101 means of evasion!

[racipaci]

Dave could write a book on the subject of evasion. He is an OTTB who I am currently re-schooling. He is very sweet but is nine and has never been asked to work in an outline until now so he does find it very hard at times.

His previous method of evasion was to stick his head in the air whenever I asked him to use himself properly, i.e. on a small circle or leg yeilding, to which I just maintained a light contact and kept asking with my seat. We had about a week of proper work until yetserday when he evidently decided it was all far too much effort.

His new trick is to now drop the contact completely and overbend! whilst at the same time performing extravangent steps of trot, which probably looks impressive but still means he is avoiding the contact. I have just been keeping my leg on and a very light contact to bring him up again but I'm not sure what's worse his head in the air or in between his legs :rolleyes:

Any suggestions/comments welcome. :D

[tasha]

No real ideas here, but how is the bruising in his mouth? If its still there than I would have thought this is why he is overbending, as it could be hurting him poor boy.

[racipaci]

The bruising in his mouth is fine now, it's completely gone and I have him in a happy mouth straight bar which he is a lot better in although I guess he could still be not quite right, when I put the bit in he does play with it a lot and it takes him a while to settle with it in his mouth. he definitely prefers that to a snaffle though so I'm not sure what to try next.

To be honest though I don't think it was the bit but more him having a tantrum and not wanting to work as he does find it hard, in walk when he was working correctly he was really stamping his feet down in protest - quite funny really :) It felt more like when he was overbending he was doing it to get away from my legs and to avoid working from behind, it's hard to describe but felt as though he was overcompensating and rushing instead of placing his feet carefully and using himself (if that makes any sense)?.

[tasha]

Sorry no suggestions on the overbending etc, very unqualified hehe! The only thing I can really think of is that is he is anticipating the heavy hands of your ex-sharer and trying to prevent his sore mouth again. Which doesnt really help you. How about a couple of days groundwork and then try again with a fresh clean slate?

[katefarmer]

Hi Racipaci!

As you say he's never been asked to work in an outline before - he doesn't know that's "correct" - he's just looking for the thing that's going to stop you asking! :-)
You need to be really aware and precise about where you want his head to be, and when it's there, leave it alone. Go really quiet and make this place as soft and comfortable as you can.
If he goes too deep, just take both your hands forward and lightly "bump" until he raises his head, then stop as soon as he does.
It sounds as though he realized you wanted him to drop his head, which he did, but then he thought that if a little bit of down was good, a lot of down would be even better - and he's rolled over behind the bit. He's not evading - he's looking for the right answer. Horses work on a very simple logic - "look for the most comfortable place". We just need to make sure that the place we want is the most comfortable one! :-)
If he's not used to working in an outline, don't ask for too much at once. He'll be using new muscles, and if he gets sore and stiff, that position ceases to be comfortable and he'll look for something else. Just get a couple of good strides to start with, then give him a long rein and stroke him to show that was the right thing. Then you can gradually build it up. This way you're not forcing him into an outline, you're making that outline the place he wants to be.
The extravagant trot sounds like you could be using too much seat. Just relax a bit and slow your own movement down. Think about the rhythm and pace you want, ride that and wait for him to match you. It's easiest to get this going in rising trot, (rise higher for a longer stride, lower for a shorter stride) then go to sitting when he's got the idea.
When retraining like this I like to do a full retraining to the bit. There's an article about this on my website which you might find has some helpful ideas. (It's under Bridling and Bitting)

Good luck!

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

[racipaci]

Ok, thanks for that, i think I do definitely get into a mindset where I've always got to be doing something and then forget to just sit and let him carry me when he is working. I'm aware that i'm doing it just hard to stop myself. I'm very conscious of him being sore and unfit so have been taking it very carefully but I did work him quite hard on Tuesday so he may have been feeling it yesterday.

Will nag myself to stop nagging him tonight and see how it goes :)

*goes off to look at website about retraining to the bit*

[cvb]

Racipaci

in addition to what Kate said... accepting the contact doesn't have to be in a shortened frame (see I have a SKILL at stating the obvious ;) )

I know there is a lot of controversy about "long and low" - but if you ask im to accept the bit - but in a longer more novicey outline - what happens ?

You could alternate your shorter work with "long" work (like free walk on a long rein) to help show him that there is more comfort zone than he currently realises :D

Sometimes it can bea good training "game" to play to see how long a rein you can ride with ;) stops some of that tendency to creep up the reins and over-manage ;)

[Tootsie4U]

I think if you combine what Kate said and what cvb said, you can't go wrong.

Bonfire was developing similar evasions because I was riding him at a level he wasnt ready to be ridden at. Just as Kate said, he thought he was giving me what I wanted, yet he was giving too much so the answer was never yes - I was always nagging. There's alot more to it, but Kate has summed up just about everything. In order to retrain Bonfire and do away with these "evasions" (but remember, they really aren't real evasions) was to exagerate long and low. This came at the recommendation of my new instructor. And, in two or three months time - we worked out of it and both horse and rider were much happier.

[racipaci]

ok, maybe what he's actually doing then is good, whereas before he was stiff in the back and wouldn't "let go" he's now beginning to realise that it doesn't hurt to soften and stretch down? I haven't actively been trying to get him to work in any kind of outline I've just been concentrating on getting him to bend and accept my seat and step under himself without rushing and then just letting his outline come naturally, so maybe what CVB says is right in that I should encourage him down more now that he seems to be prepared to relax? right?

I am more than happy to work him long and low to build up the right muscles which maybe is what he is trying to do now that he feels he can stretch down.

thanks for all your comments they help me think about what he is doing and why he is doing it. He's such a willing horse he tries his best to please that it makes sense that he's doing it becuase he doesn't understand or finds it hard and not from naughtiness.

[Tootsie4U]

Like Kate said - it could simply be just another thing he's trying - another answer to release the pressure. He's not a mind reader, so he doesnt know that over bent is not desirable. All he knows is that it releases some pressure and thats all that matters to him.

You have to be obvious and show him there is a better way. To clear his mind of all that pressure, long and low is the standard recommendation. In fact, ride on the buckle if you feel safe and just push him along. He'll find his own way and will begin to stretch out. He'll soon start looking for that contact. If he throws his head up, resist the urge to pull it down again. He can't go for long with his head in the air and back hollowed out *if you're asking him to move out.*

[katefarmer]

I think CVB is right that working long and low is fine - and a good thing, but you suggested that he is putting his head down to his knees and over bending - which is not a good thing!

Long and low means stretching forward - that's fine, that will help relax the back and stretch the topline. Putting his head down to his knees and over bending means his neck is "breaking" at the wrong place. The highest point should be at the poll - and if he's going behind the bit, it will be further back. If he's doing this, and going behind the bit, he's avoiding stretching his back and is probably still tense in his jaw.

I wouldn't let him over-bend - bump him up again if he does that. To work him long and low, lengthen the rein gradually so that he stretches forward. Still do the retraining to the bit, so he is learning to soften his jaw when he feels the bit, not close it.

Good luck!

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

[racipaci]

ok, thanks for all your help. I've got a lesson on Sat so that should help too. In the meantime I'll work on all the things you've suggested :) and try to be clearer when I ask for what I want. :D

[Tootsie4U]

I wouldn't let him over-bend - bump him up again if he does that.

Kate, clarify please. Im guessing you mean bump him - meaning bump him into a more forward trot with your leg - not bump his head up by bumping the bit against his mouth...

I'd be a bit hesitant to bump the mouth on a horse who's had issues with mouth bruising before... especially when you're also suggesting retraining to give to the bit.

[katefarmer]

Sorry, that wasn't very clear! I did actually mean with the hand - but very gently. Basically, as I mentioned in the earlier post, just put both hands forward and let him bump into the bit. It's a very gentle process and won't hurt - it will be just not quite as comfortable as where his head is supposed to be. This is only if he's over bending - obviously - not if he's just stretching forwards!!

Pushing him forward with the leg may have the result of his head coming up - but it's a confusing signal. You wanted him to lift his head, not to go faster. I prefer to work directly with the bit of the horse I'm talking to, if you see what I mean! :-))

Cheers

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

[cvb]

I'm with Kate - I am most definitely talking about your classic "novice" outline when I say "long and low" not the head tween knees thing.

A horse relearning to go a different way has to relearn everything - balance and so on. You can guide - but he needs to find it.

One of the dangers with "long and low" (other than the overbent weird stuff going on in the neck stuff) is ending up on the forehand...

Whatever you are doing, it needs to be coming from the hind legs stepping through and under... I think, from what you have said, this is what you are aiming for.

But watch you don't have him pushing too far too soon - rev it up slowly ;)

If you need to ask for a little slower shorter step (but in a longer outline) at first, then fine. You may also find that changes within the gait will help here as well.

The "long rein game" is just that - its a trainign exercise and you can ride "normally" as well ;)


Hmm - just thinking about your second post where you said he was stamping his feet down a bit ? This may be related to the overbend ?

A wee "trick" that can sometimes work as well to get them to seek the contact a bit more - stroke/comb the reins in a rhythm....

[racipaci]

But watch you don't have him pushing too far too soon - rev it up slowly ;)



I think this may be a bit of my problem, I really noticed yesterday that my legs were always on him, I think from when I got hime he wouldn't go forward he needed more leg he now goes forward freely and I'm still using the same amount of leg. I try and keep a very light contact but maybe I'm using too much leg and the energy from the back end is too much making him unbalanced?, and as Kate said hence the reason for the extravagent trot.

the stamping of the legs in walk was very strange I couldn't work out why he was doing itbut maybe I had too much leg and too much hand and he was frustrated becuase he couldn't go anywhere??

[Tootsie4U]

Ok.

This is only for discussion sake on two different view points on how to re-train evasions.

Over bending is usually a mental hangup the horse has against hard hands or too strong bits - or even chlostrophobia (one case I knew of). In attempting to do away with mental hangups I've found that all you can do is help the horse find his own realization that he doesnt need that hang up anymore - things are going to be different.

I may not be understanding your point about pushing your hands forward so the horse bumps into himself, so I may be way off base here.

If you use an aid the horse already has a hang up about (pain from the bit - even if it is so light), how does that help him get over the hang up? You're still using what he's afraid of to help him be not afraid.

I like the very forward trot on the buckle to help this situation because even if the horse rushes, it doesnt matter. Im not re-training the gait, Im trying to help him through his hang up that no matter what he does, Im not going to hurt his mouth. One step at a time - you can always fix on the forehand and rushing later. I've been lucky though, I've never had these come about as a result of this technique. You are right, almost always at first, the horse throws his head up (and to tell the truth, I haven't schooled or reschooled very many horses in my life so this is limited experience) because he is confused, but it doesnt take them long to realize they can't physically carry on lenghtening with their head in the air. On their own accord, they *will* drop their head and stretch because *it feels good to them*. If you fight the urge to pull or tug their head around, they soon begin to trust your hands and once you have that trust, you can carry on increasing the contact because the horse has come to his own decision that he wont be put into an uncomfortable position.

Sorry racipaci for sort of hijacking, but this info. is still relative and maybe you can take parts of the discussion and tailor it to you and your horse. I'll be happy to make a new thread if you like. :)

[racipaci]

Don't worry Tootsie carry on. It's interesting even though I now think Dave is not really evading, just confused as to what I want and I know what to work on.

Hijack away :D

[Mehitabel]

petal overbends when she is stressed or tense - ask her to do something she finds hard and the chin tucks onto the chest and the strides get shorter and shorter and faster and faster. she's always done it, it's just her 'thing' when she is anxious.

i can't always push her out of it with legs, although she is getting better at reacting to just leg aids to push on - 'kick the head up' as an old instructor says.

sometimes i lift a hand up and forward, which lifts her head and then i can use my legs to get the rhythm back. i'd rather be nose pokey than overbent and behind the bit - easier to collect them int oa good shape than push them out of the chin-on-chest position.

[Tootsie4U]

Petal is anxious though, and not necessarily afraid of bit pressure. Suggesting she uncurl by enticing her head up with the reins is good in this case. Its so hard because so much of training depends on the individual personality of the horse. There's no cut and dry way of doing anything... :)

[cvb]

the stamping of the legs in walk was very strange I couldn't work out why he was doing itbut maybe I had too much leg and too much hand and he was frustrated becuase he couldn't go anywhere??

Ok - you need to find somewhere quiet without an audience to do this ;)

Get down on all fours and do a horse style walk. Just let your head be wherever it wants to.

Now - tuck your head down as if you are looking through your legs to what is behind you. Now try walking. What happens to your front "legs" ?? How does it affect your pace ?? ;)

[Tootsie4U]

She's so smart, isnt she! :D She's writing a book ya know :D:P

Awesome cvb!

[cvb]

Tootsie - I believe the "bump" Kate is suggesting is a passive one. i.e. you reposition your hand and the horse "finds" the bit. I'm a bit paranoid about my hands - so I'd probably go for "enticing" such a horse out first ;) and only try the bump if I had a good coach/mentor on the ground.

The stroke/comb can work that way - it works just like teasing a cat out of a hole :D And it also seems to release tension in the neck. Its like a little bit of magic when it happens...

Can take a brave rider tho' . On my first pony - a gymkhana star with no brakes :eek: - we were careering round an arena with me smoothly stroking the reins for a while with her stretching out - rarely at first and then more and more as she got confidence. She was more of a "head up" than "head in" type but I've done it since with other horses.

[cvb]

She's so smart, isnt she! :D She's writing a book ya know :D:P

Awesome cvb!

Trouble is its all derivative. I'm like a sponge - I soak up everything and then let it out drip by drip. To follow in our Galadriel's footsteps and become an author, I need to find something original to say !! :rolleyes:

[racipaci]

...

[racipaci]

Can't believe I actually just got down on all fours in my office and tried that!! I'm meant to be a respectable professional person! :D only did a few strides though as my office is not all that big! :D

However I get your point, it must have been becuase I was restricting his head or he was overbent. I shall definitely try everything we've talked about out tonight and see how he goes.

[cvb]

ROFL - yep you really need a quiet corner for stuff like that !! :D

[Kate F.]

Going back to Tootsie's point about the "evasion" of putting the head down to the knees - I guess the thing is I don't believe a horse "evades". To evade, a horse would have to know what the right thing is, and choose to do something else. This would require abstract thought, and there is no evidence a horse (or any other species other than humans) is capable this.

We must also bear in mind that what we consider "hard work" is only hard work to the horse if we make it so. The horse will always choose the most comfortable option available. Hence if we make the "evasion" uncomfortable, and the right thing comfortable the horse will choose the right thing every time. If we've made this the comfortable option, it is no longer hard work.

This is linked to the point I made about not doing too much at once. If you try to do to much, the horse will get sore and then it becomes hard work. Then you start getting into the horse looking for things that will stop the discomfort and "evasions".

By making putting his nose between his knees uncomfortable, you lead the horse to the right choice - to keep its head in the right position. By riding it forward on a loose rein so the head comes up, you've caused something to happen, but the horse is no nearer to understanding that going behind the bit is a bad idea and going on the bit is a good (and comfortable!!) idea. You've go the head up by a mechanical process - speeding up raises the head, not a mental one - the horse decides to raise its head

It is so important, and so hard to do, to stop asking when the horse is trying to offer the right thing. It is very easy to ride through the soft spot to a hard one by keeping on "fiddling" or "nagging" when the horse is doing the right thing. However, this is the way the horse will eventually learn real self carriage and confidence - so it is well worth us working on ourselves to get this feel and timing right.

Hope that makes it a bit clearer!

Cheers

Kate

[Dizzy]

I take it that OTTB means of the track TB, how long has he been of the track, and what schooling has he had. Apologies if I've missed the obvious :D

[galadriel]

I am fully in agreement with everything already posted :)

Want to add that when trying to ask a horse not to curl under, it may be easier to simply lift your hands. You don't necessarily have to "bump" (even gently); simply raising your hands can bring the horse back up & forward, and show him where you want him to be.

The horse tucks under to get away from the contact (because he doesn't know what the contact is for). If you maintain the contact by lifting your hands, and then bring him back up & forward again, it denies the ability to evade the contact that way. You show him what you do want, and that he can't avoid the contact by tucking under.

[Dizzy]

My friends mare is going through the same 'evasions' as Dave, at the moment. I don't actually ride her, but I do hack out with her, and the main thing that I notice with her is that she has absolutely no rythym in any gait - she dictates the speed that she travels in each gait (when hacking, we only walk and trot).

She can be nappy, so I tend to ride in the lead, but this mare is always looking to overtake, but when she does she then stops - at first I would go forward and give her a lead to follow, but as this happens all the time, and my mare does like to ride lead and gets abit cross at chopping and changing, I insisted that she either went up front or stayed behind.

What is helping her is to regulate the stride with the seat, when she rushes, completely relax and move slightly slower than her, so that the rider feels slugish to carry and its more comfy for her to catch the rider down and fall into a slower stride, and vica versa. If she feels the rider is asking with the rien, she'll either hollow above or curl behind the bit, if she feels pressured by legs she'll throw her head around, stamp and nap. So it can be very difficult sometimes to get the right response.

Its important to keep a straight contact with the reins, (elbow to mouth), and ride with shortish riens (give the arm forward, so that your arms accomodate the length of rien, and keep a soft, constant, contact) this enables the ability to give strong rien aids, or give the rien , without losing contact) by strong I don't mean yank, with riding short, closing your fingers is strong.

Lower legs on is very important, by on I mean in contact, not nagging, even when the horse is rushing, leg contact is important, if you take them off when they play up they associate legs with speed, so each time your leg is on it will run off it, our leg aids are what we want them to move off, not leg contact.

Breathing is very important, when things are going pear shaped, check that you are relaxed, is your seat relaxed?, are you gripping? whats your toes doing? are they clenched, is your weight falling into relaxed ankles and out of your heels.

Ignore headset and concentrate on forward and rythym. We need to teach horses to go forward in a balanced manner, we need to teach them to step forward using thier back legs, hollowing and tucking behind the bit though it classsed as an evasive action it is more than likely caused by either rider inbalance, confusion and horse inbalance and that we are in fact asking something that is not natural to them. Horses don't know what we want to teach them, and some of them like my mare have a very small 'willing to learn' catchment window - as a 4 to 5 yr old, I felt she was a total cow, she's now 8 and is willing to listen and try her best, so as her understanding grew so did her willingness to try.

Your horse has been a race horse for most of his life, so all of what you are asking is completely alien to him.

Did you work work him inhand before you rode him? Learning to trust you and understand your voice aids is a huge help for when you start to ride them.