Conflict with disciplines & Harashee

[dophi_arno]

I have a very small problem, and where else to turn to but NR!

I've had Harashee over a year now and the entire time I've had him we've done Natural Horsemanship. The main reason for this was because I was doing year 12, and I didnt exactly have all the time in the world to spend with him. It was great to be able to go to him after school, play a few of the games, or ride bareback and then go home to do homework. NH was great because I didnt have to go for a 1 hour schooling session to feel I had acomplished something with him.

Now we've moved to a yard where there are predominently eventers (some national) and although no one has commented, looking at the horses they all engage and carry themselves much better than Harashee. I've talked to a few instructors, and most have said that even though NH is good, putting Harashee back in a bridle (with a bit) with the right training, would really help him balance himself and help him become a better riding horse overall. In the end run I'd really like to do both, and I know of many people who do so successfully.

I know "normal" riders arent too fussed, but a lot of "naturals" wouldnt agree with me putting him back into a bridle. I have a NH instructor who I see quite infrequently at clinics, but I also have NH friends who I see more often. I'm not sure if I feel confortable putting him back in a bridle if I'm going to be "looked down" (if those are the right words) upon by them.

So basically I'm here to ask you a few questions on English riding, because I really dont know if its the path I want to take. At the risk of sounding incredibly dumb, what is the importance of Harashee going into a nice outline and balancing himself well? He doesnt go into a nice outline at the moment yet I still feel happy riding him at walk/trot/canter and although he cant canter a 20 m circle, he still feels ok to me. And also, would I have to start lunging him and using "gadgets", for example, the pessoa or draw reins/side reins, ect to get him to go nicely?

If I do chose to put him back into a bridle, I really dont know where to start. I have no idea about different bits, bridles and what I should be aiming for. So in that case I guess I should be using an instructor. For those who dont know, Harashee is 7 years old, and used to be ridden in a bridle as an endurance horse. He was broken in privately by the previous owners.

I'd like to do what is best for Harashee. Any comments or advise would be greatly, greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

[galadriel]

First comment...the O'Connors are big-name eventers in the US, but it's my understanding that they start all their horses with NH. And if you look, most of the horses they're competing are in a "real" bridle. Just because you respect NH doesn't mean that you can't use a bit.

Okay, moving along--

The purpose of getting a horse to work properly is to allow him to move most effectively and with balance and comfort. Once a horse develops the muscles used in carrying himself, he will actually find it easier to be ridden. When a horse is balanced, he can handle circles, lateral work, etc with little difficulty.

He will also set his legs down at the proper angle and with the proper amount of impact concussion. A horse who is not balanced will have his hind end strung out behind him, and will not lift his feet and put them down in the way which is most comfortable. Not being balanced can, in the long run, cause joint damage in the hind end (depending on the horse and how much work you do, of course).

And moving further along--

If you do it right, you should be able to get nice balanced work without a bit. However, the bit is able to convey much more subtle cues. You should be able to easily do some work without a bit.

However, I recently watched a clinic being taught by Walter Zettl. One of the riders was a dressage trainer who has been studying with the Parellis. The horse she was riding, in fact, belonged to the Parellis (and they showed up to watch her go). She was using a Myler bit, if I recall what she said correctly. Clearly, you can be a devoted student of NH and use a bit ;)

[dophi_arno]

Thanks heaps for that information Galadriel! That explains a lot about why people are always training their horses to get into a good frame. I feel incredibley stupid for not knowing that :o . Reading your reply makes me feel that I would deffinately like to work harashee towards balancing himself, ect.

I'm aware that horses should be able to do this without a bit. I've seen photos of people riding in a halter/lead with their horses in a balanced frame and its very impressive! I have photos of when harashee was ridden by his previous owner with a bit and photos from now, and you can see how much his head has come down and how his back is less hollowed. That said, as you can see by the picture attatched in the first post, he is still not engaging and theres room for a lot of improvement. I just dont think I can correct this on my own. We've passed our level 1 horses and horsemen (the NH instructors we are with) but this is addressed further down the track, and being the perfectionist that I am (I need to get everything perfect before I move onto the next task) I can see this taking a while to get to.

Also, I was always under the impression that those NH'rs that used a bit got there by following NH, not by using an outside instructor. I think that's what I'm most worried about. It's not the using the bit part, but that I'm "shortcutting" the system and going elsewhere to learn this part. I could continue to only do NH and get there later on, but due to the cost, I do clinics very infrequently (last one was a year ago exactly) and often I feel I am not challenging Harashee enough (but cant progress to the next level until I can afford another course).

But I'm glad to hear that I can do both, and I'm not the only person to do that. Thanks again for all your help, you've deffinately given me lots to think about.

[Harry Hobbes]

If you study Lyons' or Parelli's advanced training, you will see the classical discipline movements being trained and practiced (often without a bit in the horse's mouth). Ever seen an Arab do a perfect Half-pass without a bridle-bit? Or a Piaffe bareback with no reins, bit, halter, saddle or anything on the horse except a rider? Both operating only off of seat and leg cues? You can see these and more on Parelli's Level program videos.

Natural horsemanship enables this kind of performance.

The "natural horsemen" of the Dorrance School (Parelli, Brannaman, Lyons, et al) all view "natural horsemanship" as preparatory training (e.i., the foundation) of the horse as an enabler of the various disciplines (such as Dressage, Jumping, Reining, Cutting, etc.) In other words, they teach one how to prepare the horse for performance disciplines in the bridle.

The things that they target for preparation in the horse are the very same things that the "classical" horsemen wanted as the basis for classical training and performance.

In reality, the problem that you will encounter today is not that natural horsemanship is not aligned and does not support bridled riding disciplines (it does this well), but rather that some modern proponents of those disciplines tend to short-cut the (time-consuming) preparation of the horse and rely upon gadgets and gimmicks with under-prepared horses. For example, they want to directly "get an outline" with bits/contact on the front end, rather than indirectly allow the horse to develop an outline through training from the back end forwards.

So if you wish to use natural horsemanship to prepare your horse for any discipline (including bridled disciplines), you can do so; but you'll have to study the advanced methods and techniques to learn "how to" without the gadgets and gimmicks; and you may find that the largest impediment is the "normal" horsemanship ideas of using gadgets and gimmicks to force results.

Best regards,
Harry

[dophi_arno]

Thanks for that Harry Hobbes, once again theres some more things to think about. I deffinately dont want to resort to gadgets, ect to acheive this. I'm very much into doing all the hard work to get the end result, which is why I feel a bit funny using an instructor who's not natural. That said, there are people left, right and centre telling me that to get the right result I should be putting harashee into a bridle as soon as possible with an instructor who specifies in english riding.

I think the decision is in whether or not I want to get an english instructor now and do NH at the same time, or just keep with NH until I get there later on. I dont want to be inflexible or a "pure-ist" in any disipline, harashee is a pleasure horse and we're out there to have fun, not become world class eventers. Thanks for your help, its much appreciated.

[Esther.D]

Parelli do of course introduce a snaffle in Level 2 as well :) Although theirs is more of a western style of riding, the bit does appear in there.

Rupert and I have short cut the system to incorporate longreining with a bit for his driven training and to be honest I have not found any problems with this - his parelli has just made him more responsive and calmer which has helped his work with a bit. On the other side I have not found any problems with doing the 7 games since reintroducing the more traditional english approach side by side with the Parelli, I think the two can work together very nicely :)

[cvb]

I'm very much into doing all the hard work to get the end result, which is why I feel a bit funny using an instructor who's not natural.

do you mean "natural" or "Natural" ??

Mark Rashid doesn't call himself "Natural" - he says if your work is good, it speaks for itself. It doesn't matter what its called.

I think the natural/traditional polarisation is a little false. There are good trainers out there who will be consistent with your NH approaches, and ones that aren't.

For me, the big question is whether your "local" trainer will be consistent with your work so far - rather than whether they are "natural" or not ! ;)

[Tangle]

I'd agree with CVB. Not all English/Dressage trainers will tell you that to get your horse working correctly you MUST use side reins, draw reins, huge spurs and a pelham, although some may go that line. Personally, if my instructor told me to put draw reins on Fifi I'd be straight off to find someone else - but I already know her opinions on that and it ain't going to happen :D. As I think someone else said, if you take real classical dressage there's a huge similarity with natural horsemanship, and good western training.

Talk to the instructors on your yard or that you could use and see what they think and what their opinions are. If there's one that you like then try some lessons. At the end of the day, you don't HAVE to do everything they tell you and you don't HAVE to keep having lessons with them if it's not working for you and Harashee :).

[dophi_arno]

Hahaha, nice point cvb!

Thankyou for the help guys. Esther, thanks for the insight. I'm glad to hear you are having success with both, thats good news.

I think for the moment I'll take Tangle's advice and talk to some more people and try out a few instructors who seem suitable. In the mean time I'll keep up with what I am doing currently, and if I conflict comes up between the two I'll sort it out then (not that it should). My ridden work and position really needs help as well, so even if all I get out of an instructor is an improvement in my position, I'll be happy.

Its a very interesting subject, and I think its by far the hardest decision I've had to think about with harashee. There are so many people with different positions on the subject, telling me a variety of different things, sometimes its difficult to get an unbiased opinion. So once again thankyou for your replies. They've come across honest and unbiased, and it makes life so much easier when decisions can be made unclouded.

Wow, I'm in a thankful mood tonight :)

[cvb]

dophi_arno

The other thing to say is that the work you have been doing should be a really good foundation rather than a hindrance.

To get better balance etc, he first needs to be relaxed and working with softness and acceptance. Bet thats what you've been working on with your NH stuff ;)

I'm pretty much a local level "been there, seen it, read the book, got the t-shirt" kind of rider. Riding for over 30 years, done ODE at area level in PC, got my BHSAI, blah blah blah. But at the recent Mark Rashid clinic I rode at we were working on walk and halt.... and was I worried ? No (well yes about my horse's sore back, but not about the riding !) - because the things I was working on - softness, feel, timing, breathing - are things I need at any level. And it makes more sense to work on them at a sensible pace like walk and halt, than by galloping around :rolleyes:

I KNOW that if I can get this at the trot-walk-halt level, I can get it in leg yield, sidepass etc etc. But first we're gonna get it in trot-walk-halt :D

[Tootsie4U]

Someone correct me if Im wrong but from what I understood in reading Parelli's book is that he advocates begining with the rope halter, progressing to only the neck strap, then further progressing to no halter or strap and THEN to the bit. Reason being, the bit is for refining. He leaves the bit for later so that the riders does not become dependant upon controlling the head (as many of us do, including yours truly!). Instead, they learn how to ride from the back end forward rather than vice versa.

On a personal account, the more NH I do with Bonfire, the better he becomes in the saddle. I supplement my riding lessons on off days with groundwork based on NH. (Well, before I got pregnant) It serves to focus us both onto cues that dont involve force or constraint. NH/groundwork solidifies the foundation so you can advance and refine as you progress. Its definately do-able to mix both. My only recommendation is to find an instructor who respects your wishes to do NH and incorporates the principles you use with NH into your riding lessons.

[katefarmer]

Some people see NH as a means to an end, some see it as an end in itself. It's not that one is right and the other is wrong, it's just personal preference.

I not only "do" NH - I teach it, give clinics in it, go and help problem horses with it etc - not one could be more committed to the philosophy than I am - but at the same time I compete in dressage and jumping with my own horses.

To be rather blunt about it, Parelli etc. advocate a particular application, sequence of exercises, special equipment etc. because it's their brand and they make it into a discipline in itself. You hear plenty of people who if you ask what they do with their horses they say they "do Parelli" - and if that's how they want to use it, that's fine.

I see the whole thing more as a means to an end which can be adapted for each individual case. What do you want to achieve with your horse? Whatever it is, there will be a part where NH can help, and that applies to any discipline - it is an approach, not a set of rules.

If your NH friends look down on you using a bit they're rather missed the point of the NH. Looking at what one might call "extreme Parelli" in his videos -it's not far from circus - which is another, long established, discipline in itself.

Perhaps that's what they aspire to - that's OK - but if you want to apply your NH in dressage, it is no less NH - it's just used in a different context.

You can use a hammer to break up a lump of ice, shape a horseshoe or bang a nail in the wall. It's still a hammer - just different uses.

Cheers

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

[Yann]

Lots of good points here, especially about 'NH' and bits. Unless I'm mistaken it's only really Parelli that focusses on bitless riding, and then not exclusively from the sound of it.

Teaching your horse to go in an outline, or on the bit or whatever does make a big difference to how it goes. When we first got Rio she went fine, but was relatively unschooled and didn't have much proper topline muscle. I've never been much of one for schooling but we started having lessons (for both of us:)) and Rio soon cottoned on. Her physique has changed a lot and it's like riding a smooth well oiled machine now. Working like this has made her back and hindquarters stronger and means her working life should hopefully be longer as well.

You can get a horse working on the bit bitlessly but as Harry suggests it's a lot more difficult and takes a lot longer. Even classical trainers will have a novice horse working into a contact using a bit, the ideal lighter contact only comes once the horse has learnt self carriage. I would guess that many horses working this way bitless did learn to do it in a bit originally.

Contrary to what Tangle posted about pelhams, they are actually a very useful way of teaching a horse to work properly, and I doubt a 'traditional' dressage trainer would recommend using one, they aren't dressage legal for starters. Used the way Heather Moffett recommends they make it obvious and easy for the horse to understand what is being asked of it and the curb relaxes the lower jaw, which is important for true softness. *edit* Just to add that Richard Maxwell uses a Myler Combi to teach a horse the same thing, and both 'ask and release' when doing this.

[Tangle]

Contrary to what Tangle posted about pelhams, they are actually a very useful way of teaching a horse to work properly, and I doubt a 'traditional' dressage trainer would recommend using one, they aren't dressage legal for starters. Used the way Heather Moffett recommends they make it obvious and easy for the horse to understand what is being asked of it and the curb relaxes the lower jaw, which is important for true softness. *edit* Just to add that Richard Maxwell uses a Myler Combi to teach a horse the same thing, and both 'ask and release' when doing this.
Sorry - bad example. My most recent experience of pelhams have been for CONTROL. However, as with so many other things in riding, pretty well any bit is only as good or bad as the hands that are using it. My comment certainly wasn't meant as a slur on Heather ;) Interesting, though - I hadn't realised they weren't dressage legal.

[Nicole5310]

Sorry if i repeat anything...

Tootsie4u thats how I understood the parelli system with the bit being the ultimate refinement. Besides you need a bit for competition and if you are in perfect sync with your horse why should you be scared of using one, it seems that some people are taught that using parelli means not using a bridle.

I have been lucky enough to have two wonderful dressage horses and I would ride them both occasionally bareback with the parelli halters. While I know the principles and have used the techniques in the past i never did with these two. (I use parelli if I see it as a possible solution to a problem I'm having)

Now with both of these dressage horse I found they were uncomfortable working round in the halters because they are not used to the weight of the buckle/rope swing under their head. In fact they went quite hollow. If I used a lighter rope they would both begin to reach down. And if I rode with contact through the parelli rope the would also take an outline stretching into the contact on their nose. Now I didnt even know horses would reach for a different sort of contact in a halter but they both did it.

Horses that are trained for it should reach for the contact not be forced, never let anyone tell you otherwise. To train them for it you have to offer a light contact, thats where lines get blurry and people dont know if they are forcing or asking. That is where you should start if you want to ride in a bridle and get lessons. Since you are riding in the halter you are not offering contact so your horse has nothing to reach into and he wont stretch through his back which is the first step. There is nothing better than feeling the energetic, supple spring of a horse working correctly, and its so much better if you got there together.

I hope I've been of some help and I sure hope I havent repeated anyone else.

[Harry Hobbes]

Someone correct me if Im wrong but from what I understood in reading Parelli's book is that he advocates begining with the rope halter, progressing to only the neck strap, then further progressing to no halter or strap and THEN to the bit. Reason being, the bit is for refining. He leaves the bit for later so that the riders does not become dependant upon controlling the head (as many of us do, including yours truly!). Instead, they learn how to ride from the back end forward rather than vice versa.
Kinda-sorta-true.

Level 1 - You ride in the halter and get the basic "control" down with one rein; and then the backup with the two-rein (mecate) on the halter.

Level 2 - You ride in the snaffle and start the various riding exercises and drills; and you start the "soft feel" (a la Marten's Problem Solving book) to develop "contact".

Level 3 - You continue to advance riding in the snaffle: three speeds in each gait, counter-canter, half-pass, etc. Then ride "free style" (no bridle).

"Free-style" comes after you have a fairly well-trained horse; but you use the snaffle to prepare for the free-style.

Learning to ride from the back end forward is very much about learning to "motivate" from behind the drive line, and Parelli demonstrates this starting from Level 1 on the ground, and progressing up through all levels when mounted. (Thus the emphasis on the "spank".)

Best regards,
Harry