Loading after bad experiance - help

[Jessey]

My filly is a real sweet little lass, very stubborn at times but very sweet. I brought her in september in Wales and picked her up 3 weeks later so that the breeded could spend sometime getting her in a trailer. We went to pick her up and had her on the trailer in a little over 35 minutes, then we shut the ramps which was fine but when we shut the jockey door she pannicked and went full pelt backwards but there was no where to go she just managed to move all the rubbermatting a bit, we jumped back in and she stopped and had a few more pony nuts, we shut the jockey door again and she seemed a little upset but not panicing. We jumped in the 4x4 and off we went, not 50 yards down the driveway and she just tucked her nose behind the breast bar (we put CCTV in specialy for this trip) so I shouted for OH to stop and jumped out, by the time I got back there the breast bar was behind her withers and she was stuck, I just kept her calm and still while OH got the bar undone and she stood back up. It took us 5 1/2 hours to get her home and we didn't hear a peep from her all the way (other than the above mentioned).

My problem is now that she dosen't want to go back on the trailer. One saturday lunchtime I thought would be a good day to try again, we tried food, other horses going on and off, a lead rope between two of us laid accross her hocks, ignoring her. 6 hours later we were still stood there, it was getting dark and cold and everybody was very fed up. Next week same again.

Just to expalin how stubborn she is, we laid rubber matting in the stables, put shavings bed down at the back of stable, put horse in and hay, feed and water at the front of the stable. She seemed a little worried by the matting but figured she would get over it. When I came to put her out the next morning she had not moved all night, about 13 hours.

We did have one small success with loading her reacently, we put the trailer on the way to the field, and after about 3 hours of coaxing she walked on and presently jumped off, landing half on me. We gave her a treat and put her straight in the field.
Any thoughts and help very appriciated.

thanks in advance

J

Ps when I say about how long we tried to get her in for she did get breaks in that time.

[cvb]

Jessey, have you reviewed the Parelli Trailer Loading dvd at all ?

Also - did you know that someone did research on matting colours, and black is one of the "least preferred" by horses ?

When you put matting in, was she standing on it ? or not ? I think your staged approach is probably a good way to go, if only cos it will help with other stuff like bridges and on later on :)

But you need to find ways to make it to her advantage to work our mats and trailers. And learn by experience that its ok.

[Yann]

It sounds like she has been traumatised by that first journey, so is understandably reluctant to repeat the experience. The fear of matting may be related, if the same stuff that was in the trailer.

Apart from the fear and possible mistrust (loading = moving home again?) loading is a leading problem. Does she lead well and back up on command? If not that would be the place to start. Once a horse is leading well you can introduce the trailer into the equation and use pressure and release / advance and retreat to get the horse to follow where you want it and develop its confidence. Chances are doing this sort of work will also benefit the rubber matting problem too. I've not seen the Parelli video but I'd imagine that it will take the same sort of approach.

In your shoes with a horse that's possibly a bit phobic rather than reluctant you could do a lot worse than get some profesional help from a Monty Roberts Recommended Associate, I believe there's somebody in your part of the world. They will come out to you and work with you and your horse and the methods are sympathetic and effective. My reluctant loader was trotting loose with me up the ramp and into the trailer in half an hour:)

There's a list of RA's at www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk in the horse help section. Good luck:)

[RodeoDreamer33]

Hi!
I think I have a solution for you, I haven't tried it myself, but I went and saw Monty Roberts at a horse clinic talking about this and loads of other stuff. So maybe you could try. You have to make the horse want to go into the trailor. Not with food, but freely. I know, now, it probably seems impossible but it did with this horse too. Backing a horse up is one of the number one things we do for respect. After awhile of backing up, usually horses can get tired. Thats the point, we kind of wake them up and they say "Oh, OK, what do you want me to do because I don't want to back up anymore." So, you'll have to do repetition but it wont nearly be as long as 5 hours! Your strategy is not to go into the trailor until you say so. So your not forcing her right off the bat, your just kind of investigating it.

So, you walk up to the trailor and back up right before you would take the last step in. It will be something different for your horse because they are expecting that you are going to force them in. Then walk forward and back up again, walk forward and back up again. Just when you think that you would be jumping into the trailor, back up. And a hard back up, not a lazy back up. After repetition of the stopping and backing up before the trailor, he's gunna want to go in the trailor because the only two ways are back which is work or just going forward to something that really isnt that bad. After you feel like you've done it enough, atleast 15 times, try to get in. If she refuses again, start it all again. Make sure you get in the trailor with her. When you get in pat her and rub her down and then both of you turn around and jump off. Then do it again and everytime she goes in, give her a nice rub.!!!:) Please tell me how this works, I would like to know for myself!!

P.S. it is a lot easier to do this if you do some round penning, lunging, or ground work before you try backing up, to get some respect. I think it will work like it did with this other horse!!!

[Jessey]

I haven't looked at the parelli DVD, don't often buy these things cause often get them home and find they are not suited to what I want but if you recomend it I will give it a go.

The matting was black. She wouldn't stand on it, just squeezed her self as far back on the shavings as possible, when I went to get her out next morning she did that little shuffle before you jump thing at the edge of the shavings so I just kicked them forwards and she walked out - very tentativly. She dosen't mind the matting now so hope she will be better about the trailer, gonna try again saturday.

Not sure what would make it to her advantage apart from going to the field, thats the only thing she really likes.

Any ideas how I can discourage her from jumping off the trailer again, I don't really want to back her out as think that encourages them to refuse to go on. Shes normally very respectful when you lead and I also play games with her and even when we run round if I stop dead she will and will also do all she can not to touch me. I don't know if its the small space that bothers her after getting stuck under the bar, but I can lead her into our indoor school in absolute pitch black to go an put the lights on to play games with her and she just follows me in.

???????????????????????????

J

[cvb]

Jessey - will pm you re DVD

I took my mare out with my sister and her pony some time ago across the farm fields - and we came across a wooden bridge. She gave the most enormous jump to get over it :eek: Luckily I had western saddle on and managed to sit it :rolleyes:

Anyway - decided to prepare and plan ahead :D and got some sturdy wooden panels that you can get to build decks with, to make a form of "bridge".

Then we worked near it, then over it short ways, then along it long ways, then ask her to stand with all four feet on it... and now she goes "gosh THATS boring..."

You can do stuff like this - with tarp, mats, wood etc - and you know it will help later when you want to do trail classes ;)

But it all comes back to the same thing about going where you ask....

In terms of the "jumping out" - do you do any "squeeze" stuff with her on the ground ? Its the same thing but more controlled.

Basically what I am trying to say is break down the loading into the elements - going on a strange surface, going in a confined space etc, and work on them to build her and your confidence. Then add them back together :p

In terms of "her advantage" I was thinking more of the mats. eg. put the food and water first next to, and then ON the mat - and let her make the choice....

[Yann]

Any ideas how I can discourage her from jumping off the trailer again, I don't really want to back her out as think that encourages them to refuse to go on.

Interestingly, one of the things that was emphasised and we worked on when we had the session was that as well as loading calmly, the horse should also back off down the ramp on command and as straight as possible. This obviously avoids the problem of jumping or running back and falling off the ramp.

The more control you have over the horse's feet and where they go the less likely they are to refuse to go on. The key is for them to back off when you ask, not otherwise, so it tends not to be counterproductive. After all if you don't have a front ramp you need to be able to unload as safely as possible.

[Jessey]

Thanks all lots of good stuff here, keep it comin':D

Yann: When ever I thought she may go back and often before I was asking her to back up as I wanted it to be my choice not hers, so looks like were on the same wave lenght here.

RD33: I see what your saying here, I do lots of stuff to reinfore her respect for me as she did get quite bolshy at one point, but I don't want to make her see the back up as any kind of reprimand as she will have to do this freely when we get to ridden work.

Well I'm gonna give each idea a whorl, and knowing me, mix them up a bit and do what she responds to best.

Cvb: what the 'squeeze' thing?

thanks

J

[cvb]

sheepeish grin - trying to avoid too much parelli talk :rolleyes:

One of the "Games" is the Squeeze Game. This is basically asking your horse to pass through between you and something else, starting with a big gap and reducing as they get comfy with it.

Its starts between you and a fence/wall e.g. in a school. But you can extend it as you progress.

As Yann says, its about having control of their feet...

When you first ask, just about every horse will whizz through - keep the gap the same and ask again, and gradually they calm down. Then reduce the gap...

The "ask" is with a lift of the rope to lead them through the gap.

I know 7 games are on the web somewhere so won't repeat what is already written better elsewhere ;)

But - to add some personal experience.

My mum has a Fell pony. I have only done a little ground work with him and he still tends to invade your space. He also tends to find things like poles and blocks v.scarey :rolleyes:

So when I do squeeze work with him, I actually start with me on the fence side and ask him to go between me and a block that is, say, 1m off fence. This is somewhat safer until he stops rushy and starts thinking.... (he only HAS one brain cell to use, so you always need to give him time).

This is not "parelli" but it works...

Ooo - just remembered another exercise !!

One of the things you can do is

Start with 2 parallel poles on ground. Walk horse in and halt between. Then back out. At this stage, the front stays "open".

Now start to raise the poles using e.g. blocks. Keep up the practise. If you have some kind of cover/tarp, you can progress to laying tarp over the poles so the side starts to look solid.

And you can add a barrier at the front.

In your case, you could also add the matt on the way in once the horse was happily doing the rest...

This mimics the loading process but in a non-confrontational situation....

Sounds daft but it is amazing how many horses are concerned about even walking between two raised poles.

[larri]

I had exactly the same situation with Safi - only ever been on a box once when I bought her as a yearling, took two lots of sedation, several people and a a few hours to get her loaded. She reared up and got her front legs caught when box started moving...absolute disaster.
I didn't try again for over three years!!

I "borrowed" my old YO's box and just started off with lead lessons around it. then progressed to a sqeeze type game with the ramp down and her walking past it. After a couple of weeks I asked her for a foot on the ramp..then two, asked her to back off in between. Finally went through games and then walked up my self asking her to follow, she got half way and backed off...I lunged her and asked her again....success. we repeated this a few times. Next week it took one ask and she went in. Kept this up without going anywhere, a step at a time (ie ramp up etc)

Then we did it with the box started and finally - after I think it was six weeks she went on a trip in the box.
I was determined that we would take one very small step at a time so that she didn't feel too pressured.
When the time came to move her over to Essex the transporter turned up in a bright pink box and I thought "eek" but Safi walked up, took a sniff and looked at me as if to say "err wrong box mum" but then walked straight in, tied and off she went!!

Just break everything down to the tiniest stages, and reward every try - ignore the fails...she will get there!

[cvb]

Thanks Larri - you reminded me of something I should have said to make the Squeeze comment make more sense...

when you get to see the loading DVD, one of the things he does is "squeeze" across the ramp.

i.e. not even trying to get the horse in but just getting them to step onto ramp, across, and down again.

Again - good training for future trail classes :D AND good work as a step towards loading.

But you need to do some initial squeeze work away from trailer first so you know what to expect.

[Jessey]

Thanks guys, I think I have already been doing the 'squeeze' with out knowing it, we have reacently learnt about poles and jump wings, going into and backing out of the tack room and some of the stables at our yard have a small corridoor (sp?) its just two internal stables next to each other with a corridoor just wide enough to open the stable door along the front and another door at the other end (has a step at each end aswell)
Going to do that one tonight, now I know that it is a recognised way of doing things:D

Cvb: last time I tried it over the ramp she just flatly refused to do it, she would walk with it 1" away from her feet but never on it.

Maybe this was alot more to do with her rubber mat phobia than I first thought but as shes now over that we may have some serious progress at the weekend - now look what youv'e all done - got me in one of those positive thinking frame of minds - Jess had better be ready;)

J

[cvb]

ah, but what if you increase the squeeze so she has to put a foot on it ;)

Thats why you need to know how they react before hand. Our Fell would jump on you :rolleyes: so I would probably reverse the squeeze on him and stand on the ramp myself, with e.g. a block just off end of ramp and squeeze through that...

Of course in an ideal world I'd sort the "jumping on you" thing first.... :D

[Jessey]

Increase the squeeze - to start with she just wont budge, If I increase any more then comes the bit where the front feet leave the ground and the shoulder drops in your direction, nearly knocking you sensless;) or she tries to kick out (even if there is nothing behind her, I think thats just frustration)
She dosen't respond to pressure very well, I have found that I have to discuss things with her rather than ask or tell her and then I get a lot further, its probably alot to do with her age but I only ask for new stuff maybe once a month, is it too much? should I back off a bit? or should I carry on and continue to assert my position?

I have spoken to the lady who bred her, and apparently the stubborness comes from her mother, who also won't load unless she wants to (did it a few weeks ago for the first time in years) not for the lack of trying.

J

[Pink's lady]

You should have a try at clicker training her. I've used both clicker and Parreli, and prefered the clicker as it uses positive re-enforcement rather than negative. It also takes much less time to instill than parelli etc.

First, you teach her the meaning of the click - that it's a bridge betwen the correct behaviour, and getting the reward. Start by teaching her not to mug you for food - as soon as she looks away she gets a click and an instant food reward .

Once that's fully understood (only took brodie a 10min session) you move on other simple things - moving back, walking on etc. Then you teach her to touch a 'target', something easy and mobile, eg your hand, or a short lenght of pole. Practice until she got it(usually only a few 10min sessions), them move onto getting her to move to touch it.

The important bit is that at no point should you use any preesure (e.g, pulling lead rope) to ask her to do it. She has to get used to thinking for herself, and trying out actions to find the one you want. Eventually, she'll try a differnt range of action, to see what gets her the reward. When she tries the wrong thing, go passive and ignore her of 3 seconds, so she realises she's not done the right action and she needs to try again.

Really soon, she'll be consentrating fully on touching the target.

Than ask her to load. Every time she makes even the slightest move in the right direction, brigde and reward. Move the criteria up - that she has to step toward the ramp (click) and touch the target (click). Then she has to lift a foot near the ramp (click) and touch the target(click). Eventually, she'll step a foot onto the ramp.

It works really well with stubborn horses as it gives them motivation to WANT to try, rather than prodding, poking and pressurising them until they do it.

You can by clickers at most big pet stores.

[cvb]

Ok - so you need to start from a point where she IS moving... ;)

(You know the Norfolk saying - guy asking for directions and local chap says "ahhh - well if you want to get there, I wouldn't start from here !")

I would work on a lot of the elements that have been discussed previously, little by little. She needs to know how to get herself out of a situation without invading your space :D

The DVD is useful for seeing ways to work with it and stop things getting sticky.

[Harry Hobbes]

I "borrowed" my old YO's box and just started off with lead lessons around it. then progressed to a sqeeze type game with the ramp down and her walking past it. After a couple of weeks I asked her for a foot on the ramp..then two, asked her to back off in between. Finally went through games and then walked up my self asking her to follow, she got half way and backed off...I lunged her and asked her again....success. we repeated this a few times. Next week it took one ask and she went in. Kept this up without going anywhere, a step at a time (ie ramp up etc) This is the method the current natural horsemen use, with slight variation from trainer to trainer.

Jessey,

In essence, training to trailer load/unload is the repetition of asking the horse to step a foot in, then back out; over and over again. Then incrementally asking for more "in" distance, until the horse goes all the way in, waits (without restraint), and backs out on command.

The Parelli Trailer Loading DVD or the other publications from Lyons, Marten or Brannaman will articulate (or demonstrate) the above technique in detail, and because of the claustrophobic instinct of the horse, it is important that the horse be trained one step at a time, else it will rarely come to accept the trailer.

You can and should practice the various exercises articulated in the posts above as prerequisites to attempting trailer training. As Yann said: it is all about controlling the feet; and the prerequiste exercises provide methods to do just that.

When you are then ready for Larri's method (above) make sure that you spend lots of time on placing one foot forward, then the same foot backward (all with the horse's nose at the opening of the trailer). You should get the horse "bored" with moving one foot forward, then back before you ask for two steps forward.

When the horse is bored with one step forward/back, ask for two steps forward, then back. When the horse is bored with this, move to three forward and back.

About the time you ask for three steps forward, the horse will have to put a foot up on the trailer for the third step. When the horse puts one foot on the trailer, pet it and ask it to step back out. DO NOT press your "luck" and attempt to put the horse all of the way in the trailer.

Also, do not let the horse bolt into the trailer; just back it out if it gets chargey. (Of course, you should be petting the horse every time it complies with any command -- even one foot forward.) So you are asking the horse to put one foot in, then back it out. Repeat this until the horse is bored.

Then, ask for two feet in, pet the horse, and ask for two feet back out.

If at any time the horse gets over excited, just do the Circle Game at the opening of the trailer until the horse calms down. Then continue asking for a step in/out.

If at any time he horse turns around (either in the trailer or ouside) and bolts away, LET IT GO and do not attempt to stop it. Just go get the horse after it stops, bring it back to the trailer, and restart training from the beginning.

Finally, you should understand that the horse will sense your level of excitment and react accordingly. So if you get anxious/excited/afraid the horse will in turn get anxious/excited/afraid. If you stay absolutely calm despite all of the fear, evasions, and antics of the horse, the horse will calm down and think its way through the training problem. You are your horse's emotional role model (whether you want to be or not).

This normally requires up to one hour of time to get a reluctant/fearful horse to step all the way in and then back out. But you will have to repeat the exercise over several training sessions to get the horse totally comfortable with loading and unloading.

Trailer loading/unloading is the repetition of asking the horse to step a foot in, then back out; over and over again. Then incrementally asking for more "in" distance. When you are "done", the horse will walk in calmly, wait for your next command, and then back out calmly. (You can also train the horse to lead back out by tugging on its tail at this point.)

Best regards,
Harry

[Jessey]

OK, have got in my head what I'm gonna do, gonna print this email, read it several 100 times and then get OH to stand around at the W/E and remind me of bits as we go, HeHe.
Oh and Harry, think we got the stops sorted now, in trying what you said I realised that I was locking my ankles (concentraiting so hard on 'soft knees') which was causing my problems, gonna keep up with it though.

thanks again

J

[Harry Hobbes]

Jessey,

Also, you should understand that the published works for trailer training comprise whole videos and chapters of books. All of the combined commentary on this web forum merely touches upon those methods and techniques; they do not replace the complete instructions found in the books and videos.

This is why it's important to obtain either published works, or on-the-ground training for yourself (or both).

Best regards,
Harry

[Jessey]

I thought I would have a little go last night so put the ramp down and got her out, first time didn't want to go on, snorting and scooting round the side. Walked away, round the yard and back, led her up to it, gave a little tug on her rope and told her to 'come' and she steped right on, stood ther for a couple of minutes and then asked for a little more and she didn't even hesitate, 4 feet on the ramp, stood for a few more minutes having treats and fusses then quietly backed her off and quit while we were ahead. Can you belive it, after all those hours of trying, its one night in the dark and the rain and she does it.
:D :D :D :D :D Shes such a good pony.
I think maybe I had been making to much of a fuss over it before, normally I won't do new or difficult stuff with her on my own (just in case I get hurt as I am generally the only person at the yard in the evenings) so OH and I get there on the weekend, shift the trailer round to what we think is the best place, faf about, get ready, Then we get her out. Last night it was just me and her, quiet, calm, no fuss or bother.
Yeah I'm so happy, shes such a good girl:D :D

[cvb]

stuff like that always makes me wonder what the horses have been discussing with each other behind my back :D

[larri]

Brilliant news. I think things like this always go better if you don't expect anything, great to get a pleasant surprise :D

[Harry Hobbes]

stood for a few more minutes having treats and fusses then quietly backed her off and quit while we were ahead. Excellent! This is an example of "quitting on a good note".Can you belive it, after all those hours of trying, its one night in the dark and the rain and she does it. Actually, its "...one night of approach and retreat and she does it".

Just remember, start again from the beginning at the next session, so that you are reinforcing the basics.

Also, she will go through regression stages, where she will return to balking/resisting. When they occur, drop back and begin again. Expect regression and deal with it without dissappointment, resentment nor frustration. Regression is just the manifestation of lack of confidence within the horse; and YOUR job is to help the horse gain confidence by being consistent.

Good work nonetheless.

Harry

[Jessey]

Thanks all.
Actually, its "...one night of approach and retreat and she does it". I really did do just the same as I have before,I just think it was just normal and not lots of odd things leading up to it and it was just me and her (she dosen't really like OH very much cause he hasn't spent any time with her - apart from trying to load her!) I guess since we last tried she has also improved in her ground work. AND I had my positive thinking hat on when I left work yesterday.
But what ever made the difference I'm just gonna keep doing the same until she is totally happy with it.
Thanks again guys.

J

[Jessey]

Hey all, Just wanted to give another update as I was soooo pleased with the baby girl.

She's been going on and off the trailer with no hitches since my last post, yesterday was her first trip out since the day we picked her up.

She loaded perfectly, didn't even hesitate at the bottom of the ramp, then I stayed with her while my friend shut the back ramp up and I the got out and shut the jockey door, a few little wickers but no movement.

Then we took her round the block, about 2 miles I guess, she hadn't moved an inch all the way. We got back and opened up all the doors, she was shaking like a leaf, poor lass. I had to spend a few minutes with her in the trailer before I asked her to back of because she was shaking so much :( but after a few carrots and lots of scratches she backed off like a pro :)

What a good girl :D :D

Next weekend we are going to put another horse on with her to see if shes happier about it with company.

[Harry Hobbes]

Then we took her round the block, about 2 miles I guess, she hadn't moved an inch all the way. We got back and opened up all the doors, she was shaking like a leaf, poor lass. I had to spend a few minutes with her in the trailer before I asked her to back of because she was shaking so much but after a few carrots and lots of scratches she backed off like a pro
Trailer training consists of five components (preferably taught in the following order): loading, unloading, moving (her feet) within the trailer, waiting (untied in the open trailer), and hauling; all requiring specific focus to train the horse to accept them calmly and consistently, without fear.

Some horses are quite fearful of moving their feet in a moving trailer (i.e., "...she hadn't moved an inch all the way"), and therefore cannot relax, thereby exhibiting signs of fear/anxiety. (This probably has something to do with the claustrophobic instinct reacting from the relative movement of the trailer.) So when the trailer moves, they get fearful/anxious. Some of them panic and injure themselves. It has to do with the motion of the trailer triggering the claustrophobic instinct; and the way to train a horse to deal effectively with this instinct is to train it to move its feet naturally, rather than just blowing up.

The thing to do is to now train her to be comfortable moving around in the trailer (the third component, above). That is, teach her that she can move around naturally in the trailer and doesn't have to fear the walls and movement of the trailer.

You do this by sending/taking her into the trailer, and then spend lots of time with her in the trailer asking her to move forward/backward/left/right one step at a time. Back and forth, left and right, one step at a time. She should get to the point where she justs "steps left/right/forward/back" at your lightest cue, without any sigh of excitement or anxiety (head coming up, fast/reactive movements, etc.) She should be able to move in four directions to the limits of the trailer walls without excitement or anxiety.

Then, when she has the moving around down pat, train her to wait untied in the open trailer while you leave, and to stay in the trailer until you cue her to back out (whether you do this from inside or outside of the trailer).

Once she's comfortable waiting for 15 minutes untied/unblocked in an open trailer, then she'll be ready to learn to haul without fear/anxiety.

Best regards,
Harry