Ground Manners

[Silver1]

I have a friend on my personal website that is having trouble with her colt. Here is a some of the post:

"My Shetland Colt has suddenly started kicking, it's really fustrating cause i can't get anywhere near him. We see him every second day to feed him but he bites but he's never kicked before. Well i was patting him... and well he had started swinging his hindquarters around on other days. But a couple days ago he threw up both hind legs right into my legs. Luckily i was standing closer so i got his legs more than his hooves.

Is there any way of stopping a pony from kicking?"

The colt is ungelded (I will be posting to suggest gelding might calm him down.) But in the mean time can anyone give advice on some ground training for the horse? I've never been around a horse that kicks on the ground.

I know for a fact she takes good care of her horses as a rule, I don't think you could give much better care then hers.

[Tootsie4U]

Have a bucket ready to toss at him when he kicks. Then proceed to invite him back and behave himself. If he kicks out again, toss the bucket again.

There are three drastic behaviors that stand for drastic measures: kicking, biting and striking. (John Lyons theory)

He who causes the other to move their feet (move out of the way) is leader. Using the bucket will allow your friend to do so without getting hurt. It is important for her to invite him back so he does not become afraid of her.

[shandy84]

I agree with tootsie he needs something to scare him into not wanting to do it again, something like a bucket is less likely to get agressive responses and yet may stop him from thinking he can get away with it

[nakedescapee]

IMHO... it sounds like a lack of respect to me. I would work on join up. Drive him away until he decides that his person is the boss. And, in the words of my sister, an excellent horse woman, "Smack the crap out of him... don't let him get away with that!!" Her advice has nearly always worked for me. ;)
Good Luck

[Dizzy]

You don't say how old he is, or what handling he's had.

With you friend saying that she can't get anywhere near him, but he's fed every second day - how is his feed presented to him. Is he caught then fed, or approached because he has come for his feed.

Manners are taught and respect is earned, and niether should be directly related to recieving a feed.

I'd advise bringing him in, a quick brush, pick out his feet, then give him his bucket, and turn him back out. 20 minutes tops.

If she has no where to bring him in, I'd still advise that she catches him and has him on a head collar and lunge rope, checks him over, and picks out his feet. Then when she's ready to feed him, makes him back up and wait until she places the bucket. Then hold the rope but leave him to feed.

If he's threatening, send him away with the lunge rope, but at the same keep hold of him, remain passive but lift the bucket and turn your back on him, but keep your eye on him. Don't invite or deter him, let the next move be his, if he chooses to graze, put the bucket down so he can see it, when he approaches lift it and again make him back up and then let him have it.

As Tootsie says he who causes the other to move thier feet is leader, is very true. My horses would never dream of sticking thier head into a bucket I'm carrying, but put those buckets into my husbands hands and all hell lets loose.

You're friend must teach that colt respect, and that is only achieved through handling. I know several stallions, who all have maners to die for.

Bear in mind that mares are in the same boat as stallions, they are also hormonally entire, just as we humans are. I used to ride an Arab stallion out and never had a problem. There are many stallions who race and show jump, being entire is natural, but young horses can be difficult and its up to to teach them respect.

[Bay Mare]

Originally posted by nakedescapee
And, in the words of my sister, an excellent horse woman, "Smack the crap out of him... don't let him get away with that!!" Her advice has nearly always worked for me. ;)
Good Luck

I'm sorry, but that isn't MY definition of an 'excellent horse woman'.

I agree that kicking needs to be reprimanded but ABUSE is never the answer. You may get a compliant horse but it is then through fear rather than respect.

If you did something wrong and I 'smacked the crap' out of you would you respect me or be frightened of me? Maybe you'd even rebel and behave even worse!

[nakedescapee]

ABUSE is never the answer.
lol... I did not mean to imply that the horse should be tied up short and gone after with a stick for 2 hours! Unless a person goes out with the intention of really beating/abusing a horse, you can't hurt a horse with a smack. There is nothing wrong with a smack as long as the 3-second rule is followed.

You can't honestly say that you have never given your horse a smack when it has acted up. It is just like a smack on the bum of a child to teach it the meaning of the word "no." ;)

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by nakedescapee
There is nothing wrong with a smack as long as the 3-second rule is followed.


Do you know WHEN and under what circumstances the three second rule is called for? It is not meant to be used often or else its purpose is defeated.

Smacking never teaches respect - ever. Both adverse physical contact and the three second rule should be used as a last resort and only to VERY serious behavior. Smacking at trivial behaviors is counterproductive. I'd hope someone points this out to your sister.

Good reply from Dizzy. Overall ground manners require that exact sort of work and with a colt, it'll require alot of it. However, to get by the immediate threats, your friend will need to be obvious to the little guy and thats why I recommend carrying a small bucket. Be warned though, if she doesnt fix this now the situation will only get worse (if he's left in tact).

[nakedescapee]

should be used as a last resort and only to VERY serious behavior
If you re-read my original post, I first suggested join up. Kicking and biting people IS very serious and calls for an immediate and tough response to curb the behavior as quickly as possible. A woman in my county was nearly killed when a horse bit her neck and she would have bled to death if help had not been nearby. Another woman had her arm literally torn off by a horse who grabbed her, picked her up and swung her around by his teeth. I'm sure you can think of dozens of serious kicking injuries or even deaths. These behaviors are not something to be trifled with... people can be killed.

[Tootsie4U]

Join up came first in the paragraph but it seems to read like this:

Try join up AND smack him.

Thats merely how I interpreted it - I've been wrong many times before :) And its really besides the point. My point was to convey to others reading your post that the three second rule and smacking aren't and shouldnt be common place.

Join up with a young horse isnt *always* a great idea as I've seen join up take as much as 45 minutes with the stubborn ones and running a horse that young for 45 minutes isnt ideal.

I still stand by my advise Silver:
"Walk softly and carry a big stick" - or in this case, a bucket :) Its a metaphore people! :D:D:D

[nakedescapee]

I do not always convey a clear message... sorry for the confusion. :)

[cvb]

hmmmm..... just been over-dosing on Mark Rashid....

interesting points he makes about "alphas" vs passive leaders.

I don't want to be an alpha, I want to be a passive leader.

I'm still getting my head round this but I think the "smack" idea is part of alpha behaviour.

What I'm not so clear on yet is what the "passive leadership" equivalent is... I think it might be a block and/or disengage of hindquarters (away from you)...

any ideas guys ?

[nakedescapee]

Hmmm... I had not heard of Mark Rashid until just now.... checked out his site... looks like a real good concept to me. I can see that the whole smacking thing would fit into the alpha concept but even a passive leader is going to discipline a horse that is out of line.

Thanks for bringing up Rashid's name. I'm going to look into it more thoroughly... I'm always looking for new ideas and training concepts... keeps it fresh, ya' know? :)

[Tootsie4U]

A smack is negative reinforcement for Bonfire. Its attention and thats the only way he sees it. We solved the biting, kicking, striking thing a long time ago. He was reprimanded with a sharp swat of my dressage whip on the offending leg. When he bit, he thought he was going to die (Lyons says to go all out, even smacking the neck with an open hand, to actually make the horse *think* he's just lost his life).

I have yet to read Rashid although Im somewhat familiar with his views.

I would guess your passive leadership would be along Parelli's first four phases... dunno, just my guess

[chev]

Discipline doesn't necessarily mean smacking though. I very rarely smack my horses and never smack my kids - I don't need to. Nor does the Alpha mare in a herd, either, before anyone comes up with that. I spend a lot of time watching my 'herd' and the only time I ever see them make contact is during play or sparring (aside from friendly contact that is). Discipline consists mainly of pulling vile faces and threatening body language. The only one who has been kicked and bitten is Rhodri, but he is a bit short on brain.

Smacking kids doesn't teach them anything about the meaning of the word 'no' - it teaches them that you're prepared to hurt them. A child that's too young to understand 'no' won't learn it because you smacked them.

I'd be driving this colt right away the minute he turned his back on me. Waving arms, a loud 'No' and forcing him out of your space and away before he actually gets as far as kicking should start to earn his respect. Andy tried kicking me when we first had him. I've never smacked him once - making him back down and move away, and keeping him there til he softened, was all that was needed.

Ok, so if this colt doesn't listen to that then more is needed - maybe a quick smack, but it's unusual to find a horse that determined to kick.

[Harry Hobbes]

What I'm not so clear on yet is what the "passive leadership" equivalent is... Neither is the horse.

Because horses are generally not well versed with marketing (and marketing catch phrases).

All of the talk about "alpha" being different from "passive leadership", versus some other seemingly politically-correct euphemism is marketing differentiation, and means absolutely nothing to the horse. But it does serve the human.

Rashid, Lyons, Parelli, et al, are selling publications and mechandise, and to do that without violating various copyright statutes, but more importantly, gain a market niche, they each must be unique to some extent. What better way to differentiate than to create and expound a new concept: something cerebral and intangible.

In point of fact, if one wants to "get into the business", one must create a unique product model and the verbage to differentiate that model, or else sign up with one of the extant "certification" programs (Parelli, Lyons, Roberts, etc.). Rashid is merely differentiating from the others.

But this is valuable in itself, because such demarcation and differentiation of intangible concepts and verbage serves (and also panders to) various groupings of humans with various belief-sets. (Such as the belief-set that attempts to equate "smack" - a physical action - with "abuse" - a moral judgement.)

In other words, if nature is too harsh for our sensibilities, Rashid (and Parelli, Lyons, et al) can show one a way to [i]feel better about it. Let's label that: "Passive Leadership" (or Join Up, Dancing with Horses, or whatever).

When one considers the current state of humanity vis-a-vis horses, this is a probably good thing (in a narrow context).

Best regards,
Harry

[chev]

Originally posted by Harry Hobbes
Such as the belief-set that attempts to equate "smack[ing]" - a physical action - with "abuse" - a moral judgement.)

When in fact driving a horse away from you where he is left feeling vulnerable, isolated, and frightened, might be considered more like abuse by the horse himself than a quick smack would - if horses made such moral judgements.

[Ashby]

Hey everyone
I'm Silvers friend who is the owner of Buddy.
I've got a common problem of posting somewhere needing help and not really giving the correct evidence to find the correct solution. However i go not want to hit Buddy, my friend who owned him before me use to and he would rear in defence. How that i have owned him i have never hit him and he no longer rears at me which i am very thankful for.

Okay... starting from when he was a foal up to 6 months he was perfect. He never kicked or would bite anyone, you could have him on a lead rope and he would confidently walk away from his dam no worries in the world. He always seemed extremely independant to me. Then my friend use to make him 'pose' for pictures which would usually result in her bending over him and lifting him on his side (which he disliked with a passion)

His dam and the other shetland were sold when he was around 6 months and he was left in the paddock alone for a better part of 6 months... maybe more. He wasn't really handled and my friend would usually run into the paddock and chase him to make him gallop.

Finally... i bought him and within a couple months had him on a different property because my friend was moving. He was to share a paddock with 5 boar goats and 2 sheeps and learn to become friends with electric fences which he was use to barbed fences at my friends.

At first he behaved so bad they would have to remove him from the paddock, how i don't know. He would bite and kick and chase the goats and sheep until they either hid in the trees or fell to the ground in submission.

He's been much better behaved no and doesn't chase them, he usually is found on the other side of the paddock from them when we see him.

This is the routine i use everytime i see him:

Go into the shed and grab his feed putting it in a blue bucket. I grab his mane comb, body brush and hoof pick and make my way out to the paddock. Jumping the fence i pat Buddy and say hello giving him the bucket (We don't have a feed container for him yet that stays in the paddock). Starting with a good solid brush all over. Then i would pick out each hoof individually and then proceed to his mane. He use to try and bite me everytime i did his hooves but he doesn't seem to bite much anymore when he's being fed (He's a pain in the *** to lead!) Now... he's suddenly starting swinging and kicking. I can't get near his back legs anymore, only near his face. If i try and pick his hooves when he's being held and no food he'd try and eat me alive. After he has finished eating i would give him a pat and then we would have to leave.

I know i need to spend more time on him but he really is hard to put up with. I love him heaps and i don't want to sell him but i NEED to stop him biting and kicking. How do i gain his respect? he has no respect for other animals or people... and i hate to say it but even tho he's a shetland he's getting dangerous.

and just to add... i've tried doing join up... it's hard to try and send him away when he feels like eating you... :(

[Ashby]

Just to add... i believe he is around 1 and a half years old now

[cvb]

don't want to hijack the thread - so am happy to start this elsewhere if need by - but Harry - I don't agree !! :eek:

In my little group of 3, I have a clear example of an Alpha and a PL.

My mare is doing all the "alpha" stuff. My old chap does the PL thing to a T.

He has never been into all that fuss and bother, but the horses that he is with just always seem to gravitate to following his lead.

There was a classic example this summer. Red (the old guy) doesn't like to be around Fi cos she bosses him and he can't cope with it (stiff, and sore etc). But Dudley (gelding) wants to be by him. And Fi wants to be with Duds and/or them both.

So starting position is Red and Duds standing together. Fi walks over to try and join them. Red very calmly just walks away - no fuss, no speed, just removes himself. Duds - of course - follows Red. And Fi follows Duds.... until there is enough distance again between Red and Fi when he stands again...

He just kept doing this til she got the message - that close and no closer.

Its a very different style of behaviour and always used to confuse me cos I knew what was said about Alphas, and it just didn't seem to fit.

By the way, this has also happened in much bigger groups as well - there has been an Alpha in the group, but it wasn't Red. And Red still ended up being the leader in a lot of situations...

[Tootsie4U]

Isnt it called Alpha's and Beta's?

Dudley prefers Red, but how does he respond directly to Fi? Im curious.

Bonfire plays both roles. He demands the alpha position, but he isnt aggressive unless he's challenged and all the horses follow him around. There has only ever been one situation where there was a horse (old TB) over him.

[cvb]

not if I remember right - the "beta" is the second in command, which is not the same thing. An "omega" is the bottom of pack/herd and the scapegoat for everyone's woes.

Duds just sort of ignores Fi when she tries to boss him. They get on quite well together but he's still firmly bonded to Red. When she bosses Duds, he sort of pulls a face back and does what she says (gets out of her way, goes where she wants him etc). They both pull faces at each other but rarely make contact, but its Duds that gives way to Fi not the other way round.

Fi isn't on "mutual grooming" terms with either of them yet - unless its over a fence :rolleyes:

When she came into season late last year she flirted oturageously with Red - which was interesting cos she's not done that in any of the previous 18 months she's been here. And not a change of environment or anything to trigger it. He just put up with her - but interestingly did actually allow her into his personal space, which he doesn't normally.

I thought it might be a good sign but they've gone back to previous "safe distance" again.

I did take Duds out one day and Fi and Red got pretty close together. But I think thats cos Fi had no choice but to negotiate on his term (she is very herd-orientated).

[nakedescapee]

Ashby... I don't mean to trivialize, but he is soooo cute! This is your "man-eater?"

From your description, it sounds like he is a bored adolescent who is challenging your authority. You may want to try changing your routine a little and work with him for 20-30 minutes *before* you feed him. If he will only let you near his head at this point then start there and then gradually work your way to his rump a little bit every day using an approach and retreat method. Try to always end on a good note and then his *reward* is getting to eat. Get some good help to hold him on a lead rope this will, in turn, help him learn to lead and tie.

Since he was left without a herd and chased around by a predator for fun at an early age, then I would not expect join up to work very well as he will not understand. It sounds like he needs a ton of trust work without letting him get away with his antics. If you act and react consistently to his behavior he will learn to trust and respect you... it will not happen overnight.

Read as much as you can about how horses communicate and learn. There is a ton of information available free on-line.

Good luck.

Harry... I agree completely... well said!

[Tootsie4U]

Thats what I mean - your Red would be the Beta - second in command to Fi because he still follows her suggestions but is dominant over Dudley? Its neat how these things work.

I still haven't worked out the passive leadership thing on my own yet...

[cvb]

Red follow what Fi said !! I think not ! ;)

He stays out her way - but he does NOT do what she says.. he does his own thing....

Beta as second in command has similar behaviour to Alpha ... i.e. is not "non-confrontational".

Thats whats interesting about this little group - cos the effective leader is Red, but the one doing all the Alpha stuff is Fi.

[Tootsie4U]

Ah! That is interesting then.

[cvb]

can't quickly find a decent source on this - loads on dogs but often quite waffly

still, here's the man himself on passive leadership http://www.markrashid.com/CTHArticlePassiveLeadership.html

[Ashby]

nakedescapee: Yes that cute and adorable little pony is a man eater!


Okay... i've decided to keep a little write up on everything that happens when i go and see him and try new things. I did the usual routine but i thought i might try something different with him... which my dad was greatly disliking.

I let him eat out the bucket and i stood at his head because it was the only safe place for me to stand. i was making my way patting him on the neck, then withers and then his stomach. Any further and he didn't really like it much.

I thought i might try something new... it was pretty stupid when i think about it later on and i don't think i achieved anything.

I grabbed his bucket and got his nose out of it... he then swung around and started bucking. I stepped backwards and waited for him to come TO me. If he did without swinging around and trying to kick i would let him eat. But more than not he would start his frenzy and i'm not extremely tall so his hooves were reaching my head height when he really went for it. At one stage i got him walking towards me but overall my dad basically demanded me to get out of the paddock after i almost clobbered one in the stomach.

Well... i didn't achieve much, i was hoping on getting a halter on but it proved to be too dangerous in the mood he was in.

I'm not sure what to do tho... he's due for his Strangles-tetnus injection... how can i get it in him if he goes nuts?

[cvb]

I know you already said ....I thought i might try something new... it was pretty stupid when i think about it later on and i don't think i achieved anything.

the thing is, how was the horse supposed to know what you were going to reward ? He'd just have to guess and for all he knew you wanted him to buck :rolleyes:

You need to set it up so he knows what "good" is.

[Esther.D]

Is it just inspired by food? Or is he like that anyway? I would certainly agree with you not letting him eat while he behaves like that. In fact as soon as he started doing that I would totally remove the food and not even think of introducing it again until he was totally calm again. In fact if it is not essential to him I would even stop feeding him for the moment or look at feeding in a different way.

Interestingly cvb, Mac is just like Red - he never does anything he is 'told' by anyone, even Pablo, and the others tend to do what he says, yet he has never been seen to use any force (and I have owned him for 14 years). Pablo is alpha boss and will chase the shetlands and bite them if he feels so inclined, whereas Mac seems unmoved by this and ignores him, even if nipped. Fascinating stuff isn't it?

[Ashby]

I'm actually starting to think that maybe he was hit in the back legs or rump which is making his buck.

He never use to so i don't understand why he suddenly started kicking. Is it possible that he backing into the electric fence or her was hit by someone with something quite hard on his back legs? I know that the man he's staying with doesn't like him much and finds him a pain when feeding the goats...

and idea's at all that might help? i don't really have a small area to work with him in join up... and my dad thinks that maybe the goats are causing his behavour...

There are lots of theories but i just want it to stop and if there is any solutions i'll give it a try.

[nakedescapee]

Horses thrive on routine and consistency and, from your description, your pony needs a lot of it. My prior post about smacking him was way off because I didn't have all the information. This pony doesn't need a smack.

It was a good try for you to change his routine just be very slow, calm and methodical in your approach. Try not to disturb him while he is eating but don't feed him right off the bat, let him earn it. The idea is to let him know he can be safe and relaxed with you near him.

Here's an example: When you go to feed him, take a lead rope with you (no halter) and leave the bucket OUT of the paddock. He will come to you expecting to be fed. Put the lead rope on the ground where he can see it and smell it. When he approaches you, don't look him in the eye. Move slowly. Put out your hand palm down and let him sniff it. Rub and scratch his neck as much as you can without looking him in the eye. Making eye contact with a horse is percieved by the horse as a threat. Try to find his "sweet spot" and scratch like crazy. ;) If he turns his butt to you just get out of his way but don't react sharply, stand your ground and wait for him to return to you. Don't look directly at him. It may take a while. When he does return, rub his neck just a little more then give him his feed and leave him alone to eat it. When he is done eating remove the bucket and lead rope from the paddock and walk away. Do this everyday for as long as it takes for him to begin to trust you. It may take a week or it may take a month. Don't give up.

Once you have his trust, then start to slowly expand on what you do with him. For example: once he will stand politely and wait to be fed, then, while you are scratching him, slowly and quietly slip the lead rope around his neck and take it off immediately and scratch some more. Do it every day and, eventually, you will be able to leave the lead rope around his neck for a longer period of time and perhaps lead him with it just around his neck. Then you can expand on that by putting on a halter.

It sounds like you are kind of on your own. Find a knowledgeable horsey friend or an instructor who can come out and work with you.

With regard to shots, your vet will know how to get the shots into him. Just let the vet know what the situation is before he comes.

Good luck and keep us updated. :)

[nakedescapee]

the man he's staying with doesn't like him much and finds him a pain when feeding the goats...

If the man is chasing him off when feeding the goats, then he is inadvertanly reinforcing the pony's early life experience of being chased by a predator. It sounds like your pony can't trust people, other than you, not to chase it. He is defending himself from a perceived threat.

[Tootsie4U]

Originally posted by Ashby
he then swung around and started bucking. I stepped backwards and waited for him to come TO me.

*Shudder* wrong thing to do sweetheart.

In horsey language you've just told him he has power over you.

The horse who is able to make another horse move out of the way is boss. You also let him decide if and when to come into your space. Any horse who can enter and leave another horses space at will is the dominant horse.

Its a tough situation because you also have to get out of the way for safety reasons... horses aren't easy...

[Silver1]

Ashby: Just a suggestion, but why don't you wear a helmet when working with him, since his feet are reaching your head?

[chev]

Have to echo Tootsie there. The one thing you can't afford to do is move out of his way.

Whatever started him kicking is irrelevant in one way - it's unacceptable behaviour whether he's doing it for offensive or defensive reasons.

He may well be using it to make sure you stay away when he feels vulnerable, but you won't make him feel any less vulnerable by doing what he wants - you actually reinforce the behaviour.

Watch his body language before he kicks - if it's fear-induced, he'll show signs of tension before he kicks. His face will be tense, his ears will be flicking from one place to another, he will clamp his tail down and tuck his hocks under him. When you see these signs, you know what you're doing is worrying him, and you can take the pressure off before he feels he has to threaten you. Don't move away - just take a step back to where he was comfortable, and when he relaxes, then you can start again.

It does sound like he's got you where he wants you though. You took his food away, so he tried to drive you off it - something that's worked in the past. In this case, his body language will be different - tail will be carried higher, he may raise his head, and he'll pin his ears. If that's what you're getting, you need to stand your ground and back him right off straight away.

Chasing him away won't in itself create this behaviour. I regularly walk through my field with a bucket - any of the six ponies in there that gets too close gets chased away - in no uncertain terms. They are all still happy, confident ponies that come straight over to me the minute they see me. It's about respect - they have to respect what I say - I'd be trampled if they didn't. But that doesn't mean they feel threatened, or afraid to approach, or defensive.

Silver1 has a good point - a hat would protect you and might help make you and your dad feel more confident about handling this.

[Ashby]

Well my dad has offically stopped coming into the paddock and if he is he'll be a good 10 meters away patting the goats.

I've been reading his body language and i'm beginning to understand when he's going to swing by his movements.

Although every time he eats his ears are always pinned back, they are very rarely forward. Is he just over protective of his feed aswell? If a goat approaches his feed he'll throw his head up and try and bite her and if she doesn't leave he'll chase her away. The goats get the front side which i've heard is the agressive and i get the back end, the defensive.

When i feed him i'm starting to just hold his bucket there and patting him on the neck, his typical signs before swinging is 1. Ears Back (usually aways are) 2. Head up, 3. Slashing Tail, 4. Nose scrunched up.

That's basically what i can gather in the time he does it till the hooves come flying towards me.

I'll try your suggestion nakedescapee tomorrow when i see him.

It's so annoying! a couple weeks ago we were going perfect, i would go in his paddock and just walk around and he would follow me without trying to bite. I could just run and he'd run beside me, i stop he would stop and we'd race (he always won) but no... i don't think he would do that anymore.

Should i maybe stop feeding him his mix (Complete O) until he behaves to a suitable way that he deserves it? but i kinda figure he woudln't understand what i was asking.

[chev]

What you describe is a colt who knows exactly where he stands in teh herd - at the top! He's not being defensive. He's asserting himself over you, and using a method he knows will work. The pinned ears, raised head, wrinkled lip and swishing tail are all threats used by horses telling another to get out of their way - it's aggressive behaviour, not defensive.

If he lacks confidence in people, that would contribute to his behaviour - horses that feel anxious do sometimes react in an aggressive way. But make no mistake - he's not telling you he's worried, he's telling you he's boss. A scared horse will run - not turn round and threaten you.

It sounds like at some point he's decided he's higher up in the herd than you are. He's gone from following you to leading you. I'm wondering about the races he won?? It's not always a good idea to put yourself in a position where a horse 'wins' - especially when it's a colt you're talking about.

I think both you and he might benefit from some round-pen work - join-up can be very useful for establishing you as boss in situations like this, and earning his trust and respect at the same time.

Putting him back in his place is important - a horse that knows he can push a human around is a dangerous thing. He needs to realise that you are in charge, not him.

Not feeding him until he 'deserves' it won't work - he won't understand that concept at all. What you must do is insist that he listens to you and respects you while his feed is there. Don't let him near you, or it, untl he drops his head, and has at least one ear on you. When he stand quietly, facing you, with his nose down and his body rlaxed, then you can put his feed down for him. I'd be inclined to walk away and let him eat. Make sure he gives you respect before he gets any reward at all.

[shandy84]

Just to add on to what Chev says, I had similar problems with Bramble when i first got her (although we were able to sort it out as a couple so it was slightly easier) it is possible to change his perception.

One thing my horses both know is to "wait" and this to them means head up at normal level about two strides from the bowl with their ears pricked, if you can tell him to wait just before you give it to him, when he is in a similar position, in theory if he catches on, you can say wiat at any time and he should slow down and listen (may be one for the future months when you have gained a little more respect)

Good Luck

[nakedescapee]

Originally posted by chev
Chasing him away won't in itself create this behaviour. I regularly walk through my field with a bucket - any of the six ponies in there that gets too close gets chased away - in no uncertain terms. They are all still happy, confident ponies that come straight over to me the minute they see me.

imho...

I agree, but only to a point. I, too, chase the horses off in the field when I need to, with no ill effects. But, like yours, these horses are already happy, well-adjusted, human-oriented horses. They already understand that being chased off is only that and are not worried about whether or not I will be eating them for dinner later. ;)

I, also, agree that it is a respect issue, but this pony must have trust before it will ever have respect and, based on the description of how it was raised and its current environment, it cannot trust humans.

Trust and respect go hand-in-hand. Mutual respect can only be gained through mutual trust. Trust must be initiated and nurtured by the human before it can become mutual.

[chev]

Originally posted by nakedescapee
but this pony must have trust before it will ever have respect and, based on the description of how it was raised and its current environment, it cannot trust humans.

Trust and respect go hand-in-hand. Mutual respect can only be gained through mutual trust. Trust must be initiated and nurtured by the human before it can become mutual.

I totally agree that trust and respect go hand in hand - but I don't agree that respect follows trust, neccessarily.

As an example; my gelding Gelfy came from an abusive background. Before we took him on, he'd been with a couple who were very keen to gain his trust. They were hyper aware of his background, and wary of scaring him off again. As a result, he learnt that in order to get his own way, all he had to do was throw a tantrum, or barge, or push his handler around.

It was only when I stopped working with him from the point of view that he'd had a bad start, and simply demanded his respect -as I would any normal horse - that we got anywhere. Once he began to respect me, his behaviour improved no end.

Sometimes it's best not to concentrate too much on the colt's start, but to simply assess him as he is, and work on solutions. He certainly isn't thinking about his start in life (which, to be honest, doesn't sound all that bad - it just sounds like the ideal way to teach a pony how to get people to do what he wants) - he's working on getting Ashby to jump when he says jump.

The fact that Ashby had seen improvements and was getting on fine until recently makes me think that, too. He really isn't showing fear reactions at all - he's learnt, through his start, how to manipulate people when he doesn't like what's going on. Right now, he'd rather not be touched in various places, so he makes sure he has Ashby trained to back off when he's not happy.

Gaining his trust will come as his respect is gained. Ashby has to give him a reason to trust her. Trust, for a horse, is not a case of simply showing it you won't hurt it, but also of showing him that you are worthy of being trusted - that you know your stuff, that you are leadership material. A horse cannot trust someone who won't stand up for themselves. Trust is about knowing that that person would keep him safe if he was in danger - and from his point of view, Ashby is more likely to run away - showing him that she won't, that she will stand up to him and keep him in line is a big part of building up trust.

edit to add - one of my ponies is far from being a well-adjusted, happy mare - she's a feral filly who came through the sales last autumn, and who's only experience of handling left her with some fairly nasty muscle damage in her neck. I still shoo her away with the rest - and she still comes back, even though as yet I haven't been able to touch her quarters, her legs, her feet. She still responds to confident handling. Being told to keep out of my space isn't frightening to her. That's what I'm getting at - not chasing this colt, but backing him out of Ashby's space each time he threatens - as obviously as she needs to. Unacceptable behaviour is just that.

[Tootsie4U]

*wild applause* to Chev!

[nakedescapee]

I see your point. :)

It is very hard to determine the best course of action given the impersonal nature of the internet.... that is, without actually meeting the pony and Ashby and seeing their interaction. I am simply trying to offer an opinion (for what is is worth) with the hope of encouraging creative thought.

Like I said in a previous post, I honestly think Ashby needs to find an instructor or other knowledgeable person who can be on site to help and guide her.

[Ashby]

Buddy's old owner who was my only real horse friend has moved out of state. I have one horse friend who is really timid around let's say... not bomb proof horses and i don't think i should be asking her for help with Buddy.

I'm not completely into the horse world yet and i don't know many people, i have my old instructor which i use to go to who is training a 3 year old Arab x Lippy colt but she charges more than what i have. She's also not a fan of Shetlands and Buddy could run out from underneath her stall doors.

If i must gain his trust what is the most effective may of doing that?


V This is a picture of Buddy when he was still running with his dam.

[Ashby]

Okay! hello again
I've just come back from seeing Buddy!
Now NakedEscapee i tried your example and it worked! he swing his hindquarters twice but i only moved a fraction but he didn't raise a leg. Firstly tho he began chewing on the lead rope. I started scratching him just below his jaw bone and his neck, and he just tried biting me. More like nibbling, he would walk around me and then began to nibble at the backs of my legs before turning around and nibbling my hands. I didn't look him in the eye but kept a watchful eye on him.

After that i started walking back to the gate, he walked behind me and slightly to the side. I got out and grabbed his feed and gave it to him.

All in all he didn't kick once or raise his hind legs at all. However he did tend to paw a fair bit when he was eating...

[nakedescapee]

Wow Ashby, that sounds wonderful! I'm so glad to hear that you had some success. :)
This description sounds like a more calm and controlled situation than your earlier descriptions.

Let him explore and chew on the lead rope. It sounds like he is also exploring you but don't let him chew on you. ;) The very moment that he makes a move to nibble on you, take hold of his chin, look him in the eye and say "no." Then, just go back to rubbing him. This will set a clear boundery of what is and is not acceptable. Just remember that any correction must be done immediately and then forgotten about just as quickly. A horse cannot connect things outside of about 3 seconds.

Another thought... I have read that horses experience a learning curve where they will be doing fine for a while and then will test their bounderies. So if at some time he seems to have forgotten everything that you have worked on, don't despair. Just stay consistent and he will come back around.

Don't worry about the pawing while he is eating, a lot of horses do this.

I'm sorry to hear that you haven't yet found another horsey friend. Perhaps talking to folks at the feed or tack store could help to network you into some horsey folks.

Keep up the good work! :D

[chev]

Sounds like good progress!

Can't add anything to what nakedescapee has said but wanted to wish you all the best with him. :)

[Ashby]

Thankyou so much for everyones input. I'll keep it going and if i get in a bit of trouble i know where to come for advice :)

Thanks

[Tarlor]

I agree that hitting horses is cruel BUT if it is a reprimand for bad behaviour and provided you do it immediately after the act, then the horse will learn. My horse usually gets the message when a give him a sharp tap with the whip. If the horse is REALLY playing up, then a little "stop that baby" isn't going to help. You need to bring them back to reality before you, the horse or someone else gets hurt.

[Ashby]

My friend use to hit him when he would bite tho... and he began to rear in defence i'm guessing.

Well i learnt this new habit the hard way (she didn't tell me he had started rearing) so... (This is back when i first bought him)

i went into the paddock and put on his halter and lead rope and started to walk, he stopped reared and slammed both hooves into my shoulders. There wasn't much force behind it but he got me on the bone and i sure wasn't going to let him do that to me again. Afterwards she told me that he rears...

Once thing he still does is if you raise you hand he will throw his head up. If you go to pat him on the head his head goes up... i haven't hit him at all and since my friend has gone he hasn't reared since which i am very thankful for.

I'm thinking there is a different way of telling him off other than physically hurting him because otherwise i won't get anywhere. He's much smarter than he looks!

I understand what you say, my riding instructor was walking down the hallway of her stable and one of her horses went to bite the little girl putting on his saddle. She walked over and slapped him as hard as she could on the neck just before he hit the girl with his teeth. She yelled out 'No' louder than i've ever heard before. Well that horse stood patiently while the girl continued tacking her up and hasn't bitten anyone since.

I guess it works with some horses but i think Buddy is an exception, he will find a way to get back at me instead of except the punushment.

BTW: This was ages ago, about a year ago... he doesn't rear anymore

[nakedescapee]

if you raise you hand he will throw his head up.

Sounds like he needs desensatizing. I have heard of a couple lof ways to "fix" a head-shy horse. The first is to rub and rub and rub all over his head so he knows he is not in danger of being hit in the face. The other is raise your hand over and over, just letting the horse react in a frightened manner. The moment that the horse doesn't flinch, you stop and rub. Then start over again. Bear in mind, he needs to be in a halter and lead rope though so you have control and stand slightly to the side so, if he does strike at you, he will not connect.

Have you gotten him into a halter yet?

[chev]

Originally posted by Tarlor
If the horse is REALLY playing up, then a little "stop that baby" isn't going to help. You need to bring them back to reality before you, the horse or someone else gets hurt.

I met a Welsh filly and handled her for the first time on Monday. First thing she did was turn her quarters at me and give me both back feet. I stamped my foot on the ground and said 'no' - she stopped, took a few steps back, dropped her head and gave up. She didn't even threaten to kick again.

She did, however, have a go at biting. I did the same thing again - stood up square, stamped hard on the ground, said 'no' firmly. One very sheepish little filly gave up and let me halter her.

If the horse is REALLY playing up, then you just have to REALLY mean it when you stand up and say 'no'.

[Ashby]

Every time i feed him i rub him on the neck and on the forehead. He usually doesn't mind it too much.

I'll try your idea nakedescapee. Yes, i have a rope halter.

He has actually stopped so much... aiming for me, more the goats. He's actually calmed down a bit but at the moment i don't think i will be acting like i've tamed him at all.

[Ashby]

This is a picture that was taken at the end of last year when we were moving Buddy to the new property.

On the left is his old owner (Amy) and myself on the right.

[Pink's lady]

I've had a read through all the posts, and am really pleased you seem to be starting to get there.

However, I was wondering why he hasn't been gelded yet? (I don't think it was in a previous post)

Although he's really cute, and seems to be nicely marked, there is little reason to keep him as a stallion. Of course, if your planning to breed form him......... However, most people look for temperament when looking for a stallion.

Apart from anything else, it going to make the rest of his life difficult. If, for some reason, you can't keep him forever, he'll be really difficult to find a new home for. And he'll never be able to live with other horses, esp mares.

I personally think you should get him gelded asap. It will improve his manners (athough it's too late to make a huge effect) apart from anything else. You don't seem to have too much experince in the world of horses (that wonderful, bitchy place :rolleyes: ), but you'd find having him entire is really unsual. It's not like keeping a dog entire - stallions require really skilled handling if they're not going to turn out to be little ****s! And very dangerous.

Anyway, good luck with the socialising. He will eventually make a really nice little pony.

P.S - getting a pony field companion might be a good idea.

[Rosie's Girl]

Harry I do agree with you and I also don't disagree with most/many of the other postings. I think, to a large extent, we are trying to interpret animal behaviour in human terms and the semantics of the terminology could keep us well occupied into the next millenium!! I use join up and I think it is an emotionally distressing (for the horse) but necessary process to go through if our two species are to live in an artificial but harmonious environment such as those we create for ourselves and our equine partners.

[Ashby]

Sunday 20th Feb UPDATE

Okay, since i last posted on an update a lot has happened since some good and some bad. I found out a couple weeks ago that Buddy has kicked a 4 year old boy (Our friends grandson) thankfully they were pretty laid back about it but he's alright now.

Since then Buddy, the goats and sheep have moved into a paddock about twice as large as the original one. This is completely chock a block full of feed! and e has put on weight since being in the paddock so were not seeing his as often to feed him now (every third day instead of ever second and cutting his feed proportion down slowly each time) The goats are all in kid and Buddy is still chasing them around... which means he will probably be moved back into the smaller paddock where it is basically dirt which means more manual feed.

With the kicking side of things he hasn't improved at all anymore, i thought i was getting some where but then out of no where he decided he didn't care and well... i think you understand. I've actually stopped going in the paddock with him now (yes i know! wrong thing cause he'll thinks he's reined over me) i'm going to start betting in there but making sure i'm fully equiped for a good buck.

Today i can't say i was scared but maybe nervous because i had to give him an injection. My dad wasn't going to pay a call out fee for a vet because i knew how to give injections and where abouts. The fun part was getting the halter and lead rope on and leading him to the small holding paddock to give the injection. If i thought he was hard to lead before it is hard now. I spent most of the time walking infront of him to avoid a swinging rump although the whole time he was chewing on the clip and lead line then trying to bite me. I just grabbed his lips and squeezed them, he didn't seem to care. He would put on the breaks and i'd put some pressure on the lead rope and he'd began to walk again. As soon as he figured we had food he walked perfectly fine, almost walking too fast for me!

Finally we had him tied up and his head in the bucket of feed, ever so carefully i cleaned the part on his neck (he only swung at me twice) i then stood close to the fence where he was tied, my dad came behind me holding his halter with one hand and his rump with the other, incase he swung giving me time to escape. Well... i got the needle in... check (no blood vessel) and then gave him the injection, moved back out and he didn't even move! if he could act like that every day i would be so proud!

Well he still bucks, kicks, bites... yea... overall a pain in the @ss but also so very beautiful.

I love his temperment, he is by far the smartest horse/pony i have ever met. If only i could channel that into something great and away from these horrible aids i would be so happy. I'm concidering teaching him to drive when he's older, it was a suggestion by Silver and i don't think it's that bad an idea, he was a very expressive trot and a nice looking pony. But that is definately something that would require professional training and when his bad problems are solved.

[chev]

It sounds to me like you really need to get professional help with him now. If you don't have the confidence to stand up to him and make him back off when he threatens you he will end up injuring someone. Even a small pony can kill a small child if they catch them with a back foot in the right place.

I'm sure he is beautiful, but he's also walking all over you, and he is just going to get bigger and stronger and more and more bolshy.

Gelding will help but it certainly won't cure this behaviour. Driving is absolutely out of the question until he stops kicking - the one horse you cannot drive is a kicker.

Please ask around and see if there's anyone that can come and work with you both.

[Ashby]

Okay *ponders on friends*

um... my dad isn't going to want to pay money tho... and i have no money

My friends father use to break horses in but i doubt he would help and another of my friends grandfather is an ex racer horse trainer but he woulden't even bother with a shetland, plus... i would hate to see if he got a belting by Buddy.

Apart from that is my old horse instructor... she doesn't even know i have a shetland and she'll say the same thing my english teacher told me about him.

"Shetland are a waste of time, money and effort. They're pathetic and useless"
:(

I'm pretty much alone in the horse world, all i have is myself and my books and my dreams and ambitions of having a calm pony that i can actually give a hug to without being attacked in the process

I'm too stubborn to sell him, he would probably be much better off in other hands but seriously... all the tears, begging, praying and countless years of wanting something so badly... i coulden't just get rid of it. It's hard to explain by writing, it's that bond that happens between a person and animal that is so strong and so long awaited you can't break it.

Call me a silly 16 year old girl but that's just how i feel

[nakedescapee]

My friends father use to break horses in but i doubt he would help and another of my friends grandfather is an ex racer horse trainer but he woulden't even bother with a shetland, plus... i would hate to see if he got a belting by Buddy.

Apart from that is my old horse instructor... she doesn't even know i have a shetland and she'll say the same thing my english teacher told me about him.

"Shetland are a waste of time, money and effort. They're pathetic and useless"

Chev is absolutely right... you NEED help. Don't sell the folks you referenced above short and second guess what their reaction to your request MIGHT be. Call one up and respectfully tell them that you need their help. Ask them if they could please make time one day to show you what to do. If they are worth their salt, they will take 20 minutes and come out and show you how to "fix" Buddy's behavior. If they won't, then find someone who will. Ask at the feed store or go to a tack shop and start up a conversation with someone, you will undoubtedly come across someone willing to come out and give you a hand... horse enthusiasts are notorious for showing off their knowledge. Join the local 4-H club or whatever agriculture club is available to you. Even if you can't make regular meetings, make contacts.

There is only so much NR folks can do from our computer keyboards half way around the world. You need someone on site.

Good luck.

[Mehitabel]

I'm too stubborn to sell him, he would probably be much better off in other hands but seriously... all the tears, begging, praying and countless years of wanting something so badly... i coulden't just get rid of it. It's hard to explain by writing, it's that bond that happens between a person and animal that is so strong and so long awaited you can't break it.

Call me a silly 16 year old girl but that's just how i feel

well, if you're not prepared to do the best thing for your pony, then you may well get called a silly girl at best. loving an animal means doing what's best for *them*, not what's best for us. we are the ones who hold all the power in the relationship, it is up to us to use it wisely and be responsible.

think of what is genuinely best for him, not you. it's his life we're talking about here.

[T-bred]

As far as hitting goes I don't smack Caesar when he bites because he doesn't respond to it. Now when I am leading him he tends to get very pushy and he tramples over me so I elbow him in the chest and that works.Caesar treats me like a horse in his herd, he loves me but when I get out of my place he lets me know(currently working on that). When my dad is walking him he has had times when Caesar has ran right through him and my dad just turned around and kicked him in the chest(now before anybody yells abuse it was not hard at all and Caesar just kind of looked at my dad came back to reality and from then on walked behind him). Caesar loves my dad the most out of everybody in my family and my dad is literally the ONLY person he respects. My dad LOVES being with the horses but occasionally he will give Caesar a kick and Caesar then realizes that he is not in charge. When my dad walks Caesar he walks him on a loose lead rope and Caesar knows not to trample my dad or to get in his space, but when we were boarding Caesar the people that brought him in were afraid of him so they would chain his nose and he acted horribly to that,so in the long run I think that my dads method has worked very well with Caesar.

Anna

[cvb]

Call me bitter and twisted - but dreams take work, and sweat and tears

Nothing wrong with having a dream - but then you need to engage with it.

It takes resources (time, money, etc)

You can learn how to deal with Buddy - the quickest ways will almost certainly take more money. But you can also educate yourself via training materials (books, videos etc). Or by listening a lot - for example on boards like this.

Either way, dreams also often involve sacrifices - for example, using the money you would spend on e.g. having a social life on something for your horse. This is not a dig, this is personal experience.

I would thoroughly recommend going along as an observer to "natural horsemanship" events in your area. It tends to be reasonable in terms of costs and you learn loads.

[Ashby]

Okay... tonight hopefully or tomorrow i'll get on the phone to my friends father and see if he will come out and see Buddy.

I've read lots of books on training and bought a special A-Z of Horse Behavour and Training specifically for him (before i bought him) I really do want to try join up again with him, the only time i'll have enough time is in about 2 weeks cause i can only see him for more than half a hour on weekends (this weekend i'm at the local show watching the horse events 9-5 pm)

I'm not sure what is best for Buddy... he seems pretty happy getting fat in a large paddock with goats to chase in his spare time.

I'm willing to give anything a go with him, *ponders on borrowing video recorder off friend and filming his behavour for ppl to see*

I really do need professional help... and natural horseman ship sounds like a great idea for him. Cause respect works better than force with him.

[cvb]

Cause respect works better than force with him.

Isn't that true for any of us too ?! ;)

[chev]

Glad you're going to try and get some help with him.

I'm sure he is happy getting fat in a paddock. The problem with keeping horses though is that even if getting fat in a paddock is all they do (and I have one of those too! :rolleyes: ) they still need to be easy to handle and safe around people.

Please remember that respect is not a one way thing - you already have a healthy respect for him.... it's his respect (or lack of) for you that's the problem. Force won't make him respect you - but nor will treating him so gently and nicely that he continues to push you around.

What is best for Buddy is having someone to work with him who can gain his respect, and teach him that his behaviour is not acceptable - before he hurts someone. If you can do that, then go for it. If you can't, you do need to find someone who can - whether with you, or through rehoming Buddy.

Lots of us on here have had the same dreams, and the same problems. The number of people who've had to give their horse up because they're not in a position to be able to work with them... well, let's just say there are many of us. Dreams are fine - everybody needs dreams. But dreams are just that - the reality is very different, and unless you have the confidence to be able to m,ake this work, that dream will end up a nightmare.

Join up sound like a really good idea - but make sure you have some experienced help with that. Join up if you've never done it before is not easy, and could actually create more problems if not done properly.

Fingers crossed for you.

[FreedomStar]

just curious, how've you been getting on w/ buddy lately?

[Ashby]

Well i have just retured home from seeing him tonight. We decided it was time to introduce our Australian Shepherd (Jake) to him.

Okay... for the bigger picture he has moved paddocks and is now by himself because he has been tormenting the sheep and goats.

We started off by just feeding him from the bucket and i've just been gradually running my hands along his chest and shoulder and i've been able to extend down towards his upper stomach without him having a strop.

We decided to put the halter and lead rope on him and i tried walking him around. He doesn't walk beside me, always directly behind me so i have to kinda walk sideways to keep an eye on him. He constantly tries to bite my hands aswell. He was very interested in our dog when we had then in the paddock together (Jake was on a lead) Once once did he try lunging at him which he was stopped in mid lunge by me, much to his dislike.

He reared once on me and i jerked the lead rope down (instinct) and he didn't try it again. When we were walking back towards the gate however he walked like a little angel! By my side... if not a tad fast, he didn't bite or do anything wrong. After that i let him finish his feed.

One good thing, my 12 year old sister loves him now and called him 'beautiful'! which is so rare coming from her, who doesn't like horses all that much.

[dotsanddashes]

Ashby,

just caught this thread - how are things going with him and where abouts in Aus are you?

[Ashby]

Hello,

Not much has changed, he moved locations to a cattle farm and has been there for about 6 months. Um... enjoys chasing their cattle and being charged by cows with calves. He has actually calmed down a bit because he is running with a much older gelding.

I'm currently speaking with a lady to agist him at her property which will only be about 25 minutes from my house instead of a hour where he currently is. So that is a step forward in the right direction.

I haven't really be able to do anything with him because of my final year of high school and with the distance problem. Hopefully with the new agistment i can begin working with him and hopefully, the lady can give me a few pointers in the right direction as well.