Having a few...issues?

[shandy84]

humm where to start.

Well today was a really nice day so decided to book the school for half an hours schooling this afternoon.

I got Shandy in from the field and tacked her up no probs, had her bridle checked by one of the other liveries to make sure all was okay and it was so jumped on board.

Well that was the best bit.

I spent half an hour just trying to get Shandy to concentrate, but all she wanted to do was to pay attention to everything other than me and jog around with her head level with mine, thank god I cut all her mane back or I wouldn't have been able to see.

Shandy was very nappy towards the gate (had to force her to circle a few times as she set her neck to that direction and refused to acknowledge me)

She was spooking at everything from the letter markers to the horses in the field below. I almost got bolted with three times and I'm able to hold and pre-empt her most of the time but she was really throwing me about doing this. She didn't win though and was made to work still.

I had a couple of trots where she just motorbiked around the school took a lot of effort to break her out of it.

That was our half hour in the school, not wanting to end on a bad note I took her up the lane (she has been down here a million and one times) but she kept trying to bolt back home and really kept trying to useat me, it wasn't Shandy being nice anymore and suggesting we go home, she was demanding she go and it would be with or without me.

So I pushed her ona little further onto the big field we ride in and here although her attention was not on me in the least she wasn't napping as much. We rode down to a bridlepath which leads to a road, we trotted the road (was empty) and back down the lane to the yard the road work went well as she didn't know the way so and to listen a bit.

I am now at a loss as to what problem to start with first. i need to get her head down to control her and teach her to work properly but know that forcing her via a training aidwill not solve it merely mask it. Shandy has been behaving like this for my OH for a few months now, yet it is only now she has tried it on wth me, but my OHs confidence is far below what it should be because of her antics.

I am happy to look at myself for change, but know it is t do with her lack of schooling unfortunate really as we were going so well before sh hurt her knee.

I was wondering if a fleece nosebannd would be of any use, but would that still only mask the problem.

Where do I start and what do I do? I cannot afford lessons before that is suggested, but would have help training her at the weekend so could have someone on the ground if necessary.

help :(

[shandy84]

no-one got any thoughts :(

[Silver1]

It sounds like she's gotten barn sour, and lost her respect for you. Can't think of any suggestions as to what to do about it at the moment. :(

[Solo and Topper]

Shandy was very nappy towards the gate (had to force her to circle a few times as she set her neck to that direction and refused to acknowledge me)

Topper does that (if i am thinking about the right meaning for the word 'nappy' is that charging towards the gait?). What i do is i jst keep a shorter rein and urge him past it with my legs (i am soo sorry if i am wrong about the 'nappy' word if so i can't really help you:(:(:()

[shandy84]

No nappy is right in that context Shandy will also nap towards other horses, I don't know is it possible for a horse to be barn sour a fornight back into work and only the third or fourth tim being ridden, I've never had experience of being barn sour?

Solo, I did that too when she didn't bolt for the gate :rolleyes:

[Tootsie4U]

all was okay and it was so jumped on board.


Bingo.

Hardly do-able with the babies. Only asking for trouble if you do.

Pre-flight checks, PRE-flight checks ;)

[shandy84]

how'd ya mean toots

[Esther.D]

I assume tootsie is referring to the Parelli (and probably other people's too) method of checking 'what side of bed your horse got out of this morning' ie do a bit of ground work first to warm up and check for responsiveness etc. Parelli points out that you wouldn't get in an airoplane and fly it without some preflight checks..so you should do the same with your horse - that way if there is any loopiness in store you discover it whilst on the ground rather than on her back ;) This works well with Rupert and I find that a couple of minutes ground work just gets him listening to me and prepares him to concentrate on what we are doing.

I suspect it was just a bit of babyness - she is still very young and her concentration span is short and she will still try you out every so often to see what she can get away with :)

[shandy84]

So on that method if i were to do a bit of longreining first then hop on just to finish, that would be better because I could set her up to succeed by having her brain already in gear? Or would you suggest another way? I have the school booked tmorrow morning as she seems to wrok better in the morning so am happy to try anything you guys suggest to see what works

[Esther.D]

any kind of ground work really - I have done it with lunging, longreining and the Parelli games, anything that gets them to listen to you and lets you assess from safety of the ground what mood they are in ;)

It only need be a couple of minutes, that is where the Parelli games come in handy as you can do them all tacked up and with no special equipment other than your 12ft line and possibly the carrot stick - therefore it doesn't hold you up and delay your ride.

[shandy84]

You know I have never lunged etc before I have ridden, do you think sme inhand practice for our showing would be good or would you stick with something more simple like lunging?
I will def give it a go in the morning see if there's an improvement.

if the horse is in a really off mood in terms of being spooky and silly would you still get on?

[Esther.D]

Ummmmmm, well it depends really. The Parelli theory is just stick to ground work if that is the case, personally...well it depends on the horse and what I was trying to achieve, on one hand there is no point provoking an unecessary fight with the youngster if groundwork would be more appropriate to their mood, but on the other they do need to learn to settle and ride sensibly. Even if I do get on and ride I tend to tailor the lesson to their mood - ie slow, steady stuff if they are really fizzy etc

[shandy84]

Esther I didn't ride today, Shandy doesn't quite seem right very quiet and disobedient, so I gave her a massage and a day off hopfully this'll cheer her up, maybe she is coming into season

[eventerbabe]

she's a young horse, my boy was just the same at that age. its something you just have to work through. try the fluffy noseband cover, i used one when toby was playing up. its only a temporary thing and not a solution but may help short term. don't not ride, then she has won. do a little bit every day and always end on a good note. don't make sessions longer that 10-15 mins, then they will start to lose concentration. as for solving the napping, not sure on how to do that, my boy grew out of that. try not to let them stop, keep her moving even if its not in the direction you want! i'd save up for a few lessons aswell. good luck :)

[Yann]

As Tootsie and Esther suggest I'd be inclined to back off with the riding and concentrate on doing a bit of groundwork and long lining / lunging to get her listening and respecting you first. It doesn't matter whether it's Parelli, Kelly Marks, Richard Maxwell or whatever, once you have her sorted on the ground then it'll transfer to being ridden and problems with napping and ignoring you should be drastically reduced.

[eventerbabe]

if you back off riding then she has won. and if you give in now you are setting up battles for later on in her life. ground work, such as lungeing is fine and may take a bit of fizz out of her before riding but i'd certainly not reccomend just giving in to her coz she's been naughty.

[Yann]

Eventerbabe, it doesn't sound like you understand what groundwork is all about. It isn't just about taking fizz out of a horse, done right it has a far reaching effect on the horses attitude and behaviour.

It's not a battle of wills or a competition, or shouldn't be.

[eventerbabe]

i'm not into all this parelli or kelly marks stuff so maybe i don't fully understand "ground work" but i've schooled on enough young horses to know that nappy, naughty behaviour is part and parcel of having a youngster, and if you are not prepared to work through it then you shouldn't have a young horse. i have never used all these natural methods on my horses and i have two lovely, very, very well schooled animals. maybe i was taught the "old school (BHS)" way but it hasn't had a detrimental effect on my horses who don't have attitude or behaviour problems. just stopping riding is giving into bad behaviour and its not something i would do with a young horse. but everyone has their own methods.

believe me, with a strong willed cob, things do sometimes end up in a battle of wills and i don't believe in letting a horse have its own way i.e. spooking and napping

[eventerbabe]

its a rider confidence issue aswell, if you just stop riding after having a bad session, how likely is it you will get back on again in the future? i've seen it happen in our old yard, one woman stopped riding to concentrate on ground work as she said the horse spooked too much, nearly 4 years later she still won't ride the horse. if ground work helps with manners and obedience then go for it, but i don't think stopping riding completely for a while is the answer.

[Alibi]

Is Shandy rising 4? Sure she's the same age as my boys.

If I were you I'd take my saddle in to the arena, do some groundwork as the others have said and if she feels settled and is in the right frame of mind then get on her. If she plays up get off and go back to the groundwork, until your able to get back on again or until you get some good work on the ground.

If she's having an off day just keep on with the groundwork until you can finish on a good note and leave it there.

At the end of the day is there any point in rushing her if she if not ready to be just jumped on? And also think of your safety, its much easier and safer to solve problems on the ground first rather than have her bolt off with you or potentially worse.

I also don't see the point of battling against a horse in the saddle as they don't learn anything then, apart from losing trust in the rider.

Eventerbabe - I don't believe its a rider confidence thing - if I do not feel safe on a horse I get off, despite being a confident rider, its the sensible thing to do as I value my life!

Also the "old school BHS way" teaches you the importance of groundwork, especially when backing a youngster, it is not meerly for "taking the fizz out" but an import stage of a young horse's education.

[chev]

Sorry eventerbabe, I totally disagree. I've been backing and schooling horses for over 15 years too so I'm talking from at least some experience.

Not riding because she's going through a nappy phase is not letting her win at all. Riding should be fun for rider and horse - not a battle of wills where you just go all out to prove you're boss and the horse *will* be ridden. Forcing the issue when things are not going well is only setting both horse and rider up for failure - at the very best the horse will start to resent work, which imho is the last thing I'd want as a trainer.

Working through bolshy behaviour in an older horse is vastly different to working through that with a baby. Shandy's mare is still very young, only just coming back into work, and while she may well be trying it on the way forward is to set her up to win - not get into a fight about it.

Going back to groundwork for a little while would give Shandy the opportunity to work on yielding with her mare again, get her listening, work on respect issues and make sure all the basics are in place before she tackles riding again.

I'd echo what Esther says (I don't do Parelli really but you don't need to to see the sense in this) about the groundwork pre-ride. Do something she's good at and happy with - if she longreins well, then long-rein in the school for say, 15 minutes. Go over some poles, do some yielding work (back up, sideways, that sort of thing), make her think but make it easy for her. When she's relaxed and having fun, get on. Stay in walk - again, make it easy for her to get it right. Walk her over some poles, through some poles, maybe a couple of circles and lots of halts and rein changes. Don't spend too long in the saddle - even five minutes of obedient walk will do you both the world of good. If it takes a week of groundwork for you to feel she's ready to ride, great - if it takes six weeks, great. If you think she's ok after just one session on the ground... great!

You need to think laterally with youngsters. Yes, they push their luck - but they also get very easily overwhelmed and confused. The easier you make it for them to get it right, the happier you'll both be. There shouldn't be a battle, or any need to 'win' - you're not letting her get away with anything by working on basics and setting her up to get things right.

If she's a pain hacking out, get off. Take some long-reins coiled up in a back pack, and get them out and work her from the ground. When she's softening and listening again, get back on. It takes time, but it does work. She's not going to think she's won if you get off and drive her for a bit - she's still having to work, you're still in charge - but it puts you back in control and gets her attention again.

[eventerbabe]

can i please reiterate that i did NOT say ground work was just for taking the edge off a fresh horse, i said it MAY help take the edge off her. i was trying to point out that it can help to lunge before riding. people on this board are far too quick to shout others down. we all have our own experiences and have been taught different methods. in cases like this any advice can help. sorry i even bothered posting my thoughts

[notpoodle]

about the 'fresh' bit. if i remember rightly, shandy gets to go outside in the field most time, ie. is probably unlikely to 'explode' cos she has been locked up.

@ shandy84: no idea what to suggest (i lack experience in this field, ahem) but maybe maybe she was just having 'one of those days'? angel is terrible sometimes and absolutely fine/very good the next day. when she is being a pain, i normally do stuff i KNOW she can do and can do well, so we still manage a sucessful session somehow :)

julia
x

[eventerbabe]

I've been backing and schooling horses for over 15 years too so I'm talking from at least some experience.



i have brought on three young horses (2 of whom were my own) and schooled a friends youngster. hence i have no experience?

julia, yes its unlikely she's gonna be fresh since she's out all the time, but when working with my boy (as a 3YO) he tended to get excited whenever he saw the saddle! so my instructor reccomended lungeing him just to get him thinking and listening to me. i still sometimes lunge before going out hacking as he can be a bit of a so and so :D hackings not his thing, much prefer jumping

[shandy84]

eventerbabe i have used both tranditional and BHS style training for my two ad to be honest up till now this has worked very well.

Yann, I have a little problem with that and that is that she 100% listens to me on the ground 100% of the time, which is great (was all the groundowrk we had to do daily while she was off) I have longreined in tack and without the same with lungeing and we have done a lot of walking out in hand tacked and not.

So what do i do? It's as if in her head she's happy with me on the ground bossing her about but lacks confidence or gets a bit too boss mare when I'm on top and decides to be a little demon pony :)

Shandy is rising 4 come late summer - just writing this another four replies have come up - eek won't keep up.

Eventerbabe I value your opinion as much as any other that has been posted and acknowledge they are all different. Shandy is a funny mare very sensitive and if you don't take the right approach you are back 100 days training, she's just that type.

I can't tell guys if the reason she's getting so bad with me is because she's leart she can get away with it with the OH as she really does take th mick out of him? If so what do you think?

[eventerbabe]

i completely understand coz toby was (and still is) very tempremental. the slightest off day, particularly regarding hacking, can set him way back and it takes months to get him confident and happy again. my concern with the riding thing is partly due to my own experiences with toby.

it wouldn't suprise me if she is thinking "oh, well, i can boss him about, lets have a go with mum!". toby is wicked with my mum, plays up something chronic (this is just handling/leading situations!) and he does sometimes try it on with me, but soon realises i'm not gonna let him play up with me like he does with my mum! Bonnie is the other way round. loves my mum and leads me a merry dance!

[chev]

i have brought on three young horses (2 of whom were my own) and schooled a friends youngster. hence i have no experience?

I'm not getting into an argument here. I did not say, or even imply, that you had no experience - I said in fact that I had the benefit of some experience too - so implying that you are experienced, if anything.

I too learnt using the 'old BHS' methods, which, when I was taught at least, relied fairly heavily on preparatory groundwork.

I worked at a yard that took horses and ponies for breaking and schooling - what I posted is based heavily on what I learnt, and did, there. They had around 20 ponies a year going through for backing.

I'm not shouting you down at all. I disagree with something you stated - that not to ride is letting her win - no big deal. Please don't put words in my mouth though.

[chev]

Some horses do find the transition from having the handler on the ground to being on top difficult to deal with - either because they lose confidence (which would explain the napping) or because they just don't get the fact that because you're no longer on the ground doesn't mean you're not still in charge.

That's where the groundwork comes in again - when she starts to play up while you're riding, getting the long reins out re-affirms that she does still have to listen to you, even if you have to get off to remind her. It's about using a language that she understands. She understands that you're boss while you're on the ground - now you need to make the move to ridden work, without losing her confidence or respect.

Does she understand voice cues? That's sometimes a useful place to start. If she'll respond to voice aids while you're on the ground, use them in the saddle too - more so than leg and rein aids, if you can. That's one way of making the connection between ground and saddle. If she's not good with voice yet, it might be worth trying that approach. I've found it really useful in the past.

If you can find someone you trust to help, it would also be worth lunging her under saddle - again, it helps her understand that she still has to do as she's told when ridden. Having someone in the saddle while she's lunged makes it easier to move control from the ground to the saddle. It's something we did a lot with babies - it clarifies the whole 'who's in charge' question, but you do need two people!

[eventerbabe]

my major concern with the riding thing is if she loses confidence and stops riding, will she be confident again once she's done some groundwork? it happened many times at our old yard, the example i gave before and with a little conny gelding who i ended up handling and schooling coz the owner could no longer face riding him. i see things from a nervous riders point of view coz i used to get crippled with nerves.

they way i progressed with my boy(although he was broken when i got him) was get him happy with saddle/bridle, start lungeing/longreining then combine this with a short ride at the end of the session. he seemed more focussed and settled after lungeing.

my apologies for misinterpreting your post :(

EDIT: lungeing with the saddle on is a great idea, just be careful she doesn't do what my boy did and shoot off, motorbike round a corner and come crashing down on his brand new saddle :eek:

[chev]

eventerbabe - no worries. I'm sorry I upset you...

I see your point about losing confidence. The problem is that if Shandy gets into a battle with her mare every time they go out then she'll lose confidence anyway. My feeling is that by addressing the mare's issues (it sounds a little like she's (mare) not quite understood the whole transition from ground to saddle yet - and is either a bit lacking in confidence without Shandy (person) on the ground, or doesn't have quite the same respect for her (person again) when mounted) things will start to fall into place under saddle.

edit to clarify which Shandy I'm on about...!

[Tootsie4U]

Shandy, if she *is* 100% on the ground with you, then take that as a hint that *there* is the perfect place to start your lessons with her. Yes, you set her up to succeed so that way learning is fun and she'll tune into you. If you've got her attention and can keep it, she wont find things to nap at.

I personally DONT like to get into the habit of lunging each and every time before I get on. It becomes a crutch to both horse and rider. Somewhere down the line you WILL want some exhuberance from your mare under saddle. Its good to learn to ride that energy and put it to good use, not just let it escape on the other end of a lunge line. And, unless you are a master at lunging, all they really get out of it is loosening up the muscles. In comparison, there is little mental energy expelled verse simple ground work or even round penning. The other thing is, letting your horse tank around on the lunge line in the name of expelling some fizz isn't really a good thing to allow the horse to do. Work is work, its not play time. Also, if you allow bucks and broncs in your presence at all - how does the horse understand he can do it then, but not at other times, like when your on his back? I think its just better to set clear boundaries. If they need to buck and tank around, set her loose in her paddock - thats where that business should occurr. Enough ranting there...

Find some exercises that she's good at that will cue her into you no matter whats going on around her. If Bonfire's attention starts to wonder - a quick yo-you game usually brings him back.

I have groundwork lessons now that Im pregnant in place of ridden lessons. The first few times the lesson went a full two hours and ONLY THEN did the instructor say that Bonfire was tuned in enough for her to feel safe about getting on him. He was fairly well behaved during the lesson, but truth be told, he really wasnt 'latched' on 110% until then. Not saying your groundwork sessions have to be that long, just saying its good to make sure you've got them while on the ground before you compromise your safety by getting on their back. :) This is especially important for the young ones who are still learning about the world and give into the natural instincts too easily.

[shandy84]

I have an abundance of confidence and have ridden some really s**tty horses in the past, Shandy in comparison to thoseis nothing, the reason i don't know how to deal with it is because Shandy is my first youngster and I don't want togive her a bad start. She's not done anything terrible yet to make me lose any confidence, I just get mildly irritated when she backs right up in her training, not the best way to be but it does mean I'm happier to get back on.

Yes she understands all voice cues. While we were out hacking, she tried to nap and I told her to stand up and be goo, well unexpectedly she did just that stood immediatly (almost popped ontoher ears :o ) it's one of those when she sets her mind to ignoring me they will go, n the ground the voice commands are 100% and on top she will hear the command and if you get her attention back she will respond to it well.

I have the OH at the weekend he hates sitting on her in circles but I could pop up and let him lunge. Would it be worth starting off by lunging t warm her up then me getting on and continuing the session?

Who is the one who should correct her if she spooks or tries to bolt (just covering all eventualities)

How would you fiit the lunge line on so that it doesn't interfere with the reins?

Chev that was a little mind boggling :eek:

I see where you are cming from, could the break have caused this to become more of an issue as she has done nothing but groundwork for two months? Would it also explain why she is happy to plod along being very resposive if Bramble joins us? In that she has someone to trust there to keep her safe? She is a very flighty animal and very nervy no-matter that we have walked her out in hand since a yearling showing her scary things time and time again.

[chev]

If you're lunging a rider on board, then you fit the bridle and then a lunge cavesson over the top (well kind of - the bridle fits under the cavesson at the headpiece but then the noseband of the cavesson is done up under the bridle cheeks... now that's mind-boggling, sorry!) Reins go from bit to rider as per normal, and the lunge line is attached to the ring at the centre of the cavesson noseband. It doesn't interfere with the bridle reins at all.

For going from riding to long-reining, either remove the reins altogether and buckle the long lines onto the bit (run them through the stirrup irons) or just knot the riens. Again, the longlines shouldn't get tangled up at all.

When you start off lunging with a rider on the control stays with the person lunging to begin with. The rider basically just sits there. I think Shandy's gone beyond that stage though. Start off with the lunger giving commands, and gradually shift the emphasis over to the lungee. It takes some practice, but it's quite easy really - you should get to the point where the rider is in charge fairly quickly, and the person on the ground is there as back-up when needed.

She does sound more and more like she's very reliant on someone on the ground to give her confidence. I think lungeing with a rider will go a long way to addressing that. I also think that if you can keep the work mainly ground orientated and just build up ridden time a little at a time over the next couple of weeks it'll help maintain her confidence in you. I do think she's maybe lost a bit of confidence in her ridden work after the time off she's had, especially given that she's a bit anxious anyway, but I also think that if you take things slowly and make sure that she's happy with each stage now she'll come on quite quickly again.

[Tootsie4U]

She does sound more and more like she's very reliant on someone on the ground to give her confidence. I think lungeing with a rider will go a long way to addressing that.

Also, Parelli's driving and squeeze game works wonders for this! It Teaches independance!!! Started doing this with Bonfire to resolve his fear of door ways and other scary stuff! (would be fine with them if he had help on the ground but once Im in the saddle - that stuff is the devil! :D)

[Mehitabel]

you can also just pout the cavesson on first, then bridle over the top, which is easier. you might need to take the bit down a hole though, if it's on over the cavesson.

[shandy84]

I will give that a go then thanks for the advice, hopefully I'll have some good news to report after the weekend, will probably just do a bit of longreining ver the next couple of days, so that she's done something that she can do well easily so hopefully wont feel out of depth again.

Tootsie I need a laymans terms on the games you suggested I have just read the two you suggested and the phases are confusing

Game #7
The Squeeze Game
Horses by nature are claustrophobic. They are afraid of any small or tight space.
The Squeeze Game teaches your horse to become braver and calmer, to squeeze through narrow spots without concern. Start with a large gap (it might have to be very large) between you and a fence, wall, or even a barrel. Ask your horse to go through the space while you stand still. In the beginning, it may help if you walk backwards and parallel to the fence to help your horse squeeze through. The reason walking backward works well is because it helps draw the horse toward you. For phase 1, direct your horse's nose into the gap. Phase 2 lift the tail of the rope. Phase 3 swing the rope a few revolutions. Phase 4 touch the horse behind the withers once. Then stop and begin again until the horse tries to move forward into the gap. As soon as he does, release the pressure, relax and smile. Pretty soon your horse will make it all the way through. Stand still and allow the rope to slide through your hand as he passes by you so he feels total release. You want to avoid him feeling a jerk backwards on the rope. As your horse gets more confident, make the space smaller and smaller until it is just three feet wide, like the stall of a horse trailer.
You can use the principle of the Squeeze Game to teach the horse to jump, go into trailers, wash bays, starting gates or roping boxes. Getting less claustrophobic also helps a horse accept the cinch.
Keys to Squeeze Game: walk backwards; start with a large space and move in small increments to smaller spaces, use four phases; play it with practical objects like trailers and jumps.


Game # 3
The Driving Game
This Game teaches the horse to respond to implied pressure, where you suggest to the horse to move and he moves without you touching him. In the beginning you may need to be at close range. Through the Levels you will be able to affect him from greater and greater distances. As this game is developed it looks like invisible communication between the horse and human.
Again, four phases are important - phase 1 is tapping the air, phase 2 is light tapping with finger tips on the horse, phase 3 is medium and insistent tapping with the fingers, phase 4 is slapping with flat hands. All the while the rhythm does not falter, does not change. As soon as the horse responds with even at try, relax your arms, smile and rub him. It does not take long for the horse to learn how to move away at phase 1. Learn to drive your horse in different directions - backwards, move the front end, move the hindquarter (hold the neck bent towards you for this).
Keys to Driving Game: Concentrated look, rhythm, four phases.

[Tootsie4U]

Parelli's phases are basically cues - each increasing in the amount of "energy" you ask with.

Phase 1 is the ideal. Ideally, you would like the horse to respond to a Phase I request each time. Usually, a Phase I request is simple body language.

If the horse is just learning or being a bit defiant - they may ignore Phase I. You'll need to escalate up the ladder to Phase 2. If they continue to ignore that level of energy, you up it more to Phase 3. By Phase 4, the horse MUST take the cue. Your energy is super high at this point - you're no longer asking or suggesting - you're demanding he do it.

You always always always start with the lowest Phase and ONLY ONLY ONLY progress up to the next if needed. Jumping directly to Phase 4 teaches your horse to only respond to tons of energy and they begin to tune out the subtleness you really want.

Does that help? Or are you looking for further instruction on how to do the games?

[shandy84]

No I think i've got it, so if I ask her to back up and just stand square and point at her that would be a phase one if she moves, is that right?

[Tootsie4U]

Even if she doesnt move, thats still a Phase I.

Think of Phase I as the least you can do *to her* but she'll still understand what the cue is.

You got it though. Parelli's yo-yo game is a backing up game. Phase I is giving the hand cue (point or touch lightly). If the horse doesnt respond within, say 3 seconds, you do Phase 2 - step into her space or (pulsate the touch). If you still dont get a response, Phase 3 - a twirling end of the lead rope maybe. The Phase 4 my instructor has me do is bridging the lead rope, raising it and snapping it on the bridge of his nose. As with anything, the split second you get what you want, you release the aid and in this example, back out of her space. Relative body position is important in a release too.

[Esther.D]

Parelli really is just common sense, I found it fitted very well with what I had been doing pre-parelli. The phases are also common sense - you give them chance to respond to the lightest then move up the phases in stages rather than just giving them a whack first time..its all common sense and a lot is there in the BHS 'traditional' methods too, just Parelli spells it out :)

[shandy84]

Its very strange Shandy already does movement on the ground with a phase one standar, back up is aked and her chest pointed to and she moves each foot to each cue of back up. Take it that's a good thing :) so to just do some stuff like that in the school may may her brain clock back on is that the idea

[Tootsie4U]

Bingo. Thats the place to start. The challenge is to keep it interesting for her. Not a drill. If she's so good at backing up - maybe try asking only the right hind to back up. And then you could advance to asking the left front to step out (laterally).... The list is endless and all of it serves to have her 'hook on' to you. If she's hooked, she'll be less likely to get distracted and think up games of her own.

[Yann]

I know the point has possibly been made already, but if she's that good on the ground and is light and responsive to you then the problems under saddle could well be lack of confidence. When you're on the ground the horse has their leader and is content, when you get on suddenly Shandy is the one who's in front and possibly feels she has to make the decisions. Have you tried having a walker with her on the ground while you're riding? If it makes a difference then that's you problem.

[shandy84]

Hiya, Toots those ideaas sound fun will try them next time I get the chance to I'll have her waving at me in no time ;) :D

Yann she is no different really when you have a person besides her on a leadrope, have yet to try the lungeing way and see if that makes a difference.

But if Bramble is walked out in hand with her she is happy to plod along behind her like an old schoolhorse I don't know what that would mean for her but she does definatly lack confidence somewhere :)

[Yann]

Her attention still wanders and she's nappy?

Please don't shoot me for suggesting it, nobody has mentioned it but it could potentially be a cause, but are you 100% happy with her saddle fit? If your OH is heavier than you it could account for her worse behaviour with him?

[shandy84]

I am never happy with her saddle fit after what happened last time :( , it seems to fit well in terms of look on her cut through the shoulder and there are no uneven sweat marks, I will hopefully be having a saddler out to measure Brable up soon so could get her saddle checked at the same time (it has been done in the last few months but I suppose being young there's always that option)

[shandy84]

Well, leading on from the suggestion Yann made that perhaps she was in pain from the saddle I decided to put her throgh a real MOT.

The results were severe mudfever on both hinds and mild on front, I feel very guilty for missing that one, think it's all the rushing I didn't pay attention to as much as I should have.

so I am now posting a thread checking my methods for dealing with this one, thankyou for all your help, hopefully she'll be right on track again when her feet are a little better

[tolduso]

just a couple of questions. since i live in the states i don't know what a OH is. and what do you mean by nappy?

[shandy84]

OH = partner (boyfriend/husband etc)

Nappy = when the horse tries to bolt for home

[cvb]

Tootsie said I personally DONT like to get into the habit of lunging each and every time before I get on. It becomes a crutch to both horse and rider.

Mark Rashid said something similar at a recent clinic - if you set up a firm routine, they can come to depend on that and through a bit of a wobbly if you depart from it.

For me, the "routine" is that we do something that involves training - I might lunge, or do some of the games, or.... And it may be quick or long - depends on how long it takes for madam to warm up ;) (and me !! )

I do believe that the un-mounted work you do carries over into the ridden work. And I wonder how much you could use some of the things described in Mark Rashid's books to help make the transition. He describes a step by step approach to backing a horse - with tinier steps then I've heard of before ;)

He also advocates practising getting OFF the horse - I know your horse isn't just being backed - but his comment is "how do they know you're going to get off ?!". So perhaps as part of your pre-flight checks you could actually get on and off from both sides as an "exercise" ? It might help her "remember" whats going on ?

(I went to help a friend ride her horses out a couple of years ago. She had a new horse - an ex-trotter - I didn't realise it had not had much ridden work :eek: So when I got on, I just go on as "normal" and the poor horse was a bit surprised ! Next time I took it much slower and she was much happier).