To feed from the hand or not?

[Holistic Horse]

Hi Guys,

Would be really interested in peoples opinion on whether to feed tip bits (apples, horse snacks) from the hand or whether they should be placed in their feed tray.

I have read several articles how you should not do this and why but wanted peoples ideas in the real world.

Would much appreciate your advice.


C.

[Kalypso]

I think it rather depends on the horse's personality!! I always fed Kallie from my hand, but Kal NEVER nipped. i could put my hand right up under her mouth and she'd maybe lip at it, and just look at me like "oh, you have no food, would you stop it now?"

On the other hand, I had a friend at my barn (who is also a member of NR) who never fed her horse by hand because he was nippy to begin with, and feeding by hand would just make it worse. at least, i think that's why!! :eek:

So, I think it just depends. I love feeding horses by hand, feeling their soft little lips and noses on my hand. :D

[KarinUS]

We used to feed carrots by hand. One of our horses got kind of pushy, the other was fine.
At this time we rarely feed any treats at all. I read an interesting article about relationships and decided I didn't want my relationship with my horses to be based on food. ;)

[chev]

Never feed treats at all. Basically because I have small children, and it's far too easy for a horse to catch little fingers by mistake, even when they're not nippy.

The only times I have done is in exceptional circumstances where I really needed a bribe - like teaching Dot that it was ok to come close to me. Then I've found waving something tasty is quite a useful bargaining tool - but once she started to approach, I stopped using food as a bribe.

[Yann]

I treat profusely, but my horse isn't bargy and respects my space. I do it because she likes it and as a reinforcer to certain behaviours. I've started with clicker training as an extension to this and it's gone well.

I certainly wouldn't do it with a bargy or nippy horse though. I found it interesting that Monty Roberts is so opposed to the use of food as a reward.

[Peace]

Yann - I thought it was interesting that Kelly Marks also discourages food rewards, on the basis that herbivores don't connect food and behavior in the same way a predator would. Why is Monty opposed?

I never handfeed Quanah (the Piranha;) ), but I'm considering clicker training with Boots, who's older and far more polite. He will have to earn his treats, though - I wouldn't just stand and handfeed him.

[Tootsie4U]

At my place of employment, all treats are fed in their feed or in feed pails. Never by hand. As Chev said, accidents can happen even if the horse doesnt mean to.

Something that has become a huge deal to me very recently is the realization that one day my horse may become someone else's horse. It is a responsibility to teach and train horses to be safe companions no matter what my preference is. My horses' next owner may be a mother of a five year old child. Chances are that childs reflexes to pull back from an unintentional nip aren't as quick as mine. Its probably for the best that I stop treating my horse by hand. Just something to think about.

[Holistic Horse]

Thanks for the advice, I understand the danger on hand feeding a horse and it may lead them to nip.

The article that I read which really threw me into turmoil was with regard to herd hieracy. Apparently by giving away your food to your horse, you are becoming the subbordinate to your horse, as the weeker horses in the herd have to give up their found to the stronger horses in a herd enviroment, you are therefore letting yourself become lower in the herd than your horse therefore you wont be able to demand the respect that you will require when using correct ground skills.

I dont want to teach bad habits to my horse and want to try and be consistant so we both know the rules, however do so love it when I can give her a treat.

To Treat or not to Treat, that is the question???

[IrisSilverMoon]

meh...I pretty much always treat from my hand. I won't do it if a horse gets nippy or if they might be prone to becomming that way (there's a stallion at the barn i absolutely would never feed from my hand).

I'm always giving George treats, he gets one small one before his ride and one after. The small one he gets with the bit because when I started working with him he was reluctant to take the bit I didn't want him sour about it, now he searches for it. And after the ride i used the treats to do carrot stretches.

I don't treat a whole lot, but i think its more of a personal choice as to whether they get hand fed treats or not. I think a large majority of horses probably won't get nippy if they aren't constantly expecting treats.

One of the other things I actually liked about the new place i took a lesson was that the instructor was very adamant about the fact that the horses get treats. She really encouraged it. None of her horses were nippy either.

[chev]

Holistic Horse - that's an interesting one. I'd not heard it before. When I think of rude bargy horses pushing owners over for a treat I guess it makes sense too. I think maybe that just giving treats in itself won't encourage that - there must be other contributory factors too. I don't know.

The nippy thing has never worried me - I've not really seen many horses nip for treats. But this illustrates why it worries me...

We were just packing up to leave the field not that long ago. Rhodri, Lili and Gelfy were all stood by the gate. Two women and a girl of about 11 came past, and stopped to talk to the horses. They stroked and scratched them, and all three just stood there. Then the girl grabs a handful of grass for them. Rhodri took it - Lili bit at him to get him away. A small scuffle broke out. When they settled down again, there was just Rhodri by the gate. He got another handful of grass. The third time, he went to grab the grass and caught this girl's fingers. He hadn't snatched, or bitten, just caught her. They did look pretty bruised. I'd hate for my horse to hurt someone accidentally.

At the school my daughter rides at none of the ponies get treats - for that reason. But all the children have to give them rubs and scratches to say thankyou both during and after the lessons.

[Yann]

The article that I read which really threw me into turmoil was with regard to herd hieracy.

If a horse is grazing and a more dominant one wants what it is eating it will move it on to do so. I don't think this is the same as a horse receiving a treat from you, and I don't think the horse will see it that way either.

Monty R doesn't like treating as he thinks it will lead to horses biting.

All I can say is try it and see how you go - if it causes problems then stop, but if it doesn't then it can be a valuable part of your interactions. I defy anyone to say my horse doesn't see a treat as a reward. If she didn't then it wouldn't be so effective in training her to do things like wait on the other side of a gate.

[Jessey]

I used treat to reinforce good behaviour when my arab x was younger - bad move, after a while it went from when i thought he had done well getting a treat to when HE thought he had done well, nipping, shoving and temper tantrums when he couldn't have a treat. I do still treat but I dont do it every time, when he really works hard to do something or when he is being particually nice to me he will get a treat and he sure seams to appriciate them more now.

How does this work - 'Apparently by giving away your food to your horse, you are becoming the subbordinate to your horse, as the weeker horses in the herd have to give up their found to the stronger horses in a herd enviroment, you are therefore letting yourself become lower in the herd than your horse therefore you wont be able to demand the respect that you will require when using correct ground skills'

How is this any different when feeding treats to hard feed or hay?

[Bebe]

I feed by hand. Bebe has never nipped or so much as offered to nip and she's very respectful even when I have a feed bucket in hand. She does know when there are treats around, apparently putting my hand in my pocket = food so her ears will prick up immediately but if a treat doesn't emerge there's no bolshyness or anything. If she did react that way then I'd stop feeding by hand or do something else to re-establish her manners.

I do clicker training too so more often than not the treat is preceded by a desired behaviour, even if it is a long-standing one rather than something I'm training at that particular moment.

I only feed Bebe by hand though. If I want to offer another horse a treat I generally ask the horses owner first. There's a dartmoor on my yard who I've never hand-fed, not ever, yet he knows I have treats and will attempt to mug me (in a cute dartmoorish way) if he's given the chance. This is exactly the reason why he isn't fed by hand but it doesn't stop him from trying.

[pengapenga]

I also think it would depend on horses personalities, I have fed my own horses from my hand. At the riding school my children went to they had to give the horses a cuddle and a carrot after the lesson. I have also taught my kids to flatten the hand, not a guarantee to stop being nipped but does lessen the odds! Also I discourage my kids to feed other peoples horses when they pass a field of them.

interesting about the theory that by giving food treat to a horse the horse thinks it is boss horse, but how does that relate to feeding your horse its regluar daily allowance, won't he think he is higher up the herd hierachy than you then too.:rolleyes: :)

[Yann]

There's a school of thought that you should always ask the horse to back up a step or two when it's being given a bucket feed, and it's something we've always done with Rio.

[Tootsie4U]

How is this any different when feeding treats to hard feed or hay?

If you walk into an enclosed space to feed your horse - does (s)he stay away until you signal that it is ok to walk to her bucket to get the food?

Try that and you'll have your answer.

*edit* cross posted with Yann. That was my point for the question. :)

[Mehitabel]

generally, i don;lt for a few of the reasons mentioned above.


one day my horse may become someone else's horse. It is a responsibility to teach and train horses to be safe companions no matter what my preference is.

very much so for me, especially since i primarily work with youngsters at a stud, who do get sold on. we're also a riding school, so lots of people around and a bargy nippy horse is not great in that environment.


Apparently by giving away your food to your horse, you are becoming the subbordinate to your horse,

interesting. i'm not sure i agree entirely with it, as said - we give them hay, bucket feeds etc. i think this ties in with the nippiness, if a horse feels it can demand treats, this becomes you doing as they say, which definitely puts ouy as subordinate. so if the horse is *taking* the treats rather than *being given* them, then i can see it.

as said, i don't generally. i work with very food-oriented native ponies and they often don't need much excuse to become nibbly. the four year old i've backed this spring and am brining on has gotten pushy - she's normally very polite, ground manners excellent, a joy to ride - but a few carrots when being turned out has led to her mugging me for food all the time. so no more food her her and telling off when she mugs me. it's cute, yes, but she's going to be a kids' pony (she's 12.2hh) and what is a gentle shove to me will knock her future owner (who is currently 10 months old) flying when he starts handling her.

interestingly her mother is always polite and gentle, and the most she'll do to beg for food is wave a foreleg in the air - never pushes or bites.

[jUmPingIsLifE]

i hand feed my horses all the time and i dont have a problem with hand feeding. however at the first sign of a horse getting nippy because they are looking for treats then i stop handfeeding. tahoe got a little nippy after a whole summer of getting hand fed by little kids so i stoped hand feeding him for a while and still watch that he doesn't get nippy if i do feed him.

[Sondra]

I am a new horse owner, so I don't know if it's "right or wrong" but it feels good to hand feed Winston his carrots and apples.
He gets one carrot in the morning, and two carrots and an apple in the evening. After he has finished eating from my hand he will spend several minutes just licking my palm.
If it feels good to me and it does not hurt my horse I'll continue to use this as my "quiet time" with him.

[Mary Poppins]

I give treats to both my horses by hand but only when they have actually been good and deserve them. Neither of them have ever attempted to nip me and although both get excited at feed time I think that this is normal in all horses. I think that it is a nice way to reward them and like someone else said, I like the feeling of their mouth eating from my hand. I would never give a treat to a horse that i didn't know as I realise that not all of them are like that.

[notpoodle]

have to admit i give angel her vitamin biscuits by hand :rolleyes: i normally am too lazy to go get a bucket for like 3 little biscuit things :rolleyes:

angel isnt in the slightest nippy or bargy though, she seems to know very well that such behaviour is not allowed.

she does beg though. but not in a physical way, she'll just stand there with her head bopping up and down, eyeing up people's pockets or wheelbarrows with hay (ooh meals on wheels!) going past ...

julia
x

[martini55]

I feed treats from the hand as Martini has never been pushy or nippy so I see no problem with it. But I don't tend to just give her them regardless, only if she's behaved herself, like for example after she's been ridden or even just as simple as stood nicely while I have groomed her.

[galadriel]

Originally posted by Holistic Horse
Apparently by giving away your food to your horse, you are becoming the subbordinate to your horse, as the weeker horses in the herd have to give up their found to the stronger horses in a herd enviroment

Interesting.

However, we can't exactly stop feeding them...surely if this applies, it would apply just as much to regular meals as to treats.

I find that insisting on manners, and on behaving well, keeps horses "in their place" (so to speak) when feeding. Horses turn heads away and wait patiently for feed to be dumped; never are allowed to think that they are chasing ME away from the food.

I also insist on manners when feeding treats, and usually have the horse do something or other to "earn" the treat. I did have a little while, last year, when things got out of hand. At the time I could not ride, couldn't do much really...I would come out to the barn, hand out a few treats, go back inside. Horses became demanding.

That's when I started trick training. Now Kat has to earn it to get a treat. Duchess, who's been less pushy, just has to behave politely. This has worked well, and re-established things that were starting to slip.

I can entirely understand some of the perspectives about horses trying to take treats and accidentally getting a kiddee finger instead. Fortunately not one of my concerns at this time :) When I was doing kiddee lessons, I encouraged lots of praise for the pony, and had the kids give pony a treat before and after riding. It was never a problem--but I was always standing right there making sure that kiddees and pony got it right.

[~Perdita.M~]

Im one of those that agree's with it mostly coming down to personality. I give Shamrock treats by hand rarely, I did give him a couple of carrots/apples etc over Christmas day and boxing day.....and noticed the difference immediately! He is a very mouthy pony, mainly licking. He loves to stand and lick your hands, clothes, anything. He is also dominant, quickly works his way up any herd pecking order:rolleyes: And, is very, very food bargy. Can spot a bucket from three miles away and jumps into action herding any other horse off. He is getting the hang of things though and will go back a couple of steps in the stable when he sees me coming to the door with his bowl. So, in light of all of that, he gets fed by hand about once a year:D :rolleyes: I have to fuss/reward him in other ways..........one wither scratch and he is on his knees in bliss;)

[Elvengirl]

I feed treats by hand but not a lot. Shaq gets one carrot after every ride and that's it. He hasn't nipped yet except he does like to go into pockets in search of treats (not sure where this came from as I don't feed from my pocket?) Usually after his carrot I brush him down and he turns around and gives my shoulder a good grooming which I love and take as a signal that we have a respectful friendship and I've never had any doubt in my mind that he recognizes me as leader.

To say that by giving your horse treats is indicating you are submissive to them is silly in my opinion. In a herd situation horses don't "give up" food to other horses, they are pushed away by the dominant horse through body language. I do think that if you have a horse in which your relationship is wavering a little towards him being the dominant one it's probably a better idea to give treats only when they have done something you asked them to (as Galadriel pointed out). Otherwise it shouldn't be a problem, yes a horse can learn to bite if given treats but I think the biting habit has more to do with the horses attitude towards the human not the treats. We have a very nice lady who used to come out and give many of the horses treats but had no relationship with them otherwise who eventually was getting mowed over everytime she came out. I think this was because the horses saw her as simply a food dispenser as she had no other role in their social life. (for example rider or groomer)

With kids, just make sure they know the flat hand rule and supervise them. (Which you should be doing when children are around horses all the time anyways)

Oh and try not to feed treats in a group setting as this can cause fights which you may end up in the middle of.

[Bebe]

If you give your horse treats on demand, then I'd say your horse sees you as the submissive partner and you're allowing the horse to do that. I deliberately ignore Bebe if she actively seeks out treats and as a result it's rare for her to do more than prick up her ears when my hand goes in my pocket.

There's a school of thought that you should always ask the horse to back up a step or two when it's being given a bucket feed, and it's something we've always done with Rio.

Yep, I do this with Bebe too. The command for Bebe is "manners", say that and she'll back up until she hits the wall of her stable with her bum if the bucket hasn't been put down by that point.

Bebe would be quite bad with food given the chance based on how she behaved when I first got her. She does mug my OH simply because he's daft enough to ply her with treats to stop her from getting in his space. Rather than train my horse I've had to train my OH to not allow her to do this. She most definitely thinks he's of a lower rank in the herd than her, she'll walk in front of him to cut off his path, to the point of brushing against him if necessary. It's not overtly dominant and much more restrained than when she does the same to other horses but it's there. I've had to show OH how to make her move around him and not vice versa. If he wants to treat her he has to make her lower her head and stand quietly for a second before she gets the treat (so she has to earn it & is given it when he is ready, not when she wants it).

[$@R@H]

I sometimes give my horse treats from hand. But usally just chuck them in with her hard feed. But if I'm just hanging out with her in the paddock we tend to share a few oddfellows(I eat one half the oddfellow she gets the other half). But at no time does she start to get bargey and expect them, I think she gets quite "Oh really! a treat for me ohhh you shouldn't have!" and acts very greatful!:D
Which is quite interesting as shes quite a bargey horse in most other ways...Just not with her treats...

[bexj]

I vary my hand feeding with Molly, as she can become expectant, but never nippy. So some days she will get hand fed, other days out of a bucket, some days stuffed in her haynet or spread around the stable so she has to hunt for them. And some days she gets nothing. That way she doesn't automatically assume that she will get a treat if i happen to put my hands in my pocket. When I do hand feed, when they are all gone, I show her the palm of each hand in turn and say "no more" - she sniffs each hand then leaves me alone. It works well for me, but at the end of the day its all down to personal preference and your horses personality. I wouldn't hand feed a horse I didn't know, or hand feed a horse whose owner I know disagrees with it.

[chev]

Originally posted by Elvengirl
With kids, just make sure they know the flat hand rule and supervise them. (Which you should be doing when children are around horses all the time anyways)

I have, and I do.

But small children have tiny hands, and ponies have rather big moths. A child of 6 with their hand outstretched is still at risk of getting fingers caught, simply because their hand is so small. Keeping their hand flat is just not as effective as the same measure in an adult. Better to eliminate that risk altogether. :)

[Bebe]

But small children have tiny hands, and ponies have rather big moths

Very true. I don't hand feed a friends mare because she'll take your entire hand into her mouth along with the treat. She's not biting, just greedy and eager.

[Lovecat]

Originally posted by Lenvale
He gets a 'hello' carrot when i first arrive at the yard, a carrot after he has worked unless he has been really awful (only happened once in the year we've had him) and a 'goodbye' carrot when i leave the yard. I always make him back up a couple of strides before he gets the carrot though, he knows this routine so well i just have to point towards his feet and he's backing.

Snap! :D

Murphy can, if you allow him to, get very bargy over food, so from day two (day one was the day he got bargy!) I have insisted that he back up and wait until I'm ready to give him his food/treats. I did try clicker training with him but he was so excited by the prospect of unlimited treats coming at him that he didn't stop to think about the connection between treat and clicker!

As he used to be stabled at the centre of a busy riding school yard with loads of little kids running around, I was very concered that he didn't become nippy or try to mug people for treats. He knows that food is served only by someone inside his box and consequently doesn't look for treats over the door, only cuddles.

It's got to the stage where I go into the box after riding when he knows he's due a treat I don't actually have to do anything - he starts backing up and dropping his head and licking his lips at me without a word from me! Daft beggar.... ;)