Alot of interest for this forum earlier!

[Outrider]

Ok, gang, where's all those folks that had a lot of western type questions that wanted a western forum that some of us can help you with? Be glad to answer any questions I can, and there are a few more western riders in here that will add their spurs to the brand too! So get'em going and Happy Trails!

[JackiAH]

Ok..

1st question: When I ride Pally, I sometimes ride western because he goes just a tad (lol canter=gallop to him) fast, and I like to start his canter off holding the horn, then I let go as soon as I get my (and his) balance right. Now, how do I keep my right hand (that is not holding the reins) from staying too stiff? I end up looking hilarious and my arm goes straight out. Is it ok to hold on to the end-ish part of the reins with my right hand while I hold the reins in which I guide the horse with in my left? Can I do this in a show or is it considered against the rules?

I've spent a few minutes each lessons gripping onto the material in my riding pants to keep my hand down! Pleeeeease help!!

[horselover]

I am going to butt in and say what i think, partly becaus ei want to see if I am right, and I know Outrider will correct me if I am wrong.

Ok, there are 2 styles of western riding- California and the other one who's name I can't remember- dang! Anyway, in one, you hold your end of your reins in your hand, like you were saying. In the other, you leave our hand on you thigh.

Outrider- am I right???? I only vaugley remember this from a few years back, so I could be wrong.

[horselover]

The other style is called Texan, and I am willing to bet that Outrider knew that one! :)

The difference is that California is more collected, I think, like the horse works in a more collected outline than in Texan. And I didn't say it before, but it this style that has you hold the end of the reins in your other hand.

Texan style has the horse work in a more relaxed outline, the head is down further. And this is where you place your hand on your thigh or I think you can also hold it bent and close to your chest.

Ok, am I right Outrider, or am I remebering this stuff all wrong? I read an article on it as some point, but I can't find it yet.

[FRED]

Hi Outrider, we have been awaiting your return, don't you think that Mike has done a great job with the message board.
At the moment we have a terrible virus called Foot and Mouth Disease,I guess you know about it working with cattle driving, it has ment that riders have been limited
to what they can do,some riding centres are on their knees as they are in infected areas, where I live you are not allowed to ride in the big outdoors, so its just in the menage for me at present.
Here are few starter questions

1st: the horse,can a horse that has been riden only English
style be used to learn Western riding

2nd :Can you learn Western Style on a English sadle
our riding centre does have a western sadle and the owner can ride Western,but she has more than enough on her plate
with 25 horses and staff and F&M without me putting extra
work on her shoulders,so forgive any daft questions.

3rd :What would your advise be so that we would not get confused when 1st starting :ie:concentrate on the holding of the reins and steering,
or learning the aids {if different}
as you can imagine, for those of us who are new to horses and riding, it could get confusing learning both styles of riding at once, what do you think.
My instructor has mentioned about taking a BHS exam,I forget what she called it, but its only to do with beginers,
and to be honest I'm not in no hurry for any qualifications,
without wishing to seem blas'e about horses and learning to ride,its my ambition to learn jumping as well,but we are a while from that.
By the the way, how is Bob the wonder lust,{hope I got his name right}glad to see your back and hope your work all went well,we could do with a bit of desert weather here,if
we are to beleive that hot weather kills of Foot & Mouth,
best wishes from Fred.

[Outrider]

Great to see an interest in Western riding and work. I will answer as best I can, and I know there are other western riders out there who can answer these kinds of questions too, so feel free and join in or even disagree with me!

Jacki, as for keeping your balance and not "flying" with outstretched arms and elbows, which is a common problem, but I recommend sitting deeper in the saddle with a more relaxed back. Not stiff. Sit straight and don't lean to one side or the other. Move with your horse's movements. Feel him in your legs and body. Horselover has the right of it with the hand usage in the different techniques. Texas style is a more relaxed mode with the hand on the thigh(usually the right) while the left holds the reins. The other way, well, what can you say about California? lol I haven't seen any western pleasure shows that allow you to hold the end of the reins like that. Every one that I have watched or been in require the right hand on the thigh.

Now for Fred. Any horse can be taught to work english or western, regardless of what they have been trained to do originally. The hitch in the get along however, is that the riding is significantly different, styles wise as is the way you sit your seat in the gaits and hold the reins. The biggest difference is that in western riding, the horse is usually neck reined with one hand, while in english they are directional reined. A horse that has been trained in this way will not neck rein without training. I always recomomend that if you want to do both in a show, have two separate horses.

Can you learn western style in an english saddle. I suppose you could, but depending on what you want to do, it would be difficult to really get your seat right and the amount of contact you have with the horse is different in each type of saddle. If you want to ride western, use a western saddle. There are definite seat differences in the differnt gaits as well.

Don't try to learn both styles of riding at the same time. You will only confuse yourself, not to mention the horse if you use the same one for both. As for reining or aids, go in a logical progression. That is, learn to communicate with your horse with the reins first, and then advance to the leg aids. In time, you will use both in conjunction with each other. Take your time and learn each step well before moving on to the next step.

And it's Bob the Wonder BEAST! lol And he is doing well. Wasn't taken care of as good as I would have liked, and he has dropped a little weight, but he is ok. I'm back now and no one can take care of your horse as well as you can.

I hope I have answered these Q's to y'alls satisfaction. Again, all you other western riders, feel free to throw your hat in the ring too. Happy Trails!

[horselover]

I know that I have watched a couple shows at the NYState Fair where the riders are holding the end of the reins, and some hold their arm bent and against their chest. I have a friend who rides this way, and at the last show she was at, she got a couple blues. SO I guess it kinda depends on where you are and the judges. I personally was atught to rest my right hand on my thigh, like you said. That's the most comfortable for me.

Jacki- there's nothing wrong with holding onto you pants :p for a few minutes of your lesson just to get used to the new feel. Yu have just started western riding, right? It will take awhile to get used to the relaxed style- give it time.

All this talk about western riding makes me wnat to go! I haven't ridden western in a couple months, and now I am really in the mood too!!! lol

[kelsey]

Hey guys, I have been riding in a sort of Western/English hybrid style, the reason being that I didn't ride for a long time (used to ride English), then I smashed up my leg in an auto accident and wanted to start off in a more secure saddle.

Anyway, my instructor never taught me neck reining as I always intended to go back to English eventually. So, I use a Western bridle with the reins attached to the bit part of the curb, however I use less contact than I would normally. Here (I am in Canada) a lot of people ride this way, in fact they seem to neck rein only for showing.

The horses I ride seem okay with it, they go along nicely balanced with ears forward, just in a lower frame than an English horse would.

I don't find the seat a lot different from when I rode English, except that its a lot easier to keep your stirrups. In fact, I think that I will stick to Western for hacking esp as there is more room to attach the bag with snacks!

I am finding that a lot of people here, esp adults, are starting with Western, its a lot less stressful, then when you are comfortable with that you can switch over (if you still want to).

Plus, the horses tend to be smaller so its not such a shock the first time you sit on one.

[Anne]

Hello ... I'm very interested in Western riding, but when I mentioned this at the yard, the YM almost blew a gasket! He said that, the western saddle and blanket are tremendously heavy and unsuitable for TBs (which mine is), the bit is brutal, and training is very damaging to the hocks! To be honest, he always seems to have an adverse reaction to anything anyone talks about that isn't of particular interest to him, and he is steeped in BHS tradition which is very hard to get through sometimes, if you disagree with any of his views. He did say that he had tried Western, but found that he was "thrown" forward, and it was difficult to stop his legs from sliding forwards also! He does seem to lean forward anyway when he is riding, but he insists this is the correct way, as it is "over the centre of the horse's own body balance".

I did add that I hadn't intended to ride my own horse Western style, but wanted to go down to one of the Western schools (think one in Surrey, where I live)but he was still against this style. I actually said that maybe because he was trained and has been riding Classical for so many years, this was the reason he found it so uncomfortable, and maybe someone like me would find it easier, because Im not as experienced, and therefore perhaps more adaptable to a different style? Ooops! Not the right thing to say ... me and my big mouth ...!

Whadya think folks, especially you Westerners?

Anne

[horselover]

It most certainly is NOT like that AT ALL! And I am saying this as a westren & english rider. First of all, the leg position in western is differnt than hunt seat- you don't sit the same way, so don't even try to. Your leg is further forward in western b/c they need to be able to be braced more for chasing the cows. I have an awful time keeping y leg back still when I ride english b/c I learned western and rode that way for years, and I am used to keeping my leg more forward, so i am sure he found this just as uncomfortable and off-balancing as I did when I switched over. It's just different, that's all.

As for the bits- oh, please. I have seen soem horrible english ones as well as horrible western ones. That's just ridiculous. Most western horses are ridden in some type of snaffle, at least the ones that I have ridden.

You want to talk about damaging to the hocks? Ask him about jumping. That is one of the most strenuous activities you can do with a horse, and I have known 2 professional jumping horses who have had serious problems and had to be retired- one had problems with his hocks. Western training and riding is no more strenuous than english. And if all you do is hack, it's alot less strenuous., in my oinion.

TBs can certainly be ridden in a western saddle. Geeze, it's not as if their body wil break in half. Not all western saddles are as heavy as people think. Sure, you have your 60-70 pound saddles- I have ridden in them- but you can also get a lighter western saddle, more around 20-30.

Don't mean to sound rude- and keep in mind that I ride english- but your instructor's comments are the typical english snob's remarks. It just comes from being extremally narrow-minded and unwilling to tyr anything new. One reason he probably didn't like it was that it made him feel uncomfrtable, which made him feel as if he wasn't good at it. I am sure this was disconcerting for someone who thnk s tey are a good rider.

I recommend trying it- it's a great way to ride, and it's different than what you are used to. Alot of people on this board have expressed interest in learning westren, and I recommend it.

As a final not about training, I think that it is much better and safer to start off a horse in a western saddle, then once they are trained, switch to an english.

[kelsey]

Horselover is 100% correct! The more I am learning about Western riding, the more I am liking it! The new coach that I just started with is an awesome rider AND she rides both dressage and Western. (She believes that any good riding horse should be able to do a variety of things, including western, basic dressage and jumping.) If you watch her ride, you will see that she rides using mainly body weight, and her position is very "classical" with the straight line right down through her heel. I just received my copy of Enlightened Equitation and was struck by the similarities between what Heather is saying and what she tells me!

As for the saddle, yes, it is usually heavier, however the difference is really negligible when you think of the rider's body weight which could be bouncing all over the horse's back. That seems to be a lot worse to me!

I used to be one of the English snobs and I could kick myself now because, to tell you the truth, I find Western more relaxing and its actually a nice change from English sometimes.

I think the best thing for you to do would be to try it for yourself and see what you think! I bet you will have a lot of fun!

[Outrider]

When I first found this board, I was afraid I would be ostrasized from all the English riders and wouldn't have a place here. How wrong I was, and how glad I am that I gave the board a chance. Yes, there are many differences in western riding, but there are many similarities in basic horsemanship and training.

I am sorry you met with so much resistance from your YM. That is exactly the kind of response I thought I would get here on this board, but I have never gotten that kind of attitude. I am afraid your YM is a bit close minded and it may be one of those British/American conflicts that some, even Americans, just can't seem to get over. Oh well.

Yes, the saddle is heavier. But there is more hardware and leather to it. It is also a very secure seat and gives a beginning rider more confidence to learn to ride western first. You have a horn to hang onto if needed and you don't loose your stirrups. It doesn't hurt the horse. Think of all the weight the mediaval horses had to carry: armored men, weapons, shields, supplies, tack, barding which was sometimes iron too, etc. And the War Horse was not the huge beast that myth and movies portray them as. They really were not a whole lot bigger than modern horses. And there are synthetic saddles made that are even lighter than some english saddles and are used for endurance riding.

Brutal bits? A hackamore has no bit. There are severe bits in both styles, and the "brutality" comes from the rider's use and not the bit itself.

If he was "thrown forward" in a western saddle, it is because he was trying to ride it with an english seat. You have to sit deeper in a wester saddle with your feet more forward. He just didn't have someone who knew what to tell him to do, so he assumed he was doing it right. But I am sure we will never convince him of that. :)

Ah, if we were all alike, the world would be a boring place, now wouldn't it? Try western riding. Try it on your horse. You may just find you like it. I have done both. I prefer western...some prefer english. To each his/her own I say. Happy Trails!

[FRED]

Best of luck Tim, I will keep checking back.
Fred.

[Outrider]

Thanks for the luck! What are you checking for? If it the western pages, they will be a separate area like the pages that Heather and Mike have written. I am gathering a team of western folks to help with the articles as we speak. Anything you would like to see? The list of articles so far are shown in the general area under the Calling All Western Riders thread. Have you won the lottery yet so you can send me a ticket to Australia? lol :)Happy Trails!

[Anne]

Thanks Outrider and everyone who posted replies ... 'tis as me thought ... typical, closed-minded attitude to anything outside the "norm" ... ! Anyway, I'm definitely going to try Western this Summer ... I think it looks great fun, and I'm going to dig out my sexy checked shirt ... !

Incidentally, is there anyone who has tried the school in the South East and can give me a telephone number?

Thanks again .... :) :) :)

Anne

[Outrider]

If you're going to wear a sexy checkered shirt, I'll give you MY number! Happy Trails!:)

[floppy]

hehehehe

if people want my comparison to english and western riding i would say western is more relaxing :)
although i have been kinda riding western since decemeber and had no dressage lessons and also been doing alot ot tolting on icelandic ponies i went to my dreesage palce eysterdy and rod emy cousins hrose and everyone there told me i rdie a much much better than before...before i rode good and now im liek a superstar :D

[Nancy]

Kelsey, I too was taught a kind of hybrid riding style. The quarter/arab mix that I trail ride on is a very adaptable animal. The lady that owns him is in her 70's and rides like the wind at top speed using neck reining and a small western saddle. I was taught two handed direct reining by one friend because that is what she does in her English lessons. I use real soft hands and a big western saddle. When I do hold the reins in one hand and neck rein, I hold them in my right hand and put my left on my left leg. Only because I am right handed and it seemed easier to control when I was first learning to ride. And also, I would never be coordinated enough or brave enough to calf rope or things like that, so I don't need a free right hand! Switching from one style to the other, even in midride, never seems to bother the horse. Both of us riders use the same bridle with a snaffle bit.

We are only trail riding ,so as long as the horses are content and not showing signs of annoyance such as head swinging, ear pinning or bucking we ride in whatever style suits the mood of the day. If we were in shows, it would be a whole other story. I don't know much about riding in an English saddle, as I only took ten lessons before falling down my stairs and breaking my leg. I do know that it was not harder to stay in the small saddle because I had already ridden for years in a western saddle and had a pretty good seat. It was harder on my leg muscles because we had to do so much posting and trotting that I was not used to. I was also more nervous in the indoor English ring than out on the trail. That suprised the instructor. I was not used to the mirrors on the side wall or the small space and different lessons going on at one time. On the trail I had more confidence in my ability to sit a spook or have room to manuever out of trouble. The funny thing was, most of the people taking indoor lessons were terrified of the trail or outside ring. A guess it all boils down to what you are used to.

[MadWoman]

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this forum, although I've only done a small amount of (very enjoyable) Western riding myself (my horse is English trained and I cannot afford a third saddle!). There is one thing, though, that I must take issue with. Outrider above states that "The biggest difference is that in western riding, the horse is usually neck reined with one hand, while in english they are directional reined". This may be true for very new riders, but there is a strong tradition of using the indirect rein in English riding. Just think of cavalry using swords in their right hands, tentpegging or even opening a gate. All of these require precise control of the horse with one hand on the reins. All horses are taught to move away from pressure, and whether they are English or Western, a well-schooled horse will move away from pressure on the neck from the rein. The main difference is that in English neck-reining contact is maintained.

I have a totally English trained horse, yet spend 90% of my time riding with one hand, and this includes tentpegging, battle re-enactment, lateral work and small jumps. He will move away from pressure to the extent that I can do lateral work in just a headcollar or a simple rope looped around his neck.

Please, keep up the good work with Western riding, but be aware that there is a strong, if slightly different, tradition of neck-reining in English riding.

I do hope I haven't offended anyone, I simply want to inform!

[Outrider]

No offense taken here! I appreciate the information! What I was basing my idea of directional reining in English riding on was how I see riders in equitation shows, jumping and other competitions. I have no doubt that y'all can ride with one hand, I have just never seen it in the english competitions I have ever watched. Guess that's a bit of stereotyping on my part! Happy Trails!

[plusone]

bare in mind that western saddles are very big and actually spread the rider's weight much better than English saddles.

light western saddles are usually of low quality, they should weigh at least 12 kilograms (~26 pounds).

[Silvia]

oh wow! How DO you get them up on your horses!

[horselover]

Very carefully! :) Seriously, it takes alot of muscle, especially when you are riding a tall horse. Just like any saddle, you don't want to plop it down on the horse's back, but you want to set it down gently.

When I rode western with my old instructor, before I switched over to English with him, he had me ride in his western saddle. very comfortable- much more than the stable's saddles (which is why he let me use it). But it weighed 40 pounds!!!! Which is, I think, around 20-22 kilograms. And Rio, the horse I was riding, is quite tall. Trent really had a chance to laugh at me when I was trying to get that stupid saddle on Rio!!

The way I do it, if it's a heavy saddle, is stand facing the horse's butt, and then swing the saddle up and over, setting it down gently. Once you get used to it, it's no biggie. But I am sure that going from english to western would make it difficult. To me, the english saddles are like feathers!

[floppy]

i know what you eman..i went from using a light wintec english saddle to using a heavy western saddle..luckily im 5'7 and my horse is 145cm so it isnt too ahrd to put the western saddle on the horse..and the tack room is spitting distance form my horses stable..however they just re-built th ebarn and the new tack room is upstairs...so im thinking of askign them to put a pully system in so i can lower th western saddle down to my horse because they are heavy and to tackle stairs too with the stirrups or hte girth flooping off the sadlde could cost me my life!:eek:

[Outrider]

I knew an old man here in Texas who recently died at the age of 78. Up until his death he continued to ride. He couldn't lift his saddle, but he tied the horn to a rope which he threw over a tree limb at his home. He would just walk the horse up to the loop, put it around the horn, undo the girth and walk the horse out from under it. When he wanted to tack up, he did the opposite! He would back the horse under the saddle and then until the loop from the horn and cinch up. Worked for him every time! Happy Trails!

[Epona UK]

I recently sold my beloved "Eamors" saddle as I have a back problem and a tall horse, not a good combination. I wanted a lightweight saddle, but it had to look good. After some searching I found one, Circle Y make one called a Flex Lite, very snazzy, weighs in at about 25lbs. It also has a layer of neoprene sandwiched between the saddle and fleece, which means that it conforms to the horses back slightly. And no, I'm not an Agent for Circle Y, nor do I own a tack shop !!

[Tammy]

The reason I "went English" when I bought my mare is that I have tendonitis in my right arm and could not lift the heavy western saddle onto the horse's back. No regrets, though, I think english riding has made me a better rider......western style is much much more forgiving.

[Outrider]

Tammy, you can get synthetic western saddles that are high in quality and weigh about as much as an english saddle if you ever want to "come back to the fold"! :) Happy Trails!

[horselover]

What a great idea that man had! Who says you have to stop riding just b/c of physical difficulties!? Horse crazy people always find a way, and a number of people on this board are also proof of that.

[Outrider]

That's a fact. He was a grand old man and a wealth of information. They say the day before he died, he rode one last time. He was truly an inspiration to all of us around here. How are your articles coming by the way? Happy Trails!

[Tammy]

Hi Outrider!

I would like to get one of those sythetic western saddles for trail riding in our beautiful Cascade Mt. foothills......first, I have to get a horse trailer...second, I have to learn to back up with it attached...very scary!!!!!

[Outrider]

You want to get the trailer BEFORE you get the saddle? lol You can't saddle a horse with it! Just get your saddle and ride to the Cascades. The weight difference will be ok for the distance! :) Happy Trails!

[horselover]

Hey, sorry I haven't gotten back to you about my articles. Finals week was... well, it wasn't fun! ANd it completely exhausted me!

But i have started thinking about them and will get to work on them right way. Just to make sure, which one do you want first, and how long should it be?

[Outrider]

I have you down for Western vs English Tack and Basic Western/English Differences. Actually they could go pretty close together and come to me at the same time if possible, as they are one right after the other in the order. The length is not as important as the style. Short, informative paragraphs with pictures. I don't think length matters as long as you cover the subjects thoroughly. Looking forward to them! Congrats on finals being over. I know you are relieved. How'd you do? All As?

[horselover]

Lol. Very funny about the all A's!!! What a horrible semester I have had! And my mom was sick last week while my dad was away, so I had to take her to the hospital, doctor's, stay up late, take care of her and my brohter and the house, and that pretty much shot my study time! :) But at leats it is over, and there is only one class that I am worried about. All my others went fine, and I know for sure that I got an A on my Physics final.

I will get started on those articles now. I'll send you soemthing as soon a s I get the first dratf done and you can let me know what you think.

[Tammy]

Outrider

Already got a lightweight fancy schmancy english saddle but....ride to the foothills??!! Would take me days by the time we stop to investigate all the scaries! Besides, once there I may as well head into Seattle to see the Mariners whoop on those Texas Rangers!!

[Outrider]

You'd best take that deep seat cause I know you are already having that far away look if you think the Mariners will whup the Rangers! :) How can anyone underwater possibly beat a hot team from Texas in any sport? lol And just because you have that expensive leather napkin doesn't mean you have a saddle! :) Happy Trails!

[Outrider]

Yours are the first ones in the chute for the debut of the new western section. I still need a pic of you too. I can't remember if you sent a bio but I think you did. Talk to you soon!

[Tammy]

Good thing you got that saddle horn to hang on to.....you're in for a rough ride with those Rangers (17 games back
HEHEHE) Me, I'm floating on air with my Mariners and nice light seat!

[Outrider]

I'm sorry you are flying! With just a piece of leather to sit on, it doesn't surprise me that you are flying right OUT of that light seat! :) Hope your own seat is padded cause remember, its the sudden stop at the end that will get'cha! Happy Trails!

[Tammy]

Amazing the things a converted western rider can do with an elegant little piece of leather! You should see our sliding stops....a thing of beauty. I converted a gorgeous foundation bred QH mare from a reining prospect to a dressage horse. Well, we are working towards that goal, anyway!

We herd cows and chase coyotes in our fancy gear, too!

[Outrider]

Now that's a rodeo I'd like to see! You must have some velcro on that leather napkin to keep you from sliding out from the sliding stop! No wonder the coyotes and cattle run from you! The horse is sending you first! Happy Trails!

[Tammy]

Where did you form the perception that english riders have difficulty staying in the saddle? Quite the contrary, cowboy! No safety belt (saddle horn) neccesitates a good seat.

Maybe your ten-gallon hat is a little too tight? LOL

[floppy]

hehehehe

[Outrider]

Well, now, I'll admit I ahve srewed my hat down a little tight a time or two, and I will also admit that I broke horses in Saudi Arabia with English saddles(much to my horror!) and I stayed with it for the most part. But give me that deep seat, high cantle and pommel that my old heavy western saddle has ANY day over yours! Except for the Aussie stock saddle. I like riding those, at least the ones with a horn! We can agree to disagree and keep it all in fun! That's one thing I have liked about this board...how everyone has accepted this old cowboy! Even You! :) But I'll still take a good western over a leather napkin in a storm any day of the week! Happy Trails Tammy!

[Outrider]

And, oh by the way, I'll be there to catch you by the second bounce too! I also used to be a rodeo clown!

[Tammy]

Riding in a big ol' western saddle is kind of like sinking into a soft leather recliner....aaaahhhh.

Keep ridin' and yakkin' Outrider, we all adore you!

(rodeo clowns are insane. bulls are mean. and big.)

[Outrider]

You bet it is! And I do love my recliner at home, so I ought to have one on the back of my horse! I just settle back in that deep seat, with that far away look, and then hit the dirt when Bob the WonderBeast decides he doesn't want to play any more! This has been fun Tammy! You're not bad for an english riding gal! Now they call western female riders, cowgirls. What do they call English female riders? Besides with cat calls that is!

[FRED]

Hi Tim, today I hear on the radio that rodeo is the most dangerous sport in the world.They listed the injurys riders get,yikes!!! It is painfull just to listen.I will spare all from blushing with the details :o
Now as you know I want to start western one day, but are those sadles some call couches really that kind to male's.
I'm more than happy with the saddles our centre use.They look nothing like napkins :D
best regards from Fred

[Tammy]

Or horsewoman. Who on earth would want to be referred to as "cow"??!!

What is your opinion on the "show lope" that is so favored in western pleasure these days? When I first saw it I thought the poor horse was lame. What purpose does this exaggeratedly slow gait serve? And with it the unnaturally low head carriage with the nose tucked in towards the chest?

Thought you might be interested to know my mare is learning neck reining. I use it to direct her around her backquarters for a turn on the haunches, although I have a two handed rein contact instead of one hand. Horses are capable of knowing both english and western techniques...they are not really that different. I don't know about anyone else, but my two-handed hold of reins does not mean I "plow rein". I simply raise one hand about one inch when turning or bending...no backward pressure. Most aids are leg and weight, just like western.

Perhaps Bob the WonderBeast is fed up with that two ton saddle...

[Outrider]

Hi Fred!

When I say(jokingly) a leather napkin, it just looks like someone draped a napkin over the horse's back instead of the diner plate of a western saddle! :)lol And yep, I don't doubt that rodeo is the most dangerous sport. At least the rough stock events of saddle bronc, bareback and bull riding. But of those, you have more injuries and deaths in bull riding. I have known some good cowboys that were killed riding bulls. Clowns too. In rodeo, its not a matter of IF you get hurt, but WHEN and HOW BAD!

Tammy, personally, I have never cared for the slow lope and low head carriage in the western pleasure classes and for that reason among others, I don't show. A lot of western riders feel the same way, but it is what the judges want to see for some reason. I agree that it isn't a natural gait nor head carriage. In my opinion, if you want to judge western pleasure you should do it with more natural movements. I like a horse that carries a higher head and can move out at a canter or lope when I ask him to. If I wanted to go slower, I would do a trot. Bob has three speeds of trot. And yes, he might be tired of my big old(about 25 years old) western saddle, but I have also ridden him in a McClellan and an Austrailian stock saddle and he still bucks! Just his way of showing the boss who is in charge I guess, but I wouldn't have him any other way! When he works good, he is a great ride. When he bucks, he bucks hard but not long. Just a "try" to keep me on my toes and to let me know that if he really WANTED to get rid of me, he could! Happy Trails!

[Peace]

Outrider, I agree completely about not liking the low head carriage and other unnatural postures and gaits that seem to be in fashion right now. I've also heard nasty things about how some "trainers" encourage that low head carriage.

I had a few Western lessons to start, but I was unlucky in that most of the Western barns I visited were using some pretty unkind methods on both horses and students. When I found the right barn for me, they only taught English, so that's what I learned. Then, unfortunately, I was sidelined by a car accident and resulting back problems.

Nine months carrying a backpack full of heavy law books hasn't helped my back at all! Now that summer's here, and I'm ready to ride again, I'm considering giving western another try, because I think it may be easier on my lower back. A new barn has opened near me that teaches both disciplines, and they seem to be a pretty good group. What do you folks who ride in both disciplines think? Does a western saddle decrease the stress on the rider's lower
back? While sitting in it, I mean, not while lifting it! :)

[Edited by Peace on 27th May 2001 at 01:55 AM]

[Epona UK]

Hi Peace,
my back problem (Scoliosis) was the reason I started using a Western Saddle in the first place. I found it a lot easier on the lower back. I have also just discovered a really nice lightweight saddle by Circle Y called a Flex Lite. Take it slowly, and don't try to do too much too soon. Try to find a horse with nice soft paces to ride, those with rough paces really hurt !! Good luck.

[horselover]

I think that western is much more forgiving on a bad back except that I like posting when I have a horse with a difficult trot. I have a bad back too- I am actually going to a special doctor to get it checked out b/c it has been really hurting lately. Anyway, I ride English mostly, but I found out that English is much less comfortable if you have back and knee problems, which I do. But if you want to jump, then what can you do? As they say, no pain, no gain. I think that has become my riding motto lately!

[FRED]

Hi Outrider, could you help on this question about bad backs
and western riding, is western riding easier on your back.
I have enjoyed riding English, at 1st I thought I would never stay on the sadle, but time has proved me wrong. Lately I have been suffering back problems due to my type of work. Any ideas, I have seen a chiropractor,he smiled and shook his head when I said I will not give up riding for the time being.I dont think riding has made my back any worse.
Fred

[Epona UK]

Hi Fred,
aha another Brit ! This time last year I went on a pain management course, found it very good indeed, I also have a Pro Choice back support for those days that aren't so good.

[FRED]

Thanks for that advice, maybe a back support is the answer,
I would not wear jodphurs when I 1st started :o , my trainer politely kept saying, you will communicate much better with a horse wearing better leggings, she was right
:D bless her, now I need some chaffs.
I visited some western riding web sites,they all wear jeans.
PS:Outrider,I looked at a web site by a guy named Ray Hunt
there are some video clips of western riding, but the quality on my computer was not so good,I could not make out what was happening.The GOOD news is that our riding centre has some horses trained for both western and english,the owner gave me a quick demo and I was very impresed by her western riding skills.Soon I will make the decision on what will suit me best, maybe both styles will suit me,I wish I knew,I expect this dilema has faced many.
There was a quote on one web site:
Sometimes the slower you go,the faster you learn.
thats food for thought don't you think.
Fred.

[Nancy]

Two of my riding partners have had severe back problems. Both were to the point where they could not walk, sit, stand, or get in and out of a car, much less ride. Both went on a serious program of trying to heal. Excercise, rest, chiropractic treatments, massage therapy, etc. One man is a doctor, the other an engineer so they both put alot of study and thought into their course of treatment. One man healed without surgery, the other opted for surgery after a year of trying other options. Both ride western in heavy saddles almost every week. The fellow without the surgery does everything out on the trail. The man that had the operation can only do a walk on most days. Trot, canter and gallup are out on most rides. On days when my legs function, I will keep up with the fast ride and on other days I make believe I am keeping my other friend company on the slow ride! We all do what we can. Everyone is different and every situation must be taken one day at a time. I think the main thing is to trust the horse no matter what type of saddle you ride in.
Happy trails to all.

[Epona UK]

Hi Fred,
go with what you feel most comfortable with, Western suits me down to the ground because of the softer paces, position of the stirrup, leg length etc.I was lucky enough to see Ray Hunt when he was over here a few years ago, he did a 2 day clinic for us at Moreton Morrell Agricultural College, not a million miles away from you. He was amazing.
I decided against the surgery thing, didn't fancy walking round like a mobile scaffold, and i also realised that it would probably mean that i wouldn't be able to ride, as I'm not quite ready to hang up my boots just yet i opted for facet joint nerve blocks. The result has been amazing, I feel like a new person.

[Tammy]

Fred, I think the effect of riding style depends on the type of back injury you have. My doctor frowned heavily until I explained I ride english and post the trot. I do sitting trot but only at a slow jog and it still bothers me somewhat. No dressage competitions for me!

I would only ride western on a horse with a smooth trot and then only if the saddle had some padding in the seat. I wonder if Heather could fit her seat saver to a western saddle??
Some western saddles are softer than others.... Also, try to find a western saddle that does not have a large slope up to the saddle horn. That makes you sit too far back and could be most uncomfortable for men.....
Maybe Outrider has an opinion on this?

You can ride western in jeans without chaps but make sure the jeans have no large seam on the inside. Here in the US most cowboys wear Wranglers jeans because they are seamed for riding.

[Outrider]

Hi Fred! I am not so sure that western riding is any better for the back than english. One problem that I can see with a bad back is the weight of many western saddles unless you get a synthetic one, which are good saddles by the way. I think any exercies that you can do that will strengthen the lower back would be of benifit. I have a bad back as well, but riding doesn't seem to affect it one way or the other thank God! And my western saddle is heavy! I will say that I have ridden both ways, though not extensively english. But when I did, I sat so straight in the saddle that it did give me a backache. I don't sit as straight in a western rig, but then I don't show either. You have to sit straighter when you show.

As for the scooped seat, that is a cutting rig I would think, designed for you to seat deeper in the saddle if you ride a cutting horse. If you don't sit deeply, you won't sit there long on a good cutter! Different western saddles are made for different reasons. If you are thinking of a western saddle, look for a pleasure saddle unless you are going into something special like cutting or reining.

Happy Trails!

[floppy]

i read an article last week that says icelandic horses make a good horse for people with back problems. and i can believe it too..i rode this littl eoen he other day with the smoothest tolt and used a wintec saddle and it was such a light easy ride...

[FRED]

Hi all, thanks for all your suggestions and advice. I guess you all know that you can't really go with the horse at quicker paces when you have a bad bcak .Its the old story, I try too hard and just make things worse,instead of relaxing. I'm learning, we all are :D
I need to get some advice about looking after my back,and do some sensible exercises, it looks like I have just joined the club, good luck to you all and your backs. When you think you are doing so well and suddenly a bad back gets in the way,YUK. It is wonderfull to be able to have complete trust in a horse, and wonderfull when you know the horse trusts you,those eyes and ears tell it all.
I will let you know when I start some western training and my verdict on the sadle, thanks for the tips.
Hi floppy,I wonder if at 6'2" I may be too tall to try a icelandic,I haven't seen the one on Cannock Chase return yet,
maybe they got even smoother and quieter :D, they can be ghost like {and show off's, in a nice way of course }
Fred

[floppy]

i dunno fred, icelandics can coem as big as 145cms...but saying that the one i rode the other day was 130(?) and im 5'7. she is a tiny horse but adorable...icelandics can caryr quite a bit of weight easily...hmm ask wally or frances :D
heh egood luck with the western saddle when you get to try it..i thought they were horible the first couple of tiem si used it (mainly coz it gave me saddle sore, it not as comfy as the wintec i was using) btu now i live in it :)

[Peace]

Thanks everybody for the input and advice. I think the position a western saddle makes possible (sitting vs the "kneeling" feel of an english saddle) might be easier on my back. I'm not too sure about sitting a trot though! As I remember, that involves lots of lower back motion and shock absorption :) Icelandics sound wonderful - but I think inflicting both a 5'10" rider and the sub-tropics of South Carolina on the poor beast might be too much. (Maybe an elderly Tennessee Walker who's very patient and not too tall - have problems reaching up, y'know.)

I think I'll go over to this new barn near me - they teach both disciplines and they offer hippotherapy for kids - and see what they advise. I'll let you know how it goes!

[FRED]

Good luck on your horse adventures Peace.
Thanks floppy,I will do some research about Icelandics.
PS; we may possibly be going on holiday in August to Germany,you could give us some advice if it happens :D , please forgive me saying this, but I'm sure Germans do smile, don't they...
Its a very bad English joke...sorry.
Fred.

[Allie]

Fred - you could always go with a gaited horse! I know lots of stories of people with bad backs who bought gaited horses and were able to continue to ride. There are so many to choose from too - Paso Finos, Tennessee Walkers, Foxtrotters, Racking Horses (althought racking horses and gaited Saddlebreds wouldn't be quite as good a fit because their gaits are faster and are not the type that they can maintain for long periods of time). I've ridden both Foxtrotters and Paso Finos. The Foxtrotter was really nice, but I would especially recommend the Pasos - like you are hardly even moving...it was wonderful...

Allie

[floppy]

germans smile??
hehe...some of them are very miserable looking people but it depends where you go...when i ride ...everyone-even strangers smile and say hello....but at a yard that is a bit upmarket and full of wiss bods then to even get them to twicker the corner of their mouth and say hello is like trying to get a cow to stand on its head!

[Edited by floppy on 2nd Jun 2001 at 09:31 PM]

[FRED]

Hello Allie and floppy, thankyou for your kind advice,
my favourite horse, Sophie can do a trot as smooth as silk when we work together ,even at quicker paces,I love this,its like floating on air.But I have a long road ahead and need lots more practise,Im off out on the horse soon,and will let you know when I try some western riding,
also my back is a little better thank goodness.
Fred.

[Catbaloo]

Can I just get this of my chest. My friend has just had her horse "converted" to western. He is very good at this, on person rode him and was suprised to find how light in the mouth he has become. But just as my friend was just putting her western tack on, (the rest of her yard ride english) a little group had fromed, as they do with anything new. One woman, who may be has never riden western, remarked, Oh, there what I call lazy mans stirups. Arrgh. I had to say this as when I have had my lessons I get off and I don't think for one minute I'v been lazy. Or have I got it wrong.

[Outrider]

What did she mean by this? What is lazy about it? You just don't need high stirrups on a western saddle. I am sure she has never ridden western before, and unfortunately, there will always be folks in both disiplines that will make fun of the other. Most mean it in jest as when I call english saddles, "espensive leather napkins". But now and then you run across folks who just don't like the other disipline and look for or invent ways to run it down. But, before a person can be insulted, they first must LET themselves be insulted. Don't let yourself be insulted folks. Just a little bit of old cowboy logic! :) Happy Trails!

[FRED]

Hi, I doubt Outrider would ever need a 2nd, but certainly
on our shores there is lots of silly one-upmanship and especialy know alls,often we get court by comments that we don't expect,its best to smile and next time you will be ready,perhaps you will ask her lots of questions about western ridding,we all know what will be the out come.Its good to get these type of people off your mind.
Fred

[Sharon H]

Fred, funnily enough my back seems to get better the more I ride. I mentioned this to my chiropractor and he said it was probably building up the muscles in the back that was helping. I suppose it depends on exactly what problem you have with your back in the first place though. I've two worn vertebra in the middle of my back and my neck bends the wrong way. I also sometimes sieze up completely in my lower back but fortunately that doesn't happen very often, usually if I reach down and forwards to pick something up, it needn't be a heavy object either, the time I had it was was picking up a punnett of strawberries!

[FRED]

Hi SharonH.
Like most men, I have ignored lots of good advice regarding looking after your back,I would agree riding helps,but when I'm on the really big horses I go stiff and struggle to go with them.My problems are now caused by the silly things too,its embarassing.
Today I was on Sophie, we have come a long way, no more bossing the other horses when I'm on her,patience and a little out witting have done the trick,1st canter was steady,2nd like a rocket. I need lots and lots of practice.
Anyway,hope you get to do some western ridding,I hope to start in a month or two,good luck.
Fred

[floppy]

exercise balls that you sit on help strengthen your lower back..there was an article about them in my health insurrance monthly mag. Physiotherapists use them alot etc.
as for western riding..there is a 7yr old arab at this yard i go to that was only ever used for dressage and hacking fully tacked with an english 'leather napkin' and a bitted bridle...and the owner found a 'cowboy' :D to ride the arab about a month ago and i saw this cowboy yesterday and he was going out for a hack with the hrose with a western saddle an a rope halter ..NO BIT ..first he lunged the horse in the arena and then moutned an did a few exercises with the horse (which i dunno what they were because all i know about western riding is how to put a western saddle on a horse!:D) anyway the horse was an aboslute angel and then he set off with his cowboy buddy for a long ride...but i found amazing as there i only know 2 people that ride their horses here without bits! one day..i hope to be able to ride my future own horse without a bit..parelli is the first thing im going to look into ..just thought i would share that with you..

by tht eway...outrider...whats happenign with this western thing you are doing to add to this site??

[Outrider]

The new western portion to New Rider is called The Weatern Way. I am collecting the first couple of articles for it right now and it should be up and operational by the middle of the month. Thanks for asking! Hope everyone enjoys it when it finally does begin! Happy Trails!

[FRED]

Hi floppy,exercise balls would have to be tough in my house,
this silly black lab thinks anything ball shaped is for destroying,what can I say.But its worth a try.
We look forward to the Western Way,many thanks Tim.

[floppy]

im sure excersie balls are pretty tough..because of the different weights of people that use them...they are quite big...and as for your labrador the ball would be bigger than him(her?):D and i think it would be more liek a bit of furniture than a toy..unless your doggie is extremely naughty and chews your furniture?

[Tammy]

She probably said that because the western saddle's stirrups are more "fixed" than the english saddles'. Doesn't mean they are better or worse; just designed for different purposes. That comment was a silly way to try to denigrate something to build herself up...I can't stand pretentious people.

[Outrider]

Ah well TAmmy, every group has its pretentious folks. I try not to come down to their level. Hey Fre! We have something in common besides riding! I have a black lab that chews horse balls too! Happy Trails!

[FRED]

Black labs,Ive had them for over 27 years,I would not like to think how many miles we have walked and would not be without one.Despite the odd bouts of destruction :o
Poppy said she can see why there 'mans' best friend.
This is not strictly true, but....
Know alls and ignorance, its human, but what a pain.
That was a good one you mentioned,about 1st you have to let yourself be insulted,I will remember that,never come across that saying, but how true.
Seeya
Fred

[floppy]

there is a lab. doggie at a yard where a friend keeps her horse and i went to help her out for a day and this lab. came hurtling towards me with a horse ball in his mouth...but he was running a wee bit fast and colided straight into me...and then expected me to play with him!

[Tammy]

I have a black lab, too! and so does the horsey guy up the street...

[Outrider]

Labs just naturally go with horse people! Mine loves his horse ball...at least as long as it lasts! He also likes to jump at me floppy and tackle me to get me to play with. Luckily, he doesn't do that with strangers. He is still just a pup at a year and a half but weighs about 85 pounds! Lots of fun! I don't take him to the stables as he just barks and barks at all the horses. I still need to get him used to that. Happy Trails and Lab licks!

[floppy]

the resident cowboy at the yard where my cousin keeps her horse has just got 2 new blakc lab pups...he already has a fully grown one that goes out on rides with him but the 2 pups get a blanket in the horses stable to lie on until he returns form his ride...sooo cute!:D
i wish i could take on of my dogs out riding with me but that is askign the impossible...

[FRED]

Hi floppy,I just noticed about the lab pup's.
They are cute, maybe Outrider we will be changing the name of this thread to,A Lot of Interest in Labradors too.I would not let my lab any where near a saddle, she gets brassed off with me coming home smelling of horses,hehe.
Mine, miss Sally {ebony-cherub, proper name}is 12 yrs old this week

Anyway, take care,I had noticed you missing,wondered if one of those crazy horses had carted you off !! :p
Fred

[floppy]

who was missing?
i would take my dogs out riding..but the st bernard wouldnt last long and the little doggies would run off chasing other dogs or getting stepped on by big horses!:)

[Allie]

what about hunting dogs? can they count too? There is not a lab in sight at the ranch where I board, but we do have a venerable old hunting dog (not sure what breed) named Red Girl (because she's red and a girl...creative isn't it). She goes on rides with everyone and even keeps the horses off the porch. Can't say I care for labs personally, but to each his own!

Allie