Help - my horse has started to spook at everything

[Beausowner]

I've owned my horse for seven months - I am a relative novice, but he was recommended for me by my previous instructor. Although he's nearly 9 he's very green and so am I! However, although I knew I would have to take things slowly he's been quite a steady horse (he's a welsh section D), although has always made a meal of things (flies) etc. About 3 months ago he spooked quite badly, which resulted in me being unseated, but not a bad fall, got straight back on, but since then he has been dreadful (no problems like this previously). We moved yards 2 months ago and he is very nervous -spooking at everything - not just a small jump but 10 feet sideways (he was western trained so pretty nifty with the feet). Same if I'm leading him on the ground. I thought it was something to do with me but he's the same with the instructor there who can sit him out and is very confident on him. Can anyone give me some advice - I love him to bits and don't think I could sell him, but being a "mature" rider can't afford too many falls! His work is schooling as he is certainly not ready for hacking yet, but as he has decided in the new school that one side has a lot of monsters it is very difficult! Can someone give me some advice, please, on how to settle him down again?

[Ehley]

hey hey there
It sounds like that your horse may be doing this inpite of doing this my horse used to get spooked at everything and when I say everything I mean EVERYTHING i got the help of my trainer we took my horse out with her horse and my horse spooked at everthing well my trainer said that each time she spooks give her a little smack with the crop well that did the trick and now my horse knows that she shouldnt spook at everthing anymore and that its alright

[Harry Hobbes]

Just off-hand, it sounds like his confidence has been lost: his confidence in his human(s). A horse reacting with lots of spooking because of lack of confidence often stems from the horse sensing a lack of confidence in the human, and thereby becoming afraid, and is why it is so very important that the human (develop and) display personal confidence so that the horse can feel safe. In other words, if the human is afraid, the green horse will read this fear and also be afraid. (This goes to the heart of the problem of "green" humans handling/riding "green" horses.)

If he does not have confidence in his human, he'll be afraid of nothing in particular, and most everything in general; especially when the human takes him out of his home (i.e., stall, paddock, pasture, etc.) and tries to work him.

As you may imagine, it's just not good to let a green horse sense a lack of confidence in the human because that will tend to build fear in the horse.

The thing to do is to re-build confidence in the horse that the human will keep him safe; so that he looks to the human for his safety. One does this by working with the horse either mounted or with groundwork over time to show the horse that the human will keep it safe by confidently taking the horse through the various drills and exercises explicitly designed to build both horse/human confidence.

In addition, when scary things happen, the human must take pains to not show fear, and to the contrary, show disdain for fear regardless of how the human feels at the time.

Being fearful is okay and normal for humans; but showing fear to the horse only propogates fear in the horse; so the human needs to learn the skill of overtly laughing at the scary thing. Learn to laugh overtly and loudly everytime the horse jumps (no matter how much you hurt), and you will undermine his lack of confidence.

I once came off a spooked horse (happened in a nanosecond) and landed squarely on my back on a gravel road; then I was dragged about fifteen feet before the horse stopped. I got to my feet, hobbled over to the horse and petted and praised him because he did the right thing: he stopped; and then I proceeded to laugh out loud and joke with him at how childish he had been for jumping sideways. He calmed right down. He also learned that I would not punish/admonish him for his fear, and his confidence grew.

Whether or not you feel safe mounting your horse, you should implement a groundwork and riding program such as Parelli or Lyons (or others). These programs are great confidence builders, because they are geared toward the novice and are safety-oriented, and they cover both ground and mounted work. The training programs include methods and techniques to directly build confidence and manage spookiness as the horse gains confidence.

The thing NOT TO DO is to try and force an unconfident (spooking) horse to proceed directly at what is scaring it at the moment; or punish or admonish it for its fear and lack of confidence.

Best regards,
Harry

[Bay Mare]

my trainer said that each time she spooks give her a little smack with the crop well that did the trick and now my horse knows that she shouldnt spook at everthing anymore and that its alright

The thing NOT TO DO is to try and force an unconfident (spooking) horse to proceed directly at what is scaring it at the moment; or punish or admonish it for its fear and lack of confidence.

I can't add anything to Harry's advice but just wanted to reinforce that you SHOULDN'T punish a horse for spooking ie BEING FRIGHTENED! It may 'work' with some horses but I wouldn't want to suppress a horse with fear as that isn't going to work if something scarier than you smacking them comes along.

Horses don't spook to be naughty, they spook because something scares them. How would you feel if your instructor smacked you with a whip when you were nervous or scared?

[Ehley]

ie horses will spook to be naughtty cuz sometimes they know that they can get away with it..horses are smart little buggers..but it might not be the same case for everyhorse

[Holly B]

I basically agree with everything that's already been said. However, another thing to consider if the problem won't go away is getting his eyes tested. If a horse has problems with their eyesight it can often cause them to spook and shy a lot.

[Beausowner]

Thanks everyone. I think you are all right. He does overreact to things and needs telling off sometimes- not because he is frightened, but because of how over the top he is reacting when he is frightened. The first time he spooked at the other yard I later learnt that he had run the other way from the handler when he was being turned out and they made quite a fuss getting him back - he ended up being so scared they had to give him ponynuts apparently to calm him - wish they'd told me this before I rode him in the afternoon - but I did do then what you did Harry because he was good and stopped as soon as I called him - I made a fuss of him because it wasn't his fault then and got back on and trotted him past the scary bit, but that was the start of this behaviour. (I would say that he's never run the other way from me, in fact he's always stuck like glue, but I have worked very hard and patiently with him since I've had him). Think I should get his eyesight checked - he is worse one direction than the other but that could be because he sees different things. Should I work him away from the side in the school where he spooks the most for a while or should I get him to go there straight away? Someone recommended that I put a neck strap on him to keep me more secure in the seat - does this work? Any other tips for riding out the sideways jumps, spins and dropped shoulder? I'm keeping to mostly lunging and keeping him in walk at the moment when I'm on him (definitely would be unseated if he spooked when I was trotting him - though I have to say when he's spooked when I've been on him he has only jumped once to the side which I can just about cope with!). Also riding him every day makes no difference - it seems to depend what mood he's in - I can have two calm days then he's so jumpy on the third I wouldn't even get on him, but then I can have two days off and ride him on the third without any major problems (though as I said I'm keeping the sessions short!).

[kedwards]

You've got some great advice so far. It may very well be that the move had made him more insecure and that you haven't always been in a position to give him confidence (if you get nervous too).

That said, I would also consider whether he has had any changed to his diet since moving to the new yard.

As far as riding spooks and shies, the best thing you can do for your own balance is let your seat relax into him when he does. Then, send him on calmly with a supportive leg. Don't punish or make any drastic moves that will only serve to validate his fear.

Have you ever actually fallen from his shies, or does it just shake you up mentally?

[tazzle22]

I would echo Harry and Bay mare ( and others) in saying that a frightened horse should NOT be punished :mad: He needs to have someone to be his safety zone , especially in the very very dangerous position when he is "alone" away from the other members of his herd !


He might also be unsettled due to the move - I know Taz takes a couple of months to really settle down into a new place and she used to display this by being a little spooky.

I would suggest going back to groundwork for a whle - no riding - till you have worked on a few trust issues too. I dont know if you can do this but can you touch him ALL over without him showing any signs of discomfort, does he give his feet up to you on request, does he move over to a slight touch, will he follow you wherever you go? Until he does those things and more it might be better to work on getting his trust and cooperation on the ground first.

Then introduce slowly some "scary" thinks like plastic bags .. start with them scrunched up small and rub him with it on his shoulder, praising for standing still and keeping this up till he realises you will not hurt him. Then you can do this all over , then you can open up the bag , then keep going till you can flap the bag all around without him twitching an ear !!!!

You can do ohter things like walking over tarpaulins, through water, lead him out etc ....... build up the trust and improve your relationship ........ then when you do get on the riding will be a much more realxed time for both of you because you can trust each other.

It just takes time and patience ...... it was months before i rode Taz after I got her - she was scared of everything LOL ( she had been badly treated).

Now we can do things like this ........


http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/43/A1/upsaddle/14a/5937.jpg

[Beausowner]

Kededwards - I did fall off when he did the initial spook at the last yard - it was totally unexpected, as he had never spooked that badly before. I did have my guard down and I think he also tripped (we were fast trotting around a corner) as he jumped 10 feet sideways. I came off that side so although I know my balance couldn't have been that bad or I would have come off the other side it did shake my confidence in him and me, which I think is part of the problem. I got straight back on and trotted him round spooky corner though and he was fine. KNowing he is going to spook (it's a 99% certainty) doesn't help, but I know I must try to relax a bit. I've booked a lesson on him tomorrow, so we'll see what he does then. I tried this before, but in the corner where he spooks the worse, he even did it with my instructor standing alongside him - she had to jump (and I did have my leg on).
Tazzle22 - I am doing the ground work with him (being a bit too nervous to ride him much!). He does let me touch him all over, push him about, give his feet (but sometimes in the order he wants!) and certainly follows me around, even in spooky school, though I stick to the safeish bit) - he used to be bargy but I can leave a door open now and he won't try to go away from me (although with others he has run off), so I don't think the trust is an issue, though I do think my nervousness is as I'm beginning to think he can sense how I feel very strongly). It's quite difficult leading him in hand though, as when he spooks he'll either pull back or refuse to budge, then when he does tries to race back home and he's quite a heavy horse to hold back! Any tips on this - I used to lead with both reins in riding position held under his chin - then I was told at this place to lead using one rein only. I've seen some people lead with the reins over the head - is this a stronger control? Incidentally he's fine with a lead rope from the field to his stable and vice versa but I worked' very hard on that for months when I had him (he used to try to pull a lot).

[Beausowner]

Hi everyone. I just wanted to say a huge THANKYOU. As you know I had been lunging and doing groundwork and at the start of this week I thought this is silly - I either have to get on with it or sell him. Don't want to sell him so I started to be a bit over the top when I greeted him, got some Bachs Rescue Remedy, arranged a lesson with my instructor for Tuesday, on the Monday I was lunging when a big jump wing fell down in front of him and clattered on something else - he jumped in the air and backwards, I laughed out loud, held the lunge rein and picked up the jump and put it back - all the while he was looking at me as if I was extremely brave - led him up to it AND HE WAS ABSOLUTELY FINE - looked sideways warily but that was it!!! Tuesday he was a different horse (but I was also far more relaxed on his back), back to his old old self. He didn't spook and was constantly listening to me. I thought it could be because we had someone on the ground with us (though this had made no difference before), but when she went I thought I would lead him to his really spooky corner (very brave of me) AND AGAIN HE WAS FINE! He has been the same every day since, I haven't even had to lunge. Makes no difference if we have horses in with us or on our own. He is constantly listening to me and not looking for things to spook at. I can even lead him around the yard (which was impossible before as he would jump at everything which did make me nervous). I don't know if it is my attitude that has changed him or that overnight he has suddenly settled. Today he jumped in his stable when I scraped the floor with spde _ i laughed again told him not to be so daft, made a big fuss of him. He carried on eating and ignored it then. he was a bit on his toes so I thought I would just lunge him (didn't want to undo work over week), but when we got to school only did onc circle, he was so relaxed and attentive I just jumped on him and he was fine. SO AGAIN, THANKYOU EVERYONE.

[Harry Hobbes]

Makes no difference if we have horses in with us or on our own. He is constantly listening to me and not looking for things to spook at. I can even lead him around the yard (which was impossible before as he would jump at everything which did make me nervous). I don't know if it is my attitude that has changed him or that overnight he has suddenly settled. It's not your attitude; it's your new behavior: you are not showing fear, and are now displaying confidence.

Horses look for a (any) leader to keep them safe. This is why the most experienced horse is usually the leader in a herd: the other horses expect the most experienced to keep them out of trouble (amoung other things).

When your horse was displaying the symptoms of lack of leadership (fear, anxiety, spooking) he was merely acting like any "leaderless" horse. Then, when you decided to not show fear when he displayed his symptoms, and in fact behaved in a manner that indicated that you knew there was not reason to be fearful, he in effect, said "You're not afraid, so I'm following you!" Basically, he elected you leader, whether you were running for the office or not.

This is good.

This is also why it is never a good idea to get upset from fear/anxiety in front of any horse: it undermines their confidence in the leadership of the human.

Sounds like you've got a good thing going now. So just make a point of remaining confident when you and he do challenging things, and he'll continue to look to you for leadership. (And of course, you should make sure that when you do challenging things, you do so safely.)

Best regards,
Harry

[artemis]

Havn't read the other posts. But a suggestion: Cut out ALL hard feed until he is quiet & stops spooking, then gradually re-introduce it. Thats what I did with a fairly new horse, & it worked.

[cvb]

Beausowner

I went to a Mark Rashid clinic recently with the specific aim of getting his advise on spookiness.

We had a whole conversation (I was a paying rider so this was legit ;) ) on the nature of the spookiness.

Our ridden work (what little we did - thats a whole nother story) was on ME and not on the horse.

Saddle fit and/or pain (back, withers and so on) will affect this. But the other ENORMOUS factor is the rider.

Now I'd like to think of myself as quite a confident rider - tho madam's spooks shook me up quite a lot. But I've given presentations and stuff at work and got to the point that I'm quite comfortable with an audience. So was at the clinic feeling like I was actually quite calm, confident, relaxed. (Mark makes a point of saying his clinics are safe learning environments). Yes I was a little wary about what was going to happen. But nothing (so I thought) to really affect my riding....

Well Fi had a different story to tell - so that made me REALLY get to grips with myself, my breathing and so on.

So even tho intellectually I would have agreed with Harry's post anyway - I can tell you for sure that it is true in practice as well :D

[floppy]

Who was the Bachs rescue remedy for? your horse or you?

I posted the other day a thread like this, no replies, can see why, as a few other people are having the same problem, so either my thread is boring to read or no one wants to help me :eek:

It's incredible how quickly a horse can loose its confidence. my mare has not just lost her confidence in people and me, but in her self and her position as boss in the herd. I just hope i manage to get through this.

As to the punishing for being scared, this is very wrong!

stupid me listened to the YO because the YO didnt believe me my horse was scared and lacked confidence. So she went out with me and told me to be more assertive, so i was...and too cut a long story short...it made the situation even worse. Eventually YO went out for a walk with my horse and couldnt believe how insecure my horse had become.

Now i have learnt to trust my instinct on my horse and look at her face. She has very big eyes full of expression. You can see the worry and sadness in her eyes aswell as the ''fire'' when she is pulling your leg.

[cvb]

floppy - had "missed" your other thread - sometimes thats why there are no answers..... posted there now :D

[Canaan's Mom]

Hello All,

Very good advice here (admittedly, I should have read this thread before posting my question elsewhere) - but here is a response and a question...

I agree that you shouldn't "punish" the horse for spooking because you want it to know that you are the "safe" leader - so how does that jive with tarining methods that say "get control of his hindquarters"/make him move - often this is done with a tap of the lead rope on the rear - is that not "punishment" from the horse's perspective (e.g. make the worng thing uncomfortable)?

So many questions...

[Harry Hobbes]

I agree that you shouldn't "punish" the horse for spooking because you want it to know that you are the "safe" leader...
Not punishing a horse does not result in the horse knowing the human is anything, one way or the other. "Leadership" will not result directly from not punishing a horse; it is established from a more comprehensive and substantial set of behaviors on the part of the "leader".

We do not punish "spookiness" for a different, more fundamental reason; so let's establish the fundamentals:

The (formal, scientific) definition of punishment is the process of using a punisher to decrease a response rate [of a behavior] (emphasis added). (From: Psychology, Third Edition. By Stephen F. Davis and Joseph J. Palladino. Prentice Hall. 2000. Page 261.). This definition stems from B.F. Skinner's original work in animal behavior, and operant conditioning.

So we use punishment in two forms: positive punishment and negative punishment. The form applicable in this context is:

Positive Punishment. This is an event or action presented to the horse after an undesired behavior (such as kicking), that will result in cessation of the behavior. Punishment targets cessation of a behavior via direct action (i.e., applying the "punisher"). Examples of positive punishment are: scolding, slapping, kicking, or any other presentation of negative stimulus to the horse.

Notice that a response is a behavior; it is not a state of mind, such as "fearful". In essence, we cannot punish a state of mind - that is impossible, unless one can change the thoughts of another; we can only punish manifest behaviors.

"Spooking" is by definition a state of mind; so we do not (and cannot) punish it. To attempt to do so would result in punishing some attendant behavior which may indeed also reinforce the original spookiness (i.e., fear). This is why punishing a spooky horse tends to make the horse spookier.
...so how does that jive with tarining methods that say "get control of his hindquarters"/make him move - often this is done with a tap of the lead rope on the rear - is that not "punishment" from the horse's perspective (e.g. make the worng thing uncomfortable)?
No, unless the "tap" is applied to achieve the "...cessation of a behavior..." Making the horse move is not cessation; it is initiation of movement. We are making/causing the horse to do something; rather than having it cease doing something.

So the "tap" is an example of a "reinforcer" rather than a "punisher". Here's the other two definitions derived from the source cited above that deal with "reinforcing" a behavior in the horse.

1. Positive Reinforcement. This is any event or action presented to the horse after the desired behavior, that will increase the likelihood of the horse's behavior to be repeated. Food, treats, petting, and any other good thing that the horse wants can be used as rewards to positively reinforce the horse's behaviors. For example, you can train the horse to come to you if you reward him with treats.

2. Negative Reinforcement. This is any event or action, which when removed after the horse's desired behavior will increase the likelihood of the horse repeating the behavior. "Pressure and release" is used to negatively reinforce a behavior; the horse gets a release when he does the correct thing, such as turning right (or left, or stop, or go). Spurs, riding crops, bits, lounge whips all apply the negative reinforcing concept.

The "tap" is an example of a "negative reinforcer" applied to get the horse to move (i.e., disengage) its hindquarters. In other words, we do not want the horse to stop doing something; rather we want it to do something specific, such as move its feet.

This is the fundamental difference between punishment and reinforcement.

But also notice that "punishment" and "reinforcement" are strictly human concepts; the words mean absolutely nothing to the horse: The same action (e.g., a "tap") is applied to achieve different results (either to reinforce or to punish), so the action is all the same to the horse. It is the human that must determine whether he/she is punishing or reinforcing with EVERY given action.

Best regards,
Harry

[Beausowner]

Floppy - I haven't been able to find your thread - but the Bachs Rescue Remedy was for me. I don't know if it was that itself, or the thought that it would help, but I only needed it for about four days before I got on him. Whatever it certainly gave me the confidence to relax on his back so he knew his "old confident mum" was back and it worked. I realised then that I was rigid with fear when I was on him before, anticipating that he was going to spook and I was going to come off - and at my age you don't bounce as well - and I was the same on the ground - so no wonder he thought the world was a scary place! I knew it wasn't food as he was only fed hay when it started. I think what helped him and me was stepping back a bit - I did a lot of lunging with him in the school (nothing great, just a few circles and transitions so he got used to listening to me again and working in the school) and when he did spook on the lunge I could just sympathise and calm him down without the fear of coming off him if I was on his back and if it was a silly spook I would just laugh at him. It did take patience but it's been worth it. He now trusts me again and will come with me (riding him) to all parts of the school, he hasn't spooked once in the last few weeks (or not that I have noticed!), I don't have to lunge him before I get on him, he's lining up at the mounting block which is on the monster side of the school - I can see he's not relaxed and looking warily over the fence but he trusts me enough to stand still (and doesn't rush off when I'm on him), and best of all I can tell he's having fun again when we work (unless it's his teatime when he's very naughty and will try every trick in the book to go back to his stable for his tea!). We do have days when I know he's nervous and I just go with him - he'll still come to the spooky part with me but I can tell he's not comfortable so I'll work him in the "safe" part. Being assertive with him when he is scared doesn't work, although my instructor recommeded that and when she tried he tried to buck her off - he has never bucked before, and she also said if I did let him off working in the spooky part of the school he wouldn't ever work there, but he does - the next day he is absolutely fine and will trot and be totally relaxed. I can tell what Beau is thinking with his eyes - if something scares him he is now back to looking at me and if I tell him it's ok then it's good enough for him (most of the time!). I trust him again and he trusts me - be patient with your mare, I'm sure she'll be fine given time. Beau is still nervous at some things, but looking back he has always been like this - at the other yard when I used to lead him to his turnout he would show me every bit of machinery that had moved and I always had to say it was ok, but because I wasn't nervous he never took it any further and I never thought anything of it. Unfortunately when Beau lost his confidence I lost mine (or to be honest I think it was the other way around), so stay confident with your mare and take it slowly - don't push her too hard to do things you know will spook her, and from my first hand experience I am sure your mare will become more confident again. Beau is now also far more confident with the other horses in his group and has moved himself up the pecking order a bit. He moves over for me when I go in his stable, before if he heard something outside he would just run to the door, through me if necessary - he never does that now - he'll still go to look but he's always aware of where I am and never barges through or runs - however scared he is he'll always look to see where I am and really move over to avoid me - and believe me a couple of months ago you would never have believe all this was possible. I've realised that I'm rambling again, but I'm so pleased to get both my "old horse" and my "old confidence" back and I am sure you will as well with patience. Best of luck.

[Dizzy]

This to me is a very difficult problem to answer. All horses spook at some point in thier life, its inevitable.

We'll never stop them spooking, but we can minimise their reaction. We must 'ride' them, not allow them to day dream or plod along. Ride them forward in a good active stride, always have a purpose. Walk 10 strides, rise trot 10 strides, sit trot 10 strides. Flex to the right X strides, flex to to the left (what ever you can manage) leg yield a couple of strides each way.

In other words keep thier attention focussed on you, so when their attention strays you can rolluck them for not paying attention to you. Yes all our horses spook, and its very easy to become nervous of them spooking, but if you always ride with intention, it gives you a goal to concentrate on and a reason to rolluck the horse for not listening, when it spooks. So the punishment is not for spooking, but for not listening to you.

If you ride a spooky horse out with no goal, you'll wait and anticipate the spook and because you're nrevous make it worse. Its the difference between being a 'rider/teacher' or a 'passenger.

I'm obviously not describing every situation, I've been lucky enough to not to have come across a horse that hasn't responded so far. Its not a nice situation to be in. Good luck.

[floppy]

i hope it improves, today we are going to start with a bit of clicker training, im completely lost at what to do.

i was told to be dominant and what happened? my horse let out a whopping rear infront of me and buggered off :( something she has never done before. The only mean thing she could do before was to just run backwards

my thread is called ''Totally frightenend'' , if you do a search for floppy you will find it.

[carrimclaren]

Just like to say completely sympathise with you as it's horrible when you've been unseated after a spook because it takes you so much by surprise that you then spend whatever time on board thinking it's going to happen again. Unfortunately like people have said your reaction to things is the most important.

I find the best thing to do is make a complete fool out of yourself in aid of helping your horse :D If she spooks i try to laugh loud and say oh you berk is it scary horse eating monster hedge/road sign/dog/leaf etc. I must sound a complete loony to people walking past but hey who cares as long as i sound relaxed it relaxs my horse. There are times when i come unseated but then there's times when i manage to sit the spook. Last time in the school when someone behind the orchard trees was walking their dog i go off, lead her to the side where the dog was and talked to her for about 5 minutes about what a wimpy muppet she was. Got back on and schooled with no snorting/spooking for the rest of the session. I have no qualms about making a prat out of myself if it means her going forward and me having a better chance of staying in the saddle :D

[cvb]

LOL - was in a "strange" indoor school today for a Parelli session with a fellow parelli person. (Edit - to clarify, this was a play session not a lesson !)

We had 2 spook moments

1) went to investigate a scary corner and she went to touch a bucket (full of soft toys) with her nose. I think she went to pick it up with her mouth and it rattled and she scared herself. I felt myself about to do a limpet impression and tried to stop it. And the spook stayed minor :)

2) was doing some sinlge rein work, and was at a corner and the tail end of the rope brushed her side, and she got scared and dropped her bum ready to spook. But again it didn't get out of hand :D

I really think the "passenger" work is starting to help. But I also think someone's "swung ropes" at her in the past. (It may LOOK like NH, but it isn't ! :eek: ) and hence she figures she needs to jump when a rope get close.

I am already aware I need to not skip the friendly work. She doesn't get "rub to a stop" with the Carrot Stick if we haven't done Friendly with it before. But I also do Friendly with rope from the floor. And clearly - from her point of view - this is NOT the same as from on top. So I think Fi and I have a new variation on Friendly Game to play :rolleyes:

But I was really pleased that neither of these spooks escalated - especially as we were in a completely new enviroment. :D

just thought I would share - so my fellow NRers with spooky horses would know that it is possible to work on this, at least to reduce it ;)