Does rank in the herd affect a horses behaviour?

[katieB]

Up until recently, Ellie shared her field with another mare and a gelding. The other mare was the boss and Ellie and the gelding were always together. A few weeks ago the YOs redesigned the fields and now just Ellie and the gelding share a field - Ellie now being the alpha. I have noticed a significant difference in her stable manners and the way she acts around me, its like she is always trying to put me in my place and show me who's boss. Im certain its not due to too much hard feed and the only thing I cant rule out is the change in the field setup. Does anyone know if im on the right lines with this?

[Big Ears]

I think you probably are right.

I have two mares - Molly is dominant mare when only she is turned out with our 3 donkeys, she herds them around. However when Rosie is there, Rosie is top horse and Molly doesn't herd the donks and kow tows to Rosie.

When Rosie first came here, she was very dominant and aggressive to me too. Where she was before, she was not the dominant horse, a gelding was in charge. I would have expected Molly to be top horse but Rosie nipped in and established herself and that was that.

We did natural horsemanship training with Rosie so that she began to respect me as herd leader as she used to completely walk over me and everyone else. Now she is well behaved.

[KarinUS]

I don't think so.
My OH always jokes that the ranking in our herd is:
Karin (me), DJ, Missy, Ray (him)
He says he wishes he could work his way up to be somewhere in teh middle... :D
He is sort of right. But eventhough DJ is definitely bossing Missy around, it is very unlikely that he forgets Ray is a human and shall not be pushed around.

[Stella2]

Its a very interesting question.

I'm not sure, but I'd guess that your mare is enjoying her new found position in the herd and is just asking you questions about whether her position has changed generally. I'd guess again that solving it would just require answering her clearly and consistently with the correct body language, perhaps being a bit stricter that you might usually choose to be for a while.

My mare Flora is not naturally dominant. she has though been out with other horses she could dominate in the past, but she has never been lead mare because someone more naturally dominant has also been in the herd. For several months now she has just been turned out with one other mare who is very clearly lead mare. There are no problems because Flora doesn't argue. If she changed her behaviour in any way towards me when she had another mare in the herd to push around a few months ago, I didn't really notice. Looking back, it could have been then that she 'asked me a few questions' e.g going to push past me etc. But I always tend to instinctively answer anything like that with with 'no, I'm lead mare ... did you forget yourself?' and due to her generally compliant nature that is all I ever need to do.

If yours is being really pushy, in addition to being strict about her manners generally, you could do some 'join up exercises with her and then when she is close to you, take some time to back her up and move her quarters over (clearly communicates that we are in the dominant position), following by softening your body language and inviting her to you for a good head rub or whatever.

I seem to have gone on a bit. I hope some of it is some use :)

[StormyJ]

I think you are definitley right. When our horses were grouped together, Jack was alpha male and became awful about getting in (he attacked Steph) and began to kick and bite. The lower down risk injury too.

[shandy84]

Bramble ALWAYS changes according to the herd structure, when she was boss with Shandy she was a wild untouchable git and only now when she is number three in the herd does she seem to be coming good and being happier and more chilled about life

[Yann]

I'd say you're on the right lines too. Rio is mid to bottom in her herd, only bosses the young geldings and nobody else much. She's easy going for the most part with people too. Gem on the other hand is quite a dominant character, and is much more opinionated. We've done groundwork with her to help establish who's in charge in a nice way. I suppose being dominant takes continous work to maintain, especially at first, and she's just transferring the situation into your relationship too.

[Alibi]

Knowing Ellie a little bit I'd say you're spot on!

She's got a little bit of power in the field, and being quite a dominant mare anyway she is trying it on with you. Think it may be time to get the carrot stick out and remind her that she has to respect you and your space.

Could also be combined with her feeling fitter too now that she's back in work.

[Pink's lady]

I would have said that the position in the herd has less effect than the security of that position.

In our huge feild we have 7 horses. However, some of them reguallarly dissapear for a week or so when thay move to a different field up the road for schooling, then come back again.

We find that there is usually a change in behaviour for the first day or so as they have to re-assert their position , then they all settle back down to the same temperment as before.

I do know of a few ponies though (all mares for some reason), who's behaviour to people changes dramatically when they are unsettled, or bullied, in the herd.

[lizzy]

Not sure where Adam is in his herds - if the riding school geldings are going out he goes out with them, better field, better grass and nearer to the yard,about 7 horses. If they are not going out he goes out with the ponies, about 20 of them, mixed group of mares and geldings. He does not stable very well overnight, although he doesn't seem to mind being in during the day when the yard is busy. He doesn't seem to really care who he is out with as long as he is out and I don't think it affects his temperament or behaviour - although he does noticeably bicker with one of the larger geldings in the pony group, Peter.

[dotsanddashes]

Just thought I would add we have found herd position to relate to ground and ridden manners/bahaviour too.

I have a gelding who has never been alpha anywhere, anytime - soft as butter and mild, but in a mixed sex herd, he tends to 'attract' the ladies (young and old) so found himself further up the tree than he had ever been before - we noticed he suddenly exercised his right not to be caught, not to go into his box, to barge though a gate etc. Take him away from the girlies and he reverts to mister nice guy again.

Now we have two geldings and a filly in the field. Black tb is definately boss by virtue of being a bully - but filly will stay by other gelding come thick or thin and the two of them ignore Black one until he barges and herds filly away.

We refer to appy gelding as leader by example........if the filly picks up half his manners and personality, I will be well pleased.

[Bebe]

I suppose being dominant takes continous work to maintain, especially at first, and she's just transferring the situation into your relationship too.

Echo. Bebe is naturally quite dominant and has tended to work her way up the ranks in any herd she's been in. She was very badly behaved when I first got her, possibly because she'd been at the bottom of the pecking order at the place where she was kept before I got her (with just 1 gelding who was very mean to her by the sound of things) and had now decided that wasn't happening again. She has spells of being slightly bolshy if a new horse arrives at the yard but a bit of groundwork sorts her out.

I suspect security of their position does play a part too though. It seems logical that if a horse is testing the waters with regards to a new addition to its herd, or is being pushed by the new horse, they would also act the same way towards any people interacting with him/her.

[Mehitabel]

i think it's probably partly to do with whether the horse is a dominant one by nature or not - if it's leader 'by default' in the horse herd, but not actually particularly actively dominant in itself, then i wouldn't expect it to try it on with its human who it knows is boss.

but if the horse *actively wants* to be boss, then i'd expect that being able to be boss inthe field would lead to them trying for the 'ultimate boss-dom' of being in charge of the human.