Help With Bit [Archive] - New Rider Message Board

amattox3

24th Jan 2005, 04:24 AM

She is 2 and will be 3 in May. I have had her for almost 6 months. When we bought her she had 4 weeks of training and the rest I have done myself. She has been in the tom thumb since I have had her. When I run her its between a canter and gallop, but just a little faster than a canter because I don't want to cause problems with her legs (as I have heard you can do on young horses if you push them too much too soon). I ride her in an open space sometimes with other horses and sometimes just by herself. I read the article that Martini55 posted which actually helped me. He (the guy from the article) said that he would never recommend a tom thumb because of the different pressures that it gives, so tomorrow before I go and ride I am going to go and buy a full cheek snaffle, which is what he recommended and see how she does with that, unless you have some other advice for me, which by the way thanks for the advice about the shoeing too. ;)

Bay Mare

24th Jan 2005, 06:12 AM

She's very young, to be frank I would be allowing her to be a baby at the moment and, if anything, bringing her on very gently. The bit you are talking about is far too severe for a baby.

Olivia and Spaz

24th Jan 2005, 12:29 PM

Can someone please post the pic of this bit as I am at school and obvioulsy ebay is blocked!:mad: Thanks!

Olivia and Spaz

24th Jan 2005, 12:37 PM

I have just read that article about the Tom Thumb bit. I have a copper one for hunting in. I must say that I have no trouble steering but then Sparrow is 12 and very used to bit pressure and curb chains. I think these bits work for some horses, and not on others, also depending on the natural personality and the age of the horse and how long it has been backed ect.

chev

24th Jan 2005, 12:42 PM

So she's 5 months off being 3, and been ridden now for 7 months? So she was started under saddle at exactly two? Echo Bay Mare - that is very young, especially if you're doing fast work with her.

Horses sometimes run from pain - at this age, and with this kind of work from 2 years old, she may well be sore and struggling to cope with the strain of the work level. We tend to think of a horse that runs like this as wanting to run - that they're having too much fun to stop. In fact, just as often, they're running because they're hurting somewhere.

I'd be inclined to cut the ridden work for a while and go back to groundwork. She needs to have some decent schooling on the ground, in long-lines and on a halter, and really understand the aids, before you continue with ridden work. She would almost certainly benefit from having her back, neck and pelvis checked out by a chiro, also her saddle fit by a saddler. I'd be inclined to turn her away for a couple of months too - she is such a baby still and really hasn't had much chance at all to play and be a baby.

Pink's lady

24th Jan 2005, 12:48 PM

You ride a 2yr old? :eek: What is she? If she's not a TB, than she really shouldn't be being riden at all. Even a TB isn't really ready, and they only do so as they want to race them.

I don't know any 2/3 yr old thats mature enough to be riden. They haven't finished growing , and putting all that extra pressure on them leads to severe problems. There's a reasom most horse aren't broken to be riden until they're 4yrs.

I knew a 4 yr old Dales cross that had been broken at 2 and riden in short endurance at 2 1/2. I rode him for the vetting for the RDA , and he failed miserably. We didn't realise how younfg he was, and he was put down 2 weeks later as he was in continous pain with bone and growth deformities.

Demson

24th Jan 2005, 12:50 PM

If this had of been an older horse I would have sais sh emay be hard mouthed o rlearnt to ignore the aids to slow down and leaning against the pressure.

However as she is only 2years old it sounds more like she has not been taught enough to accept the aids. I would have thought she would have been lunged and long reined and going well in walk, trot and canter before she was rode.

Please don't put along shank bit in her baby mouth. All you are doing is giving YOURSELF more pulling power and this bit will be pretty severe for her and eventually she will start napping and becoming more difficult to control as she resists the bit even more. IT is very common or people who are bnot sure what to do to jsut resort to a stronger bit, then wonder why their horse is getting more difficult.

Instead go back to basics with her and school her in an arena, even if this means only getting 4-5 strides of canter before asking her to stop. Tis will help her learn what is being asked for her and she wil quicjly learn that she can have a nice canter and pull up with ease.

Also remember to half halt first, sit deep into the saddle and push your weight down then gently at first use your reins. If she doesn't stop pull a little harder.
I know of a couple of exercises that help a horse learn to slow down a gait and even stop. If your interested send me an email

Demson

24th Jan 2005, 12:53 PM

Just remembered, it may seem obvious and you may have already checked, but does the bit fit correctly (my fella is actually in between sizes and has to have bits specially)

If the bit is too high or too low it will be uncomfortable and possibly painful.

I have found a french link hanging cheek is an excelletn bit and most horses go happily in these.

Jessey

24th Jan 2005, 12:54 PM

As your mare is only 2 she probably dosen't have enough strength to balance herself correctly, they tend to fall on the fore hand and then find it very hard to stop, no matter what you put in her mouth. I personnally would go back to a snaffle and start doing balance work and get her to respond to weight and voice aids aswell, this dosen't just have to be when you ride, how do you get her to stop when you are leading her? She may also benifit from being turned away for a while, until she is older and a little stronger.
If you pull on a curb bit you could permanently damage the nerve endings in her mouth making her completely un-responsive.
I keep mentioning this book on NR but its very good, it called '101 arena exercises for horse and rider' by cherry hill, it gives lots of exercises that could help with this and loads of other stuff as well.
Perhaps some lessons with a good instructor would also be a benefit but I would seriously consider turning her away at least until the spring or longer if you can.

J

cvb

24th Jan 2005, 01:16 PM

guys - don't forget the whole transatlantic/western thing - its much more normal to back at this age (and compete) "over there"....

amattox - how have you built up to asking for stop from lope ? Because the major element in that kind of whoa is the weight - you should only need to cue the stop, not use the bit to get it...

Does she already know how to shift her weight back ? Whats her stop from jog/trot like ? What cues/aids are you using to ask for stop ?

If you're swapping back to a snaffle, then you're gonna be back to two reins so check she understands the cues and so on.

If she's not understanding the cues at a lower pace/gait, and is not able to shoft her weight back - then there is no way she's going to be able to stop from a faster pace.

p.s. plus the breed thing. Our UK native breeds tend to mature quite slowly.

Jessey

24th Jan 2005, 01:39 PM

I am going to back my filly when she is about 2 1/2 yrs but will then turn her away again.

J

cvb

24th Jan 2005, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Tangle
I had a quick look at the bit you've just won on ebay. I'm a bit concerned at the lengths of the shanks. Eight inches will give you an awful lot of leverage on her nose.

Tangle - western bits can LOOK severe, but they are supposed to be used with the weight of the rein, and neck reining - NOT with a contact !!

Also they might have a leather strap, but not a curb chain in the way an english curb might.

Peace

24th Jan 2005, 01:54 PM

so tomorrow before I go and ride I am going to go and buy a full cheek snaffle, which is what he recommended and see how she does with that,

Oh, I wouldn't do that till her brakes are fixed.:) You'll have much less "whoa" in a snaffle bit than with a curb. We had a good bit discussion or two over in the western forum. KarinUS started one titled "more whoa than a snaffle," and I had one titled "direct reining with this curb bit?" They're not too old if you go to that forum and search towards the end of last year.

I agree with those who advise giving her some time off. My little paint horse, Quanah, started work at two, giving trail rides, and by the time he was three was showing signs of joint trouble. I gave him a year off and he's fine now, thank goodness. But when he was first re-introduced to riding he did act like he expected it to hurt.:( Loves it now, though - especially jumping.:eek: :p

cvb

24th Jan 2005, 02:00 PM

Oh, I wouldn't do that till her brakes are fixed. You'll have much less "whoa" in a snaffle bit than with a curb.

See - the alternative is not to get into situations where you make it hard for the horse to whoa !

Why set a young horse up to fail ? It makes no sense...

You want to create situations where they can do well.

The foundation has to be sound and in place first, or you're building on shifting sand.

amattox3

24th Jan 2005, 02:18 PM

Ok first of all, she was broke when I bought her. She was broke at 26 months, and yes over here in America we do start to break our horses at the age of 2 and compete with them just don't push them until they are five. And what bit would you recommend that I use? Stick with the tomb thumb or change her? I used to know a lot about horses and everything then went 6 years without having horses or even riding. Any help you guys could give me would be great. thanks

cvb

24th Jan 2005, 02:22 PM

Amattox3 - I KNOW you want answers on the bit, but can we take a step back for a mo'

All the stuff I asked about whether she knows the cues etc - whatever bit you use, she needs to know that.

So before I would comment on a bit, I would want to have a better idea of her current education status.

If you are going to have to start back over, it may be better to go back to a snaffle, or even a bosal, to make it simpler for you both.

But if she has those pieces in place already, and this is simply about rider-horse communication, then I might look at some of the bits that have been suggested e.g. in KarinUS's previous thread etc

cvb

24th Jan 2005, 02:27 PM

just to emphasise the point - the stop should be possible regardless of whether I have a bosal, a rope hackamore, a snaffle, or a curb..... or even a bit of string round the horse's neck ;)

The bit is the icing on the cake.... its about finesse.

When I work my horse from the ground, she can stop on a sixpence. Just shifts her weight and is stopped.

A couple of times in dressage tests I've ridden up centre line, prepared to halt ahead of the marker.... and found that I'm halted cos on her the "prepare" is enough :rolleyes:

Ok, thats dressage and only from trot... but you see what I mean ?

amattox3

24th Jan 2005, 02:30 PM

She knows the cues. The only thing she doesnt know (she might just dont know for sure) are her leads and I never ride her in a circle. The people where I board her at dont have an arena or a round pen.

cvb

24th Jan 2005, 02:53 PM

so she's fine to stop in every other situation than canter ?

If you are in canter, can you use your weight to slow and quicken the canter ?

Does she listen to e.g. request to turn ? (i.e. is she just switching off in canter cos she's out and its FUN !!!).

Its always easier to stop a horse if you don't let them get out of control in the frist place :p

So when you are out and about, set yourself some canter tasks.

e.g. canter for X strides then stop again (either walk or jog, whichever you pick). Start with a small "X" e.g. only 10 strides. Repeat for quite a few times so its canter 10 strides, walk a bit, canter 10 strides, walk a bit. Horse should start to predict the downwards change. Now start playing with it and make it 15, then 5, then 18, then 10 and so on.

Now pick a landmark on the trail and do the same thing - canter to the landmark and then stop. Pick a nearby landmark (bush, tree etc) to start with and then make it further.

Another variation - don't always ask for stop. Sometimes ask for slow canter, then at next "marker" ask for fast, then slow and so on.,

e.g. go into canter, 10 strides "normal", now ask for slow - 10 strides slow - now back to "normal" for 10, then ask for stop.

The thing is that when we ride normally, the amount of times we repeat and "train" a cue is quite low. But setting challenges like above, you increase the repetitions - which gives you and her more practice.

Jessey

24th Jan 2005, 02:53 PM

So what cue do you use to stop her from a walk or jog, just pull on the bit? What cue do you use to stop her when leading (in a halter)? If she understands the cue in these situations (first time every time) as you say she does then there must be a physical problem making her run on from a lope, if there is no physical problem, she obviously dosen't understand whats being asked of her. The more information you post here the more accurate answers you will be able to get, exactly what cues (relating to stops) does she understand?

amattox3

24th Jan 2005, 03:06 PM

CVB, I will try that today when I go riding. the way I let her know its ok to go more is I either say 'UP' or just let some slack into the reins. When I stop her I pull back and say whoa at the same time. Also I am putting the other tom thumb bit back on her (the one with the shorter shanks. The reason I went to the one with 8" shanks is because we used a training fork on her in the begining and she would bit at the rings but now she doesnt use the training fork, so hopefully she won't bite at the bit) Yes she will stop on every other situation, if I have her in a collected canter then she will stop immediately if asked, its when she is feeling frisky and is in a gallop when she doesnt want to stop.

Jessey: When I walk her on halter how she stops is whenever I stop. She understands stopping when I walk, trot and have a collected canter, its the gallop.

Jessey

24th Jan 2005, 03:33 PM

AHHHH, will she collect back up for you from the gallop? (answer my own question here - NO otherwise you would stop her from there) I think the series Cvb suggested is a good one you could also try humming if she is getting over excited, sounds silly but it does something to you muscles in your lower body that tells them to calm and slow down (esp if you find yourself tensing up when you can't stop):D

amattox3

24th Jan 2005, 03:41 PM

No she wont collect up for me when she is in a gallop. Whenever I try to stop her she will put her head down and then stretch out her neck, like she wants me to give her more rein. I will try it today and see what she does and then I will let you guys know how it went.

cvb

24th Jan 2005, 03:46 PM

oh bother - flamin pooters just eaten my reply !!!

OK -start over...

what else are you using as the cue ?

Remember the cue is just the "ask" not the physical means by which you stop - no human is going to stop a half tonne horse through physical strength !

Cos if she thinks "slack" = go, then you say "stop" and she starts to stop, so you give a release and she sys "huh, now you want me to go ???"

The cue needs to be more than just rein - so she knows the difference between "slack=go" and "slack=good girl !"

I practise doing reinless slow and stop - if we can do that, then I can up the speed and add the rein.....

Colorado Sunset

24th Jan 2005, 04:01 PM

cvb-
Sorry to sound stupid here, but I have a question about this:

western bits can LOOK severe, but they are supposed to be used with the weight of the rein, and neck reining - NOT with a contact !!

If a horse just responds on the weight of the reins, why is amattox3 asking for a harsher bit, if she isnt going to put pressure on it?

I firmly believe that changing the bit is not the answer, I understand there are differences between how early horses are started in America to in England, however, no matter what country a horse is in, its bones still develop at the same rate, having a heavy western saddle on the back of a 2yr old could majorly damage its growing bones.

Sorry to sound negative here, really I am not trying to have a go but this has just left me with some questions :)

Thanks

Jo

Jessey

24th Jan 2005, 04:03 PM

Babies who'd have um! I think I would still consider her balance as being a factor in this, when a green horse gallops they will faltten out or hollow and fall onto the fore hand. Its like when you run down hill, there gets a point that even if you tried your hardest you couldn't stop. Lots of work on balance things like half halts, lots of little series of them, some extension and collection at all gaits may help. Try running her up hill, it may help her and you, she will do as shes asked with out a fight that way and it may help it all fall in place for her and if it is to do with her balance and getting her back end under, hill work will help.:D

Harry Hobbes

24th Jan 2005, 05:46 PM

If a horse just responds on the weight of the reins, why is amattox3 asking for a harsher bit, if she isnt going to put pressure on it?
Colorado Sunset,

There is nothing "stupid" about getting to the heart of the matter, and that is what you are doing with your question.

cvb's statement that you questioned is quite correct when the bit is used for communication rather than "control". Unfortunately, some 99 percent of today's riders are not into communication; they are into "control", as evidenced by all of the talk about stronger bits, aids, and stopping a horse with its mouth (i.e., "brakes" being applied in a horse's mouth).

(By the way, the so called "brakes" on every horse are actually in the other end of the horse; and are directly related to a concept known as "impulsion". If one has impulsion, then "the horse's go matches its whoa", and one does not have to hurt the horse in the mouth to get a proper slowing or stop.)

The estimated 1 percent of riders that realize that the bit/halter/lead is all about communication, and train for communication, only have to pick up or "touch" a rein to influence the horse to action. This is what the old masters of the spade bit were all about, and which is what cvb is referring; and also is what the modern "natural horsemen" are doing.

The traditional spade bit, as used in old California (and earlier in Mexico and on the Iberian Peninsula) used the feel of the shifting mass (i.e., weight) of the reins to (a) tell the horse that a cue is forthcoming, and (b) cue the horse. (This is why there are approximately 12-13 chain links between the rein and the shank on a traditional set of reins: the chain links add balance - mass - to the feel of the reins for the benefit of the horse.) "Cueing" is communicating; and training a horse for this communication is almost a lost art today, saved by the new breed of natural horsemen and pockets of "classicists" within the classical world.

But to answer your question quoted above, the rider will no doubt put more pressure on the horse, in an effort to "control" this youngster with more force on its mouth ("...know [sic] matter how hard I pull back"); hence the quest for a more effective (read: stronger) bit.

As for the horse that is the subject of this thread: It is being asked for more than it can accept, as evidenced by its cited behaviors ("...she just doesnt want to…" [sic]); a horse that is at the human age equivalent of an eight year old child.

Regarding the time taken to develop a young horse, the rush to get youngsters to perform as adults is largely driven by the competitive environment and the attendant conventional wisdom, and often results in horses "burned out" before they are ten years old.

But the old masters and the new masters take their time, and develop the horse gradually: They introduce the rider to the horse after three years of age with very light work for a couple of weeks (no running nor high-speed maneuvers), then they turn the horse out for the remainder of the year. When the horse is four, they re-introduce the rider and engage in medium work for a summer (perhaps light calf roping at brandings), and then turn the horse out for the remainder of the year. When the horse is five (or sometimes six), the horse is more emotionally stable, and the training begins in earnest, to include the high-speed maneuvers. It is less about bones, and more about mental and emotional development.

This slow, paced development results in a horse that is in its prime well into its teenage years.

Best regards,
Harry

Peace

24th Jan 2005, 07:45 PM

I agree completely that bits shouldn't be used as brakes. Quanah has the best brakes at my barn - well, I think so anyway;) - and he's not been ridden in anything but a full-cheek or a french-link snaffle in the two years I've owned him. Last year he still needed a weight aid to stop, but now his brakes are fully functional on hearing the word "whoa." But that's Quanah.

Bram has been a camp horse and God only knows what else during his 22 years on this earth, and he's a saint. But he's been hauled around by his mouth so much that he pretty much ignores "cues" from his bit and goes when he wants at the speed he chooses unless one really insists with the reins. Now we're working on learning to stop with seat and weight aids, but in situations where stopping is really important to me - and there are those times;) - I'm real glad I'm still riding him in a curb bit.:o

So that's why I wouldn't advise amattox to just switch this filly to a snaffle and ride away - as cvb said, that would be setting her up to fail, I think. :)

At any rate, I think time off is probably the best solution.

Colorado Sunset

24th Jan 2005, 07:51 PM

Thanks very much Harry Hobbes for your excellent answer to this question. Sadly, however, I am one of those 99% who do put a lot of pressure on the horses i ride mouths in order to make them go better, just through not having other options to try out on riding school horses who are already dead to both the leg and mouth :( Its horrible knowing there is another method and yet not being able to use it! :(

Thanks

Jo

Tangle

25th Jan 2005, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by cvb
Tangle - western bits can LOOK severe, but they are supposed to be used with the weight of the rein, and neck reining - NOT with a contact !!
Now I'm slightly confused! I know western bits are supposed to be used without a direct contact, but surely it will still be true that the longer the shanks the more they will amplify any signal? Wouldn't that be one way of making a bit stronger?

Colorado Sunset - is it possible for you to change schools? If you find a decent school the horses should be able to respond to light aids (having said that, I know it must be tough in London :()

Katie_85

25th Jan 2005, 01:52 AM

Tangle- Yes, if you pull directly on the shankd you would aplify the pressure to be sure. (wow, nice spelling on that sentence, I'm sober I swear! :D ) But a well trained Western horse doesn't need you to put direct contact on the shanks. It relies on your weight and position in the saddle, not nearly so much on your hands. So the effect of the curb would be amplified, if it were being used improperly. But being used properly IMHO, means hardly being used at all.

kedwards

25th Jan 2005, 03:19 AM

Basically, what everyone is saying, Amattox, is that you need to back up in training.

Age and inexperience aside, pulling the reins simply doesn't stop a horse who wants to go. In the case of well-trained horses, the reins can give the horse some information about where to put his head or how to balance himself, but they don't (in and of themselves) tell the horse to stop. Nor do you want them to. Whether you watch expert Western reiners, high level dressage riders, or showjumpers, not a one of them will halt by pulling back on the reins.

What you want to do, is teach your horse to stop from your seat aids. I know that you say that she stops fine now from a walk and trot, but if you have to pull on the reins to get the halt, then she really hasn't learned the lessons she needs to learn at the slower paces. If you haven't yet learned how to get a halt with your seat, I'd recommend getting a good instructor to help you.

Harry Hobbes

25th Jan 2005, 04:18 AM

Age and inexperience aside, pulling the reins simply doesn't stop a horse who wants to go. In the case of well-trained horses, the reins can give the horse some information about where to put his head or how to balance himself, but they don't (in and of themselves) tell the horse to stop. Nor do you want them to. Whether you watch expert Western reiners, high level dressage riders, or showjumpers, not a one of them will halt by pulling back on the reins. Very well said!

cvb

25th Jan 2005, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Colorado Sunset
cvb-
Sorry to sound stupid here, but I have a question about this:

If a horse just responds on the weight of the reins, why is amattox3 asking for a harsher bit, if she isnt going to put pressure on it?

As previous answers - thats not stupid ;) Amattox3 was, at one point, talking about moving to a snaffle. But if you check what I was saying, its all trying to say that the bit is unlikely to be the answer !

I firmly believe that changing the bit is not the answer

see, we agree !

I understand there are differences between how early horses are started in America to in England, however, no matter what country a horse is in, its bones still develop at the same rate, having a heavy western saddle on the back of a 2yr old could majorly damage its growing bones.

yes - but the breeds DO mature in different ways. Our 18 year old Fell is finally showing some limited signs of mental maturity :rolleyes:

I'm not saying I agree with the US "norm" or would practise it myself, even with an American breed. But it IS the "cultural" norm for at least certain parts of the horse world - and is that way for a reason that we might not be a position to understand. So we have to work with that to solve the problem. It is the context this question is set in. (just been reading a whole load of Mark Rashid and feeling very "passive leadership" right now ;) )

Sorry to sound negative here, really I am not trying to have a go but this has just left me with some questions :)

Didn't think it was negative ???

Colorado Sunset

25th Jan 2005, 01:02 PM

Tangle- I really wouldnt consider movigng- I love my yard to bits and the instruction is great, its just an easier option to use the reins! I dont pull without stopping though, dont get me wrong, I use my seat as well, actually I might have a lunge lesson to work on this! Good Idea! :)

Jo

cvb

25th Jan 2005, 01:52 PM

Colorado Sunset

Not sure what level you are ? One of the things that no one ever really told me, I found out for my self... but have since seen referred to in instruction (IF you knew what was behind it).

.. is that the weight with YOU make contact with is a BIG factor...

i.e. it is often our own assumption about the horse that leads us to accept and offer a heavy contact, rather than saying "no - not gonna do that"

so even on a school horse that is used to the push-pull merchants, you can ride "light" ...

Thing is sometimes having that heavy headed thing going on means that the horse's balance is all forward and its much more difficult to get the engine running and the horse moving out....

Thing is - imagine a tug of war.

First tug of war has two BIG teams either end.... they really pull hard. Imagine their target is for the flag to stay in the middle (rather than to "win"). If one pulls hard, what does the other one do to keep the status quo ? Pulls back by the same amount. If one team pulled harder, the other would fall over.

Now the second tug of war - two smaller teams, less pull - but the flag still stays in the middle

There is a degree to which a horse HAS to pull back/lean to maintain its balance if the rider rides "heavy" handed.

I happen to like riding with a light contact. Sometimes I ride too light and I have to watch my consistency...

another analogu - remember those "phones" you make with 2 tin cans and a piece of string ? Well you just need the line taut to make it work, you don't HAVE to have a big pull on it ;)

My other "rule" is that I should not use more hand than I have leg.

I appreciate that on a school horse that might still allow you a lot of hand ;)

Colorado Sunset

25th Jan 2005, 03:27 PM

Thanks a lot cvb, definately helps a lot, I dont ride very heavily handed, but I do use my legs a lot! (not good, i rely too much on myself than the horse carrying me!) But, thankyou for your help. The school horses I ride are only ridden by the more experienced people, so they are fairly well trained, however I would love to have my own horse to really train to light aids, really light :)

Thanks a lot cvb, but I think we are now hijacking amattox3's post!! :)

Thanks again,

Jo

galadriel

25th Jan 2005, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by cvb
I'm not saying I agree with the US "norm" or would practise it myself, even with an American breed. But it IS the "cultural" norm for at least certain parts of the horse world

Hey. Don't tar us all with the same brush. The US is a big country. Just because *some* of the breeds/disciplines may often start their horses young, doesn't mean that all or even the majority do.

Peace

25th Jan 2005, 04:35 PM

Hear hear, galadriel.:) I know lots of people who knew Quanah as a frighteningly gimpy three year old who are sorry now they made fun of me for giving him a year off (and then a year of Leslie's sloowly bringing him on) especially when he beats 'em out of the ribbons in hunter o/f.;)

Harry Hobbes

25th Jan 2005, 08:33 PM

Colorado Sunset,
Sadly, however, I am one of those 99% who do put a lot of pressure on the horses i ride mouths in order to make them go better, just through not having other options to try out on riding school horses who are already dead to both the leg and mouth Its horrible knowing there is another method and yet not being able to use it! I have a solution you can use on school horses. Try the following.

The next time that you are mounted on the school horse and you are standing and waiting (such as watching another rider or listening to the instructor's lecture), do the following:

With correct posture, and no driving aids, pick up very light contact (about one pound) equally with both reins and wait for the horse to break at the poll (by tucking its chin). As soon as the horse energetically tucks its chin, RELEASE FAST, and pet the horse. Wait two seconds, then repeat.

If the horse begins to throw its head, duck its head or otherwise evade the pressure, DO NOT RELEASE; wait for the break at the poll. (The release tells the horse: "Yes, that's the correct action.") Do not add more pressure; just hold the light pressure; and release only when the horse breaks at the poll; not when it evades.

This is teaching the horse to "pick up a soft feel", and teaching you how to ask for it, and is the basic exercise to teach the horse to be light on the bit. And this is easily doable in group lessons, because you can do this while paying attention to other things that are in progress.

As the horse gets good at picking up the soft feel consistently, gradually extend the time that the horse holds the break in the poll before you release (call this the "dwell" time), in one second increments. (First get one second good, then two seconds, then three, etc., working up to several seconds.)

You should be able to pracitce this anytime that you and the horse are standing still. When you and the horse get really good with it while standing still, then very grrrraaaaaadddddddduuuuuuuuaaaaaaaaallllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyy introduce it while at the walk. Then at walk-to-halt transitions. Then halt-to-walk transitions. Then at the trot.

If you do this consistently, I think that you will find new life in the "dead" mouth (and sides) of those school horses. It will take many riding sessions to get to the point where you can trot with a soft feel for an entire revolution around the school, but if you stick with it, you will get there.

Best regards,
Harry

Peace

25th Jan 2005, 10:24 PM

Oooh, thanks, Harry, for the exercise. I'm going to try that on Bram - it sounds like just the sort of thing that would work well with him.

cvb

26th Jan 2005, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by galadriel
Hey. Don't tar us all with the same brush. The US is a big country. Just because *some* of the breeds/disciplines may often start their horses young, doesn't mean that all or even the majority do.

Sorry Galadriel is was unintentional - I just used "shorthand"... and shouldn't have

kind of like all the folk who say "england" or "english" when they mean "britain" or "british"... annoys the wotsit out of people in Scotland !

grovel grovel

I am aware its not actually the "norm" for all equestrian areas in US so I should have known better :rolleyes:

Demson

26th Jan 2005, 12:49 PM

In the UK it is frowned upon to break a horse to be ridden before it is at least 3 1/2 years old (start lunge work around 3yrs+). However before we can critisize anyone whether in the USA or other countries we need to remind ourselves that through pure greed in the gambling world we break horses to race at break neck speeds or to jump. Which horses am I talking about. I am refering to the Thoroughbred, they are racing as 2yr olds even if they are younger as they are all given the birthday of the 1st January no matter what day their actual birthday is. A yard I was at was breaking a young horse that was physically and mentally immature and though it was only 1 yr old it was already being backed.

The yard I was at did hardly any lunging or long reining, they basically threw a saddle and bridle on and got a light weight rider on its back and imediately had it join part of the ride.

Colorado Sunset

26th Jan 2005, 04:21 PM

Thanks so much Harry Hobbes, definately an excersise I will try next time I ride :) and I def agree with, however (sorry, not doubting, just asking! :) ) What if the horse doesnt respond??

Thanks a lot,

Jo

amattox3

26th Jan 2005, 04:37 PM

Okay I think I have the stopping thing a little better under control than before but I will keep working with her on it. She is still in the tom thumb right now. Now here is my other thing. She keeps pulling her head down and I dont know why. She will still do it when I try to slow her down and she will do it at a walk and a trot also.

Harry Hobbes

26th Jan 2005, 04:58 PM

What if the horse doesnt respond?? You hold the pressure and wait. Sooner or later the horse will respond. You don't escalate; you don't fidget; you don't cajole, encourage nor pester. You just hold and wait.

The hardest part of training any horse is learning to have patience; and the reason that horses get "dead" in the nouth and sides is that people are not as patient as the horse. (I call this: The Patience Game.) If you observe other people with horses, you will see that people will consistently protest that they waited "forever", when "forever" was in fact about 20 seconds when they gave up trying. (You can prove this to yourself by timing with a watch another person doing anything that that person protests "takes forever". You'll find that most people cannot stick with a cue beyond about 20 seconds, if they don't get a response.)

If you hold the pressure and wait for the horse, sooner or later it will seek comfort in its mouth by moving. When that movement is a break in the poll (and only then), release. Those school horses should respond with the first soft feel in less than one minute. Subsequent responses will come sooner and sooner, until the horse gets to the point where it consistently and instantly responds.

But remember, you have to "out-patience" the horse if you want to teach it anything.

Best regards,
Harry

Colorado Sunset

26th Jan 2005, 05:11 PM

OK, thats great! Thank you so much! Im hopefully riding on thursday, so will tell you how it goes :)

Thanks again,

Jo

Harry Hobbes

26th Jan 2005, 05:19 PM

She is still in the tom thumb right now. Now here is my other thing. She keeps pulling her head down and I dont know why. She will still do it when I try to slow her down and she will do it at a walk and a trot also. Your horse is reacting to the anticipation of the pain caused by that Tom Thumb. She's trying to get away from the hardware in her mouth because she has been hurt by it.

You (and all other humans) exhibit similar behavior when you get hurt: you avoid/evade the thing that hurts you. The horse is doing the same.

This behavior is a normal reaction to harsh force (and the resulting pain) on the horse's mouth, and is to be anticipated in any horse where force is used on its mouth. As the prior posts above have indicated, the Tom Thumb is a harsh bit: IT IS DESIGNED TO HURT THE HORSE as a motivator.

Saying this another way, your horse is reacting because (to paraphrase Buck Brannaman) no one has ever offered lightness (in the mouth) to this horse. That is, the standard human method has been to put a "strong" bit in the horse's mouth and use more force. And the horse is reacting to that force, and the memory of the pain, and anticipation of more pain.

If you wish to turn this situation around, and train the horse to realize that it can respond lightly, without fear that the human will hurt it in the mouth, then put the gentlest bit (a snaffle bit) in its mouth, and teach it to respond to a soft cue.

Teaching it to respond to a soft cue requires that every human handling the reins learn to offer only light cues and have the patience to never engage in force. There are specific methods and techniques published by the various natural horsemen (such as Parelli, Lyons, Brannaman, et al) to teach you how to accomplish this; but it all starts with you abandoning force (pain) as a motivator, and pursuing lightness.

If you wish to see a list of training resources, then we can post them here for you.

Best regards,
Harry

amattox3

26th Jan 2005, 06:34 PM

The snaffle bit it the one with the two rings and the broken piece in the middle right??

amattox3

26th Jan 2005, 06:40 PM

Will I still get the same response from her, like stopping and everything??

Harry Hobbes

26th Jan 2005, 06:54 PM

Correct.

The snaffle has no "shanks", meaning that the rider has no "leverage" on the horse's mouth, only direct contact; thereby making it harder for the human to apply force. (The human has to work harder to apply force.)

But more importantly, the jointed mouth piece is designed so that the two sides of the snaffle work independently, as in the Tom Thumb (but without the Tom Thumb's shanks). This independence of each side allows the rider to train the horse to respond to lightness by asking for a bend (to one side or the other) with just one rein at a time.

Pat Parelli has a cliche: "You use one rein to control, and two reins to communicate." (Or was that John Lyons?)

Meaning that you use one rein to bend and thereby slow or stop an out-of-control horse (a horse that is not listening to your cues), and two reins to communicate cues to a horse that is listening to your cues.

So when your horse disregards your cues to slow/stop/turn, then you should use one rein only to bend the horse into a slower speed or stop. (Drop one rein and use the remaining rein to bend the horse until it transitions down.)

But if you pull back with both reins, the horse can actually brace against your even pull and keep on going, and you only sore the horse (emotionally, mentally and physically). This is because when you pull back with both reins, you are actually causing the horse to be straight, which is when the horse is most powerful.

When you bend the horse, he loses the power to continue going forward. This is why we bend the out-of-control horse with one rein only.

Put a snaffle in your horse's mouth and when it "goes out of control", then immediately bend it down to a stop. Then let it stand there for a moment while you pet it for responding to your cue. (It stopped for you, so you should reward it.) Then, start your work again, and repeat the bending down every time the horse gets out of control.

But never pull back with both reins.

Be consistent with this, and the horse will soon learn that it doesn't have to bolt off.

Best regards,
Harry

amattox3

26th Jan 2005, 07:05 PM

So eventually will I put her back in the tom thumb or just continue to use the snaffle?

Harry Hobbes

26th Jan 2005, 07:08 PM

Will I still get the same response from her, like stopping and everything?? Not until you train the horse for the response you want.

Understand hardware (snaffle bit, Tom Thumb bit, etc.) does not "train". Humans do the training. And your horse is not now trained to respond consistently (else it would respond correctly 100 percent of the time).

(The fact that you can ride the horse does not mean that it is trained. If it does not consistently obey your cues, it is not trained.)

The above post tells you how to get the horse back under control; but then once it is back under control, you have to train the horse for the response you want. You do that by learning how to train with either an instructor or school, or via the published training resources available from the natural horsemen and others.

Best regards,
Harry

Harry Hobbes

26th Jan 2005, 07:14 PM

So eventually will I put her back in the tom thumb or just continue to use the snaffle? When she is trained, you will never need anything other than a snaffle, and she will do whatever you want in the snaffle.

Saying this the other way around, the Tom Thumb (and other shank bits) is an indicator of a horse that is under trained (with the exception of very advanced spade bit horses). The need for leverage (i.e., shanks) is the indicator that the horse is under responsive (i.e, under trained).

Harry

Tootsie4U

26th Jan 2005, 07:22 PM

Oh boy! I see some bad feelings coming on that one.... :D

galadriel

26th Jan 2005, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by cvb
Sorry Galadriel is was unintentional - I just used "shorthand"...

Wasn't trying to pick on you specifically; I know you know that all US people aren't like that. I just keep seeing people in this thread commenting about "the norm" over here. I feel it's important to stress that it is not "the norm." The fact that SOME people may start horses so young is no excuse for doing it yourself, if you know better.

Many, many people know better and wait until the horse is physically and emotionally more mature. If you have learned better, then saying "everybody here does it" is simply not any kind of rationale.

Eli_Jay

27th Jan 2005, 01:30 AM

This topic is a little confusing. firstly,I don't think its correct to use a servere bit on a horse that young - and have you considered that her lack of response might be because you aren't giving her correct signals - or ones she understands? remember how green she is and you've got to teach her how to respond to aids, u can't just expect her to know them.
Horses shouldn't be doing fast work at 2, it strains their joints and can result in permanent damage.

amattox3

27th Jan 2005, 01:32 AM

galadriel
I'm sorry but I don't think there is anything wrong with breaking a horse at the age of 2 as long as you are careful with what you are doing and take your time. Besides I wasnt the one that broke her, I bought her that way. And we have broke several horses when they were 2 and are 10 now and have never had any problems.

cvb

27th Jan 2005, 08:45 AM

amattox

I have a horse at home who is 33 this year. He just stopped working in his late twenties.

But some of the horses that he used to compete against had to stop years earlier because of the physical and mental stress when they did too much too young.

Ok - so it doesn't HAVE to happen - but it is more likely, if you stress a horse at a young age, that there will be damage that doesn't show up straight away but shows up later.

Scans of horses legs show the state of the growth plates in their legs. These do fuse at different ages in different breeds. BUT - stress on bones and joints before the growth plates fuse DOES cause long term damage.

And thats only the physical stuff...

Yes, you weren't the person who backed this horse. But sympathetic training NOW will make a big difference. Remember it isn't just about physical strength and maturity and ability to cope with work, its about their mental state as well.

How mentally mature are most 8 year old kids ? Versus an 18 year old ? Yes you get some hughly intelligent young kids that can do advanced exams etc - but they still don't have the mental and emotional maturity of someone 10 years older doing the same work....

Eli_Jay

28th Jan 2005, 07:10 AM

I totally agree with cvb. it wasn't you that broke her, but that doesn't mean u have to keep going on the same track. y not work on ground work? parelli? u should be thinking about the horses needs. u could scar her for life by working her that strenuously.

Katie_85

28th Jan 2005, 11:20 AM

Harry- Sorry, I disagree with you on the snaffle point. (And believe me, it's a first, I'm usually the one reading your posts shaking my head in agreement) What about reining horses? Who are trained to respons from your seat, not the bit. The ride in curbs. Or my area, out gaited horses. They don't gait as well in snaffles. Doesn't mean they're undertrained, just means they require something different. I do agree that many horses are put in curbs before they need it and their mouths are ruined by people who don't know what they're doing, but curbs do have a place and are useful under the right conditions.

cvb

28th Jan 2005, 11:42 AM

Katie - is this the comment you are disagreeing with ?

Saying this the other way around, the Tom Thumb (and other shank bits) is an indicator of a horse that is under trained (with the exception of very advanced spade bit horses). The need for leverage (i.e., shanks) is the indicator that the horse is under responsive (i.e, under trained).

cos I think the key word here may be "indicator"...

i.e. if you see people resorting to a curb bit for CONTROL reasons, it is probably a good clue that the horse has not been trained to respond to light cues etc.

But if you see people riding in a curb/shanked bit where actually they could just take the bit off and not a lot would change ;) then its a different matter....

You might see a horse and rider that are trained to a "very advanced spade bit horse" level, but using some other bit.

I have a 9 year old mare that I would have problems competing in US cos she's still in a snaffle. (age limit is, I think, 6 years ?). But I've only ridden her in a curb bit on very rare occassions cos everything I want to work on, I can work on in a snaffle, and why confuse life ! Once she is going well in snaffle, then we will think about it a bit more.

Same with my old cob - he could go v.nicely in a double bridle. But we didn't do it very often cos we didn't need to :D

I'm kind of fussy about my horses - I want a horse I can stop in a snaffle. If I can't, I'll work on the training til I can, rather than going for a stronger bit. I DID use stronger bits on my cob - but he was 18 at the time, had been away and "untrained" for 6 years, couldn't cope with the same level of schooling AND had no brakes :rolleyes: so on specific occasions where there was a safety issue he had a dutch gag with 2 reins. Actually this was about him being "under-trained" and about me handling it with gadgets rather than training - so this is one case which Harry's point fits.

I'm not sure you could say that Grand Prix dressage horses with double bridles were all "under trained" tho ;) (hhmm - wonder how many GP horses you could "just take the bit off and not a lot would change"... :eek: )