Im on the verge of giving up

[katieB]

Im at my wits end. Ever since summer Ellie has been constantly fired up when out hacking, she's not much better in the school really. I can walk her round and she's fine but as soon as I break into trot or if someone else is in there she wants to gallop flat out. For the past few months I have been just walking round the school but im not getting anywhere, its the same thing every time - walks round nicely, bends nicely, is light on my hands etc but as soon as I feel like it might be time to try a trot, she's off.

Hacking is a complete nightmare, she HAS to go first all the time or she throws a complete fit - fits consist of bucking, spinning, head throwing and mini rears. Even when she's in front she's badly behaved, i can deal with that at the moment even though it means i can only ride out with limited people. People have told me to just keep walking until she learns to behave but i cant even get her to walk, she jogs absolutely everywhere. Every now and then she decides she wants to trot so she will try to trot on but I bring her back and then ask her to trot myself, cue another fit because she doesnt like being told what to do. If people come along side her she spins her bum round into them or will barge into people, she nearly knocked my friend right off last week. When we do try and make her walk behind she will stop dead and refuse to move, then when the other horse gets a certain way ahead does a funny squeal, quick buck and tries to bolt after them.

She's pretty much the same on the ground, I went to get her in from the field on saturday and she literally galloped over me, I went down to where she was stood, put the headcollar on and started walking up with her, the next minute she just broke into gallop and trampled me. It wasnt a spook, she has funny habits and the latest one is galloping up along the fence (where i was leading her) She wont walk in from the field quietly anymore either, drags me up/down all the time. She's getting bossy in the stable too, my friend feeds her in the morning and said as soon as she opens the door Ellie tries to barge forwards for the food, she doesnt do that with me though. She's also taken to trying to bite me when I fasten her rugs up, she's constantly beating her field mate up and will bite him if he comes near her on the yard.

I really dont know what to do now, its getting to the point where I really dont want to ride, its meant to be enjoyable but the whole thing is starting to be a real chore. Im not scared when she has these fits because im getting used to sitting them now but I know anything could happen and i dont want me, her or other riders im out with to get hurt. Her teeth and back etc are fine, saddle recently fitted so I know its none of those, feed is no different, in fact she's on less hard feed than normal. I feel like everything she does is a protest to what im asking her to do: I ask her to trot, she has a tantrum, i ask her to slow down she has a tantrum. Ive always been fairly relaxed with her and we've not had any respect issues before but now i feel like im always shouting at her or smacking her for trying to bite me. I have been over and over things in my head as to what could be causing this and the only thing I can think of is parelli. Nothign else has changed but this behaviour has been apparant from pretty much the same time I started doing parelli. Incidently I havent got very far as I found it hard to concentrate on parelli, hacking and lunging together so have just been playing the games every now and then for something different. All I can think of is that instead of teaching her that im the boss, ive taught her the other way round. I never had any of these problems before and now there isnt one area that i dont need help with. Im trying to keep on top of riding her but im sitting here at the moment dreading having to ride her later. My lovely gentle mare has gone and been replaced by a raving lunatic, i need help :( :(

[helenc]

How long have you had her?

How much turnout is she getting? How much turnout does she get in the summer? How many times a week is she being ridden & what sort of things are you doing?

[ZAULTAG]

Do you excercise her often? turn her out often ?
have you changed her feed which might be heated?

[Hollymead]

I don't know much about Parelli, so can't really comment on that but I do have some questions for you that may yield some answers.
How old is Ellie? She may be going through her 'teenage stage' and testing the boundaries.
How long have you had her? If you haven't had her that long again, she may be testing boundaries.
How often, and for how long, is she turned out? There seems to be too much energy going round and 24 hour turnout may help that.
Does she get turned out with other horses? If so, where in the pecking order is she? If she's the top she is used to getting her own way. Are there any stropng-willed mares you could turn her out with to teach her some horsey manners?
What hard feed is she getting? Does she need to have any at all? Could she cope on just grass/hay? Have you tried a calming supplement, like Blue Chip?
How often does she get ridden/lunged? She may be the sort of horse that needs to be worked often and worked hard. Walking in the school will not expell much energy, especially if she isn't getting the turnout as well.

[Yann]

OMG, so sorry to hear that things have gone wrong like this:(

It does sound from what you've written like she's decided she's in charge, on the ground and under saddle. I know I'm a bit of a scratched record on this one but your situation is definitely one where it would be worth seeking professional help and getting an RA out. They'll have seen it all before and will know exactly what to do, and will be able to show you how to get things back on track. Don't give up yet, I'm sure you'll be able to get your nice mare back:(

[katieB]

I have had her since October 2003 and never had any of these problems until summer. She gets 24 hour turnout from April - October and at the moment is turned out from 7 - 4:30 everyday. She is fed on happy hoof and conditioning cubes. I ride about 4 times a week at the moment (more in summer) and she is either hacked out, lunged or ridden in the school. Have done this pretty much since ive had her.

[shandy84]

Also a silly question but have any horses left the yard recently Bramble got a hell of a lot bolshier when one left a little while ago. It does sound like you may have given mixed signals and after seeing the RA work with Janice H's pony Ben before she sold him, it wuld definatly be worth a try, they seem to make a lot of sense and if Pareli is your cause they are the best ones to refix it.

If not then maybe give her a little holiday, for a couple of months and bring her back into work very slowly make everything VERY boring and you may be lucky and find that it breaks the cycle

[shandy84]

Do you longrein her at all? if you do how does she act?

[cvb]

Ive always been fairly relaxed with her and we've not had any respect issues before but now i feel like im always shouting at her or smacking her for trying to bite me. I have been over and over things in my head as to what could be causing this and the only thing I can think of is parelli. Nothign else has changed but this behaviour has been apparant from pretty much the same time I started doing parelli. Incidently I havent got very far as I found it hard to concentrate on parelli, hacking and lunging together so have just been playing the games every now and then for something different. All I can think of is that instead of teaching her that im the boss, ive taught her the other way round.

She could just have got very confused by the bits of parelli you have been doing ? You really need to have clear cues and body language and ten tonnes of patience while you and they work it out.

[Bertie]

Katie,

I'm really sorry to hear about all your problems, I have no real advice to give you but just to say that I hope things work out and your enjoyment returns.

As you say maybe the parelli is the problem - I no nothing about it this training technique so I'm not in anyway qualified to comment but if that is the only thing that has changed maybe your best leaving it and going back to your old ways with her as maybe her status within your relationship has altered in her mind and she thinks she is the boss.

good luck and I hope things get better

Helen x:)

[horsemad]

Katie

Really sorry to hear about the problems you've been having with Ellie. I'm not experienced enough to be able to provide any solutions to your problems, but I just wanted to offer my moral support :)

Don't give up - I'm sure the sweet Ellie you bought is still in there somewhere :)

[nutkin]

Try cutting out the conditioning cubes. They are prone to heating alot of normally calm horses to the point of them becoming lunatics. If you find that you have to give her hard feed then why not try something like pasture nuts and speedibeet instead. This will maintain her weight without the fizz. Also are you feeding anything else. My horse can't cope with cider vinegar as this has the effect of turning her into a nutcase. Make sure that what you are feeding is high fibre, low protein and sugar.

[Yann]

It's definitely worth a try, but conditioning cubes won't automatically fire a horse up. I've been feeding them for a while now and whilst my horse has more energy and kept weight on she's certainly not altered very much otherwise.

[MeMe]

You could try cutting out the conditioning cubes, but I've never know them to heat anything up, I feed them to mostly all types of horses and as Yann said they have increased condition etc, and helped with energy levels, but never hotted them up.

I think the problem lies somewhere in something else, something must have changed in her routine to upset her, even something small or like Shandy said a companion or something?

[RachelEvent]

I'm really sorry to hear this - it's really horrible when the relationship between horse and rider seems to be breaking down, especially when it has been so good before :(

Some of the suggestions made have been very good, certainly worth investigating feed and changes to routine. However, seeing as this has been going on for months, I think that you will have to make a big effort to revolutionise your partnership - I'm not talking about certain techniques, but rather a new kind of mental attitude towards Ellie. If you continue as you are, it may be that you become stuck in certain patterns of behaviour - even if you don't realise.

From your description, it sounds as if you are working against each other - you would love Ellie to do what you want her to do, but perhaps she feels that she would like you to do what she wants? Either way, a better state for the both of you, would be for you to want to do what Ellie wants to do.

Perhaps a first step would be total relaxation - hop on, in a safe area, sit with loose reins, hanging legs, relaxed breathing, and a really calm mind - and if she walks off, jogs off, even trots off, just follow her. And if she pricks her ears and does something that you would normally perceive to be 'naughty', instead just give her a pat. It mightn't look like dressage, but learning to follow each other thoughts, instead of fighting them, could be a reasonable basis from which to redevelop your riding. Don't put any pressure on each other, if you suggest something and she doesn't react quite correctly, but makes an attempt to, praise anyway.

This could all be nonsense, but it works for Ferdie. Initially, I found him very difficult, but I've just tried to make everything really FUN for him all the way through our relationship, and it's worked well. If he doesn't feel like he wants to dressage one day, we might go for a gallop instead. Because he has fun with me, now if I do crack down and ask rather than suggest he does something, he will comply, because we are generally work together. He's a buzzy horse by nature, yet he's chilled with me now if I'm chilled. When I got on last week and he was pulling mini-rears and stamping the floor, I didn't argue, instead I set him up a game I knew he would enjoy - in his case, a kind of invisible tag game, with standing starts and sliding stops - perhaps unconventional, but by the end of the session, I had a happy well-behaved horse.

Anyway, I really hope things work out for you.
Don't give up yet, there are plenty of approaches to try. But remember that your thoughts always have more power than you realise.

Rachel xx

[katieB]

Thanks for the moral support everyone, its much appreciated.
Hollymead, in answer to your questions, Ellie is 10, she does need some kind of hard feed as she drops weight fairly easily (she did last winter anyway) For those who suggested cutting out the cubes, ive already tried this. Even though I was assured by my feed mill they are non heating I thought it was worth a go. Apart from this hard feed she is fed ad lib haylage at night.
Shandy and those who suggested the tunout thing: this is another thing ive considered aside from the parelli. I did post something about this a while back as I thought the change in her field setup might have had something to do with her change in behaviour...thread here (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45397)
She is now the top of the (very small!) herd where as before she was behind another mare. I dont think my YO would appreciate me re-working the fields as they are not at all horsey and wouldnt understand how seperating the horses could have changed Ellies behaviour. Saying this, my friend has her two horses in the field next to me so maybe with her support I could get the YO to agree to taking a few posts down. Maybe I could try this?

[katieB]

Forgot to say, went out for a hack tonight after work and she was quite well behaved (someones ears must have been burning :D ) we trotted a few bits at the beggining of the ride and then walked home quietly, just one little spin through the whole ride. I understand the problems havent gone away but its cheered me up a little anyway :)

[shandy84]

Bramble went to the top of the herd for a while and turned into a real devil she's much better now she's second in cmmand so it might be worth trying

[Sooty]

Katie - really sorry you have been having problems with Ellie. As a novice I haven't really any advice for you, although a couple of things others have said have struck a bit of a chord for me..... Shandy84's problem when Bramble was head of the herd - perhaps Ellie is suffering from a bit of a superiority complex! Also when Rachel said But remember that your thoughts always have more power than you realise. I have found that is SO right.

It's good to hear that you had a good ride this evening :) Goes to show it's not all bad. I'm sure you'll find a solution. Good luck

[MANDYMAD]

katie i really dont know what to say to you apart from dont give up i have been through all of this with TILLY i got to the stage where i was dreading every single moment with her but we are both doing ok now, we have the odd bad day but who doesnt.

KEEP YOUR CHIN UP
Mandy

[casey]

Oh no, I have just seen this. Nothing to say, but giving you a big (((((((((((cuddle))))))))))):)

[april]

don't give up..... there's hundreds of people who would give their right arm to be in your position!!!!.......take me for example....i have had several failed attempts at buying!!...and am thinking now...well is it meant to be!.....where as you would be throwing all of your passions away

[katieB]

Originally posted by Lenvale
What sort of work was she doing with her owner before you?
Not much, she was mainly used as a broodmare and was ridden occasionally. The owners daughter did start to bring her on a bit but then got pregnant and they sold her. I know what youre saying though, Ellie is a lot happier when she gets to go to new places and do new stuff, this was part of the reason I started doing parelli.

[crazyhorse25600]

hi, sorry to here your having problems i had the same with my mare she came with a repution,and boy did she have one,
i tryed everything and then turned to her hormones after the vet checking her levels were higher then normal so i put her on naffs orstress for mares and its like having a different horse now i would try this or theres loads of different ones it is pricy but well worth it it herbal and just levels her hormones up natural!!
i would def cut back the conditioning cubes and feed her more fibre.
good luck and don't lose hope!!

[Moomin]

ooohhh I know where you're coming from. Molly couldn't even be ridden safely even at a walk because she is so strong minded and knows what she wants to do all the time. I've had her 18 months and she's now sorted out and a very safe young lady for ME to ride or for my YO to ride - not because I'm a fantastic rider (far from it!!) but because we both know her pretty well now and we know what she does and how to put her back in her place and how to reassure her if she's not feeling as brave as she makes out on a hack.

It does sound like your mare is trying to be in charge of you (and succeeding!) and perhaps has some food issues too?? Molly is intolerant to all cereals, sugar beet and sugars (difficult to feed I'll tell you) and you can tell when she's had something she shouldn't have because she gets bolshy for a day or so. Once I'd had her intolerances confirmed I saw an almost immediate difference.

She also needs turnout most of the time - out more nights than in - because she hates being in too long and you can' t reason with her when all she wants to do is get to the field.

She enjoys her work and hacking now and has mostly stopped trying everyone out, but she still does the odd thing like two weekends ago she decided to try out napping on hacks, and a month ago she'd try and chuck you off if you put your legs on at all, but a bit of kind but firm I am not getting off until you do as I ask and she's back on track. Also every time she goes up in the herd she HAS to try me to see if she can be my boss too.

I've dealt with her using a Parelli based method (Steve Halfpenny's largely) and she likes this because it is logical and fair, but it has taken a really long time. From last September 03 to September 04 I honestly never thought I'd be able to ride her in a safe manner and maybe not at all because she was so uncontrollable, so I didn't ride her really, and now I go out on her every weekend and I've even taken her to a cow working clinic and things.

Don't give up - give it time but do something positive in that time. I did a lot of the work myself but I also sent her for some schooling (natural horsemanship schooling) which really tipped the balance.

PS she might sound like a pain but she's a babe - I wouln't part with her for anything!!

[flowergirl]

hi

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but are you absolutly sure pain isnt an issue, if you havent already I get everything checked teeth, saddle, back, foot blance.

a friend had a similer problem with her horse changing behaviour both ridden and in the stable and it has turned out to be a problem with her ovaries so this may very well be worth checking out.


Best of luck
Nicola
www.bachflowerremedies.net