Barging needs nipping in the butt

[Denbenj]

Hello My New Filly has become very bargey in Stable and at field gate .. What tips would people recommend to get this nipped in the butt before she gets bigger!

Thanks

Lenny x

[Miriam]

I was always told to get a spray bottle, fill it up with water and spray it at the head of the horse (watch the eyes though only thing I dont like about the suggeston). Heard people have wonderful results with it.

Before I would try any tactics though I'd try to find the reason for her bargyness. Is she hungry? I had a huge argument with one of the horses in my field yesterday (thought it was going to kick me) because she wanted to be in and wanted me to take her. reason being she i shungry as there is not much grass in the field. As for the stable. Is it when she wants to be out? Is she the last horse that is put out? In this case it could be that she just wants to be out wiht he friends.

[lisae]

When I go through this with my youngsters (and I had a Haflinger gelding that was all chest and pushing with his head, too!) I do two things, first I work in the stall on getting them to move their hips over, they must step under themselves with the hind leg closest to you stepping away and moving their rumps away from you. I have them do that both ways a lot! Then I work on backing them with the halter until they are consistantly backing and know what 'back' means. Only then do I try again to lead them out of the stall and then I tell them to stay back and leave a lot of space! This has worked nicely with young horses who may be a little nervous about going out and think that riding up on your back is going to make them feel safer. I have seen two kinds of bargy with mine, one is the nervous kind and one is the rude kind! How old is your filly?

[Denbenj]

hello thanks for the suggestion I dont see that can do any harm and I will try...

I not sure she will be hungry..really good grazing at yard not a poached field in site..alougth she been moved into main paddocks and grass may be to good if you understand!.. It varies when she is first out or last out.. She will come in and have her hay/feed then try to barge about after sticking head out of door... trying to barge out when I open it. her stable pals are either side of her..she has been fine so far just started doing this and is getting worse. I have noticed she has came into season last week..and maybe I just have invested in a very Marish mare when the word SEASON is about!..

She seems happy in stable in evening hard to explain really... I guessed she may be like this when I first got her as she was out 24/7 but she was pretty sedate...maybe its just the doping when I bought her waring of !!!

I am a bit worried on a differnt note though as her two stable pals are very firey...one a 17.3TB who is a nightmare to lead in for owner and the other a Very cheeky Pony... I am thinking of moving yards as I dont want her to follow lead May seem daft!.. when I bring her in the TB is chasing round and makes her a bit giddy..alougth they all have there own paddock they surround each other.

Any thoughts?!

[Denbenj]

When I go through this with my youngsters (and I had a Haflinger gelding that was all chest and pushing with his head, too!) I do two things, first I work in the stall on getting them to move their hips over, they must step under themselves with the hind leg closest to you stepping away and moving their rumps away from you. I have them do that both ways a lot! Then I work on backing them with the halter until they are consistantly backing and know what 'back' means. Only then do I try again to lead them out of the stall and then I tell them to stay back and leave a lot of space! This has worked nicely with young horses who may be a little nervous about going out and think that riding up on your back is going to make them feel safer. I have seen two kinds of bargy with mine, one is the nervous kind and one is the rude kind! How old is your filly?

HELLO
My filly is 2 .. I would say she is more of the rude barging she certainley seems to be quite gutsy rather than nervous.

[Tootsie4U]

Is this while leading - or in general? Either way, train her to respect and stay out of your space. There are many ways to do that.

If she's barging while being led; you can train her to stand by your shoulder, or wherever you want her to be. Have her haltered with a lead rope. Whenever she barges past that point (Shoulder), twirl the opposite end of the lead rope into the space you dont want her to be in. Notice I said twirl the rope into the space, not at her head. However, if her head just so happens to be in that space, opps... its going to strike her jaw. Use a cotton rope so you wont risk accidently hurting her.

As she begins to understand you can refine the correction to a cue to stay behind your shoulder. You wont need to twirl the rope any longer. I've graduated to just lifting the rope an inch and setting it back down (like I was setting down his foot) and my horse understands and will stay back or halt or whatever we're trying to do.

Another neat trick to help bargyness when leading is to slow your own walking and try to time your footfalls with the horses. Getting into the rythm helps both horse and human know where each other are and to stay in a space relative to each other. Thats just a side note...

[Yann]

Does she understand how to lead and respect your space? If not it's not something she's unlikely to deduce for herself. Lisae's advice is very good, you need to get them backing up on command and yielding to youn and you may need to be quite positive about it at first. There's a bit of a saying that if you have control of the feet then you have control of the horse and it's very true.

I wouldn't use a water spray on a horse's face though, I suspect it's going to make them nervous of people and possibly headshy as well.

[Brandy]

I've a youngster who's been the same. Also bargy and incapable of keeping still when lead. The problem really disappeared when he moved onto a field with more grass (he was hungry as Miriam suggested). A parelli halter has worked wonders almost overnight - he now walks behind me like a dog!
The stable thing I'm still working on, somebody suggested something REALLY obvious that I'd not actually thought of - why not just tie him up in the stable when you're coming an going, by the door so you can just reach in and untie when you're done. I know its not a long term solution but it works for now (and saves a lot ot of pushing and swearing - you know the one, where you find yourself stuck in the doorway with your bum sticking out into horse's chest and trying to shut the door at the same time :rolleyes: ;)
I like the spray bottle idea too, I've done that with our cats when they tried to scratch the wallpaper off :eek:

[cvb]

saw some interesting work in this area at a recent clinic. Am struggling a bit to write it up - but basically it is about consistency and setting boundaries.

This may help me with writing my notes up, so I'm gonna have a bash...

it goes something like this...

when a foal is little the herd basically lets them get away with anything. They can pretty much behave how they want. Then, at a certain age, they start to have to learn to not just barge about. The whole herd does this - they set boundaries.

Now when we have a young horse, we also need to make this transition. They need to learn where your boundaries are. But to do that YOU need to clearly set what is ok and what is not, and be consistent.

The clinician (Mark Rashid) set his boundaries at arm's length. But he said its pretty much up to you where you set them. Personally his choice seems to make a lot of sense. Whenever the horse tries to come inside that space, he finds your arm in the way ;) It was NOT hitting the horse - very passive, more like a block. If he still came into the space he was simply moved out of it.

Mark worked on leading - and as part of this on halts. And turns. Again using the same boundaries. He kept the horse behind him at all times. When he wanted to stop he would turn and look at the horse's feet. The horses picked up on this cue really fast and would start to slow as he started to turn. If the horse came forward, he just backed it up. When you turn, the horse should not turn inside you - ends up "in front". It should wait, and then follow.

The reason for setting and keeping boundaries is that if the horse doesn't know that its behaviour is "wrong", why is it going to stop ? As far as the horse knows the behaviour is "good", because we accept it without comment.

The young horses he worked like this all got calmer and more relaxed as a result. So even if it is fear or anxiety rather than bolshieness, this should help.

[Brandy]

cvb, that IS really interesting. My youngster is rising 3 and from weaning until 2 when I bought him he lived out with other youngsters and no adult 'nanny' to teach the why's and wherefors of being a 'grown up' horse. He's since found it very difficult to integrate himself into any field group and has often been bullied and ostracised from them to the point of escaping from fields. Things are statrting to settle now though, that, coupled with some extra handling persistance I've done with him he's really starting to respect the space of me and other horses.

[cvb]

Brandy - you'd have loved a lecture I was at on Friday evening then - on Equine Behaviour.

The speaker was saying she was going into breeding bolshie shetlands (bolshie on purpose !), so people could use them to help with their herd dynamics ! LOL

She had some interesting things to say. Dr. Debbie Marsden I think her name was.

She (and research pupils) had done some research which shows which behaviours are most likely to be "dominance" and which ones are more attention seeking or lower in the hierarchy.

We always hear about reactions when you saddle a horse - well from her research, kicking would indicate a much bigger problem...rather than the biting we hear about.

[Brandy]

bolshie shetlands, hmmm I've known a few of those over the years! (and softy ones of course)

I really must make more effort to find out about lectures on ANY subject in my area.
Could you clarify the saddling a horse paragraph for me (or am I a bit dense)

[cvb]

well normally we are told that if the horse swings its head, threatens to bite, or actually bites when you are saddling, it is a clear sign of pain.

So could be poorly fitting saddle, the way you are girthing, bad back etc

What she was saying is that biting is much more about attention seeking rather than a reaction to pain. If they were threatening to kick, it would be more of a sign of above.

I'm not 100% convinced. This is based on stats so it just means it is "more likely" than not. (Tho it was well over 50% so not borderline or marginal). Plus part of the research said that horses are less likely to try and kick (or threaten to kick) a horse higher than them in the pecking order. So if they see you as "leader", won't that mean they are less likely to try and kick you ?

The bite vs kick thing wasn't the whole picture - I would probably be looking at other aspects (ears etc) as well to get a better picture. So I am over-simplifying a bit.

She also talked about the line of the mouth, and how that changes depending on mood/intent. and the difference between agreesive ears back and non-aggressive ears back. And so on.

[Jessey]

A simple way to stop barging becoming a habit is to put a chain across the stable door a chest height, this then gives a physical boundry and you can then be a bit more relaxed while trying to teach them not to get to close or push on it.

My filly is nearly 2 and she can be really pushey, she is always hungrey (or thats what she tries to tell you) and desperate to either get in or out of both field and stable (if shes in she wants out and visa versa)
Whenever she charges out of the field I just stop what I am doing and stand still until she does the same, only when she stands will I aknowledge her and carry on.
When she tries to push out of the stable she is either backed up or tied up until she waits calmly, I use the word wait with feeds etc and she now knows to stand quietly and turn her head away form me to get it and this is starting to work about coming out of the stable too, I also give a clear command when I want her to follow me out of the stable (just to try and make things really clear for her) I use 'come' whenever I want her to follow me (this has helped with loading etc aswell :p )

I think whatever you choose to do the key is to be consistant with it.

J :)

[Denbenj]

Some really interesting points here..Have taken it all on board!..

In answer to some questions she is really perfect when being lead anywhere,,we often go for a walk round the block is a different horse!..

I would say its mainly when in the stable with her and when I'm trying to unlcock the gate she just barges me into the corner which is MOST annoying!.. Coming back in she is ok...going into stable fine then its when shes eaten and that she will start to be bargey she will eat mouth full of hay then scat back to door ( reminds me of my dog eating dinner!! lol eats a mouthful..wanders of then back to bowl!)

She has been really well behaved tonight though..! I tied her up outside and groomed her on yard... she is getting really good at letting me pick all four feet ( started on fronts ..then gradually towards rear end!)

I guess these are little niggles that need ironing out!...She seems to respond better tonight by being tied up on yard first.

I did try to tie her in stable once but nearly pulled ring of wall! she seems happy to be tied up on yard with haynet or not..

We are both new to each other and I guess she may also be trying out her boundries with me.. I dont think she is used to the daily routine kind of thing..but tough luck girl you will have to!!

[Beausowner]

My horse was bargy when I had him - a fault his previous owner who had had him since he was 3 (8 now and I've had him 7 months) warned me about. He is now very good with me and never barges past me (quite the opposite he follows) or pulls when being led, although we'll still have the occasional argument if he is hungry and there's a haynet on the door, but I always make sure I win. When entering the stable I would bend my arm so I could lie it across his chest and grab his headcoller so he could't run out (this took a bit of doing as he's Section d). While doing this I said "Back" and if he looked as if he would barge banged him on the chest with my arm then would make him wait until I was ready to take him out if he tried pulling we'd wait longer. Similarly when putting him back in his stable I always go with him and turn him to face me and stand while I go out. Did this with the field as well. When he would try to get the grass on the way to the field I would always pull him up and shout at him - sometimes with a real tug on the leadrope. I had to be patient and it took a while and an aching left shoulder, but it's been well worth it. He'll now lead on a loose rope beside me and never barges out of the stable - I can even leave the door open. Goo luck anyhow.

[Denbenj]

Sounds like your hard work certainley has paid of! What a superb turnaround!