ultimate goal of creating a united whole - one mind, one body - out of two beings, the horse and rider. Think centaur.

~ KE

[Kerry's Partner!!]

K9 equine, I agree about dressage being training of the horse and rider. My middle-aged mare and late middle-aged me still don't fit the pattern 'though. I think we understand each other well enough to have reached one mind one body. However, we definitely don't look like Heather riding Millie for example so we don't look like "dressage"....but our aim is to approach that some day (older woman with Welsh cob)!!!. The one thing we have in common is that I cannot look into her past to find out what went right or wrong for her but when you think about it she cannot know what has gone right or wrong for me either. I used to worry all the time about not knowing her past and when I was scared by her behaviour even create scenarios to explain away why she was being so awkward. On sound advice from Mike Peace I try not to do that now and instead try to focus on creating our future together. I have help with the ridden aspect of schooling - for both of us - but our anchor is the relationship and I am totally convinced that without Mike's intervention in the first place, then the ongoing relationship development, she would never have switched on again to become willing to learn and please.

[JumperGirl]

Personally, I LOVE hanoverians! I want to get one eventually. They are great sport horses, they can jump, do dressage. I know a Hano gelding, and he is such a sweetie, great disposition. But, it totally depends on the individual horse.

getting a yearling or something would sure be an adventure, but very rewarding, you dont have to worry about fixing someone elses training mistakes, like you said, youll be fixing your own, lol.

WEll, that wasnt much help, but,

GOOD LUCK, and keep us posted on horse searching.!