The alpha human (this may get philosophical)

[Tootsie4U]

I have just spent a good part of the day researching horse behavior relative to relationships with humans. I didnt find much information. Most of it seems to be directed toward understanding natural behavior and how to incorporate that into achieving a relationship with your horse.

But, Im interested in understanding what happens *after* the relationship has been established.

Im sure it depends on a horse's personality, but in what ways does any horse's relationship with their alpha human affect their daily lives?

How dependant can horses become on their human alpha? Mentally, emotionally rather than just physically?

More later once I think about this some more....

[Tootsie4U]

Maybe another way to look at it would be:

Can certain horse behaviors be acquired as a result of a horses interaction with its alpha human? Behaviors that normally wouldnt be considered 'horsey' - such as throwing tantrums to get the alpha's attention.

Does that make any lightbulbs go off?

[Laetitia]

need to think about this. L

[shandy84]

humm, would like to hear the outcome of this as it may explain a lot regarding my two

[lisae]

in all respects - the general domesticated animal and its relationship to humans. Why do they bother? other than the obvious - humans feed us- animals do form bonds with humans.

We have a very cranky little tiger cat that prefers to be outside unless its January and she'll hiss and bite you and generally be unbearable, unless it's my son Alex, who picked her out of the cage at the shelter. She honors him by sleeping at the end of his bed and no one elses.

If you read the natural horsemanship books we are all encouraged to try and "speak horse" and communicate in their language and we are also told that as flight animals it is impossible for them to be anything but. But they will listen to us and stand even in what for a wild horse would be almost impossible circumstances.

A prior owner taught my mare to nod "yes" before getting her portion of grain, which I personally thought was kind of demeaning to the horse. But the mare will nod very vigorously at me if I appear late with breakfast on the weekend - not grain, even just the hay. She is using a "human" gesture to give me a message! And I NEVER asked her to nod as a condition of being fed.

[KarinUS]

Behaviors that normally wouldnt be considered 'horsey' - such as throwing tantrums to get the alpha's attention.

I am not quite sure I am understanding what you are getting at. Maybe I am not being philosophical enough today. I just had a lightbulb go off in my horse observations today as well...

As to the above: I think that's very horsey. Or any intelligent animal for that matter. I think it's related to conditioning (or maybe I am just thinking that because it's related to my 'lightbulb' experience?)
Most intelligent animals can learn that even undesirable behavior can work in their favor. I'd be careful to attach human emotions though.

Throwing a tantrum to get attention is not that unusual. Dogs do it quite often- behave badly because then the owner pays attention to them rather than be ignored in the back yard.

But maybe you mean something different? A horse that gets attention and interaction but acts up during that positive interaction to get even more attention? Kind of a complusive attention-getter? Back to conditioning...

[KarinUS]

Just thought of something else regarding long-term relationship and established patterns.
Much like a marriage (and I've had several so I should know ;) ) there are patterns established in relationships, expectations both partners have of each other, and a perpetuating interaction style. Once an opinion has been formed about the other partner, it is often difficult to change one's perception about that partner and be open to other ways of interpreting actions.
Perception is reality!
There have been lots of test in regards to that on humans. We generally live up to the expectations others have of us. I think horses do, too.

Anyway back to the established pattern. They are very difficult to break. Your initial question seemed to focus very much on your partner but I think more focus should be brought to the dynamics of the relationship between the two of you.

Yes, I strongly believe that you both affect each other. It's a circle/ spiral.

[Tootsie4U]

Its more relative to what lisae was getting at.

Its a drastic difference in the species - predator and prey thing. Yet, if done appropriately, we can become the alpha. What implications does this have on your horse? How is he affected by you and your leadership (this will include involuntary results from your own personality type - for example, Im a control freak and the ramifications are very explicit in my horse)...

[Tootsie4U]

Cross posted. Yes Karin! That is what Im talking about. So tell us more about those tests.... and continue with the thought process regarding your last paragraph... please :D

[KarinUS]

Test to show that we live up to our expectations:

I was thinking of using this for a speech for my Toastmasters Club a while ago so this is pretty random, but you might be interested in expectation and learning (again this is all based on HUMAN studies):
Relationship between Teacher Expectations and Student Achievement (http://www.ncrel.org/sdrs/areas/issues/educatrs/leadrshp/le0bam.htm)

[horseygal90]

I've always thought that when a bond is established, with dominance, that the alpha is then obliged to find feed for it, and keep it safe.

If a horse was left without water, and betrayed by its alpha, then I'd guess it wouldn't trust anyone for a while. It would learnt aht trust was just a thing that didn't mean anything, and that it could do without it and fend for itself.

Cats can get very attached to certain people - My mum had a kitten when my sister was born, whose mother was horrible and hated nearly everyone, including my sister. The kitten wasn't the friendliest around (i.e it would scratch you if you tickled it in the street) but it loved my sister. She once dragged it around by its tongue! (Unintentionally, she was only 2 at the time).

I agree - these days we seem to fall into the trap of giving animals human traits - We say stuff like 'My horse is gets very anxious on a box rest, even though its only for 3 days' - the horse doesn't know that, as far as he is concerned he hasn't been out for 3 days, he may never go out again.

[Yann]

Not sure my light bulb is that bright, or even in the same room as yours but...

The interaction between a human owner and a horse is a continually evolving one, and though they are both wired differently in evolutionary terms they're bound to have an impact on each other and the relationship will continually evolve. The horse for example will become used to certain actions or responses in situations that are particular to the individual owner, and learn to respond accordingly. Likewise the owner will learn to expect certain responses from that particular horse, which may well not be general to other horses.

Whether that will lead to the horse fundamentally changing its wiring I doubt very much, it will still respond as a horse just as the owner will tend to respond as a human, although given the greater apparent intelligence the human has more scope to converge with the horse's viewpoint on their part.

It is entirely possible as has been pointed out to train a horse to do distinctly unhorsey things, Rio will say please with her front leg because she's learnt that perfoming the action gets a desired result in different contexts.

In response to the original question I think it has to be the case that our personalities and preferences will have an impact on the horse and its behaviour and perception of the world. Maybe there's something in the saying 'you are like your dog / horse'.

[KarinUS]

The circle/spiral. Geesh I might have to revert to my marriage experience there. But I promise I will lace in some horse experiences towards the end.

Every relationship is a dynamic compound of two partners interacting. One person can be very different with one partner than with another. That's why I love being married to Ray. He brings out the best in me. I am a better person with Ray. I was a horrible and instable person with my first husband. I wish I could say I have learned from the experience and am just a better person now- but I think if I had to live with husband #1 again it would be exactly the same outcome. And neither of us are bad people. Just the two of us interacting together was not good. I would do something that would trigger a reaction from him and so on. Perpetuating interaction model...
It's very difficult to break those. But I am sure it can be done.

My realtionship with DJ is partially so successful as a result of my expectations I think. DJ has bucked with the best of them, sat back in the cross-ties, ran off with me during our test ride (and frequently thereafter). But his owner thought so highly of him and I never questioned it. Whatever came our way I assumed it must be caused by some outside source and set out to fix it, expecting DJ to be the best possible, as long as I just adjusted his environment to where he could be the best. He knows I adore him. Sometimes my love for him feels so strong I feel as I could reach out and physically touch him with it.
Missy is a different story. Her owners were frightened of her. They wouldn't even get on for a demonstration. So we set out being cautious, expecting worse things of her. Sometimes she makes me so frustrated. If it were DJ I might think 'something is bothering him' but with her I revert to 'she is bothering me!' :rolleyes: And just as sure as I am that DJ can feel my approval, I know Missy can feel my frustration with her.
With her it takes some effort from my side to step back and remind myself that it is my job to help her; that she too thrives on being successful. Being succesful is a better motivator than being reprimanted. ;)

I think our relationship -no matter how enjoyable it is- will always be more challenging- simply because of the dynamics and expectations that have already been established...

[laura jeanne]

Very interesting. Have composed several answers in my head but to busy at work right now. So Tootsie, what's going on? Did something happen to make you start thinking of this?

Yann: Not sure my light bulb is that bright, or even in the same room as yours but...
I love this.

Karin, now I want to know what you observed with your horses today???

Weird post, sorry.

[ros]

Henry Blake has a nice story that for me sums it up. I can't remember the exact details without refering back to the book, but one of his horses gave him a lousy day's ride (out hunting, I think) and in disgust he chucked it back in its box with a few choice words and gave the next ride to his wife. The horse obviously viewed this as a bit of a come-down in life and the next time he rode it, it behaved perfectly.

[hackedoff]

Weeeeell Archer objects to being led out to the turnout by any one else if I am around. I am his Alpha/Gentle Leader so therefore I lead him out to the paddock- quite flattering really.

[laura jeanne]

for example, Im a control freak and the ramifications are very explicit in my horse)...

Wait til you see how kids react! They will be just the opposite of you. If you are neat, they will be sloppy. And so on and so on. Why? Maybe asserting their independence, maybe just pushing your buttons to get a reaction whatever it may be, maybe anything, who really knows?

[Tootsie4U]

9Originally posted by laura jeanne
So Tootsie, what's going on? Did something happen to make you start thinking of this?



Yeah, Bonfire's next 9 months. Im wondering how he'll be with riders who wont be looking at him subjectively. I have established expectations of him and they dont - he is just another horse to them. Also wondering how it'll be on his side of the coin. Since my (alpha human) role regarding him is changing slightly, how will that affect him?

Its theory though that Im after, Im trying NOT to be subjective this time ;)]

Karin, I've bookmarked that website. Will have to sit down and read it when I have more time. Interesting points you brought to the discussion...

[lisae]

I thought this and other messages from Toots were getting a little philosophical so I went and did a search on posts from the last few days. Congrats!!! not to sidetrack the thread but just read your exciting news. Too exciting.

Must retire for the evening, will PM you later.

[kedwards]

What an interesting question. I strongly believe that expectations and idiosyncracies of a trainer/owner/alpha human (or whatever), will play a role in the interaction between horse and human. How could they not? All of our interactions: what and how frequently we reward, what we ignore, what and how vigorously we reprimand, along with myriad subtle signals, will communicate and shape the relationship.

Podhajsky wrote an essay on his various mentors and their mounts, noting how the horses of each trainer reflected that trainer in some way. They weren't mirror images, in the sense that they were just like the trainer, but each trainer had a way of bringing out different characteristics in the horses.

And, in my own limited experience, I've certainly seen some fairly dramatic differences in horses in how horses interact with different people, or even in how the same behaviors can be differently interpreted by different people, which itself leads to the horse growing/developing in different ways.

[Bebe]

My realtionship with DJ is partially so successful as a result of my expectations I think. DJ has bucked with the best of them, sat back in the cross-ties, ran off with me during our test ride (and frequently thereafter). But his owner thought so highly of him and I never questioned it. Whatever came our way I assumed it must be caused by some outside source and set out to fix it, expecting DJ to be the best possible, as long as I just adjusted his environment to where he could be the best. He knows I adore him. Sometimes my love for him feels so strong I feel as I could reach out and physically touch him with it.

Wow Karin :D I think my relationship with Bebe is very similar to yours & DJs.

[pengapenga]

Not sure if my light bulb is bright but I will add my thoughts to the thread too:)

In a herd situation the alpha will be challenged by other members of the herd and will loose the leadership eventually, also the herd will be made up of a hierarchy, so to put that into a human horse relationship, could possibly go like this, you are alpha, another human will be 2IC and horse comes after. The horse should instinctively accept this situation and take reprimands from anyone higher up the herd ladder, in turn he will attempt to challenge those up higher up so that he can get a better position in the herd if he is reprimanded by the alpha/2IC when he makes his challenge he will sit back and wait for the next opportunity to do so. Possibly why we all love the relationship we have with our horses because it provides a challenge:)

A bit of a confusing answer but makes sense to me;) :D

KarinUS your posts were very interesting and provides food for thought:)

I found this article that may be interesting to you. It about the herd life of equines. Perhaps you could adabpt it to your situation. I am probably way off the mark here, but it is interesting anyway:o :D

http://www.fund4horses.org/info.php?id=449

[Mehitabel]

Im wondering how he'll be with riders who wont be looking at him subjectively. I have established expectations of him and they dont - he is just another horse to them.

what did you think when i rode him?

mine definitely behave and interact differently with me. i think of petal as a safe ride - and for me, she is. there is a bit of bouncing, but i never feel unsafe on her. but YM, who is a much better rider than i am and so should be far less bothered by the odd leap than i am - thinks of her as a bit of a lunatic. when we get back from a ride and she asks how she behaved, she is always surprised when i say 'fine'. having seen her ride petal, i can see why - she is much jumpier and more anxious. no reason - YM is a far better rider, confident, doesn't give her any signals to misbehave, taught me to ride, so it should be fine. nbut they don't mesh well.

[chev]

I think it can work both ways. Lili is very closely bonded with me. I can ask just about anything of her and she'll do it - I once asked her to swim for it with me on her back when we were cut off by the tide on a beach where I'd been long-reining. She'd never had anyone or anything on her back and was nervous of water - but she did it. I believe that anyone else in that situation with her and asking the same would have had a very different response. Her relationship with me is very well established - she trusts me, I trust her, and I expect her to try - so she does.

I have seen her argue something scary with a friend who isn't a 'pony person'. Lili, who has loaded like a dream all her life, threw herself off the ramp and refused to even consider going in for this person - someone who has successfully trained horses for years. It was difficult to imagine that Lili could actually behave that way.

Equally, she went away to stud last year, staying with both Monty and at the stud, and behaved impeccably. She tried it on a touch now and then, but nothing terrible.

So.... horses will respond to each person differently, and largely based on how that person responds to them - just as they would another horse.

The Alpha thing is more complicated. Horses in herds live with the Alpha all the time. An Alpha human is never in that position - we turn up, expect the horse to relinquish his Alpha status to us, adn then vanish again - not actually the kind of behaviour that would get you respect if you truly were an equine member of the herd. The fact that it is possible to gain that kind of respect while still exhibiting behaviours that would lose you any respect if you were equine makes me think that the Alpha human must be a lot more... pushy? about their role with a horse.

Maybe that's why some people find it easier to take on unfamiliar horses and get good work from them? I know I've met people who could take any of my ponies and get results at least as good as those I get from them, and others who can't get them to do anything at all. Perhaps some are just better at projecting that Alpha vibe... :D

There is also the personality thing. I don't get on well with TB types generally speaking. We wind each other up. A quiet TB can become the sharpest horse in the school when I get on. No idea why. But ponies, that can have some people banging their heads on the wall in frustration, I find relatively easy. Then there's individual personalities... like Es said.

And after all that I've no idea if any of it's relevant or whether I'm just working on candle power... ;)

[Mehitabel]

Originally posted by chev
There is also the personality thing. I don't get on well with TB types generally speaking. We wind each other up. A quiet TB can become the sharpest horse in the school when I get on. No idea why. But ponies, that can have some people banging their heads on the wall in frustration, I find relatively easy. Then there's individual personalities... like Es said.


like me and welsh cobs... :shudder: ;)

[chev]

Originally posted by Es
like me and welsh cobs... :shudder: ;)

:D :D

I'll tell Rhodri..... :p
It is true though - some people do get on with some horses better than others. The trick is matching horse and rider.

[CityGirl]

Well - as Es said - I think the psychological expectations can have physical repercussions. For example - "I think this horse will be spooky therefore I'm tense which makes him spooky" Self-fulfilling prophecy.

I also think (Toots, I remember posting about this) that a fresh eye can be a good thing. Sometimes the way we see a horse's behavior is coloured by our past experiences with them. So if a horse has been spooky or bucked a lot in the past & he acts up - we expect it to be bad again. Whereas perhaps someone else will just say "oh, a little tigger bounce, let's move on" in which case maybe it doesn't develop into a fullblown buck.

Relationships are flud as well so even the nature of an alpha human may change. Horses that may have taken care of their rider when the rider was a beginner may be a bit more forward & explosive as the rider gets better. Whether that's a matter of the horses testing boundaries or just feeling comfortable expressing themselves more, I'm not sure.

The most interesting thing to me is the matching personalities - is it better to match similar or opposite? For example - would you pair an agressive rider w/a slow horse in the hope that the agressive rider would get the horse more forward? Or better to have like to like - an agressive rider on a horse that is more foward?

I prefer similar to similar matches. For myself, I like more forward horses (i'm a TB girl) & I'm also a fairly agressive rider. Slower, more passive horses make me frustrated. But I know some people who prefer to match opposite personalities.

Sorry...rambling now...

[Silver1]

Originally posted by Tootsie4U
Maybe another way to look at it would be:

Can certain horse behaviors be acquired as a result of a horses interaction with its alpha human? Behaviors that normally wouldnt be considered 'horsey' - such as throwing tantrums to get the alpha's attention.

Does that make any lightbulbs go off?

Tootsie, you know I have a very strong relationship with my horse. Its true I've been learning a lot of horse language from her, but she in turn has been learning a bit of human language and has taken on some classically human behaviors. Here is a small list of them:

Vocalizing more
Most horses don't use their voice a whole lot, especially in the wild unless its a frantic call to find their herd or a soft noise to talk to a foal. Mear talks all the time, she makes a low rumble that covers anything from "PLEASE give me a carrot?" to "Hey, your here!!" She also calls to me if she thinks I'm going to leave with out saying hello or she hasn't seen me in awhile, makes a weird sort of snortey noise when she's scared, and on and on. I've never known a horse to talk even half as much as Mear does.

Knows what the Stick of Power is for
When you have the Stick of Power, you are in charge. I've seen more then one horse come to this conclusion, the first one I ever saw was in a chestnut gelding that lived next door to Mear, so I'll use him as an example. One time when his owner and I were watching him play in the arena, he picked up a stick laying on the ground, walked towards us, and began waving it at us. He looked at us directly, ears perked, and obviously expected something. The owner started talking down to him saying "Is that a stick? What have you got? What are you going to do with that." He moved forward, and waved it again. I said "I think he thinks its a lungeing whip and he's trying to lunge you."

His owner is the fun loving sort and she slid right off and began running around the arena, being chased by the horse, who was waving the stick. (He did a fair exageration of someone lungeing him too, it was hilarious.) Then his stick broke cause he got excited and held it too tight. So his owner stooped down, grabbed a stick, and started to lunge him, and HE ran away...till he found another stick...it went on and on till they were both sweating and tired. They now play "The Stick of Power" regularly, and I play it with Mear too, though she preffered the purple whip I had and currently eschews the red one.

Pointing at things
This one took me the longest time to notice, but Mear has picked up the very human habit of pointing at things she wants. The first time I noticed she would get my attention then stick her nose in the direction of a bottle of fly spray sitting on the ground. She was tied so she couldn't reach it but she pointed at it, obviously, with her nose, several times. Mear hates fly spray, and will throw a huge tantrum every time I use it on her, but this time she happily allowed herself to be doused. She did this a second time while I was raking her stall, and followed me around pointing at the rake till I gave it to her. She then began attempting to rake her stall, though its not made for horse teeth. Its really too bad there isn't a rake built for a horse to grip, they seem to enjoy it.

Opening cans of soda pop
Mear adores soda pop, and unfortunately no ammount of zippers, hiding places or keeping her locked up will prevent her from taking my soda if she doesn't have soda too. Mear has learned to open cans, and untwist caps, to get her Dr. Pepper. (She also reads labels I think. She will drink Dr. Pepper as a rule, and coke sometimes, but she snubs pepsi. Doesn't matter if the bottle is open or not.

Dunno if this is what your looking for, but she does have very human traits. :)

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by Es
what did you think when i rode him?


He was on decent behavior. I dont recall him giving you any hard times - not really difficult ones anyway.

You didnt really see this that day, but one thing he does is throw those tantrums on the ground. He can be good as gold doing whatever we're doing until someone comes up to us. Since my attention is now off him, he'll suddenly start pulling away or biting his tack or reaching out to nudge the other person...

Did you notice anything about him relative to this overall topic? You actually would be the that objective person, so what say you? :)

[Mehitabel]

noting jumped out at me, i must say. to me, he seemed like a perfectly nice, normal, well behaved horse. i can see he has a bit of a cheeky streak in him, trying me on with spooking, not wanting to stand etc, but nothing struck me as out of the ordinary (apart from his loveliness in general!)

i'll just have to come and try again! :D

petal has some definite attention-seeking procedures when iam about - she is in a stable with the door open and a bar across, as she bangs the door, but she will reach round, swing the door shut with her head, then hold it shut with her chin and bang it. never does it when i'm not in sight or hearing, the staff telll me. when she hears my car arrive, if she's in before i get there, when she hears me talking from round the corner, when she sees me talk to another horse - especially copper or denim.

it;s not abnormal for them to create mischief to get attention. of course we alter their behaviours, interacting with a human is always going to be different from interacting with horses, so they will learn different ways of getting attention.

[denise42]

"
Relationships are flud as well so even the nature of an alpha human may change. Horses that may have taken care of their rider when the rider was a beginner may be a bit more forward & explosive as the rider gets better. Whether that's a matter of the horses testing boundaries or just feeling comfortable expressing themselves more, I'm not sure."
____________________________________________________
This I know for sure is true. My mare was a babysitter when I first got her and just started to learn to ride, 4 years ago. Now that I am asking more of her , she is asking more of me. As an example when I was learning to canter, she would say " Do you really want me to canter , then how about this " and she would take off. Now that I have learned to not react in fear to this and let her know that it is not acceptable , we have moved on to the next challange.
I think the one thing I have learned that is most valuable from her is to shut up , and to go about my business , she can read my body , better than she can understand my words. I also think it is confusing to them when you feel one way " Scared " and try to act another way, " Brave " .. I do better to just say to myself , this freaks me out a little , but we will work through it and guess what we do. Now is that because I have set us up for sucess or because she knows what I expect.
NO idea, my light bulb is a 15 watt today stayed up way to late last night. :D

[cvb]

hmm - only just found this, when I was looking for something else.

And because of other ongoing conversations, I have some thoughts to add...

We tend to ONLY think of the Alpha-Subordinate relationship. But when you look at herds, every horse has a relationship with every other horse - and a ot of those are affiliative rather than alpha-sub.

So - if Bon accepts you as his alpha still (and none of the people in the meantime take that role), whats to stop all his other relationships being affiliative ?

Out of our 3, two are "mine" and one is my mum's. But mum does most of the every day care cos I'm at work and she's not (retired).

So all the horses have relationships with each other of varying kinds, and also with us. My mum's pony is "hers" - there is a different bond there. But he and I also relate - I suspect its a form of "affiliative" even tho I do a bit of "alpha" bossing when I'm riding him ;)