Reschooling western - how to go about it?

[Zingy]

Given that hopefully we'll soon be mobile, I can start working Yog again more seriously. He's basically had a very, very long break from any serious ridden work (like about 4 years!), firstly due to various injuries and problems, and leter due to complete lack of facilities.

I've always wanted to western train him - he goes better on a loose contact, works well off weight aids etc and I think he'll enjoy it, and now seems a good time to do it given that we're really going to be starting from scratch.

Problem is, what to do! I have had 1 western lesson on him which consisted of halt and reinback from walk using weight aids only. There are no western instructors round here and the western societies don't seem to do much. Plus I can't afford to pay someone to tell me what to do every time I want to ride! Equally I don't want to completely confuse him by getting it wrong or being inconsistent.

What are the basics I should be teaching him? How much can I do from the ground (as this is all I can do during the week)? How much can I do in english tack, given that I can't afford a western saddle at the moment and I believe the cheap ones aren't worth having, so that could be a long way off? Just really need a few pointers on exercises and what I should be trying to achieve so that at least I can start as I mean to continue. Have got a couple of books on western riding, but that's basically the extent of my knowledge. Help!

[Zip_n_Prin]

You actually CAN do most of the stuff in an english saddle, the tack isnt the sole of western riding, its more of HOW you ride than what you ride in. So basically you will just need to make your sturrips longer.
As far as the actual riding goes, sounds like you have the right idea of using your seat instead of relying on your hands, which is a big no-no if you are showing!
Im not sure what your plans are, but Im going to assume that you would like to eventually show.
You will need to get a nice long, low headset, but not sloppy. The horse needs to still have contact with the bit, just not with your hands, if you get what I am saying?
And unless you are going to be an Eq. rider, your position will be more relaxed and natural, not toes pointed forward and chest out and shoulders back. just sit there and relax;)
Your horse will need to neck rein, which will probably not be too difficult if he moves that well off your weight, and if hes PERFECT (hehe) about it, you wouldnt have to have your horse trained to neck rein, as long as he moved nicely, and fast off your leg. you would just move your hand to make it LOOK like you were neck reining, when instead, you and your horse would be relying totally on your seat and body, not your hands, which in my opinion is the ideal western horse! that way you wouldnt even need reins, so you could rope, ect:D .
Hope I havent confused you too much! But it sounds like you are on the right track, so just relax, take it at your horses speed, and HAVE FUN DOING IT!!
Best of Luck to you!

[Epona UK]

There is a Western Trainer quite close to you, you can get her details at www.wes-uk.com If you co on to the shows/clinics page there are also some events not too far away.

Epona

[Zingy]

Thanks for that. Nearest western trainer is 60miles away, so it is a bit far to be honest, certainly for anything more than a 1-off. There is a 3 day event in Preston, which I might look into and see if we could just do a bit of it. Certainly can't do 3 days!

[Harry Hobbes]

Have got a couple of books on western riding...
What books do you have?

Harry

[notpoodle]

what an interesting thread!!! im interested in giving western a go as well - but the last trainer in my area moved away about a year ago and i cant afford to pay someone to travel to the yard and teach me, and dont have transport for the pony either :rolleyes:

julia
x

[Zingy]

Harry

The books are Natural Western Riding (The Ultimate Hore & Rider Partnership) by DOn Blazer & Cathy Hanson - was highly recommended by someone at WES, and The Horse Illustrated Guide to Western Riding by Lesley Ward which came as a cheap deal with the first one from Amazon!

[Harry Hobbes]

The books and authors you listed are not known to me, so I can't point you to appropriate passages in their works.
How much can I do in english tack
Everything; EXCEPT dally on with a roped cow (because you have no saddle horn on an English saddle) and compete in western discipline (i.e., Cutting, Reining, Reining Cow Horse, Western Pleasure, etc.) competitions because they require specific western tack.

(One of my rancher friends, who owns 13,000+ acres and runs 240+ cow/calf pairs sometimes saddles his ranch gelding in a Crosby All-Purpose English saddle to go move the cows to fresh pasture. He's a real sight: Wrangler blue jeans, chaps, cowboy boots, buckaroo scarf, buckaroo cowboy hat, riding an English saddle with mecate reins. The only thing he cannot do is dally on with a cow.)
What are the basics I should be teaching him?
The western horse is based upon the concept of a "working horse", rather than a "performance horse", although within today's modern competitions, the western horse is now used as a performance horse. But if you do not compete, then the concept of a working horse applies.

The First Basic

The primary difference between a "western" working horse and an "English" performance horse is that the western horse is encouraged to travel freely and loosely in an extended frame over long distances and/or over long periods of time, until it is time to take some specific action.

So the first basic is to train the horse to do just that: travel freely and loosely until cued to take a specific action (such as turn, stop, back up, hold a cow, cut/sort a cow, etc.) We accomplish this by always keeping a loose rein until we want to cue a specific action.

You train for this by encouraging the horse to travel forward (long trot) with energy on a loose rein (i.e., "on the buckle") until you want to cue some action. So you should do a lot of extended trotting; that is, the horse is long, loose, and energetic while trotting with a level top line. The "extended" western (working) trot is NOT the same as the "extended" English (Dressage) trot. In the western trot, you must let the horse truly extend and move out loosely with a level top line. Do not attempt to put the head in any position; just let the horse find the level top line. (The "level top line" will vary depending upon the conformation of the breed.)

The Second Basic

A second difference between a western horse and an English horse is that we train the western horse to hold a gait/speed without contact, until cued to change gait or speed. Otherwise, the horse travels without contact nor cues. We do not "hold" the horse into a gait/speed; the horse holds itself in gait/on speed, until told to do otherwise.

So cue the horse up to an energetic extended trot and a specific speed, and leave it alone unless it changes gait/speed.

If it slows down, cue it up to the proper speed. If it changes gaits, cue it back to the trot. If it goes too fast within the trot (rushing), still your seat and wait for the horse to slow down, then continue riding with your seat.

The Third Basic

A third difference between a western horse and an English horse is that we train the western horse to hold a course (don't change direction) without contact, until cued to change course. Otherwise, the horse travels without contact nor cues. We do not "hold" the horse on course; the horse holds itself on course, until told to do otherwise.

You maintain a loose rein and do not hold the English equivalent of "contact" until such time as you pick up the reins to supplement the cue for some specific action; then you immediately go back to a loose rein. I say "supplement" because you should be cueing the horse with your seat, legs and then reins, in that order (just like English riding).

When you wish to cue a turn, turn your head and look where you want the horse to go, allowing your upper body to turn with your head, and pick up one rein (same side that you're looking) and use a direct rein to reinforce the cue to turn where you are looking. (The primary cue is in your seat, caused by you turning your head/upper body into the direction where you want to go; the secondary cue will be the subtle natural shifting of your legs; and the rein only supplements the primary and secondary cues.)

Use only enough direct rein (supplemental cue) to get the turn, then immediately go to a loose rein.

If you are riding around an arena or circular area, cue the horse through each corner, then when the horse is aligned in the direction you want to go, straighten out and go back to a loose rein. If you are riding in the open with long straight distances, the horse should be on a loose rein until such time as you wish to change directions.

The Fourth Basic

If the horse wanders (i.e., changes directions without a cue) then just pick up one rein and bend the horse back on to course and then immediately go back to the loose rein.

The Fifth Basic

While riding with the above exercises, DO NOT LOOK AT YOUR HORSE! Look where you are going and develop the feel of your horse. (Your horse is still under you, so you do not have to look at it. :p )

Advanced work

After you and your horse are really good and comfortable moving out at an extended trot, and not changing directions without a cue, then you can progress to the advance stuff, like neck reining, holding a proper form, and such.

But the basics should be in place first.
How much can I do from the ground (as this is all I can do during the week)?
You can and should do extensive ground work, both before a horse is "backed" and throughout its life; because this is where the horse learns to yield, be responsive, and respect.

The basics listed above will get you started. In addition, you can do all of the ground work you can find in the various publications and on this (and other) forums.

Best regards,
Harry

[Zingy]

Thanks Harry. Wow, lots of info! And stuff to do :D Think I need to head for the beach for some long straight lines! I think the cow stuff I can live without for now, so sounds like an English saddle will be fine :p

Query on this extended trot - should I let him trot at natural pace, making sure there's plenty of impulsion and hind legs are tracking up, or do I need to really push him forward into something more than that? Is a rising trot acceptable (you see how much I know :rolleyes: ) which would help hold the pace more consistant and reduce the need for other aids?

The 'DO NOT LOOK AT YOUR HORSE' will certainly be my biggest challenge :o A very bad habit that's very hard to break. For some reason I always look at his ears :rolleyes: Like he'll go somewhere if I don't!

[Harry Hobbes]

Query on this extended trot - should I let him trot at natural pace, making sure there's plenty of impulsion and hind legs are tracking up, or do I need to really push him forward into something more than that?
Just push him into a fast-paced trot that he can comfortably maintain over distance, and do not think about tracking up. Just let him go and ride with him.

Why? Because if you let the horse trot at a natural fast pace over distance, he will find his balance, and track up on his own. He has to do this because he will tire if too much weight is on the forehand; so he'll take more weight on the hindquarters by tracking up. Your job is to sit back and ride balanced, stay out of his way (unless he changes gaits, speed, or direction), and just "let him find it". He will find it after about 10-20 minutes of uninterrupted trot. "Uninterrupted" means that you ride but do not interfere with him (except to correct his mistakes, as articulated in my prior post).

If he's moving at the correct speed, you'll have to post the trot to stay with him. (But, if he's moving at a speed that allows you to sit the trot, then he's moving too slow; speed him up.)

The beach is ideal, assuming he doesn't get bogged down and tired out in sand, because it is a long straight path, and nothing teaches a horse how to move straight better than a long straight run (or trot).
...which would help hold the pace more consistant and reduce the need for other aids? What helps the horse most is if you can consistently post with an even, energetic rythym. That does not mean "wear yourself out"; but it does mean that your rythymic, energetic seat movements tend to cue the horse on, and if your rising trot is consistent, the horse will trot consistent (or will learn to do so). Here's the principle: The horse follows the rider (not the other way around). So get him up to the speed you want, and then ride with rythym and energy, and he will learn to match your pace in the saddle.

Edit to add: Keeping your head up and eyes on the horizon will help you to sit back and stay off of the forehand while you're riding. This will put your weight back, where the horse will be better able to carry it.

One other caveat: You may have to work him over several sessions to build his cardiovascular system to a point where he can trot for 20 minutes without getting winded. (This is very much the case with most stabled horses because they stand/lie around all day long and don't get a cardiovascular workout.)

If this is the case with your horse, then start with ten minute trot sessions, and build the time in subsequent sessions. Assuming you could ride three times per week, you could build the horse to around 25 minutes after about ten sessions. However, your horse may be in good condition, and do 20 minutes sooner.

Best regards,
Harry

[cvb]

Zingy

I have a western-backed mare - but we now also do dressage so we "cross-train". Which works really well for me.

I use a snaffle in both cases - and am lucky enough to have both western and dressage saddles. But I'll often "go western" in the dressage saddle if I feel its what we need.

The work you started - the weight aid work - is ideal for both disciplines. You can build up to changing pace e.g. within your trot. The key is to keep it engaged and working properly, then see how much you can go towards a jog without losing balance, rhythm, etc, and then move out again and lengthen it all.

I also build in leg yield and so on.

From the ground you can work on turn on forehand and haunches and side-pass, which you can then practise from saddle as well. (Here I am mean "sidepass" going directly sideways - sometimes "sidepass" is used to mean diagonmal leg yield as well !).

Lots of suppling work, serpentines - and what Bob Mayhew calls "snake trails" ;-)

Put out some poles and do work through Ts and square. Practise trotting and/or loping over a single pole - move on to a set of poles (check trail patterns...)

My mare can be a bit spooky so we've been doing a reaosnable amount of "passenger" work recently... this is similar to what Harry is describing but to stop me interfering, I "lean" on the horn with at least one hand (NB in an arena). This stops me doing stuff I shouldn't :rolleyes: and I'm doing as a remedial exercise cos I'd been doing more and more "micro-management" (she spooks, I feel responsible AND scared so try and manage the situation so it doesn't happen. So she feels claustrophobic and constrained and thinks I'm tense so worries more, so spooks more :rolleyes: dumb huh !)

By the way - Cherry Hill has various books including one for English and Western which is something like "101 Arena Exercises"....

[Jessey]

cvb - '101 arena exercises for horse and rider' my fave book of all time.
Zingy, I have some friends who are near leeds, am sure its only 45 mins to stockport (or something like that) from them, they have western trained horses and may be able to help you out, if your'e interested?
I do loads of travelling round to go to clinics and stuff and there is a fair bit on if you don't mind travelling a bit. You could try the AQHA Uk and WHA of GB, they will have reps in your area who may be able to help and should have details of stuff going on in your area.
notpoodle, I also know a few people in herts and kent if that would be any help?
Good luck

J

[Zingy]

Jessey, if you can give me some details that would be great. You've just reminded me in fact I know of someone Leeds way who does western - might be the same people! Certainly a lot easier than the instructors in Cheshire as well :)

[doris]

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