Anyone want to know about greys and roans...?

[chev]

Greys first, because they're nice and easy to understand.

Grey acts as a dominant gene, and some consider it technically not a colour gene but a colour-replacing gene. A horse only needs one copy of grey to go grey. Greying is not related to age - horses that will go grey show signs of doing so as early as six months old, when they start to shed the baby coat.

Interestingly, foals that will go grey are often born a deeper colour than those that don't. For example; a bay horse will usually be born with fawn coloured legs - it's only when they shed the foal coat that the black points show up. A bay foal destined to go grey will often be born with a deep bay coat and black legs.

Greys don't just grow white hair - the first stage of the greying process also adds black hair, so some colours will appear to get darker instead of lighter as they grow.

All greys, if they live long enough, will end up white. They will go through a variety of interesting stages to get there though. The first signs are often no more than a sprinkling of white hairs, leading to some confusing their grey for a roan.

Steel greys develop from black horses; rose greys from horses with a red base. At this stage, they are still easy to confuse with roans.

Next stage is dapple grey - by this point it's obvious that a horse is going grey, and not a roan. Some horses remain dapple grey (sometimes quite dark too) for years, while others are completely white by six or seven.

Some greys that have gone white will then develop flea-bitten markings, where they show freckles of black or brown.

Some pictures of grey....

First is Gelfy when we first has him. His body was still very brown - almost roaned, to look at - but note how although his body and points might fit the roan description his face is much whiter. If he'd been roan, his head would have had little or no white on it at all.

[chev]

Next stage - rose grey. He's really obviously going grey now, but still has enough bay pigment to make him a very reddish grey.

[chev]

This stage shows the dappling to good effect, although lots of dapple greys are much darker. He's well on his way to being white now. His mane and tail are getting paler now too, and his legs show some odd patches as they grey out.

[chev]

And this is how he'll eventually end up... This one is May, who was white when we bought her, at just six. She's now starting to show signs of freckles - her flanks have a brown ticking on them in the summer, so she may go fleabitten over the next few years.

[chev]

And roan...

Roan mixes white hair evenly with a horse's base colour. The head and lower legs remain solid with very little or no white.

Roan may not be apparent when a foal is born, but once the foal coat is shed and roan is visible, it remains stable throughout the horse's life. Roan is not progressive - roan horses do not get greyer through life. Nor do they develop later in life - a roan will be roan at birth. Roans do, however, often vary according to the season - it's not uncommon for a roan to be an obvious roan in summer, and then shed out to a darker more solid looking colour in winter. Often they go through very white phases as the coat changes - but these variations will be the same every year - no tlike Gelfy's whose changes are progressive over time.

Roan is not related to Varnish Roan patterns in Appaloosas - Varnish roan is another progressive pattern that gradually overtakes the base colour.

Terminology is confusing with roans - these are one version!

Roan on black - blue roan. Head and lower legs will be black, body mixed with white hairs has a grey, or blue appearance.

Roan on bay - bay or red roan. Again, head remains bay, and the black points remain black, while the body appears a pinkish colour.

Roan on chestnut - legs, head, mane and tail stay chestnut, body is a pale orangey colour.

Roans also show something known as 'corn marks' - that is, where the skin is damaged, instead of the hair growing back white as it would with a solid horse, it grows back in the base colour - so a bay roan would have bay marks where the skin has been scratched in an otherwise roan coat.

[Rips]

Chev your colour threads are brilliant! I think I understand most of what has been said in all three but I still can't figure out my own mare's genes.

If a horse has one grey parent does it have to throw a grey horse? Can a grey have a foal that won't grey out? A brown horse...:confused:

[horseygal90]

Your threads are really interesting me - We've only touched genes in Biology at the minute, and it is a subject I enjoy looking at.

[chev]

Grey is another simple dominant. A horse only needs one copy of the grey gene to go grey - which it gets from one parent or another.

So, if a horse is grey, at least one of its parents must also have been grey.

If a horse has one grey gene (heterozygous for grey) there's a 50/50 chance it'll pass that gene on and throw grey - so yes, a heterozygous grey can have a non-grey foal.. If, however, it has two grey genes, it'll always throw grey.

This is why greys are best avoided in colour breeding programs - nothing more depressing than watching your beautifully marked tobiano foal getting greyer, and greyer....

[Rips]

Interesting, so I know then my mare definately is heterozygous for grey because her dam was grey.

What about brown (she's registered as brown) is this gene like bay? Her sire was a bay from a line of bays and blacks.

While she's registered as brown, and does go very brown sometimes even her mane, she always has black legs and does go almost completely black at some times of the year.
She doesn't have any white hairs or markings.

[chev]

Brown is bay with the addition of a sooty gene - this can turn bay into bay with countershading (that could be as little as a stripe resembling a dorsal stripe) through mahogany bay to dark bay. It's also now believed that the sooty gene is also what causes seal brown, as many seal brown horses are shown to have the Agouti gene (and therefore a bay base) when tested.

If your mare is brown, and showing no signs of grey, then she's not heterozygous for grey - that would mean she has a grey gene. This we know she doesn't - because she's not grey!

Because we don't know what colour her dam is 'under' the grey, it's hard to say what colour she's got from which parent.

[Rips]

Ok, so she got a non-grey gene from her grey dam,who had to be heterozygous, but we can't know what that gene is. Gotcha;)

Well at least then I know she doesn't carry a grey gene:o
Thanks Chev, you should write a book... "Genetics for idiots";)

[chev]

Originally posted by Rips
Ok, so she got a non-grey gene from her grey dam,who had to be heterozygous, but we can't know what that gene is. Gotcha;)

Well at least then I know she doesn't carry a grey gene:o
Thanks Chev, you should write a book... "Genetics for idiots";)

Almost. She just didn't get a grey gene. Grey genes are separate to base colour genes - it's a bit like an optional extra on a car, if you like! If the base colour of car is blue - the grey gene would be like the option of a metallic finish. It doesn't change the fact that the car is blue - but it does change the way it looks.

The book.... that'd be what I read before I got my head round it!! :D

[~Perdita.M~]

These threads are fascinating Chev, thanks!:) Can't get over the difference in Gelfy, the first one looks like he's been rolling in a ditch:D The only interesting things that shams coat does.....um.......in winter he gets some darker grey patches on his hind legs, and........um........he has ONE fleabitten chestnut bit on his neck at all times:D

[Bobbi77]

Originally posted by chev
And roan...


Roan on chestnut - legs, head, mane and tail stay chestnut, body is a pale orangey colour.



This is pretty interesting stuff! Just one thing - our pony is chestnut roan and she is pale orangey - darker in winter - but her mane and tail aren't exactly chestnut - more a dirty grey colour. Ithink she's lovely all the same :)

[chev]

How old is she and do you know what colour her parents were Bobbi? It's possible she has grey - see how her face has white mixed in with it? That's typical of greying, not roan - a roan has no white on the face at all (markings aside, obviously).

So (particularly if she's young still) she could be following a greying pattern and not actually roan at all - greying can look astonishingly like roan at times. She could also be a roan with grey - the grey would slowly overtake the roan pattern and hide it.

Or, she could have sabino in there - very very likely given the white markings on her face - that could cause the roaning too. She could be sabino with roan (which is why her ears are darker - roan works on the body not the head, and sabino working on her face, leaving her ears free from roaning!) or the roaning could be an extensive form of sabino.

The grey in her mane could be unconnected with either - I have a liver chestnut with the same grey mane and tail - if she carried roan as well she'd have the same kind of patterning.

Your pony doesn't look like a classic roan - it could be something else causing the pattern, or roan and something else. If one of her parents is a classic roan it would be easier to say for sure what genes she might be carrying - if neither parent is roan, it's also easy to see she isn't a classic roan. I'd guess at classic roan with extensive sabino roaning on top. Does she have lots of white on her legs or belly?

Whatever she is (and I'm intrigued now!) she's a remarkably pretty pony. :)

[chev]

Perdita - it's even more astonishing when you consider that Gelfy was probably a lovely rich bay with black points when he was born too! Seems a shame somehow that he'll end up white after all that....

[Bobbi77]

Chev, she does have white legs - I have attached a pic that was taken about a year ago. She is rising 4. Her mother was grey and her father was bay. She goes a lovely peachy colour in the summer - almost pink!

[chev]

She is pretty! That's a definite sabino too - the roaning, the white face, the ragged legs - she's absolutely classic.

So we still don't know if she's a true roan since her mother's colour was hidden under grey - she still doesn't look convincing to me though. Very difficult to judge when the sabino is hiding what dark points she would have, but with the possibility of her having inherited grey from mum as well.... My guess would be chestnut sabino greying out, to be honest. The roaning on her body just isn't even enough to be as a result of roan.

She is absolutely gorgeous though! :D

[Bobbi77]

Thanks for that info Chev - I've learnt something new now!

I think she's pretty but I'm a little biassed. At the moment she is a scruffy little madam as she has been turned out for the past 4 months to have some fun! Unfortunately, we will probably be selling her this spring - will be upsetting but Fern will probably have outgrown her by the time she is ready to do any real work with her, and we can't afford to keep two ponies!

She is a lovely little pony though - we adore her :)

[Stiltz]

...

[Lenvale]

Message deleted

[chev]

Stilz, I'm wondering if you have any pics of him in full summer coat? It's almost impossible to say anything about a clipped horse! In that last pic he looks very palomino - there's a possibility that he has roan as well, or he could be a 'sooty' palomino. A bit like the palomino equivalent of a liver chestnut! Any idea what colour his parents are? Again, knowing parents' colour would be a huge help - I'll show you why in a minute....

Lenvale - he sounds interesting! Could be a form of sabino roaning, or rabicano. Any white in his mane or tail? Any pics? :D

This shows you why knowing parents' colour is an advantage. This filly looks like a silver dapple - black with the silver gene - or possibly a palomino going grey. In fact, she's by a cremello stallion out of a dark bay mare - she is, believe it or not, just palomino with sooty to make it darker.... Without knowing her parents' colours it would have been the last thing most people would have guessed!

[Wally]

...on tis subject. Fred the Frog......he is a sort of washed out piebald but with pink tips to the hair giving him a permanently grubby look. There are totally white patches with pink skin beneath, then there are the washed out piebald grey patches mingled with pink hair tips, underneath these is pink skin. He does not seem to have corresponding black skin under the darker wishy-washy patches.

[chev]

That's interesting Wally. In the pics he does look like he's a tobiano with grey, but you'd expect to see pigmented skin where the colour patches are. Most greys are dark-skinned too. It's unusual to find pigmented hair on pink skin.... need to do some reading and get back to you on this one!

[charlottebronte]

brilliant thread chev
please could you help me with my horses colouring. when her coat first comes throung if is definatly black even with a bluey sheen but after a mounth in the sun it fades and turnes brown. here legs are black so is her mane and tail aparts from a few raven high lights. i think her friend annie (palomino) does them for her. is she brown, dark bay or black???

also is their anything i can do to stop her coat fading (not a sheet she wears a rug in the winter and so i like to lets her skin breath and her unconstricted).

[entreat]

Me too! Me too!!
Have a Flea Bitten grey mare, breeding with a Cremello stallion (with two blue eyes). I'm getting a grey, aren't i?

I'll see if I can paste the pedigree...
Nope.. but be back with one shortly...

[entreat]

here we go...
http://www.freewebs.com/codyhorse/thefoal.htm

So the Dam line is pretty much grey. Sire line is pretty much dilutes, from the info I have.

[chev]

charlottebronte... this is your Dales mare? I might have to go and find one of the pics you've posted - but basically a black will have black hair, dark skin, and no paler fawn areas anywhere (like around the eyes, muzzle, flanks and so on). AH Mahal is a true black - note on his pics how his muzzle is black too, and he has no lighter areas at all. Virtuallyhorses' Imp, however, is brown - he has the same black or near black colouring on his body, but paler brown colouring at muzzle and so on. That's a brown horse - research suggests that brown (or seal) horses may well be bay with some kind of modifier, possible sooty. One school of thought says that the only difference between a mahogany bay and brown is the degree to which the darker hair is spread over the body.

So... if she has brown anywhere, she's not black - she's either seal brown or dark bay. Lots of blacks do fade in sunlight, so that's not really an indication (there is a form of black known as non-fading black, or true black - but it's not that common) but the key question is whether she has lighter points.

[chev]

And entreat.... you're guaranteed a dilute foal - a cremello has two dilute genes, so can't help but pass one on to baby! Your mare has one grey and one bay parent - so she only has one grey gene - you have a 50/50 chance of a grey foal.

We don't know what base colour your mare is - under the grey she could be black, bay or chestnut - no way to tell to be honest (unless you fancy sending some mane hair off to a lab!).

So baby will get one red gene and one cream dilute from daddy.... and either black or red from mum, maybe a bay, maybe a grey... :D

Possibilities are palomino, buckskin, or smoky black (which would appear black) depending on mum's genes. They'd all have a 50% chance of greying out.

[entreat]

Thanks Chev! That's great to know! I don't mind what colour it comes out as (or ages into!), as long as it's as sweet as his parents!!

[Stiltz]

...

[chev]

Well looking at those I think he's almost certainly a palomino of sorts - so chestnut with a cream dilute. I think he probably has something along the lines of a sooty gene at work in there too though - if he hadn't had the cream, he would quite likely have been a liver chestnut. The Palomino Society are not at all keen on sooty palominos - they like them clearly golden! - but I actually really like them. You get some really interesting variations and shades. He looks like he's a beautiful colour. :)

[Stiltz]

...

[chev]

I'd call him a dark palomino. He's definitely not strawberry roan - that's chestnut with a roan gene, which causes the body colour to be evenly mixed with white hair while the head, legs, mane and tail are unaffected. Your boy, however, has no dark points typical of roan, and his mane (and presumably tail!) are diluted to white, or near-white - that's typical of a cream dilute, which is what causes palomino on a chestnut horse. I'm sure there's something else at work there too - to give him that sooty appearance - more than likely the same gene that causes dark bay and liver chestnut, or similar.

[Esther.D]

...on tis subject. Fred the Frog......he is a sort of washed out piebald but with pink tips to the hair giving him a permanently grubby look. There are totally white patches with pink skin beneath, then there are the washed out piebald grey patches mingled with pink hair tips, underneath these is pink skin. He does not seem to have corresponding black skin under the darker wishy-washy patches.

I'll have to investigate Bobby's skin colour now as he also has the pink tinge just like Fred....although he is older and so more greyed out now.

[Lenvale]

Message deleted

[charlottebronte]

no all her points are black and they do not fade in the sunlight. does this meen she is black as somebody tryed to tell me she is dark bay but this is a pic of her summer coat coming through

[chev]

She looks pretty black there.... the decider really is to look at her in a summer coat and see if there's a brown sheen to her body, or a more 'blue-black' one. Or to be absolutely conclusive, have her tested for agouti! Some dark bays are so dark they're virtually black in appearance while others are much more obviously brown. Looking at her muzzle there she does look like a black.

A friend of mine bought a black mare, who was really a very dark bay - she had a very brown sheen over her shoulders and hindquarters once her summer coat was properly in. It's almost impossible to say with some horses.... and really not worth arguing. Some people do just seem to love to tell black owners that their horse is really brown!

[charlottebronte]

thank you chev great
were did you learn all this i would love to know

[Jaimee]

Here's one for you Chev!!

This is my childhood pony. She doesnt follow the rules, what do you think she is colour wise?? I have my own thoughts, others have theirs. She was 13.3hh of unknown breeding. Did not have white sclera or stripey hooves, or a dorsal stripe although she did have a dark stripe down the middle of her tail.
She was somewhere between the ages of 9 and 14 here, she never changed colour. Anybody is welcome to put their thoughts forward.

[cvb]

Chev

I can't remember what breed gelfy is - that colouring seems to be quite simialr to our Eriskay mare, and I'm curious how light she'll go. She was apparently bay at birth and is now a kind of rosie dappled grey ;)

Her sire was black (an Eriskay called Kestrel) and I think her dam was grey ( as in white ;) ).

She only arrived in Dec tho we do have some photos from Sept - its going to be interesting to see what her summer coat and colour is :D

This is her the day she arrived
http://groups.msn.com/NRphotos/cvbfifi.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=5834

[HairyCob]

Another question for you Chev- once a grey gets to the 'fleabitten' stage, do they go on getting more and more 'fleabites' every year, or do they reach a point and stop?

Dolly is VERY fleabitten already- lots of pale pinky chestnut bits, and I was wondering if she'll end up looking like the pink spotted pony of my childhood dreams?;)

Also, she has very dark markings on the backs of her hocks- looks like she has rolled that bit in oil- what's that about? Is it just the last of her 'dappling'? I believe she was strikingly dappled in her younger years:)

Great threads these colour ones BTW- thankyou for all your hard work:)

[chev]

Jaimee - there's a couple of possibilities there. In the second pic she looks like a classic roan with some appaloosa pattern (the spotty skin would suggest that). Although you say she never changed colour, there's a lot mroe roaning on the second pic than on the first. If that was a seasonal change then that too would suggest classic roan. If however she did get more roaned as she got older, then the pattern is failry typical of varnish roan (unusual to see so little roaning on the head with varnish roan though).

The other possibility is rabicano. Rabicano causes 'skunk' tail - where there's white striping and roaning on the dock and the quarters - the first pic is quite typical of that. The white tail, heavily roaned quarters and darker shoulder and head is very rabicano.

Without knowing her breeding or being able to see pics of her as a foal and yearling it's almost impossible to say for sure.

cvb - Gelfy is I'm afraid an unknown as far as breeding goes. In some ways he looks sec C ish, maybe crossed with short cobby type or something, but to be honest, he could have anything in there (and probably does!). Your Eriskay will eventually go white - as do all greys who live long enough! It's difficult to say how quickly she'll grey out - some ponies are white by the age of four (as May was) while others seem to retain a fair bit of pigment into their teens. Gelfy is getting whiter very quickly now - I think by his early teens he will be pretty much white all over. What you'll find is that she'll get paler each time she sheds out her coat; so each winter and summer coat will be progressively whiter each year.

HC - That's another odd one - fleabitten markings do vary quite a lot. Some horses get none at all - some get so many they look almost roaned from a distance. It's not uncommon to see what's called 'bloody shoulders' on Arabs - kind of like freckles that are so concentrated they look like roan patches.

It seems that in some greys, the process by which pigment is no longer produced in the hair follicle is reversed to an extent; she won't get spotty as such, or end up solid coloured again, but most horses that do develop freckles develop a lot of them if they live long enough.

[chev]

And the dappling! Forgot that bit :D Greys hold onto pigment on their legs and in mane and tail longer than anywhere else. The dark bits on her hocks are basically what's left of whatever colour she was originally. Some horses end up with dark knees and hocks long after the rest of them is completely white; it sounds like Dolly is one of those :)

[LCQH]

Chev, QH can also get bloody marks. A mare I know is starting to get one, the guy said each year that spot gets a bit bigger and denser.

A question about grays: What decides their mane and tail color? My mare has a gray and white mane with a white tail. And does anything dictate their face markings? She's a flea-bitten with a star, strip, and snip.

Here's three pictures that really add nothing to the discussion:

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1323/hi28tc.jpg
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1807/aheadsmaller6ej.jpg
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1688/peekaboo24nz.jpg


EDIT: Sorry, I didn't see this was an old topic.

[chev]

Don't worry - just because it's been up a while doesn't mean new input isn't welcome! :D

Nice pics - that's a lot of fleabites!

Usually a grey will retain colour in the mane and tail longer if it was born with black points (so black or bay based, with no dilute genes that would affect point colour) and those are the greys you see with dark points, Chestnut based horses will usually end up with white mane and tail faster - but all greys do eventually end up with white or near-white mane and tail hair.

Markings are caused by environmental factors (in utero) and genetics separate from grey - sabino and splash are the two most common causes of white markings on horses. They are quite characteristic markings though - markings like those your mare has are thought to be either random developmental markings or very minimal expressions of that type of gene.

[Happy H]

i have had my horse since she was 3. a couple of years down the line, she went from hairy dark grey with white feature, to being almost white, but with grey colourings. i love her colours, but just want to know if she was suppose 2 b this colour? her papers say she is grey, but she is really roan grey with hints of dark. il post a pic soon.:confused:

[pengapenga]

Thanks Chev for your colour threads. I now know that since I want to breed horses in the dark range, I should not consider the grey mare:)

(although a grey friesain looking friesian warmblood would be interesting:) )

[shazzel61]

Hi there,
This is my very first posting so excuse any strange happenings.....

I found your thread very interesting. I have a mare in foal. She is a rose grey, I believe, being a sort of dapple grey and having sort of brown hairs intermingled. She has been covered by a black welsh section D stallion. Any idea what sort of foal colouring I might expect...I know nothing on this subject (as you may have guessed) so any straight forward information would be very welcome, thank you...

[entreat]

Chev will be better help, but if she's got brown hairs (not chestnut?) she'll likely be a bay or brown under the grey. That's my guess! ;)

My mare has what looks like chestnut flea-bites, and she's being covered by a cremello stallion (for those that vaguely remember, I put in foal two years ago, but the foal slipped, and I waited a season to being her back into better timing for foaling)... so my chances are grey, palomino, buckskin. I have looked at her pedigee, but as it's all 50% grey across both lines, I have no clue what her base coat is!!

[chev]

shazzel; base colour of your foal will depend on what colour tha mare is *under* the grey, and whether the stallion is homozygous for black (that is, whether he has two black genes or one black and one red). You've probably got a chance of bay and black, and maybe chestnut.

There's a 50% chance that the foal will go grey if your mare has one copy of grey. If she has two, however, the foal will definitely go grey. :)

[shazzel61]

Thanks Chev.....Chino (my mare) has a golden palomino sire and a grey dam if that makes any more sense. The stallion has had mostly black foals to bay mares....... I'll try to find out what colour his parents are...

[chev]

One grey parent means she'll only have one copy of grey - so there's a 50/50 chance of her foal being grey :)

Difficult to say whether or not she has the cream dilute under the grey; is she registered, and if so, what colour does it say on her papers? Any idea what colour she was born?

Black foals from bay mares just means that the bay mares he covered didn't have two copies of bay! You need to know if he's ever thrown a chestnut - that would tell you if he carries a copy of red. If one of his parents was chestnut then we'd know for sure he had one red gene, but other than that, it's really guesswork without DNA testing.

With your mare's sire being palomino there is a small chance also that she does carry cream - you can actually have her tested for the cream gene if you were really interested. :)

[entreat]

I looked up hair testing, and it's quite cheap! I thought it would be $300+! but its under $100(AUD). I think I'll get that done on my mare. :)

[Wally]

Here's a blue/grey roan, depending on what you call it. A yearling anyway.



http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/sprimble/casper-2006-waas.jpg

[Ptaty70]

wally, is he yours????? he's lush! Chev, is the brown in the mane due to parentage and will this change? presume the pony will go 'white' at some point...??

I think my horse was a blue piebald.. the black bits were very light and the skin is pigmented. When wet he has pink (as I call them 'pig' marks!!!!) marks on his body where the coat was white white. Is now fleabitten

LCQH - what a lovely colour.. .ie. fleabitten! very interesting when it's so dark and pronounced. Almost a new colour!

Oh and a quick aside... i said to an inexperienced woman at the stables somthing about his 'fleabites' and she said 'oh my god, how did fleas get at him, is it serious??? I then realised that maybe it's not a usual term but did make me smile. Felt bad telling her what it actually meant!!!!

[jinglejoys]

Since having Blue I now know why so many greys (whites) are called Blue:D
This is her when I bought her
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/jinglejoys/Afterpurchase.jpg

"Ride and Drive missus but whatever you do don't get on her back!"--couldn't have been old enough to have a bit in her mouth?

and this is her now

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/jinglejoys/cid_001e01c702cbb9e4e1707a1a8351you.jpg

She's gone paler every year and I still miss that Blue/black colour but it would be nice if she turned flea-bitten grey like Sarah-lee
Is a flea-bitten grey that colour from very young or do they go through the gradual change everytime?

[Wally]

Mine won't go white, he's a roan so won't grey out, Froggy in the pic in my signature was a blue piebald when we got him, in 2 years he has greyed out considerably.

BTW the brown in the mane is through sun and wind bleaching it.

[Wally]

Here's his dad, his mum was black.

[shandy84]

Can I have your help with Millie's colouring Chev.

Her dad seems to be a true black with a white blaze and I think possibly white marking on a leg or two. Her mum was apparently a true grey.

Millie was this colour at 1 and three months on looks a fraction darker, would she be considered roan? Is there a chance she will go grey or black? Her mane is dark but has almost red highlights in it same with her tail. In addition the grey markings on her legs seem to have crept slightly higher up her leg still under hock and knee but seem a little more defined against the rest of her coat.

What do you think?

[chev]

She's pretty! She's also black going grey, not roan.

Have a look at the little blue roan chap Wally posted above; see how his head, legs and mane are all unaffected by the roaning? That's a true roan.

Millie's greying is uniform; it affects all parts of her body. She is iron grey right now, but will get lighter and lighter as she gets older. Grey horses do often get much darker to start with - to begin with, early in teh greying process, dark pigment (dark grey or black on black based horses) is added along with the paler grey and white hair. As she gets more grey though, less and less of the dark hair will appear, and she'll get more and more pale grey and white.

For a horse to be roan, at least one parent must be roan - so they can pass the roan gene on. You do get roans hidden under grey, but even if a horse carries both roan and grey, teh roan will make sure that more pigment if retained in the head and points, until the later stages of grey take over.

She'll probably get some really interesting darker grey patterns on her head and legs over the next couple of years - almost reminiscent of appaloosa roaning. That again is part of greying out.

(Is she yours...? :D )

[shandy84]

Yes she is Chev, Dave and I got her about May time this year :) she belonged to a friend of ours who had her from 4mths old from the New Forest pony sales (have included pics for you) and they did a brilliant job taming her and she is a lovely happy little pony now. I think however we may end up having too many soon as we plan to breed Bramble next year :D

Thankyou for your help on the colour, so there is a real possibility she will end up light grey at some point?

Can I ask what you think Bramble's foal could be if she (chestnut out of chestnut and Dun parents) was crossed with A Bay Roan stallion (solid head)?

[LMS]

Ooooh I'm so glad someone brought this subject up again!

I'm confused about Heidi.

The vet wrote her down as being a chestnut appy with flaxen mane & tail with frost.

But if she's just a chestnut, why does she have white hairs all over her body? Is that because of her appy background?

Sire was a varnish roan appy & dam was a bay standardbred

Heidi has dark points (I believe)because her knees look darker,the inside of her ears and the bridge of her nose, she looks like she has "eyeliner" around the eyes, .

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/LMS68/Heidiabitsnowy5.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/LMS68/DUNDASVET_20060926_1298.jpg
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f256/LMS68/Brownlee2_20060717_0576.jpg

I know these pictures aren't the best. The last picture is a bit washed out. in the summer heidi looks like a copper penny.

[chev]

Bless her Shandy - she's come on really well! Love the blaze too - nice sabino markings there :D She will definitely lighten up as she gets older; all greys do. :)

Bramble has to pass chestnut on to a foal. She may or may not have a bay modifier hidden in the chestnut somwehere from the 'dun' parent (which will have been buckskin - bay with cream - rather than dun). The sire will have black, bay and roan for definite; maybe chestnut too. So you have a chance of black, bay or chestnut foal, and a 50% chance it'll be roan on top of that. :)

LMS - your vet is right; she's flaxen chestnut with frost. The white hair is the frost (part of the appaloosa complex of patterns) and she'll have got that from her sire. Darker points on chestnuts are relatively common - it's not unusual to see them with legs so dark they're almost black to the eye. But chestnuts can't produce black pigment; really close examination will reveal very very pigmented red coat.

[LMS]

So if someone asks me why she has white hairs all over her body, I reply because she's an appy and not a roan?

I guess that's why i was a bit confused, I assumed that the frost was only on the top and not throughout the whole body.

i also assumed that chestnuts didn't have flaxen manes & tails. But then again the roots are chestnut on her.

So then what's the difference between a chestnut and a sorrel? And I guess a palomino who do have the flaxen manes.

Oh and also: if a chestnut has dark points to almost being black, how come it's really red? ohhhh I'm sooo confused!

[chev]

Appaloosa roan is a strange one. The varnish roan gene usually causes extensive roaning all over the body, legs and head, usually with darker areas ('varnish marks') on the bony features - nasal bones, canons, and hip.

Frost appaloosas are like a much more subtle version; frost scatters white hair along the topline, which can be nothing more than a subtle frosting along the back or it can be much more extreme and spread right down the sides - it can look very similar to early stages of varnish roan.

The difference is that frost remains pretty stable through the horse's life; varnish roan acts much as grey does and gradually overtakes any other colour or pattern present, until the horse is mainly roan with just splodges of colour on the legs, nasal bones, and hips.

Frost can vary from just a sprinkling of white on the topline rigth through to roaning that covers the horse right down the ribs.

Next is teh difference between sorrel and chestnut. Basically, there isn't one! Both refer to red horses, and are local terms that can mean different shades or can be used to describe the same thing. Some areas call a bright red horse with red mane and tail sorrel; others class only those red horses with flaxen mane and tail as sorrel. Chestnut basically covers anything from a pale, light red right through to deep copper coloured horses. Both terms just mean 'a red horse'.

You can indeed get flaxen chestnuts! Hafflingers are all flaxen chestnut. Nobody knows yet what governs mane and tail colour in chestnut horses, but it seems to be a gene apart from the actual red body colour gene that dilutes the pigment in mane and tail hair.

A palomino is a red horse that also carries a cream dilute. The cream gene dilutes red body colour to a shade of yellowy gold, and mane and tail hair to white or near-white. Some dark palominos can be mistaken for flaxen chestnuts - but generally a chestnut will have a reddish colour while a palomino will be yellowy, regardless of how dark they are.

As for how dark some chestnuts can be; some of that is governed by modifying colour genes like sooty (or smutty) which cause much darker pigment to be produced in the coat. Most of it is really still in the realms of the unknown... but basically a dark chestnut has more red pigment in teh hair than a light chestnut. The more loaded with pigment the coat, the darker it appeasr visually. But it is just lots of red pigment; red horses, however dark they appear to the eye, cannot produce black pigment at all. They can have points that are so pigmented they look almost black; but it's not black.

Genetically, a red-based horse will have two alleles (an allele is the code in a gene that tells the cells how to develop - in colour genes, they govern what pigment is produced where) that prevent the production of melanin (melanin is black pigment). All they can produce is red - but how much and where depends on what other genes are present and what they do.

[LMS]

Holy cow! That's a lot to sink in as there seems to be a fine line of difference and to the naked eye; it's just so confusing. No wonder I was!

Anyhoo, thank you very much to clearing this up. I don't think the white has changed much on her in the 7yrs I've had her.

So I guess if I bred her: who knows what the foal would look like! but I bet it would be colourful!:D

[shazzel61]

Hi there,
Last bit of info....done some detective work, my mare (palomino sire, grey dam) is registered PBA and her registration cert says she was "chocolate dun/grey" at registration as a foal. The stallion is black but has a bay sire and chestnut dam!! Any further ideas to add please with this info? Thanks very much for your help.....

[chev]

She was more than likely born bay and greyed out then shazzel. Dark bays especially in this country get registered as all sorts of odd colours when they start to grey out - roan being one very common mistake made. 'Cocolate dun' is one of the terms I dread - mainly because it seems to be used here to describe just about everything *except* dun! :D What happens is that a dark bay foal destined to go grey is born a much deeper shade than a dark bay foal that will stay that colour. When they then start to grey out, they do go some very odd dilute shades on the way, which unless the breeder has a grasp of colour genetics tends then to get them misidentified as roans and duns.

It is still possible that she was some kind of buckskin (that's bay with a cream dilute) but that's nearly always (mis)identified as 'golden dun' in the UK, so I'm not convinced. If you were desperate to know, you could actually have her tested for the cream gene (send off a sample of tail hair with roots and they'll tell you whether she has cream or not - costs approx £20) but I suspect she doesn't carry it.

We know she has one red gene, from the palomino sire. We guess (thanks to the chocolate dun registration) that she was maybe born dark bay; so in that case she also has one black and one bay from her mum, as well as the grey.

The stallion's parents make things much easier to predict; he's heterozygous for black (he has one chestnut parent, who must have passed chestnut on - so we know he has one red and one black gene) and doesn't carry bay or any other modifiers.

So - that means you have a 25% chance of chestnut base. If your mare has only one copy of bay, you also have a 37.5% chance of black, and a 37.5% chance of bay. If however she carries two copies of bay (possible; palominos can hide bay and pass it on) then you have a 25% chance of chestnut, and 75% chance of bay.

And then on top of all that, you have a 50% chance that the foal, whatever colour it's born, will go grey. :)

[shazzel61]

Many thanks for all that Chev...its really interesting and a lot more complex than I ever imagined. I'll wait and see...cant change things now shes in foal any way. If the foal is anything like mum or dad it will be gorgeous (but I am biased!!!)...thanks again.....

[chev]

It's not that complex really, honestly. It's just a case of working out what modifying genes each parent carries. :)

Who is the sire? (I have a passion for Welshies...) :D :D

[TheHoglet]

wow that was really interesting :D
i wonder what my two boys would have looked like as foals

[The Flying Irishman]

Chev

My boy is a fleabitten grey 10 years old, his passport shows him as "grey piebald". When his coat is wet he actually is blue and white, why would this be and why when he is fleabitten grey would the vet have him down as grey piebald

Thanks
Kath x

[chev]

He was probably born black tobiano (piebald) and greyed out later. The grey gene causes the black to grey out and end up white, and hides the piebald pattern - you'll see patches of dark skin and patches of pink skin if you look closely though.

Some greys do develop fleabites - coloured horses who grey out will do this too.

The vet probably did his passport while he was still in the early stages of greying, when he would have had obvious patches of grey and white (sometimes called blue and white too).

The grey in Wally's signature did the same; he's a piebald who also had the grey gene. He was born black and white and now he's gone grey, the piebald pattern is almost completely hidden.

[The Flying Irishman]

He was passported at 6 months and is now 10, would that be about right re his colour changes

Thanks
Kath x

[chev]

Yes, definately. At six months he'd have shed his black baby coat out and grown in the first stage of grey, which would have been quite a dark iron grey. So at six months he'd have been a dark grey and white foal.

Each coat change would have seen him get gradually lighter and lighter grey, until eventually his coat is totally grey.

Then he'd have started to get the fleabitten markings, and ended up teh colour he is now. :)

[neen]

My share pony Fluke is dun, which is a colour I love. He's got a sprinkling of white hairs throughout his coat, and it's hard to be sure, but I think his face has got slowly greyer since I've known him.

This is him in April, then in July, and today, November. It could just be the light in each picture, but to me it looks like there might be a slow progression of greyness in his face?

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j305/ninblak/greying1.jpghttp://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j305/ninblak/greying2.jpghttp://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j305/ninblak/greying3.jpg

He's 4 years old -- chev, do you think he'll eventually grey out completely? And if so, how long might that take? We don't know anything about his parentage; he came from the New Forest sales as a foal.

Not sure if I'm just imagining it -- I was so pleased he was dun, I don't want him to go grey just yet!

[Wally]

There was a GORGEOUS blue dun filly at the sales this year. I am a sucker for a blue dun! However, the owner/vendor knew this and said, "this one ain't for you, she'll grey out like her mother did" I was gobsmacked as her mother was white grey, but started life as a blue dun! This little foal was a good strong blue dun too, until you looked closely and on the face was the tell tale trail of teddy bear hair! :D :D :D going grey!

[neen]

Oh, don't say that, Wally! Dun's such an easy-care colour, all the stains just blend in. Brush the lumpy bits off and he's ready to go! I don't much fancy spending hours polishing up a white pony... although maybe I could just leave the stains and tell everyone he's still dun? :p

[chev]

He looks like he's greying out there neen. He's unlikely to have been dun to start with; more likely buckskin, but I'm almost certain from those pics that he's greying. Sorry! (But he will go some lovely shades in the years before being white... :D )

[CurlyWurlyRach]

very interesting thread :)

[neen]

He looks like he's greying out there neen. He's unlikely to have been dun to start with; more likely buckskin, but I'm almost certain from those pics that he's greying. Sorry! (But he will go some lovely shades in the years before being white... :D )

Aw. :( Never mind, at least when he's white he'll be easier to find in the field after dark.;) This is the whole of him, yesterday, showing off his lovely silvery tail (probably his best feature):
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j305/ninblak/wholebody.jpg

How can you tell whether they're buckskin or true dun? His points are seal brown rather than black and his coat's a sort of muddy colour (not just when it's muddy, all the time!). And he's got a dorsal stripe, a cross on his shoulders and zebra stripes on his legs. There's a dun across the road which is clearly buckskin -- black points, bright gold coat -- and I always thought Fluke was a true dun because he looked so different.

Not that it makes much difference, I suppose, if white is where he's headed. Could say the same for myself though -- I've definitely got more grey hairs than I used to have, too!

Thanks chev!

[chev]

Definitely greying out!

It's difficult with bucksins that are greying out because they can develop markings as grey does it's job that truly do look like dun markings. Plus the action of cream can look very dun-like because grey adds both dark and light hair, resulting in a very flat dilution.

I don't see an obvious dun cross in that pic, nor true zebra stripes; the markings on his legs look more like what grey does. Do you have any pics of his dorsal stripe? That's probably the best indication. He doesn't have dun markings on his head either.

Remember sooty buckskins can look very different from the obvious golden shades too; that also confuses things.

The reason I think buckskin rather than dun is mainly because dun only really exists in Shetlands and Highlands in teh UK pony breeds; and he doesn't look like he's got much of either in him. Cream, on teh other hand, is found in Connies, Welsh, New Forest, among others; so it's statistically more likely he's got cream rather than dun too.

(Pics of the stripe would be great though! :D )

[neen]

I've looked through all my pictures and there are no good ones of the stripe, but you can just about see it in this one, taken in the summer.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j305/ninblak/stripe.jpg

He does look very golden here, but I think that's mostly the sun! Next time I go up I'll take some proper close-ups of the stripe. I'd better hurry up, before he goes grey and loses it altogether! ;)

Thanks for this, chev, it's really interesting.

[Maddison's girl]

Chev

What is Libby. On her passport it says she is a chestnut roan, but people keep saying she looks more like a strawberry roan?

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c392/maddison07/libby017.jpg

I will try and get a more up to date piccie as this one is a little out of date now. Her colour has changed slightly
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c392/maddison07/LIBERTY003.jpg

[CMR]

What are everyones opinions about Montys color? I've asked tons of people, and have gotten half saying he's greying out and half saying he just has some weird sabino.
I'm leaning towards grey as he's 7/8ths Percheron, and grey and black are really the only two colors they come in. Although wouldn't he have more grey by now, as he's 3 1/2?

He has white flecks throughout his coat, and his mane and tail are a bit silver.
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h152/cvreagzayn/Montague/tail.jpg
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h152/cvreagzayn/Montague/DSC_6170.jpg
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h152/cvreagzayn/Montague/DSC_6099.jpg
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h152/cvreagzayn/Montague/DSC_5448.jpg

[chev]

Ooh, neen - that looks very much like a proper dun stripe! Dun stripes are strips of the horse's *undiluted* colour... he still looks very golden for a dun, and that stripe still looks very dark. I wouldn't like to say either way on this one really... :copout:

Maddison's girl - chestnut roan and strawberry roan are the same thing (red + roan). Your girl is definitely strawberry/chestnut roan - but she also carries sabino (ragged sock/s, big ragged blaze, adn roaning) so that can add more white hair than you'd normally see on a chestnut roan. She is chestnut sabino roan.

CMR - I doubt he's greying out. By that age you'd usually see far more obvious signs of greying, especially on teh head. He jsut has roaning type white associated with sabino. The 1/8th that isn't Percheron is obviously the part that made him tobiano too - Percherons don't carry tobiano. He's gorgeous... :D

[neen]

I took some more pics of him today, chev, and I've posted them on a new thread. When I first got him, my sis said, "What colour is he, exactly?" and when I said "dun", she said "is that 'dun', as in, 'I dunno'?" -- the cheek!

[chev]

Just seen your other thread neen and replied! It's almost impossibel for me to say one way or the other with Fluke. He's either a very convincing buckskin, or he's dun - but because of the grey, it's incredibly difficult to say.

I love the stages greys go through (ok so ending up white is a pain in the butt, but still...) but he is gorgeous.

[HashRouge]

This explains a lot! I always wondered why the chesnuts in Lou's pedigree lost out to the greys! Her granddaddy was a lovely chesnut arab stallion, Padron, but her grandmother on that side was grey and they produced a grey foal. He was bred to Lou's dam, who was also chesnut and my girl turned out grey. The eldest of her foals is also grey. She has another one whom I'm yet to find any info about.......am I right in thinking that he/she will be grey as well?

[Pablo1]

Ive got a question.

I have an 8yr old flea bitten grey, the older he gets will he go white or get more freakles?????

;)

[HashRouge]

Well, I don't know for certain, but if he's anything like my mare he will get more freckles AND go whiter. Lou started off as a steely dapple grey with just a few freckles on her face and neck (she was 8 when I bought her). Now she's rising 16 and has lost almost all her dapples but has a lot more speckles all over her body. She looks yummy :)

[chev]

Ive got a question.

I have an 8yr old flea bitten grey, the older he gets will he go white or get more freakles?????

;)

Fleabites or freckles are usually the final stage of grey when they appear. Horse goes white and then starts to develop freckles of colour. Some greys start to develop them before they lose their dapples, but while they'll continue to lose dapples and go whiter, the freckles remain unchanged. Some only get a few, others get so many they look roany from a distance. But if a horse has them, they won't lose them. Not all greys do get them but those that do keep them.

[Ratface]

Hello,

I went to see some percheron foals (rising 2). Both mums and dad were both almost white and fleabitten.

One foal had a white mane and tail and the other had a black mane and tail. Will they both grey out like the parents? I preferred the one with the white tail and mane as it looked stunning against the dark grey but wondered if they would both end up the same anyway?

Both foals were patchy in their "greynesss" but the one with the white mane and tail had more of a pale grey face.

Any thoughts?:confused:

[chev]

Sorry, only just seen this question :o

The answer is a simple yes - both will grey out and end up white. They might grey out at different rates but they'll both go white eventually.

[Spuds]

wow that so interesting!:cool:
i have a mare of 7 yrs who was whitewith a few ark dapples from the mid neck down and dark rey legs and a white belly... 1 yr on shes now dappled grey everywhere excpet her fleabitten face and white belly :eek:
this post has made me think more now than in the last 3 weeks lol :confused:

[generoso]

Hi as this thread has recently been revived could I ask you to give an opinion on these pics please. So apart from bird catcher spots is my boy likely to go grey ( fingers crossed you say no ). I have no idea about his dam and sire unfortunately. Every winter he gets more spots and under his forelock it looks to be going very grey. He has solid white spots and just some random blotches of white hairs. I have asked on this forum a long time ago but I don't remember the answer and he has got so many more spots now.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g307/julaer/Image038.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g307/julaer/DSC00121.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g307/julaer/DSC00124.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g307/julaer/DSC00120.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g307/julaer/Image014-2.jpg

[chev]

He's definitely not going grey. :) The birdcatcher spots are unrelated to grey so you have no worries.

[Wally]

So, what is Fákur, the gastropod?

You can see his grey flecks in summer, in spring they are much , much more evident, then they fade, and in winter he goes brown with no grey hairs visible.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f177/sprimble/IMG_5229.jpg

[mental mare]

crikey chev did you swallow an encyclopedia?
very interesting though!

[balnecroft]

HI I am new to the site and been sat here all morning reading this thread adn not got anything done at all outside with the horses as yet, I would just like to say it is a great thread and would like to show you a couple of photo of my girls
they are both full sister out of the same mare by the same stallion i just hope that i can post them ok


This is my yearling Filly "JAZZ"

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt100/balnecroft-stud/JJ2.jpg

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt100/balnecroft-stud/JJ3.jpg

This is her Full sister Mazie she is 5

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt100/balnecroft-stud/KeeleyandMazie.jpg