Overo, Sabino, Tobiano, Rabicano and Splashed White...

[chev]

For those who'd like to know a bit more about colour and how it works in horses, here's a very quick guide....

Some quick definitions.

1. Tobiano

Tobiano is the gene responsible for what most of us know as coloured horses. It causes white patches on the base colour, and is what's called a 'simple dominant' - that means if a horse carries the tobiano gene, it will show tobiano colouring.

Tobianos usually have dark heads, white legs (up to the knee at least), white at the top of the dock and dark at the end, and can have ermine marks, spots, and roaning or bleeding of colour at the edges of patches. The spine is often white (although minimally marked tobianos sometimes have no more than a small patch of white on the neck or shoulder) and the flanks often dark.

Extreme white markings on the face are not down to tobiano, even when they appear on a tobiano horse - they are the result of another gene (or two!).

[Talou]

Thanks,very interesting:)...what about the others?

[chev]

2. Sabino.

Sabino is thought to be polygenic - that means controlled by more than one gene. It can be expressed as minimally as one small ragged sock and a white chin, right through loud sabino (where markings are easily confused with some overo patterns) to maximum sabino, which appears white - occasionally with small spots.

There are several characteristics that sabinos show - in order to be classed as sabino, a horse must show at least two of the following;

On legs - ragged white socks or stockings, often ending in a point; knifeblade socks; partial socks or stockings; spots on the legs

On head/face - wide, irregular blaze; odd shaped white on face; lip spots; white chin; white spots under throat

On body - splashes of white on the belly, or extending up the flank or shoulder; odd white patches, especially 'lightning strike' markings; roaning, which can be a little on the belly or flank or cover the body and even head and legs.

This is Tally, who shows the ragged socks that end in points, small white marks on her belly, and roaning at her flanks. Her son also shows sabino characteristics. We has a louder sabino mare - I'll try and find a pic in a while.

Sabino is often better expressed on a red base - so often shows more on a chestnut (or even bay) coat than on black.

[chev]

I'm getting there Talou... ;) :o

3. Splashed White

Splashed White is, like sabino, usually grouped with overo patterns. It can be extremely striking, or very minimal. Splashed Whites share a number of characteristics with other overo patterns, including very extensive white of the head and white limbs but are different in appearance.

Where sabino markings tend to be ragged, roaned or lacy at the edges, and rounded on tobiano, splashed white is usually very distinct - as if the horse has been dipped in paint. Markings can vary from a white face (blue eyes are common) where just the ears have colour, or a leg that's white to the elbow, through to extensive overo patterns on the body.

Where tobiano patterns tend to start from the top, splashed white starts from the belly and goes up.

Pic shows typical splashed white head - note blue eye - the mare's face could have been dipped in paint. These two also carry tobiano.

[wonderpony]

mmm. very interesting. I'm wondering if Indie might be a sabino - will have to go and check those socks tomorrow!

Just wondered why all these names exist and what is the significance of them. Also, why do they all end -ino?

And why you are so interested in them?

[chev]

Rabicano....

Rabicano is a roaning pattern that can be easily confused with true roan. Like true roan it causes white hair to be mixed in with the base colour, but it also has notable differences.

First is a characteristic tail marking - like white stripes at the base of the tail. Sometimes this is the only indicator.

Roaning, when it occurs in rabicano, is usually more extensive on the hindquarters and flanks. A true roan will have white evenly distributed throughout the body - rabicano is more obviously roan at the quarters, and although the roaning can be widespread, rarely affects more than the quarters, underside, and tail. Shoulders and neck are largely unaffected by the gene..

Rabicano also acts in a similar way to sabino in that roaning is often more marked on the belly and legs. A true roan won't show roan on the legs.

[chev]

wonderpony - no idea why they're called what they are! I'm interested because I'm basically an anorak that reads too much and should get out more...

And so on to overo.

Overo is the name given to a group of genes that includes sabino, rabicano, and anything else not tobiano! Probably the most widely recognised overo pattern is frame.

Frame overo has several obvious and distinct characteristics.

White does not cross the spine between withers and tail (it can cross over the neck).

Upper legs are generally dark, although there may be white on lower legs.

Head markings are bold and often accompanied by blue eyes.

Markings are irregular and scattered, although tending to be similar on both sides.

Tail is usually one colour.

Frame overo originates in Spanish horses, and is linked to Lethal White Syndrome.

Lethal Whites are horses homozygous for the frame overo gene - that is, they carry two copies. For some reason their intestines fail to develop properly, and the foals die. The only way to avoid this is by not breeding frame overo to frame overo. Because so many patterns including sabino and splashed white can appear so similar, the only way to ascertain whether a horse is a frame overo is through lab testing.

Not all white foals are Lethal whites though - if a foal is born white and survives, there's a very high chance that a combination of genes such as frame and sabino have expressed themselves to the point where base colour is hidden completely.

[Talou]

Originally posted by chev
I'm getting there Talou... ;) :o

So i see!:D
One thing though.....

I still don't understand what rabicano is...:o

And what is true roan? Or roan for that matter...Lol...stupid me!:o

*Telling myself: Stop asking so many questions Talia!!!*

[chev]

Rabicano's a strange one - the most obvious marking it causes is the striping at the top of the tail. It looks like stripes on a tabby cat, but they're white. It can also cause roaning, most heavily on the quarters, belly, and legs. Not a very exciting gene really!

True roan is what we would recognise as strawberry roan, red roan and so on. The roan gene is separate to all the roaning caused by the overo group of genes. A true roan will have evenly distributed white hair throughout the body, but the head and legs are unaffected. At least one parent will also be roan - it's a simple dominant, and will be expressed if a horse carries it.

An interesting thing with roans is the way the coat reacts to injury... on a solid coat, hair on the site of an injury will often grow back white. On a roan, it grows back as the base colour, with no white. So scars on a roan can look like stripes of darker hair.

Roaning just describes the way that on some horses white hair is mixed in with the base colour.

[Nicole5310]

What about Dilutes? surely they fit into the coloured horse category. This is going to get very long.... Can I help?????

There are four main genes that dilute horse coat colours- like adding milk to your coffee....

the CREAM gene,
the CHAMPAGNE gene,
the SILVER gene, and
the DUN gene

Hmm maybe it would be a good time to start with base coat colours... over to you Chev, he he! :D

[chev]

I've got to sleep sometime you know.... ;) :D

Dilutes.... maybe a new thread for those, since they have a different effect to the pattern genes like those in this thread (Mike is going to love me isn't he?! :D )

[Talou]

Thanks for explaining chev:)

[wonderpony]

chev ... do you do this (or something like it?) for a living?

Thanks very much for explaining .... find this fascinating and have never read about it before.

[chev]

No... I would love to but I don't honestly have the brain power. It's just something that really fascinates me. Knew next to nothing about it a couple of years ago, started reading, and just found it incredibly interesting.

[Bloss]

Wow this is really interesting
:D

So Lottie is a brown tobiano mare although she is black apart from her muzzle, how does a brown one work?

Lottie-http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Colouredcob/DSC01097.jpg

and Cappy??? from what you have said i think he must be a Sabino. I will attach a recent (very bad) picture of him-- i know he is horribly overbent:o

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/Colouredcob/cappyunusual.jpg

I wish i had an older picture of him. He is getting lighter and lighter. He used to be brown with white spots over his back with a almost black mane. He is now 8.:D

edit- sorry the pics are so big-- does anyone know how to resise them

[chev]

Lottie is a dark bay tobiano - see how her muzzle and flank are lighter? That's dark bay, which is bay with the addition of a sooty gene. Then she has tobiano to give the coat pattern on top of that. She also looks like she has sabino - hence the wide blaze - tobiano won't do that.

Cappy's not a sabino - he's actually a Varnish roan, which is one of the Appaloosa complex of patterns. It's characterised by the roaning and lightning of the coat, which gradually overtakes any other pattern - the bay base with (probably?) blanket spots he had when he was younger, in Cappy's case.

[JustJas]

Have a classis bay tobiano filly.
sorry pic small!

[WelshJumper]

I have got Tobiano's

All the pics are soo lovley.

This is one of my mares, Keldawyth.

[Nicole5310]

Sorry Chev, maybe i will start a new thread if anyone wants to know about dilutes.

You know having dilutes, its so frustrating when people dont know the difference between buckskin and dun and they argue black and blue with out having ever found out the facts.

It is such an interesting topic. I too have delved deeply into the world of horse colour genetics just out of interest.:D

[chev]

Have a look around Nicole - there is, somewhere, a thread on all four dilutes :D

I know exactly what you mean about the confusion though. It's incredibly frustrating when you look at things like Welsh pedigrees and find so many ponies have been misregistered for colour. Makes being an anorak very difficult at times... :D

[wonderpony]

Hi chev, I'm really interested to know if you think these genetic combinations affect just colour, or if there are other differences in their make-up, personalities as well ....

[Bloss]

Thanks Chev, so many people call Cappy so many diferent things. I will be able to tell them now rather than just errrrming and aaahhhhing when i get asked .:D

[chev]

wonderpony.... my feeling is that it would be difficult to form a link between colour genetics and personality to be honest. It's true that certain colour genes affect physical development - at least in the case of frame overo and the intestinal deformities in horses homozygous for the gene - but it's almost impossible to say how, or why this happens.

I think it's unlikley that the vast majority have any links to other characteristics - given that most colour genes occur in so many breeds, all of which tend to have their own characteristics anyway, it's hard to see how anything otyher than appearance could be attributed to the vast majority of colour genes.

Take for example tobiano in gypsy cobs - these horses have a reputation for being, quiet, kind, gentle and laid-back. (Not my experience - I've found they're equally likely to be bolshy, strong and self-opinionated but that's a whole new story!). So you could argue that tobiano is linked to this gentle personality. But then how would that fit in with coloured sport horses? - same tobiano gene, but very different in personality (generally speaking) to your average gypsy cob. A sport horse will tend to be much more of a performer - they are usually different to manage, have largely different needs, and would scare the pants of most novices that would happily plod round with their gypsy cob. Is there any difference between a bay gypsy cob and a tobiano gypsy cob? Not truly, other than in individual temperament. Same with a bay sport horse and a tobiano sport horse. But the differences between a tobiano gypsy cob and a tobiano sport horse are vast!

There have been plenty of beliefs with regard to colour - chestnut mare syndrome being one, the idea that white hooves are weaker than dark being another, glass eyes have poorer vision yet another. Largely they are just myths though. It does seem that pink skin is more susceptible to damage than dark - white noses get sunburnt where dark ones don't, white legs tend to get mud fever before dark ones - so in that respect then yes, pigment does affect more than just appearance. It's no different to skin reactions in people though - fair people burn in the sun faster than dark people because the pigment in the skin is what protects us.

Colour is determined by two main factors. What pigment a horse carries (black or red - or none at all) and how it's distributed. That's basically what all these genes and alleles do, and only that.

[Casey76]

Oh, I guess that would make Leon a chestnut sabino then?

I've always wondered about the roaning through his coat :)

PS. Please excuse the slobber on my front :rolleyes:

[chev]

Yep, he's chestnut sabino. :)

[stoli_dolly]

Hello chev,
thankyou for some very interesting reading, I was looking for a palomino Arab mare to purchase before learning from you there is no such thing as a 100% pally arab so have purchased the next best thing in my eyes. Bindy,I think she is a sabino, and would like to know more about the leathal white gene. Could you recommend and sites that would explain this a bit more to me if it is too big of a topic for this forum.
Bint Kadu (Bindy) is on my profile pic.

Tracey

[chev]

This (http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73835) thread explains roughly what lethal white is about. I'll see what else I can dig up for you. :)

[cvb]

Chev

Dr Dave the chiro who works a lot with Mark Rashid was here last week. We were joking as two of the horses were chestnut mares... but we figured as we were in Scotland that myth probably didn't apply... and anyway, says Dave, "there's no such thing as a bad colour" (semi-quoting Mark)... well what about lethal white says I...

which he hadn't heard about ....so maybe I should send him that link ;)

[Mimi + Me]

Hi Chev,

Could you please tell me what colour you would say my mare is? I call her a dun skewbald, the passport agency class her just as a skewbald, my riding instructor says she's tri-coloured and I saw a horse at Hickstead that looked like her described as a dun splash. I'm a bit confused!

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f200/emmageegee/Mimi.jpg I know she's a bit far away, basically her legs are 3/4 white and here's just one of just her head:

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f200/emmageegee/Mimi2.jpg

Look forward to hearing from you!

[chev]

cvb - you could try mentioning lavender foal syndrome in Arabians too (a dilute colour gene that causes neurological symptoms and usually death) and the possible links between silver dapple and certain eye disorders in some horses too!

emma - your mare is actually not dun at all - she's buckskin based. A buckskin is a bay that carries a cream gene, which dilutes red pigment on the body to a shade of gold. A cream gene on a chestnut horse results in palomino; on a bay it results in buckskin (whihc has traditionally been confused with dun in the UK for years!). She also carries tobiano; that's the gene that gives her the white patches. Tobiano is one of several genes that can cause white patterns on the body; splash can, sabino can, and overo can, but they all follow distinct patterns, and your mare is tobiano.

So strictly speaking she's a buckskin tobiano. She doesn't carry splash (they have very characteristic face markings, not like your mare) and doesn't look in those pics to be carrying sabino either (you'd again expect more white on the head, belly and probably some roaning too).

In layman's terms, she'd be skewbald; and since terms like buckskin and tobiano are not really widely used or recognised here yet horses like her do tend to be labelled with all sorts of exotic names. She isn't dun, or splash though; some will tell you that 'tricoloured' and 'skewbald' are incorrect but they've obviously never tried to get the average passport agency to recognise 'buckskin tobiano'!

If you registered her with CHAPS though that's the term you'd need to use.

[Mimi + Me]

OK thanks for that, it's nice to hear from someone with a lot of knowledge for these things - she's just a plain 'skewbald' then!

[stoli_dolly]

Chev,

Do you think my horse is a sabino?
(Maybe you should start to charge for this service.....lol)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g205/stoli_dolly/th_bintkadu2.jpg (http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g205/stoli_dolly/bintkadu2.jpg)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g205/stoli_dolly/th_bintkadu3.jpg (http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g205/stoli_dolly/bintkadu3.jpg)

These are her dam and sire

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g205/stoli_dolly/th_PAMPASBINTAVIVA1987chestnutF13326.jpg (http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g205/stoli_dolly/PAMPASBINTAVIVA1987chestnutF13326.jpg)

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g205/stoli_dolly/th_TanderraKadu1984greyS9745.jpg (http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g205/stoli_dolly/TanderraKadu1984greyS9745.jpg)

[josei]

hey all, im new to this forum. I have a Solid Paint mare that is registred as a solid breader but I suppect she may not be a solid but a Sabino. Her sire was a Tobino sorrel. the dame was a sorrel overo. Annie is a sorrel with low white rough edged pointed socks on her back legs. she also has roaning on one side of her rib cage close to her flanks. has white hairs in her mane and tail. the tail also has black hairs. She also has some white hairs on her face were a star would be and random ones further down the fron of her face. I will go take pics of these markings today and post them.

thanks
Josei

[chev]

stoli-dolly - yes, your horse carries sabino :) - the ragged socks and irregular blaze are typical sabino markers.

Josei - even if your mare does carry sabino, she'd still be classed as a solid. Very few sabinos breed loudly marked foals - most are, to all intents and purposes, solid horses, even when the sabino is expressed loudly enough to show up as belly splashes or stockings that extend up onto the thigh or forearm.

Those that are very loudly marked are only marginally more likely to throw equally loudly marked foals than those that are not.

Solid is usually used to describe a horse that does not carry tobiano or frame genes, which, if she has no obvious pattern on her body, she doesn't.

[josei]

Chev thanks for the info that clears things up for me, it's all so confusing.
Anyway she is due to foal around the last of april here are pics of her and the sire.

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/558307434iOGVFX

[pengapenga]

Hi Chev

I have a colour question again:o I never really thought about it all before but as a breeder (wannabe:D) I am thinking a lot more about colour gentics etc:)

If I wanted to breed a coloured foal, with Frits being the sire for example, would I need to be looking at a mare with the Tobiano gene?

Of the coloured genes is there one that would throw almost certainly coloured foals?

Sorry if they are stupid questions but am interested to know on two levels, one breeding a coloured friesian sportshorse and the other is putting a solid mare to a coloured stallion:)

[coyote]

chev....are sabino's eligable to go in coloured classes at local shows if it says in the program : coloured including palomino,roan,dun,skewbald,piebald ect.
here is a pic of my 3yr old lad he has 4 white socks/stockings ,white blaze that goes under his chin and throat and a large splash under his belly.here is a pic of him with his mummy too.thanks
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/coyotegreyhounds/Image011.jpghttp://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t209/coyotegreyhounds/1008200.jpg

[Nookster]

So whats my boy?

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i185/Cath555/Voltan%2021jun07/Dscf0349.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i185/Cath555/Voltan%2021jun07/Dscf0355.jpg

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i185/Cath555/Voltan%2021jun07/Dscf0347.jpg

[coyote]

bloody gorgeous is what he is!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D:D:D:D

[chev]

Hi Chev

I have a colour question again:o I never really thought about it all before but as a breeder (wannabe:D) I am thinking a lot more about colour gentics etc:)

If I wanted to breed a coloured foal, with Frits being the sire for example, would I need to be looking at a mare with the Tobiano gene?



Yes - there are other genes that throw loud patterns, but tobiano is always going to be the best bet if you want colour. Ideally, you'd need a mare tested homozygous for tobiano (carries two copies of tobiano) since that would guarantee a coloured foal. A mare with one copy gives you exactly a 50/50 chance of tobiano.


Sorry if they are stupid questions but am interested to know on two levels, one breeding a coloured friesian sportshorse and the other is putting a solid mare to a coloured stallion:)

Not stupid at all! Generally, if you want a good chance of a coloured pattern, tobiano is the best bet. Genes like sabino and splashed white can sometimes throw big patterns, but are also just as likely to throw very minimal markings so you just end up with big socks and blazes.

chev....are sabino's eligable to go in coloured classes at local shows if it says in the program : coloured including palomino,roan,dun,skewbald,piebald ect.
here is a pic of my 3yr old lad he has 4 white socks/stockings ,white blaze that goes under his chin and throat and a large splash under his belly.[/IMG]

Sabinos are eligible depending on how loudly marked they are. Generally, there must be a decent white patch above the level of elbow and stifle. Belly splashes are not enough to enter coloured classes, unfortunately.

So whats my boy?

Erm... lush!! :D

He's bay tobiano - the tobiano is what's given him the pattern, and he's bay underneath it. But... he also carries sabino - it's the sabino that's given him the ragged blaze and white legs. Tobiano doesn't actually cause blazes, white faces or big white socks; your boy is a good example of two pattern genes at work in the same horse. :)

[Nookster]

He's bay tobiano - the tobiano is what's given him the pattern, and he's bay underneath it. But... he also carries sabino - it's the sabino that's given him the ragged blaze and white legs. Tobiano doesn't actually cause blazes, white faces or big white socks; your boy is a good example of two pattern genes at work in the same horse. :)

Thanks

So he's a heinz 57 when it comes to colouring :D just chuck it in and stir it round and see what you get kinda thing :o From this can you tell what colour his parents where or is that not something you can be sure of ?

What would i class him as if someone asked his colouring - as above ?

Will he be able to do coloured classes with his bleeding of colours?

[pengapenga]

Nookster Voltan is stunning:D

Thanks Chev for shedding light on colour genetics:D

[tabithakat64]

Fudge is registered as dun, but I think he's buckskin and white. What colour is he technically??? http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l284/tabithakat64/0705230039.jpghttp://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l284/tabithakat64/4ab7a1c4.jpg http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l284/tabithakat64/e34093c4.jpgHe has a white splash on his belly and also one blue eye.

[Palomino Mare]

nookster he is just too darn se*y;):D

Chev - have only just found this thread and its very interesting although...i'm lost already:o
what i do now think though is that jerry may have the sabino gene:confused::eek:
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/amydalgleish87/DSC00117.jpg
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w28/amydalgleish87/11.jpg
he also has white under his chin and his body is specled with white hairs

[chev]

From this can you tell what colour his parents where or is that not something you can be sure of ?

What would i class him as if someone asked his colouring - as above ?

Will he be able to do coloured classes with his bleeding of colours?

You know for definite that at least one parent was tobiano, and at least one black-based, and at least one carried the agouti allele (bay). It's also certain that at least one carried sabino.

He'd be classed as as bay tobiano, and yes, he'd be eligible for coloured classes.


Fudge is registered as dun, but I think he's buckskin and white. What colour is he technically??? He has a white splash on his belly and also one blue eye.

You're absolutely right that he's buckskin and not dun. He looks like he too carries sabino, but it's likely he also carries splash white; splash white causes big wide blazes and often goes hand-in-hand with blue eyes. From the pics and description, I'd have to say he's not eligible for showing as a coloured - most coloured societies state there must be at least one definite patch of white on the body (ie above the line of elbow or stifle).

what i do now think though is that jerry may have the sabino gene:confused::eek: he also has white under his chin and his body is specled with white hairs

I think you're right; the ticking (white hairs in the coat) is typical of sabino, as are ragged edges to the socks and blaze (which is usually irregular) and the white under his chin. He's a good example of a more minimal sabino.

[Palomino Mare]

fascinating! thank you Chev! can you recommend any books for dummies on genetics and colouring?

[chev]

Equine Colour Genetics ll by D Philip Sponenberg is a really good one. It was reprinted a couple of years ago (original version was 1995 or something) and I'd recommend you try and find a new copy.

Also try Jeanette Gower's Horse Colour Explained - but be aware that there are subtle differences between Gower's notation and Sponenberg's.

[Nookster]

Thanks Chev

Really enjoying this thread and the different examples - really interesting :)

[MrDCBags]

so is mine tobiano or sabino or both? He is skewbald under all the dirt and on nearside has a couple of black spots on his flank

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z286/MrDCBags/100_0826-1.jpg


http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z286/MrDCBags/100_0825-1.jpg


if you stand one side of him he has a blaze and if you stand the other side he has a white face!! two looks for the price of one!!

[chev]

Most horses of his type do carry sabino so it's highly likely he does (hence the ragged edges to his splodges). He is also definitely tobiano.

The white face however is down to neither of those two genes - it's splashed white. Splashed white has very typical facioal markings; big blazes that are often wider in the middle (not like sabino, which tends to give bottom-heavy ragged blazes) and are quite often one-sided, so half the face is white, and the other side is not. Is the eye on the white side blue? Not all splash whites have blue eyes, but it is very common.

[nasring]

Hi - I am new to this forum and discovered it while trying to research the colour of my gelding. I hope I'm posting this in the right place!!

After a week of hunting I am fairly sure he is a Black or Blue Sabino - but I would love others opinions and in particular some help identifying his base colour and any other possible gene effects going on. The first picture was taken three weeks ago, and the second was taken in September last year.

Here are a couple of pictures of Marley:

http://www.nasring-rai.net/marleygetsgoing.GIF

http://www.nasring-rai.net/marley%20ss%20show.GIF

It is not easy getting good pictures of his body colour, but his summer coat is a mixture of black and brown hairs with roaning to the whole body but there is slightly more roaning under his belly, but no white splashes, which I think excludes him from being a Blagdon?

The mane and head are near black, although he has a few brown / dark chestnut hairs in his mane.

His tail is black underneath but from the top grow some white and some brown hairs, so it looks pretty pepper pot on the top.

His sheath is spotted (pink on black). He has a widish white face (but not covering his eyes) and a pink chin. He has irregular stockings (knifeblade?) on his hind legs, but his fore legs are black. His roaning increases and fades to white on his hind legs.

He is a typical gypsy / vanner cob type with lovely full, silky mane, tail and feathers. In winter he grows a black very course overcoat and looks black (I don't rug him and he lives out all year).

Marley is just 5 and I have had him for a year now, and his colour hasn't changed apart from the winter coat coming and going.

I'd love any ideas? What I find confusing is that although I have seen pictures of Blue and Black Sabinos, neither have the brown haris, which as I hope you can see from the first picture, make him darker than the Blue Sabinos but not anywhere are dense a colour as the black :confused:

[Lgd]

We have three Rabicano horses.

Peri is bay at first sight but has white hairs in the top of her tail (or did before she decided to scrub it :mad: and light roaning over her back and stifle area.

George is closely relate, being by the same stallion and out of Peri's grand-dam. He is chestnut and has quite a lot more roaning than her.

I honestly don't know which side it has come from - I never remember any roaning on Peri's dam and she was bright bay. Her sire did have gray flecks in his coat in later life (he was late 20's when he went) but I never remember any on himas a young horse.

Belle (P's daughter) is the interesting one. She is very clearly Rabicano - has quite a bit of white flecking over her back, flanks and quarters although it doesn't really show on photos. However she has the strangest leg markings.

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=16671


http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=16672

What you also can't see on the pics is that she has chestnut ermine marks round the base of her hind socks - not just one or two either, must be half a dozen on both legs. Any genetic explanation for that?

[Nik-n-Kia]

Chev

What is this boy then?? He is my mates Jumping horse but he has always just been called piebald???

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p120/Nik-n-Kia/KirstyAmos3.jpg

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p120/Nik-n-Kia/kirstyAmos1.jpg

Nikki xxxxx

[domane]

Ludo's a sabino.

Classic markings (apparently!) I just thought he was a "coloured" until I was educated....:p

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a179/domane/Ludo/2007_0427First0017.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a179/domane/DSCF0480-1.jpg

I think he's starting to roan out now as well.....

[Amanda22]

can you tell me what my horse is? i just thought she was piebald lol!
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc286/Amanda_2007_22/roxy_caverswall4.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc286/Amanda_2007_22/roxy_caverswall1.jpg
thnxx!:D

[Kerpug]

Hi Chev

Can you tell me what my boy's colouring is?
He's an Ardennais x and i now think of him as a red roan.
When i got him i was told strawberry roan by previous owner and vets but woman from freezemark company said bay roan. The french i think class as red roan but not sure

IMG]http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb209/kerpug/CNV00011.jpg[/IMG]

[Kerpug]

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb209/kerpug/CNV00011.jpg

[chev]

Sorry Kerpug, onluy just seen this.

You're right that your boy is bay roan; also known as red roan. Strawberry roan is chestnut + roan; blue roan is black + roan.

[chev]

Amamnda22 - yours is black tobiano (also known as piebald).

[Amanda22]

tar;):D

[chev]

Just realised I missed a couple more... :o

Nik - your lad is another black tobiano. :)

Nasring - yours is definitely sabino (and all the roaning on his body is down to sabino). He may also be rabicano - can't see his tail well enough to say for sure, but rabicano causes 'skunk tail' and also roaning that's heavier on the quarters than anywhere else.


An interesting point with white patterns like sabino is that they tend to be more loudly expressed on red-based horses.

[coss]

So is dawn sabino based on a few white hairs (you can't see in pics) a triangle of white on her chin, strange shaped blaze (?) and strange shaped socks?
http://file012a.bebo.com/6/large/2006/07/14/09/1359860817a1360096264b806664802l.jpg
http://file014a.bebo.com/6/large/2006/08/04/22/1359860817a1586309074b39062481l.jpg
http://file036a.bebo.com/3/large/2007/05/13/20/1359860817a4370556418b286691167l.jpg

[Kerpug]

Sorry Kerpug, onluy just seen this.

You're right that your boy is bay roan; also known as red roan. Strawberry roan is chestnut + roan; blue roan is black + roan.

I didn't know bay roan and red roan were the same so thanks for that.

[chev]

coss - yes, she's sabino. :)

[sancho]

Just seen this thread (guilty as charged for not realising there are other places other than Gen, Cafe and Mature:o).

My mare is passported as piebald but Im not so sure. Jet black in the winter, lovely brown conker coloured in the summer and with ermine marks and a strange roan patch on one side.

Is she piebald or other? Thanks Chev.
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii93/sancho_horses/031_312-1.jpg

[Skippys Mum]

Arnie is passported (CHAPS) as bay tobiano. Is he also sabino for his white blaze and under his chin?

Thanks Chev:)

Sancho, we have got to do pairs cross country one day:D

ps scuse his grumpy face - apparently he didnt appreciate getting his jammies pulled off for a photoshoot:(

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj244/torchy500/CIMG3263Small.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj244/torchy500/CIMG3266Small.jpg

[chev]

Just seen this thread (guilty as charged for not realising there are other places other than Gen, Cafe and Mature:o).

My mare is passported as piebald but Im not so sure. Jet black in the winter, lovely brown conker coloured in the summer and with ermine marks and a strange roan patch on one side.

Is she piebald or other? Thanks Chev.

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii93/sancho_horses/031_312-1.jpg

She looks piebald to me. The brown colour in summer is probably fading; lots of black do fade to really dark brown in the sun.

Arnie is passported (CHAPS) as bay tobiano. Is he also sabino for his white blaze and under his chin?

Thanks Chev:)

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj244/torchy500/CIMG3263Small.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj244/torchy500/CIMG3266Small.jpg

The white on his chin, under his jaw, and on his legs are all down to sabino, yes. :)

[sancho]

Thanks Chev! was expecting you to say sabino given the white markings but piebald is just fine!

Skippys Mum - I never realised they were so similar in markings!!!! He's lovely, Taya would Luuurrrvvve Arnie!!!:D

[MagicSix]

Hi Chev - very interesting thread if a bit confusing. If you have time could you tell me what these two are that would be great

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg2/6Magic6/camera1008.jpg
She has two small white markings either side of her neck - u can just about see it

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg2/6Magic6/camera1011.jpg

Thanks

PS -ignore the frost:D

[chev]

The one with obvious white is a dark bay tobiano. Also looks like he (she?) carries sabino, looking at those socks.

The chestnut is interesting - what colour were her parents? If one of them was also tobiano (piebald or skewbald) it's possible she's a very minimally marked tobiano. She too also has sabino.

[MagicSix]

The chestnuts mum was palamino and the dad a paint stallion (no idea officially what colour but skewbald to me!!). Does this mean that her genes are quite mixed up?

[chev]

No - it just means that she could be 'coloured' - if she is she's very minimal but you could find out with genetic testing. If she is a minimal tobiano, she could throw coloured stock.

If her dad was frame, as opposed to tobiano, she could be a minimal frame.

[MagicSix]

Thanks

[MagicSix]

Sorry - me again:D. Just remembered she also has some white on her bottom so slightly more coloured but is she white enough to be concidered skewbald?

[chev]

For most coloured societies a horse must have a patch around 6" square above elbow and stifle. She may not qualify... but that does not mean she's not coloured.

[MagicSix]

So to describe her colour eg. insurance reasons or selling etc, would it be OK to call her Skewbald or just liver chestnut? Sorry I am picking your brain soo much:D

[chev]

If she does carry frame or tobiano, yes, you could state that she does.

It's actually easy enough to test her, if you want to know for sure. Since there's a possibility she carries frame, I'd definitely have her tested for olws (overo lethal white) - if it comes back positive you should avoid breeding her to another frame horse as in homozygous form (two copies of it) the gene is lethal.

[MagicSix]

Thanks again