Much trouble ahead of me if this doesnt get resolved

[Tootsie4U]

"Velcro Horses" Its a term adapted from "velcro dogs" which behaviorists use to describe dogs suffering from separation anxiety disorder. The dogs latch onto one person, follow them everywhere, often have disregard for other members of the family, and can become clinically obsessed with that person. I haven't searched around to find out if this has in fact been researched in horses.

My horse and I have a very good relationship for the most part, yet he can be atroscious with other people.

You might remember that he wouldnt let my trainer or my friend ride him awhile back. He repeated his performance this weekend. I have also been working with a Professional NH-woman for the past few weeks and whenever she demonstrates with him, he acts up for her. The second she hands him back to me, he performs whatever task it is with perfectionism.

This is causing me ALOT of stress because his future depends on other people working with him. Heaven forbid if I should ever have to sell him. I dont think he'd even allow them to try him.

Im not sure whats going on. Im not sure what I can do about it considering the people trying now are real live professionals who've been in this business for years. I almost feel that I have to "cut the cord" for his own benefit but I also know thats the worst thing I could ever do to him.

Sorry to sound so whiny. But, this is a real problem for us. Rant over...

[KarinUS]

Don't look at it as a problem. It's an opportunity.

IMO it is way overdue that Bon gets a chance to make positive connections with other people. This is a time where he can do this gradually.

I know you are usually trying to be very, very efficient but there really is no reaason to rush things so much.

Instead of trying to get people to ride him immediately, let him get to know them. Have them work with him on the ground. If you really trust your volunteers, don't be there. Let him establish new relationships with people.

Since you bring up velcro dogs... one of our dogs stayed with my ex. Even after not having seen the dog for 9 months he immediately reestablished himself as being *my* dog when I saw him.
As long as I am around my ex doesn't stand a chance. But when I am not there they do fine.

[Tootsie4U]

Let him establish new relationships with people.

But what about the barn staff who handle him several times a day, everyday? My trainer rode him a few times before, my friend dozens of times before. She was even his primary care giver for about a year. He does develop other relationships with people. We've been to four barns in a year and every single one of them have had complaints about him. The complaints have a common tone - he doesnt respect them and he could care less.

I had dinner with said friend last night. She said Bonfire is just a one person horse and in his mind, he'll never see that he *has* to do it anyway but his way. Quoting her as best as my memory allows; "If he doesnt see a point in doing it for me, he wont".

It is definately over due. I've been waiting for two years now. I understand the advice you've given and its practicle. He just doesnt fit into a normal trend - maybe it was his upbringing (NH-woman seems to think so).

[lisae]

I'll bet he's sensing your anxiety about him having to learn to be with others, but since he can't pinpoint what you're worried about, he's probably clinging all the more! Since there is no rush - worst case is he hangs around for awhile being a pasture potato at full board come fall, right? - so try not to worry about his future and enjoy his 'right now'. You have worked so closely with him the last few years, it certainly shows how he has bonded. So 'cutting the cord' may not be required so much as incremental change.

[KarinUS]

Lisae,

great way to put it!

You know velcro works because there's two sides/ surfaces to it. You need to be able to let go as well. There's no rush at all though.

The one thing to keep in mind though is the thing that Es says about her ponies. She wants them to be prepared to go on to other places if need be because you never know what will happen in the future.
Bon would greatly benefit from becoming a more well rounded horse.

I also think there's a difference between a caretaker and someone who truly cares. DJ had someone to bring him feed etc. but he didn't really blossom until he was at home with people who really cared. Sensitive horses can feel people's attitudes and respond to them.

That's why I think you should seriously consider having Es move in with you... :D

You have time. You can try new approaches. I know you guys are really working on the respect thing. Maybe try something different. Maybe instead of making him do things because he respects the person, make him do things because it's fun and rewarding for him.

Okay I hope this is not taken the wrong way but I could have really beaten the *&% out of Missy and she still would have been defiant. At some point more pressure gets you nowhere with her. She's a smart girl. We really started making headway with her when we made being good worthwhile to her. Clicker training. It carries over. She likes being a good girl now and she listens better even when there's no treat involved, etc. Less evil faces.
It may not work in every case. It was just an idea for a different approach.

Remember if you are doing something for a while and it still doesn't work, it might be time to try something else. :) best of luck!

[Tootsie4U]

Forgive me, but all of that has just gone over my head! :p

Bringing him home will significant reduce socialization with other people. Im not trying to get him to blossom for me, Im trying to get him to blossom for other people who he deals with on a daily basis.

Having my friend ride him in a weekly lesson and us working with the NH-woman are outward efforts to make him a more well rounded horse. Socialization. Not for me, for other people. For the same reason as Es's.

You hit the nail on the head though! Who is going to care more about my horse than me? Who is willing to spend that level of quality time with another persons horse? Maybe if I pay them... :D

Thanks guys, I appreciate the help.

[KarinUS]

They don't have to care as much as you do. But more than paid help that's for sure.
That's why I thought a friend like Es would be perfect. Someone who truly has Bon best in mind (rather than someone who gets paid for it)
Will your friend be able to work with the NH woman on her own (without you)?

[Tootsie4U]

Unfortunately, she's the type to limit groundwork to the very very begining stages of starting horses. She sees no need for it after they've been w/t/c. But, here's an idea. *Maybe* someone from my NH class would like to trade horses on occassion. As a way to expand our own abilities... inadvertently Bonfire might get something out of it as well. Hey! Thats a good idea! Thanks K!

[KarinUS]

Unfortunately, she's the type to limit groundwork to the very very begining stages of starting horses. She sees no need for it after they've been w/t/c. But, here's an idea. *Maybe* someone from my NH class would like to trade horses on occassion. As a way to expand our own abilities... inadvertently Bonfire might get something out of it as well. Hey! Thats a good idea! Thanks K!


I think that's a fabulous idea!!! :) Excellent. That remark about your friend made me wonder how good of a candidate she is. It doesn't sound as if she would be very willing to invest a lot of time into truly getting to know Bon. Riding is not everything.

But glad to hear you have opportunities within your NH group!

[Mehitabel]

i wish we were on the same side of the ocean... :)

how is he with the barn staff? does he get any better over time? i shall have a think. it seems to be a recebnt thing, since he was fine with me, there was that person who was jumping him, people have done things withhim before. are you in contact with anyone who's ridden him successfully in the past?

what's changed, apart from the obvious? have you tried having someone work him with you nowhere about?

[Tootsie4U]

With the barn staff, he's bargy - doesnt even care they're there. He does what he wants and only what he wants. Even if they've got him shanked for more control, he'll tuck his head to his chest and barge. They call him an ass.

Time - well, this is how he's always been. Even since the first day I met him as a 2 year old stud. I know for certain that if you had pushed the envelope with him, he would have shown you that side of him as well.

Same friend is the girl who was jumping him. We both seem to agree that in every successful episode of her riding him in the past (including the times instructor rode him) was after I had already been on top and warmed him up. No one has ever worked with him solo without me at least being there at some point of the process (fetching, tacking/grooming, etc.) because I know how he can be with strangers.

The thing is, he is not aggressive. He will try to intimidate you if you push him far enough but he has never tried to purposely bite/kick/buck/strike out of aggression. He is stubborn, obstinate, and thinks he is above everyone.

So, whatcha think?

[Mehitabel]

honestly? i think i'd probably put him on loan for a year or two, and let someone else bond with him properly. that way he will realise that you're not the sun and the moon, he will have to lump being handled and ridden by someoen else and i think it will do him the world of good in the long run. going from being a one to two-person horse is the hardest, i think once he realises that people as a class are worthy of his respect, not just you, then at least half the battle will be won.
yes, he'll be pretty confused to begin with, but in the long term i think you might be right with the cutting the cord.

at the minute, i get the impression that a lot of what he does is on his terms - he allows people to ride him, as you say, tries to intimidate them and so on. i think that that is what needs sorting out, and once that is done, a lot of the problems will go away as i suspect that might be the root of a lot of it.

i didn't realise it was that serious with others, otherwise i'd have maybe suggested seeing what happened with me on board pushing a bit more.

[kedwards]

Not long ago, you were at a point where he was being so difficult for you. Now he won't work for anyone but you.

Perhaps it will be the same with the others. That is, they too will need to work through a few bad patches just as you have.

Who is unwilling to face that challenge? You? The trainer? Your friend?

Has the trainer and your friend thrown up their hands and refused to work with him?

[cvb]

With the barn staff, he's bargy - doesnt even care they're there. He does what he wants and only what he wants. Even if they've got him shanked for more control, he'll tuck his head to his chest and barge. They call him an ass.

Pot calling kettle black me thinks ;)

I think one of Karin's previous comments is apt here - just because they take care of him, does not mean that they care for him. Its their job, afterall - which will lead to a very different interaction.

Bon has worked out how to communicate with you. He needs to work out how to communicate with other people - but they need to meet him half-way !

Not being a mum (but am an aunty) - I guess its a bit like when you first take a child to a play group - sometimes some worrying behavior comes out as they learn to interact, even tho they are fine with their immediate family ?

The important thing is for you to be calm and consistent - or he'll get more confused.

There is also just the sheer "click" factor. I've had a few different people ride Fi since I got her. The first person she got real tense with and started zipping about, same thing with another friend in Sweden, when my OH sits on her she treats him like she's walking on eggs ;), the third person she happily went hacking with, my big sis she wouldn't go anywhere with, and my friend-instructor had her doing walk-canter and all sorts ! :D

Maybe you and he just haven't found the right person yet (or the right person is in the wrong country ?)

[galadriel]

Sounds like he treats you as a pair bond.

You can get horses past pair bonds. It just takes work in convincing the horse that you're just as good company. How many people are going to want to do that for Bon? He's your horse--I certainly wouldn't put in the effort for someone else's horse on a whim or as a favor.

I'd do it if I was paid to, though. Ithink you just need to go at this issue with full realization of the scope and implications, and full realization of what it'll take to get him past it.

[Tootsie4U]

You're all right. Unfortunately, like Galadriel said, its going to take alot of commitment from someone to help him through this. It took me about two years to get it from him (albeit, my inexperience may have prolonged that) the person would really have to be a saint to go through the same thing - and my bank account probably couldnt afford paying someone a two year salary :D

Maybe he'll naturally grow out of it - he's only 5... :rolleyes: (wishful thinking)

[KarinUS]

How many people are going to want to do that for Bon?
Maybe the loan idea is a good way to achieve this on a budget then?
Personally, if you lived close by I'd love to see if I can help (no payment necessary). Others might feel the same. It sounds like an interesting challenge. Some people live pretty comfortably financially (or don't care) but would like something to work on.
Someone like the lady I bought DJ from would be perfect. She likes TBs (and who wouldn't :D ), buys them off the track, gently trains them, and only sells them on when the right owner is found. She kept the last one for nearly 4 years. No rush jobs. Whatever time it takes!

[KarinUS]

How many people are going to want to do that for Bon?
Maybe the loan idea is a good way to achieve this on a budget then?
Personally, if you lived close by I'd love to see if I can help (no payment necessary). Others might feel the same. It sounds like an interesting challenge. Some people live pretty comfortably financially (or don't care) but would like something to work on.
Someone like the lady I bought DJ from would be perfect. She likes TBs (and who wouldn't :D ), buys them off the track, gently trains them, and only sells them on when the right owner is found. She had DJ for just a little over a year but has kept the last one for nearly 4 years. No rush jobs. Whatever time it takes! She doesn't have to work to make a living and working with horses is her hobby.

But anyway. If you could find a good loan home for him it might be more feasible. Be sure to know where he is going though. Check out the place. Call their references, etc.

I know you are very distraught at this time but honestly this could be a great opportunity for the both of you!

[cvb]

in 2 minds whether to post this or not, as not sure its a "help"..

When Fi was in Sweden in her last year, it worked as a "co-operative" i.e. we had a rota and everyone covered the ins and outs between them. And all the horses were out in pairs. Each in or out was done by 2 people. Of course every pair of people would do it in a slightly different order, and had different ideas and/or level of experience in handling horses.

Well by the time Fi went home to Sweden, I think my mum thought I was bringing a tiger home not an Appy ! :eek: I ended up going down most nights myself even if it wasn't my "slot" just because I wanted her handled right. (In was worse than out because of feeding time).

She would bounce up and down, do little rears, piaffe etc :rolleyes:

But here she just toddles up and down. Gets a little worried sometimes about the monster in the cattle barn (they feed the cattle fodder beet from a tractor and in the dark evenings it had its lights on - they shone through the slats). But then just waits for the boys to go first and she's fine. My mum leads her, my dad, my sister's brother-in-law, my sister's father-in-law - all fine. Some of those are "non-horsey" types and she's STILL fine.

Thing is that even with the non-horsey bods, they are used to sheep and cattle and she knows where she stands with them.

I know you've already moved yard to find somewhere better - and if I think back I struggle to think of a livery yard I have been in where there hasn't been some kind of issue.

But it isn't entirely you and Bon - there are other people responsible as well....

Are your NH lessons at the yard ? If so, they might get the idea slowly by watching.

[chev]

Can only echo what's been said already really, so I won't repeat them.

It's a little like kids who will behave and co-operate for mum but then throw a screamy fit when mum tries to leave them at school. (And yes, this is current and rather painful experience!). I can get my son to take his coat off, put his fruit in his drawer, sit down.... can the teacher? Can she heck. I leave, son bawls.... and ten minutes after I've gone has settled in cheerfully and is doing everything the teacher asks.... Sometimes, like Es suggested, the best solution is to leave, and let them sort it out themselves.

I've had very similar experiences with horses. My stallion was one - very much like Bon in the way he reacted to being handled by strangers. Loaning him out actually did us both a power of good - he improved no end and I learnt to relax and trust his other handlers - which is the hardest part.

You both need to learn to cope with Bon having new handlers. You need to be happy with his new person, and he needs to come to terms with relying on someone else. It's not easy, and it'll probably be upsetting in some ways (especially if you're feeling a bit emotional now anyway) but he will settle down. He needs to work his way through the stropping without you stepping in and reinforcing the idea he doesn't have to work for anyone else - just like my son has to work his way through it without me. It's all part of his education.

Good luck :) .

[shandy84]

Tootsie you've been having a real lot of bother recently haven't you :(

i can only go on what I know and that is my two youngsters, I know you have read my posts about Bramble being really bargy and basically a real witch.

Well she ended up bonding very well with me but with no-one else, this makes life really easy for me but anyone else near her has a nightmare. When I'm stood near the stable if another horse walks past she looks angelically at me, if I'm not there (I have hidden and seen this happen) she tries to take chunks out of the people and the horse.

It has only gotten better recently because I have backed off a bit with her and let the pampering and play come from other people (who don't mind helping out) I also try not to be in the close vicinity when there is the potential for her to be naughty, basically I am giving others the chance to show Bramble that they are there to be listened to 100% of the time not just when I'm there, I am told she is really improving, some of their methods I have not been the happiest about (someone tried bribery) but they got shown it was a bad idea (when they got bitten) so in a way you may need to have faith in others and just let them get to know Bon when you're not there as it's the only way some horses will react naturally.

I actually think the idea of a loan is a very good one, I know I personally at the moment wouldn't like the idea but if someone had an interest in getting to know bon then he would have to break his pair bond wth you a little to include someone else in.

Good Luck

[galadriel]

Personally, if you lived close by I'd love to see if I can help (no payment necessary).

Just wanted to add--in your case Toots, I feel the same way. My comment earlier about not doing it as a whim or a favor was in general ;) --specifics may differ.

[KarinUS]

Just wanted to add--in your case Toots, I feel the same way. My comment earlier about not doing it as a whim or a favor was in general --specifics may differ.


:eek: I know of a horse that traveled from Florida to New York not to long ago. I am sure they also do the route in reverse.
Fantasy could have a little Morgan friend and the TBs could be as cliquey as they want to be... :D

[galadriel]

Toots, does Bon want to meet Fantasy? :)

[Tootsie4U]

I am certain he'd have no objections! :p He's one big flirt and the girls here do love him. He's not allowed out on dates with girls though. He's too rough with them, if ya know what I mean... :eek:

I will consider the loan option. I do have reservations though - he is very green and that coupled with his personality makes him a bit of a liability. That and I've put SOOO much work into getting him even as far as he is now, I dont doubt that it could be undone in a fraction of the time... Prospective loanees will think they're going through a job interview for working at Fort Knox or something :D:D:D :rolleyes:

[galadriel]

Good luck with him. I really do hope you find someone he'll let work with him ;)

[Mehitabel]

I will consider the loan option. I do have reservations though - he is very green and that coupled with his personality makes him a bit of a liability. That and I've put SOOO much work into getting him even as far as he is now, I dont doubt that it could be undone in a fraction of the time... Prospective loanees will think they're going through a job interview for working at Fort Knox or something :D:D:D :rolleyes:

a lot of people like that kind of thing. you took him on, why would someone else not? other people could love him too. good luck with it all.