Engagement / back up

[Jessey]

I have been going schooling with some friends a couple of times a week which is great. Last night one of the girls commented on Qaboos' back up, that when he does it he seems to start the movement with his inside hind first.
My question is, is this an indication that he is or is not engaging his back end properly?
I know it sounds silly but we have spent ages trying to improve his engagement but as I normally school alone I dont get the 'on the ground' point of view and just wondered if there was anything to it.

Any help appriciated

J

[cvb]

Jessey - whats his halt like ? And how are you cueing the rein back ?

Finally, does he do the same if you ask from the ground ?

I'm going to mull this one a bit, but might help to know above....

[cvb]

Mmmm - see http://www.artofriding.com/articles/reinback.html from the dressage side.

Are you expecting him to step back first with a front foot ? I'm thinking that to lift and take a front foot back, he has to shift his weight backwards - and the hind foot leading creates this naturally.....

But if all he is doing is moving a hind foot back without the weight shift, then his front feet are going to get "stuck".

This happened with one of the horses doing ground work at the Mark Rashid clinic.

Is this the right train of thought ? or not ?

[Jessey]

Well you see I was a little confused by the comment when it was first made. Its just that he starts the movement with the inside hind and all the others follow as should be but my friend thought they should start with a front foot first (and thats when I couldn't decide what was right :D )
His cue to back up is a lightening in the saddle and my centre of gravity slightly back of 'normal', I also pick up the weight of the reins for a moment but as soon as he gives I release. The halt cue is a deepening of my seat and stop 'riding' and taking the weight of the reins for a second (if need be).
He does back up OK and dosent get tense or anything but hes not very quick about it. I havent tried it from the ground and looked at that specifically but will tonight.

J

[Harry Hobbes]

Jessey,

A proper backup (at least in the Western disciplines) is when the horse's feet move back as diagonal pairs. In other words, the horse trots backwards (but at a walking speed; or faster for advanced horses).

Generally, when one foot moves at a time, it's because the horse is not engaging, and certainly not with energy.

Sounds to me like just doesn't have enough energy applied to his backup. Encourage/motivate more energy into the backup and he should trot backwards (at a walking speed).

One way to train this into any horse is to do the following:

1. Set up a linear course about twenty five feet long with a visually marked start point (a cone, flag, pole, etc.) and a marked stop point.

2. From the start point, trot the horse forward with lots of energy to the stop point. The horse should bolt forward at the trot to the stop point.

3. At the stop point, immediately stop riding forward, sink into your saddle and energetically ask for a backup. Do not try to "stop" your horse, delay, dwell, or dally at the stop point: just immediately ask for an energetic back up.

The horse will overshoot the stop point the first couple of times you do this drill. But ignore the overshoot and just follow through with the back up.

4. Energetically back the horse all the way back to the start point. (Whatever cues you use for backing up should be very energetic.) The horse should be encouraged to back up just as fast as possible.

5. When back at the start point, stop, relax and pet your horse. Wait five seconds then repeat 2 though 4 above.

After about the third or fourth repetition, the horse will anticipate stopping at the stop point, will stop there "on a dime" and immediately flow into the backup. His back ups will get true, straight and fast; and he will require lighter and lighter cueing as he gets better with backing up.

<Edit:> You will also find that with practice at this drill, the horse "sits down" when he stops at the stop point; which is exactly what the horse should do in any stop.

This particular drill also "fixes" horses that will not stop on a light cue.

Try it; but remember to use lots of energy going both forward and back; and of course, you must remain balanced in the saddle.

Best regards,
Harry

[Jessey]

OK, I have been to put them all to bed and had a double check from the ground about what my friend was saying. when backed up he starts with a back foot but only a fraction of a second before the diagonal front starts to move and it carries on like that. I guess its just off hind, near front, near hind, off front - instead of near front, off hind, off front, near hind (back foot has hardly left the ground before the front moves). Once hes going its just the same it just that he strikes of with a back foot rather than a front.

The back up is fairly fluid and whenever I stop I always back a pace or two but hes just not very quick about it, if I try to hurry him he just gets himself uptight and starts to fight so I figured that I should get it right slowly and ask for more speed as he feels comfortable with it, hes the same with spins and side passes.

I have been thinking about this and thought that if he struck off with a front foot that may indicate that he is too 'streched out' and needs to get his hocks under him to do the back up but if he starts with a hind it would suggest that his hocks are far enough under him to go straight into it, what do you think?

J

[Harry Hobbes]

...if I try to hurry him he just gets himself uptight and starts to fight so I figured that I should get it right slowly and ask for more speed as he feels comfortable with it, hes the same with spins and side passes. If he knows the movement, but he's reluctant/resistant when pushed (i.e., asked for more speed), then he's probably un-confident, and I'd address that directly and first. A lack of confidence is just not uncommon, and not a good thing to let sit and fester. (Waiting for it to go away is waiting, not acting; and waiting may just reinforce a lack of confidence.)

The way to [i]build confidence is to allow the horse to succeed in that which it is not confident with, so that it learns that it indeed can do <whatever> when and how you ask. This means that at some point the horse must be pushed "into new territory", so that it can overcome its lack of confidence. Never push it to new levels/things, and it will not learn confidence with those new levels/things.

Having said the above, the way that I would help him get over reluctance/resistance (e.g., from a lack of confidence) at performing at speed with a movement he knows is to ask for more speed and practice at speed. This means that I'd push for more energy and speed in the movements he knows, all the time working on his confidence (and letting the proper movement be a secondary priority).

I'd push him on the speed issue; but then I'm pretty comfortable asking any sound horse to do more; to "push the confidence envelope" so to speak. If you are uncomfortable pushing for more from the saddle, then the groundwork equivalent exercise is always a viable intermediate step (but only an intermediate step: he still needs to learn to backup carrying you).
I have been thinking about this and thought that if he struck off with a front foot that may indicate that he is too 'streched out' and needs to get his hocks under him to do the back up but if he starts with a hind it would suggest that his hocks are far enough under him to go straight into it, what do you think?If you get him backing fast, you will find that he is very rounded and his hindquarters/feet will be well up under him. He'll really be using his back and hindquarters. <Edit to add:> Which is the primary purpose of the exercise articulated above.

Having been in your situation (with the very same problem), I think that you ought to address the reluctance/resistance directly, first and foremost, as articulated above (or with some alternative exercise). I think that if you help him overcome this reluctance/resistance issue, the placement of his feet will pretty quickly resolve by itself.

Best regards,
Harry

[Jessey]

Thanks harry, He does round quite well with the back up, with no contact on his mouth he will always drop his head / flex at the poll, raise his back and drop his quarters but its that speed that elludes us. How would you get energy into the backup without force? I try hard not to 'get in his face' and keep my leg aids light when backing and use my seat / weight to cue it. Can you suggest any reading that would help?

Thanks again

J

[cvb]

Jessey

Something you said above reminded me of the Leslie Desmond clinic I audited last year.

She talked about horses needed to "lift" at the withers to free their front legs - but she also talked about how a lot of horses had lost their "connection"....

Easier to understand her saying it than me saying it second hand :rolleyes: but - when she worked on reinback from the ground with these horses, using pressure and release, you could see them becoming more "connected" and more "two time" in the reinback.

I remember doing my BHSAI some time ago and having the discussion about whether reinback was 2 or 4 time. Even when it appears 2 time, there is a fraction of a split on the diagonal.

But the difference in what leslie showed - from a definite 1....2...3....4 to 1-2...3-4 , was very clear.

What Harry has said seems very consistent with what Mark was saying at the recent clinic - about the balance of the horse and where it needs to be to ask for the reinback.

The "stuck" horse did a sort of "fake" shift of weight back. He sorted of swayed back but actually kept his weight forward. Whether you ask on the ground or from the saddle, the start is the weight movement. Thats why the exercises Harry suggests help -as they start you with the weight in the right position :D

Mark Rashid has a DVD due out soon - I suspect this will help... ;)

If I am riding Fi, when I get a nice soft light reinback, it cam be pretty quick. If I ask wrong, don't breathe, etc - it tends to be a bit ploddy and step by step. At the clinic, when we did walk-halt transitions, the cues all seemed to start with an exhale ("exhale on exertion"). This acts like a half-halt to the horse. They start to learn the pattern and the cue that follows gets lighter, and lighter, and lighter :D

[Jessey]

Thanks Cvb, I was looking at the Mark Rashid web site yesterday and was going to order the DVD asap, I read 'horses never lie' last week and thought it was really good (didn't even realise I had one of his books, I brought it a while back but never got round to reading it).

We do get the 1-2....3-4 in the back up theres only a fraction of a second between the diagonal pairs movement its just not like hes troting back he just walks it.

Maybe I expect too much from Qaboos, after all he is built a little differently to these QH's that I keep comparing him too :D
Hope to get over to David Deptfords for a lesson in the next week or two so will work on it with him.

J

[cvb]

Had a lesson with David some years ago. He has a very good teaching manner :D

[Jessey]

Lots of trainers dispaired with Qaboos (he used to be such a naughty boy!!) but David and his methods seem to work really well with him, I've just called and booked a lesson for the 5th march so cant wait.

J

[Harry Hobbes]

...but its that speed that elludes us. Understood. To get speed, you need to communicate that you want speed. How do you communicate to a horse? With pressure and release. That means lots of energy (which raises pressure) in your cues.
How would you get energy into the backup without force? I wouldn't use force; I'd use pressure (and release): While cueing hm back, I'd use both of my legs forward of the girth just behind his elbows, and I would "flap" them out and in rythymically with lots of energy and pressure on his barrel (just behind his elbows) to encourage him back. (This is key: I use the insides of my calves/feet, NOT the back of my calves/heels; that is, I do not turn my feet outward.) Initially, I would flap his barrel just as hard as I could (which is very hard to do if one does not turn one's feet outward.)

Initially, he may jump back in surprise, but that's okay because for any energetic backward movement, I would immediately cease "flapping" (the release) and pet him. If he jumped back two feet on the first try, then that (or any distance back) is great for the first try. Then I would repeat this and build upon the speed (and then distance) until he trots back with energy and speed.

Notice that I do not pull back on his face; rather, I encourage (pressure) him with my legs. As he learns to move back fast, you will find that you need less and less pressure with your legs, until you find that he is taking the cue only from your seat. (Remember that we cue: seat, legs, then hands; in that order.)
Can you suggest any reading that would help? Best I can recollect, none of the books in my library directly address the speed of the backup (although they address the basic "how to..." cue the backup). But some of Buck Brannaman's early videos demonstrate the basic technique. Parelli also demonstrates getting speed of backup in his Level 2 video. Perhaps that DVD you referenced above will demonstrate this (or a comparable) technique.
Maybe I expect too much from Qaboos, after all he is built a little differently to these QH's that I keep comparing him too I expect a lot more from Qaboos, even though I've never met him. If he's a full grown sound horse he can do this and more.

Best regards,
Harry

[Jessey]

Thanks harry, I gonna go get flappin' tonight :D

Initially, he may jump back in surprise,

Unfortunatly I doubt this very much, When I was first trying to get him to back up I was in a clinic with a very experianced horsewoman instructing, we tried all the usual, encourage but block forward movement things but he wouldn't buge, It got to the point the she had me spur (not something I liked much but she was very highly respected so I did as she said) him in the shoulders, she the started jumping up and down and shouting and flaping her arms in front of him - he never took a step back that day.
He has come on a long way since then (I'm sure this didn't help the rate of our improvement though) but just can't find info on improving the speed of these things and don't want to do anything else that may hinder us.

I expect a lot more from Qaboos, even though I've never met him. If he's a full grown sound horse he can do this and more.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I will assume he can from now on and then maybe he will :D Hopefully my lesson with David in two weeks will help alot (Qaboos always behaves impecably when we go there for a lesson and makes me look silly cause all the things I say we need to work on he will do perfectly first time :D )

Thanks again

J

[Jessey]

well I tried the flapping and he really didn't like that idea, he planted his feet and wouldn't move, even when I stopped and went back to my normal cue.
I then tried 'bouncing the reins' a bit and this did seem to help but it still isn't what I would call quick.
Have got my lesson tomorrow with David so am going to ask him to get on and show me how its done - we will see........

J

[cvb]

Jessey

don't want to boast but I was getting some REALLY fast (well for him) rein back out of my mum's Fell at the weekend.

The trick is....

you get someone to have a tractor across the field that is doing weird things, and then one of the other horses jumps the fence between the paddocks... :eek:

We had bucket loads of energy to play with ! :rolleyes:

Seriously tho'

Fi was off cos of osteopath visit on Thurs so I rode Duds. Ever since the clinic I had been practising the stuff Mark had me doing, but on Duds. And the result is amazing - soft horse, active, lifting his back...

Anyway - started just with walk-halt, added a little turn on forehand, then a little rein back. At first the rein back was still quite "sticky" - but over 3 sessions its improved a lot. He tended to do the "do I really have to" type rein back with jaw set. But I just asked for soft halt, now please stay soft, and now please take a step back... and its got better and better.

So then on Sunday we added in a little turn on hauches (a few steps back then around), and then... some sidepass !!!

He was so chuffed with himself :D and so energised by it he started doing reinback at speed :rolleyes:

We stopped on a good note before he got worried about it all. He;s so huggable :p (he's 17 and a slow learner, so gets very pleased with himself when he "gets" something).

[Jessey]

HeHe, I recon the tractor trick would do the job :D

I have got the back up pretty nice now, its at what I would call a good working walk but every time I try to hurry it up he just freezes in a kind of 'tooo much information at once' kind of thing.
I was really hoping to work on the speed of the back up and spins with David Deptford this weekend but it snowed again on saturday morning and I wasn't taking Qaboos out in the trailer in the snow so we postponed until next saturday.

I did notice the other day that Bo really isn't striding out apart from on grass, I wonder if his bare feet are a bit sore from something so hes just not stepping through as much as he could, farrier should be out this week so will see what he says.

Good to hear Duds has got the idea though :D

J