Some questions about Western...

[chev]

Firts of all I know next to nothing about Western riding or training, so forgive any truly dumb questions... :rolleyes: :D

I have a Welsh colt who will probably be starting under saddle next year. I'm thinking I might like to train him to Western rather than English - which is why I'm asking so early because if I decide to go ahead, I have a lot to learn!

The questions I need answering are basically about how you ride Western, physically. My OH is semi-paralysed - he has ridden in the past, but found English riding beyond him. His left hand is completely paralysed, so keeping an even rein contact English style is impossible for him, and most horses ignored his rather feeble left rein aids. Could we get round this using Western training? Thinking now of riding one-handed, and using neck reining more than actual contact with the mouth. How much reliance on rein aids is there in Western?

I also need to know about leg aids in Western riding. English riding relies heavily on leg aids, which again, OH found very difficult as his left leg is semi=paralysed. He just couldn't use his left leg effectively. He can, however, use weight and seat fairly well. Is this more suited to Western or does Western use legs as much as English?

If a horse is trained to Western, how would that affect his ability to ride English, if at all? The whole way of going is vastly different, and I'm wondering how difficult a horse would find it to alter his whole carriage to adapt to different styles. If I train him to go Western, would it be best to stick to Western?

Any input welcome.... :D

[galadriel]

Western riding does rely upon leg aids--

But you're talking about training a horse specifically for one person to ride. You can alter standard training so that he responds to whatever you want. Even though typical riding would include response to leg aids, you can teach the horse to respond just to seat and weight (and voice would be helpful, probably).

Proper Western riding involves working on the bit just as does proper English riding. The rein cues are different (weight of the bit and reins in Western, as opposed to contact in English) but much of the seat, weight, and leg aids are quite similar. Initial training to go Western even involves direct reining, so most horses who neck rein should still be able to respond to direct rein.

If you want a horse to go Western and English, you simply have to make the difference very clear during training and riding--it helps that the bits are different. So you use your Western tack when you want to neck rein, and your English tack when you want to direct rein.

[Harry Hobbes]

The questions I need answering are basically about how you ride Western, physically.There is less universal emphasis on the "proper way to ride" orientation in the western riding world than in the English riding world, for the simple reason that nowadays western riding is predominately pleasure riding (hacking) of one form or another, and performance is about the horse, and less about the rider. This is why one sees so much sitting (and slouching) in the saddle of general pleasure riders.

Having said that, western also has a variety of competitive aspects where posture and proper rider balance is crucial to the horse, but the rider's form, position and posture are not directly judged. An exception is a few competitive sports, such as Western Pleasure, which does directly assesses the rider's posture and position, and Cutting, where one can default by having the rein hand out of place.

All this means that if you are not competing in a select number of western competitive sports, you can sit in the saddle any way you wish; and most riders not formally trained do just that. The western saddle is pretty forgiving of poor posture (and indeed encourages poor posture to an extent), so the horse won't be as sensitive to position variation as with an English saddle.

So the upshot is, there is a very wide spectrum of how one rides western, depending upon what one does and whether one wishes to "ride properly" (whatever that means to the individual). Basically, you get to choose for yourself unless some instructor requires a proper posture.

However, the usual trained "proper posture" is akin to the standard "Classical Seat" with the legs extended down with longer stirrup leathers.
My OH is semi-paralysed...His left hand is completely paralysed...Could we get round this using Western training?
Yes. Just train the horse for the set of aids for which you want it to respond. The fact that your OH may be weak on a side inhibits little. The horse is capable of readily adapting to the strong and weak sides of human riders. The important thing (for the horse) is consistency of aids.
...so keeping an even rein contact English style is impossible for him, and most horses ignored his rather feeble left rein aids. "Most" horses that are trained to respond only to the cues your OH cannot give will ignore the cues he can give. Train the horse to respond to a different set of cues -- cues that your OH can give -- and the horse will respond.
How much reliance on rein aids is there in Western?
Again, the answer is that it depends on how much reliance upon the reins that one trains into the horse. If one trains primarily for seat, legs, then rein aids, in that order, then the reins are merely supplemental aids. One sees the heavy reliance on the rein and strong legs in the western riding world because the those particular horses are not trained seat, legs, then reins to lightness. But light responsiveness to seat, legs, then rein aids are entirely doable on any sound horse -- including a western-trained horse (and your Welsh colt).
Could we get round this using Western training? Thinking now of riding one-handed, and using neck reining more than actual contact with the mouth.
Oh yes; without a doubt. But you will have to re-train a new set of aids first in your OH, and then in the horse; a set of aids that your OH can readily and easily apply. If you want one-handed rein aids, then just design the aids (i.e., determine what each aid is and how to apply it) and then train for them, and use them consistently.
I also need to know about leg aids in Western riding. English riding relies heavily on leg aids, which again, OH found very difficult as his left leg is semi=paralysed. He just couldn't use his left leg effectively. He can, however, use weight and seat fairly well. Is this more suited to Western or does Western use legs as much as English?
Use of the leg is the same in principle as use of the rein aids, as stated above. Train the horse for what your OH can readily do. If he can use his seat, so much the better: train the seat aids to lightness, and the legs and reins are much less important.
If a horse is trained to Western, how would that affect his ability to ride English, if at all? Not at all. Why? Because the horse has a specific set of aids to tell it how to respond, and if one wants the horse to perform in two different disciplines, one only needs to train the horse to perform for the aids to the two disciplines.

However, the limiting factor is the human; not the horse.

A year ago, I posted a thread about Mr. Prince, a former ranch gelding that I trained Dressage, roping, and jumping. The horse was (typically) versatile enough to do all kinds of things. He had been a trail horse, a mountain hunting horse, and former barrel racer, among other things. I used him for Dressage three days a week, and pleasure riding and cattle work (including roping) other days of the week. Last summer, he won three Dressage competitions and then did some amount of cattle work. Each activity require somewhat different cue sets.

His versatility did not prevent him from achieving champion levels of performance, although his conformation and lack of specialization did. (He's an "all-round" horse; not a specialist.)

What prevents horses from performing English (such as Dressage) one day, and western (such as Cutting) the next day is training inconsistency in separating the different sets of performance aids. This is a human issue, not a horse issue.

Furthermore, the mark of an exceptionally "well-trained" horse is less about how well it performs a discipline (which is an indicator of its natural talent), than about how readily it accepts and adapts to a new set of consistent aids (which is an indicator of its state of training).

This is why a well-trained horse can accept different riders and perform well for all of them (assuming each uses their particular aids consistently). The "school horse" comes to mind.
The whole way of going is vastly different...
Only specific movements and form are different; but there's less difference (to the horse) than is readily apparent. The horse uses its body similarly in western or English; and the principles of development are aligned (if not identical). For example, If I and my horse are "sorting" calves out an open gate (in full western regalia), the horse's body is the "virtual gate" blocking the calves, until I cue a half-pirouette canter to "open the gate". The horse pivots (actually pirouettes) on his hindquarters, thereby opening a space for the calf(ves) to go through.
...I'm wondering how difficult a horse would find it to alter his whole carriage to adapt to different styles.I think that if you cross-train, you'll find that this is more difficult for the human to accept, than the horse. Remember, the school movements are nothing more than the horse perfecting its natural abilities; the same natural abilities that are used in western.
If I train him to go Western, would it be best to stick to Western?
It would be best to train English (such as Dressage) one day, and western (pick a discipline) the next. Doing that, the human would become as versatile as the horse. And the horse would be the metaphorical equivalent of "a world traveler".

Train your Welsh colt to be responsive to a consistent set of aids, or two different consistent sets of aids if you wish, and it will readily (and easily) adapt. The horse is that versatile. Just pick one set and get the horse really good and responsive in one discipline. Then if your wish to cross-train the horse, train up in the other set of cues. Then set up a program to alternately maintain both sets of cues.

If you train consistently (i.e., your efforts and aids are consistent), and maintain and communicate distinction between the efforts and aids of two (or more) disciplines, you will find that the horse can readily do two or more disciplines.

Best regards,
Harry

[galadriel]

A well-designed Western saddle will encourage the same position for the rider as a well-designed dressage saddle.

[cvb]

If a horse is trained to Western, how would that affect his ability to ride English, if at all? The whole way of going is vastly different, and I'm wondering how difficult a horse would find it to alter his whole carriage to adapt to different styles. If I train him to go Western, would it be best to stick to Western?

Chev - there are awards e.g. in the Quarter Horse world for "versatility". This is for a horse that excels at a range of disciplines e.g. western ones (pleasure, trail etc) AND "hunt seat" (english - "equitation" jumping and so on).

So even before I suggest you ask Fi - who was backed western but was placed in every dressage test but one that we did last year - there are much more "famous" examples. (Rugged Lark and/or Lynn Palm. Lynn has taken at least 4 horses to "superhorse" level).

Carriage really doesn't have to be that different. And a lot of the underlying principles in both could be seen as "classical riding" - just interpreted slightly different into the end result.

[chev]

That's fantastic, thankyou. So it really boils down to whether OH and Rhodri are happier going Western or English really.

He's two this June, so we're doing nothing about backing for a while - presumably preparation for Western riding is going to be much the same as for any training? He'll probably learn to long-rein later this year, I'll start working with ground poles just to get him to become more aware of his feet, and work on yielding.

Anything else I'd need to be working on?

You've been great so far. Thankyou. :)

[Harry Hobbes]

Anything else I'd need to be working on? I'd be doing regular ground work, such as Parelli's Seven Games and other exercises from Lyons or whomever. I'd be trying to build in total acceptance and willingness as habits of mind now, before I ever put a leg over the horse. A year of ground work is not too much.

Also, I'd introduce the saddle and bit immediately after the sacking out (that is, now), and do all ground work with the horse wearing the saddle and bit from now on out. That way the horse does everything from now on wearing the "clothes" it will be asked to work in later. (Detach the reins from the bit and just let the horse wear the bridle and bit, with the training halter worn over the bridle.)

Later on when you get ready to ride the horse, it will have a year or two of experience under saddle and with a bit in its mouth, and those things will be as familiar as its coat of fur.

Best regards,
Harry

[Epona UK]

Hi Chev, I think you may want to take a look at www.chesterreining.com Chester is in a similar position to your OH, he only has one leg that works, in fact he only has one complete leg, the other being artificial. He competes very sucessfully under Western tack with able bodied people, and wins.
He has a sort of string arrangement which operates his artifical leg in order to give an aid, I'm sure that he would be happy to give you some help in that direction.

Epona

[chev]

Brilliant - thanks again.

Rhodri won't be two until June, so we have a while to work on this - I figure the sooner we start, the more chance of success we have. Some really good links there - thanks!

[Outrider]

Harry gave you alot of great information about western riding so I won't repeat any of it again. Just wanted to tell you that western riding lends itself well to folks with physical disabilities. I know of a man here in the States that is paralyzed from the waist down and competes in roping and reining competitions very successfully. So the bottom line is, if your OH wants to ride, his only limitation is in his mind. You can train a horse to respond totally to rein cues if you want to. If your horse is already two, I would go ahead and begin getting him used to the saddle in the round pen. You probably know we tend to break horses in the States at 2 and I don't want to start a posting war about the good and bad points of that practice. I only want to point out that it is not too early to at least get him used to the western tack as you work him in the round pen. I would also suggest working on strong voice commands, so he will work off of that cue as well. When you start riding, the horse can also be trained to respond to shifts in weight and body position as well. Its amazing what these animals can learn and how much they can help us. Good luck and keep us posted.

OutRider

[horsefeather]

my horse ASkim was originally trained in western riding. for 13 years he did this type of work however his owner before me owned him for 10 years and hardly did anything with him so basically he was only ridden for about 4 years as a whole. i bought him at 13 years old, and changed to english. it took very little time for him to adjust to the new style. although throught the whole 12 years ive had him i used his neckreining. now after riding only english for 12 years, i won a western saddle in an raffle and when i tried it out on him. it was like he never switched to english. ive noticed that dependin gon the saddle, he move that way. western saddle--he does the western slow jog. english saddle--posting trot.

youll be suprised how adaptable your horse is and if he is trained for a specific person with no intention of showing, than it can be done. for example, Askims speed is directly associated to rein length. the longer rein the slower he goes. the more contact i have the faster the gaits.

[chev]

Thanks again everyone - loads of useful advice here!

Rhodri won't be started this year (just my preference to leave backing til a little later ;) , and he won't be 2 until late June anyway) but there's still plenty I can be doing with him all the same. We'll be working on voice cues and he can start to get used to the idea of tack at least - I tend to use a roller in the early stages so he'll probably meet that later this year.

OH has just had to give up his cycling (about which he is passionate) because of ill health - he's turning his attention more to the horses again now as a result, so I'll keep you all posted. :)

[Miriam]

I fyour looking for a good book to read and lesons to learn I believe this is the one I bought Gems tiger for her 21st

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1580171079/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/104-2810919-7462346

I'll double check with her

[cvb]

its on UK Amazon as well

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1580171079/qid=1108730702/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-3249433-6627010

(Thanks Mim - I think thats going on my birthday list. The pages shown on amazon.com are pretty basic, but it looks like it gets more advanced ?)

[chev]

Thanks for that! There's a few books on there that look interesting actually. And basic is good as far as I'm concerned! :D