Heather's Instructor Training and saddle horrors

[Mike]

I dropped in today on Heather's first instructor's training sessions to see Kay Humphries talk about saddles and fitting.

It was an absolute revealation. Kay has extensive experience of saddle fitting and works exculsively on vet referrals. She brought her 'chamber of horrors' of saddles that had caused problems with horses which she had stripped down to show what was wrong. There were some well know makes and when you saw what was going on inside it was shocking. Trees were not symetrical, stirrup bars were placed different distances back one side to the other, the same for the girth straps. All these cause the rider and saddle to be skewed on the horse's back and at best result in a horse which finds it difficult to go on rein more than the other and at worst, muscle wastage, pain, discomfort, premature athritis...

From a sheer safety point, when you saw what was holding on some girth straps - a collection of staples, you really worried what you've put you trust in. After all, you buy your saddle in good faith assuming that the manufacturer knows how to make them. After seeing Kay's examples that's not always the case. To be fair, I'm not saying all saddles are bad, it was just worrying to see some well known brands in there. (Please don't me ask which ones - it wouldn't be prudent to put names here.)

And this was only the start. When you consider how the saddle is designed she showed how some models could never work properly. All of these things before we got to actually seeing if it fitted the horse.

In a few hours it was clearly limited what Kay could cover but she ran through how to measure a horse for a saddle and a some excellent pointers to how to begin to look at saddles to see the problems of imbalance.

Perhaps the most striking demonstrations of the day were those on the horses. Some brave people who were liveries at the yard we were using brought their saddles and horses for assesment by Kay. She asked them to walk and trot around for us to see how the horse went. This was for our and the owners benefit as once Kay had seen the make of saddle she knew what the problems would be. We saw several examples and the transformations were exceptional.

One horse which was tense, had a few bucks and was going in a very strung-out, rushed manner had a very forward cut jumping style saddle that just didn't fit in any way and Kay recommended putting it immediately in the bin before it caused any more damage to the horse. Kay swopped it for one of Heather's saddles, popped the rider back on and the transformation was so striking. There had been absolutely no rider instruction, just swopped the saddles, and suddenly the horse was beginning to work through, was tracking up, beginning to relax, the head was dropping. You could have payed for a month's lessons and be happy if you'd achieved this. It's also worth adding that Heather's and Kay's saddles that were used were not necessarily the optimum fit for the horse but because the design is so fundamentally more balanced the horse's suddenly found they could move without restrictions or discomfort.

It's important to say there is absolutely no blame on the owner's for this. Very often they had called in 'Master Saddlers' to advise on fit and new saddles and assumed they knew what they were doing. If we had seen the horse first thing in the morning before Kay's talk I doubt we would have any clue that the saddle could be the cause of so many of that horse's problems.

As you might have gathered watching Kay left a big impression. Also somewhat depressing, as I came away realising how much was wrong with saddles and fitting and how many 'problems' we ascribe to the horse when the horse is trying to tell us 'I can't do this because this saddle is digging into my back'.

If you ever get the chance to see Kay doing a talk do go along - you'll never look at a saddle in the same way again.

Here's a quick snap - Kay's on the extreme right

http://www.newrider.com/common_images/1.jpg

[Edited by Mike on 25th Apr 2001 at 10:55 PM]

[Sarah]

blimey!

That sounds very worrying. How can we find out about what Kay pointed out to you all to see whether our saddlers are causing horrors to our horses?

Also, in the piccie, are there any Newrider bods who we can finally put a face to the name of?

bye!

[Sue Carnell]

I was thinking of taking pics and doing a saddle-fitting website, then asking Kay to give it a quick check for me. :)

Going to Kay's lecture/demos is very depressing.

Sue Carnell
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Mossy]

The thing that I find depressing about bad saddle fitting is not that there are horses with badly fitting or badly made saddles, - don't get me wrong that is bad enough, but the standard of saddle fitting amongst those who are supposed to know wha they are doing, and are getting paid for it is appalling.
If I asked a plumber to fix a leak and it still leaked i would expect the plumber to come back and fix it properly. However when I tell a saddler that my horse, who I know well, is not happy in it's saddle, despite the fact that it has been "fitted", I am the one treated as though I am at fault.
The dearer the saddle the more willing fitters are to come out to fit on site. However since a saddle fit depends on the tree, gullet and panels all of which can vary independently of the price, the ticket should not make any difference. When will the saddlery trade get away from free fitting when you buy a saddle, effectively income by commission, and charge a flat fitting fee regardless of cost of saddle? Much fairer and much more professional.

Sorry to rant but I have strong feelings on this one, with good reason.

[Wally]

Mossy,
Most plumbers have some idea what they are after in a finished result! They have water laid on in their houses and know how it should be. Sadly the closest most manufacturing saddlers get to a horse is the TV! I jest not!

The times I wa asked why a certain bit whent where it did and why the panel had to be just so was nobody's business.

I had a very depressing conversation with a saddler I used to work with who now works on his own. I tried to persuade him that stirrup bars were set too far forward and needed to be set MUCH further back. He simply wouldn't listen to me, and made all sorts of excuses for the designs that were made. I now know how Heather must have felt trying to convince the saddlery trade to listen.

I could tell you all sorts of horror stories, but this one I must have told you before.... I was in a factory that made their own trees! I was given 6 trees to make 6 identical saddles from. When I came to webb them I lined them up on my board and they were all different sizes, not two the same. Bars were all different, cantles at different angles, a complete disaster. When I pointed this out to the Boss man, the owner boss man, I was told that the trees were all the same size just different lengths??!!!!??

I won't say what company it was in the interests of legal action but it was a top name and they chared through the nose for a sadddle!

[Yvonne M]

if a saddle fits properly? I had a 'master saddler' come out & bring a new selection of saddles when I first got my new pony, they were made by them at the shop.It makes me worry now as I think he is ok with his saddle, but is he really? I am no expert so cannot even begin to know the answer.I have had it taken back for reflocking. That was nearly 2 years ago so should I be thinking about having a saddler come out & check?

[Sonia]

Sue
An excellent idea - maybe an area all about saddles and fitting. It sounds so fundamental for the horses well being

Sonia

[Rachel R]

It's awful isn't it! I was lucky enough to be at this talk (not in the picture though) and I and a few people sitting with me were almost in tears before Kay even got near a horse. The fundamental problem as I see it, is that even if a saddle is a reasonably good fit, it can be very badly made, and without having the pannel dropped out completely, you can't necessarily know what is underneath. I shall be certainly be checking the alignment of my stirrup bars and girth straps very carefully when I get hold of my saddle. Kay did say that if you discover you have a twisted tree, you send it back to the manufacturer and ask for a new tree to be put in - but make sure you check that when it comes back too!

It was also interesting to hear that a reflock can't possibly be done on site, it must be done in a workshop, as the pannel has to be taken out completely.

Sue, I think the web site is a great idea, and very, very important.

Rachel

[Maria]

I was another one of the people on the course - and it really was quite horrifying to see the guts of the saddles that the panels had been dropped out of.

When supposedly reputable makes appear time and time again in the list of rogues you really have to wonder whether the Society of Master Saddlers (SMS) should be renamed the Society of Master Bodgers. And because of fear of litigation we can't name and shame these companies - so more horses are going to be damaged because people have mistakenly placed their faith in SMS approved saddle makers and saddle fitters.

On 3 of the 4 guineapigs the saddles themselves weren't balanced or symmetrical. For example, stirrup bars were further back on one side than the other, immediately putting the rider out of balance on the horse's back.

A number of the guineapigs wanted to event and there were several very forward cut saddles with the stirrup bars set forward too. These immediately put the rider in a chair position with the weight on the back of the saddle. Even a very experience rider would have struggled to avoid this. The saddle on the little mare that bucked was an extreme example - no wonder she bucked!

As Mike has already said, Kay only does vet referrals. On a number of occasions she has prevented horses with behavioural problems from being destroyed by removing the cause of the problem - a particular saddle.

If you can get to see Kay giving a lecture demo then do. She is brilliant and held our interest for a whole day - even if as Rachel pointed out more than a few people were nearly in tears. If you can't then she has written a wonderful book on saddle fitting - one of the J A Allen guides. At £4.95, there is no reason why every caring horse owner shouldn't have a copy.

Another common problem Kay flagged was that many people put the saddle on too far forward - it needs to lie behind the shoulder so that it doesn't impede the horse's movement.

We all felt for the riders that had bought saddles in good faith and unintentionally inflicted pain on their horses in so doing. If you can't afford to buy a made to measure saddle from Barry Swain then the Heather Moffett Thorowgood synthetics came highly recommended by Kay and Heather. And did you know that Thorowgood offer a custom service to a wither template?

I don't think that I'm the only person now in an ethical dilemma about what to do with a second hand saddle I'd planned to sell. I'm going to get Jill, who came out with Kay, but actually lives in my area to have a look at the saddle. But, if as I fear, she identifies problems that make it unsellable, my husband is going to go up the wall that I'm going to get nothing back from my £700 saddle bought from an SMS approved saddle fitter!

I'm lucky enough to have a Barry/Heather saddle - but even then I've stupidly allowed a local saddler to make some adjustments to solve a problem. Have listened to Kay and talked to her - I didn't take into account the other problems that this would cause. Did I feel stupid - and suitably chastened! So my good saddle needs adjusting too. Next time I'll seek advice from Jill or Kay first!

Sue - if you read this far - I think your idea of a website is great. Saddle fitting is first and foremost vital to the horse's well being - but if the saddle puts the rider in the wrong balance then they just make the problem worst!

Maria

[Mossy]

I think I may be about to open an absolute hornet's nest here but the idea that a horse could be on the brink of destruction due to behaviour problems coming back to an ill fitting saddle beggars belief. I have some first hand experience of "unrideable" equine misbehaviour due to saddle problems. All of them have showed by some means or other that there was a problem. This could be consistently moving away when the saddle approaches or could be total equine hysterics at the mere site of a saddle. However assuming there is no physical damage if I can run my hands all over a horse's back, pushing and prodding with impunity, and get no reaction, and more especially if I can assisted vault on and ride the animal bareback without any sign of upset or incident imho the problem is not the horse!
I have no horse qualifications whatsoever and have great problems having a conversation with "horsey folk" as I do not speak the language well enough. This may appear big heaed and I don't mean it that way but don't these experienced equine people listen to their horses before they write them off?
Sorry, this post seems horribly arrogant but I am flabbergasted.

[KarlR]

This does sound terrible.

Is the implication that modern saddle construction is not as good as it once was or that saddles have always been poorly constructed?

I've read quite a bit on saddle fitting and examined various saddles in use. As a result I think that I can spot badly fitted saddles most of the time, but this is worrying because it seem that even if the saddle fits it may be so badly constructed as to harm the horse!

What can we do as individual riders to address this? Is there a way that we can get an ABC of how to check a saddle?

Personally, I have an old saddle simply labelled "The Spanish Saddlery" which appears to be of superb construction despite its age, but how can I be sure??

[Wally]

We once had a top polo palyer bring his old saddle into us to have a replica made, in fact he wanted a new saddle building on the same tree! He was in love with this saddle because in his words it fit any of his ponies and was so comfy. When we took the saddle apart our fears were confirmed, the tree was broken in about 4 places!! He was told, but for sentimental reasons he wanted the tree ressurected!! This took hours of work and about 4 gallons of wood glue and a tonne of gause bandage. It was not a good job and I cringe to think I had anything to do this this operation! The poor horses! A saddle was made for him and he went away rejoicing, This is the sort of concern some folk have for their horses! Even some top dressage riders havn't the first clue what to look for in a saddle.

[Dizzy]

I will be looking to buy a saddle this year, I would love to attend one of Kay's clinics, but I don't know when I'll manage to. Could someone steer me towards the better manufacturers, I'm no expert in fitting saddles, and will be asking a saddler to bring a range out - so if I could name the saddles I'd prefer would be a great help.

After reading all these posts, I'm going to arrange for my instructor to come along and oversee, she has a good knowledge and isn't afraid to voice her opinion.

I have saved for ages to buy a saddle, and would hate to think I would end up buying a pig in a poke. My horse is nearly 4 and will be backed shortly (hopefully circumstances permitting) my instructor has said I can borrow one of hers if we can find one to fit, until I get her going. I would love one of Heather's saddles, but I must admit that with synthetics, I understand they need a settling in time to mould to the horses shape, this worries me, as if you buy it from new, the saddler may not refund the money if your unhappy with the fit and consider it 2nd hand after its moulded. I have asked this before and never really had a reply that reassures me. So anyone with previous experience of fitting synthetics, I'd love to hear from you.

Lesley

[Wally]

If you were to get one of Heather's Thorowgood saddle I doubt very much you'd be disappointed. They don't need to settle in any more than a leather saddle needs to settle. I've been really happy with all of the models of Thorowgood saddle I've got.

[Dizzy]

Thankyou, I must admit I would love one of Heather's designs, and certainly will try one. I'm in no great hurry so I'll hang out until her new edition is available.

Lesley

[Wally]

I had a sit in Heather's new dressage saddle at the BETA trade fair. It is what I shal be buying in future of some of our school horses.

[Vicky]

Lesley

If you can afford it, after having saved hard for a new saddle, the leather version of Heather's saddle, made by Barry Swain (to fit your horse perfectly) is fantastic. I've had mine for a couple of months now - if fits perfectly, gets you in the right ear, shoulder, hip, heel position, is very comfortable and I have noticed a difference in my horse's way of going in it - probably because I'm more in balance myself!

They are expensive, but when you think how many years you will have your horse, it really is a good investment. My saddle was measured by Kay, but I think Heather also comes out to measure (not 100% sure, you'd have to check with her).

I did have the thorowgood version of Heather's saddle before I opted for the leather one - I was very pleased with the saddle, although it did need some adjustment to fit my horse properly (I didn't know they did a measuring service - perhaps this is a new service). This saddle was also very comfortable, and put you in the right position.

Sorry to go on, but I can certainly recommend the synthetic version, but really do love my leather version.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Vicky :cool:

[Wally]

This, presumably was the Heather GP? I have had a sit in the new dressage and it is even better than the GP!

[Dizzy]

Vicky you're saddle sounds great, and when Breeze reaches 6ish I'll probably do the same as you. At the moment she's almost 4 and not yet backed, my hope is to buy either a 2nd hand leather or a synthetic to use for the first couple of years and when she's matured buy her a rolls royce of a saddle.

Heather's new saddle sounds right up my street, but before I look at one I'll have to climb on board - unfortunatly I have no idea when that'll be, no where to work her, every where's a quagmire and I can't take her up to my instructors place as I'm livery at a farm and my instructors is a farm. So frustration is setting in.

Thanks for your reply, very reassuring to here you were are so happy with both versions of the saddle.

Lesley

[intouch]

Lesley - having seen the horrors that Kay had on show, I suggest you go for a synthetic rather than a second hand saddle, there were some top brand names that were not fit for any more than the bin. I'm sure Breeze will be worth it! To bad her progress is being held up, at least with Sunny we are still working at the basics, he thinks lunging (just at walk, with a leader) is really silly, but is doing his best to oblige!

[Dizzy]

Glad to here Sunny's coming along, I'm so jealous. I'm so bored, I bring Breeze in everyday, feed her, check her over, then stand for a good half an hour while she munches away on the grassy sides on the drive, there's barely any grass in her field. Then I put her back - I could scream.

Sunny sounds great, I love watching youngsters faces when they are asked to do something new, I've been asking Breeze to move over, by gentle pushes where my leg should hopefully soon be, at first I could see her saying 'oh for heavens sake' and begrudingly step over but today her little face said 'oh I know that one' and she took one step over. It made my day. Sad isn't it.

Thanks for the advise on the saddles, I won't be buying a 2nd hand leather, you're right Breeze is well worth a decent one, Maggie my instructor has said I can borrow one of hers (and she's an absolute stickler about well fitted tack, and knows alot about it) until I get her going, then I thought I'd try one of Heather's Thorowgood ones.

Nice to hear form you

Lesley

[msp]

I appreciate people can't list the bad saddle makes, but I was just wondering if there are any consistently good makes, and if there is a correlation between price and qaulity?!

Cheers
Mark
PS. have noticed there appears to be very little correlation between price and qaulity for riding instructors:-)

[Maria]

Mark

After having seen Kay's demonstration, the best saddles would seem to be: Thorowgood synthetics, Barry Swain's own saddles or Lovatt and Ricketts. But obviously the saddle still needs to fit the horse properly regardless of whether it is the right make. So you still need a good saddle fitter or to be able to take a wither template properly.

Where abouts do you live? Kay had a lady called Jill with her who is based in the South East.

Maria

[msp]

Hi Maria, thanks for the names - I don't need a saddle right now (haven't got a horse yet! but I am thinking about it), just want to grab some pointers to file away for later use!

Cheers
Mark
PS. I'm in Harlow NE of London.

[Heather]

HI Wally,

Just read your post re the polo player's saddle- without realising it, you have made a 'Holistic' tree! Barry Swain saws through all trees, and then uses leather or a special synthetic material to join it again, making the whole tree flex far more- this is what he calls the 'Holistic tree', and it is a variation on a very old process. I am sure that you did an excellent job, and may just have done a lot less harm than you realised!


Heather