Rupert update - put him into the cart, not good :( - but some ridden progress :)

[Esther.D]

Well some of you know that I finally decided to put Rupert into the cart this week after significant (weeks) amounts of preparation pulling tyres, longreining etc etc I spent so long preparing as he can be spooky and flighty so wanted to make sure everything was ok before we went in the vehicle.

Even bought a full set of quick release fittings for the harness to ensure that everything could be easily released in the event of anything happening.

Well we put him into the vehicle and he was great, really, really steady. Didn't even flicker as we put him into it. So we stood there for a moment, touched him all over, wriggled the shafts etc and he was fine, totally unmoved.

So we fastened the traces and breeching. Still brilliant. Asked for a couple of steps forward and he was completely calm.

Should have stopped there but didn't :( (kicking myself :mad: ) Asked for a quiet walk a few yards down the track and he was still great (we had a lunge line on his bit and were walking at his head..doing everything completely correctly and by the book).

The track widens a few yards from the gate and since we knew he was fine pushing the shaft around we asked him to turn (well first I said no, we'll take him out here, but then he was so so settled and quiet and we knew he was ok with turning into pressure we asked for the turn :( ).

I have no idea what happened next, possibly the cart dropped into one of the small potholes/dips in the track and ran onto him (his breeching was not tight enough, which we knew, but this should not have been an issue on the flat) or possibly it was just because I stopped leading him and handed over to Stephen at that point (he had blinkers on so he could no longer see me as I was not directly at his head).

Anyway whatever the reason, he leapt forwards and off the track and tipped the vehicle :(

Luckily as we were doing everything by the book we had him on a lunge line so we still had hold of him and as he had had weeks of prior training he stopped and let me approach him to sort him out and as we had all the quick releases he was out of the vehicle in seconds as we just needed to pull two straps and release a clip and he was free.

Kicking ourselves big time as he was so quiet up to that point, we should have stopped earlier. But we did nothing that was not perfectly normal safe procedure :(

Anyway I am very pleased he stopped and let me release him - that is the makings of a good driving horse. But I am very cross that we now have a nervous pony to contend with who is spooky about the harness and cart :(

We tried to get him back in the vehicle but couldn't as he was so upset and flighty so I saddled him and rode him for a minute to try and finish on a good note.

You can see from this pic why we felt confident that he was settled enough in the shafts - he was so quiet...

[Esther.D]

Anyway we left him yesterday to calm down (the previous incident happened on friday) and then trotted him up and checked him over today and he was fine, not a bump on him and perfectly sound :)

However he was very jumpy (fine to catch still) and back to what he used to be like to tack up (spinning around when we tried to put his saddle on), but we persevered as I wanted to make him realise that we are ok and settle again.

we managed to tack him up and he let me mount fine which was good. He was very nappy and nervy but in the new saddle and bit we actually got one of our best ever schooling sessions despite the napping!

He was napping back to the gate and was jumpy and tense, BUT he was happy to trot without any resistance, and was responding to my leg AND taking a contact on the bit - We have never before managed all those together at once :eek:

So I am very pleased with him - he is a different pony in his new saddle and new bit (loose ring straight bar snaffle - identical to the liverpool mouthpiece that he liked).

We are going to carry on riding for a few weeks until he settles down a bit (he was still very nervy throughout the session today and started to panic when the ponies wondered away from the gate :( ) and then slowly restart introducing him to longreining, pulling the tyre etc again and see how we do - there is no necessity for him to drive if he is too nervous/unpredictable for it but we will give it another stab with the ground work and see how we feel once he has calmed down a bit. If this reaction was not caused by any physical happening - purely by his nerves coming through then he may not be suitable to drive if he still has that unpredictable streak underneath, but we will give it another try carefully and gently :)

[Esther.D]

So the driving is not good news..........BUT have you ever seen him looking like this under saddle before?

I am thrilled with his riding today :D

[Esther.D]

again

[Esther.D]

We had some little interesting moments...but we managed things like trotting over trotting poles without napping and messing about for the first time ever - because he was listening to my legs (something he has never previously really done) and not evading the bit..it did lead to some unplanned canter, but nothing major :rolleyes:

[chev]

What a shame - I'm gutted for you just reading it. :( He was doing so well too - and that pic of him in the harness - well he looks like he's driven for years there!

Fantastic that the ridden work's improved though. Maybe the driving has had an effect there?

Everything crossed that the driving does work out for you both... but even if he is just not the driving type, the ridden work looks like it's coming on a treat. :)

[Showjumper]

:( I'm so sorry it went wrong - he looks so chilled out in that first photo! But the riding - wow - he looks BRILLIANT! :D

[Esther.D]

Thanks you two, he just flipped instantly from totally calm to panicked and it is hard to made any judgements without knowing the cause - if it was physical (eg touched by the cart if it did drop into a dip etc) then we might well get his confidence back, but if it was purely his nerves, not caused by anything specific then driving may not be the discipline for him. At the moment I am just taking things slowly and we'll see what happens, initially we just need to get his confidence back and reduce the napping again and the caution about being tacked up - but I think that will just fade with time.

[JaniceH]

Oh Esther, you really didnt need that to happen :( . Was it the noise of the vehicle clunking into the hole maybe, as thats not something you can replicate with a tyre. Had you practised pulling down on the tug straps to prepare for the possibility of the shafts moving up and down slightly over an uneven road? I hope he is able to continue his driving training as he was doing so well and just looked so very relaxed and happy about it all. Mind you, if there is still the thought that he has driven before, perhaps something was jogged in his memory that made him panic?

[Esther.D]

Janice we have done everything under the sun with him, we have dragged not only a tyre but also a pallet and a load of metal chains plus the pallet and tyre were dragged via a swingle-tree which was attached with chains so he would be used to them rattling. The vehicle is on pneumatic tyres and made far less noise than either the pallet or the tyre, and certainly less than the chains. We had broomshanks in his tugs in advance wiggling and pushing all over the place and before we even attached the traces and breeching we lifted and dropped the shafts into his tugs, pulled the back band down and wiggled the shafts about and touched him all over just in ensure he was totally settled with everything. The vehicle did not make a noise, we certainly didn't hear anything - either something touched him (but that is odd because we had moved the cart around a lot when he was stood and he was fine and he has been longreined with traces, breeching etc dangling and was totally unphased by it all) - or he just ran out of nerve for some reason...... there is the possibility that a bad memory was triggered..he was certainly good to put-to which I would have expected to trigger something..but I suppose there could be some specific action that triggered a bad memory.

I was so determined to do this by the book I even bought Claire Wigmores 'breaking a horse to harness' dvd despite having broken a good number of driving horses and ponies in the past....but I watched that over twice just to make sure I had covered every angle and not forgotten to cover anything.

I am fairly sure he has driven before as when we brought the shafts up to him he backed straight between them - now that is something I never teach but is fairly common in the area he probably originally came from. I even have it on video (we had the video sat on the car bonnet!) that he backs up into the shafts unasked as soon as we approach. Unfortunately we were out of shot (typical) when it all went pear-shaped otherwise the answer to the mystery might have been on the video!

[Anth.P]

Ooh look at you with your fancy dan lack of snow! :eek: ;) :p

Sorry about the whole cart tipping episode, it really is a shame but I think you and Wupert will bounce back as he is obviously a cracking lad. :)

Glad you are making some progress with the riding too and hope the new saddle is working out well for you.

[Esther.D]

Poor Wupert is very shaken up by the whole experience :( Even today he was paranoid about people moving around behind him and was reduced to a jelly by his girth buckles rattling when I put his saddle on and nearly sat down when I touched his tail unexpectedly......he is a very sad little man at the moment :(

[JaniceH]

I thought that you probably had all the bases covered and more :( Perhaps harnessing up and walking on the straight doesnt have a memory connection for him, but it was the turning that happened just before he flipped out. Perhaps there is something in his past that happened when he turned, maybe the wheel caught on something and the cart getting stuck and causing him to panic or something. Perhaps Wally might have a better idea? Its such a shame, you had both come so far.

[Esther.D]

Wally and I have had a chat on the phone (ie I phoned her up and kicked myself at her for over an hour :o ) but couldn't really come up with anything specific - the trouble is that one minute he was fine, the next he wasn't..he pushed the shaft around with his shoulder fine, but then dropped down a little dip and that is when he went - however whether it was something that happened...as I said the breeching was too loose (breeching dee not in an ideal place for him - but as we were on the flat we didn't worry too much) so potentially the cart could have rolled forwards and touched him suddenly...or whether he just went for some other unknown reason we have no idea. He seems to have been left with a real fear of things and people behind him and things rattling, now I think the rattling thing is just because the vehicle tipped and clattered when it went over but the things behind him may have come from the tip-up or may have come from what happened to set him off, we don't know. :(

Fingers crossed we can get through this - I'm sure we will get through it ridden and handling no problem at all as he started to settle today, but whether we will get back in the vehicle, well we will have to see.

[Drummers mum]

I've been following your progress with Rupert avidly. Don't kick yourself, everything was going smoothly and it was logical to keep going, it may only have happened next time even if you had stopped!

Fingers cossed you come through and out the other side, I will keep watching! :)

[tazzle22]

really sorry to hear about the cart tipping over .......... you seem to have done EVERYTHING to prepare him ...........

I agree that as he backed into the shafts then he must have been there before .... it is not exactly something they do by accident :rolleyes:

So maybe the turn triggered something in his past as it certainly sounds as if he has regressed further than one might think with one short episode. It reminds me of Taz's occasional reaction to other people with whips ......... I ( and most people) can wave one around her with nooo problem since since we worked through the issue a few years back - yet on one occasion 2 years ago when one went up right in her face she bolted !

If it IS that deep maybe it will come to light after you have repeated the process. Fingers crossed it was a one off but you did it more than by thge book ............ so keep up the good work !

[KarinUS]

Oh what a bummer this had to happen! :( Good thing you were so prepared though (with the quick release things, etc.)

[Esther.D]

it certainly sounds as if he has regressed further than one might think with one short episode.

Thats the odd thing, I mean it could easily have just been a 'too far, too fast' thing but he seems extraordinarily shaken up by it. I have had ponies tip vehicles before fairly early in their training (never as early as this though :eek: ) and generally they are a bit twitchy next time they are near the vehicle/harnessed up but not normally so shaken by the whole experience as he has been. I didn't harness him up today or put him near the vehicle, I purposely rode him to give him something different as he was so shaken, yet he was still very shaken up and upset.

He did come to me with issues, and today he was more like he was when we first got him - the poor chap has had his confidence badly shaken by this. I can only think his lack of confidence and issues were deeper seated than we thought.

Wally and I discussed this on friday night and fully expected him to be back to normal by today, just a bit twitchy near the vehicle/in harness perhaps, not completely shaken up by the whole thing.

[tazzle22]

do you have any more access to his history ?

Given how he had been sooooo calm with all the other bits of introduction it does sound historical....... Reacting so bad to a turn as to tip the cart !

They never really forget a bad experience horses - more memory that a lot of folk credit them with !!!!!

Sounds like you have a bit of detective work to do Esther to get to the root of this and help the poor chap........ good luck.

[tazzle22]

I dont know if you have access to , or use, aromatic oils ......... but I have found them to be very effective in helping Taz .... both with her ovaries problem and to relax.

[cvb]

Esther - this might be a bit of an "off the wall" question... if you did the "drunken walk" thing at him like Mr Parelli does, how would he react ?

Just mulling whether in building in small logical steps - so there are no problems - does one then have to go back again and teach them how to deal with problems ??

[Esther.D]

Good question cvb, I don't think I have ever tried that with him, we have done it with Pablo and he just looked at us like we were nuts and was fine, but I don't remember trying it with Rupert. He is fine with all sorts of mad stuff like big flags flapping in his face etc but I am not sure how he would react to people doing that...in his current state of mind he would be terrified..but normally..ummm..trying to think whether we have done anything similar with him in the past...I suspect he would shy away and spook at me actually..that would be a good exercise to do with him, I can't think why we have done it with Pablo and not with Rupert :rolleyes:

You are thinking that he copes ok generally but doesn't cope well when things go pear-shaped?

I built in a bit of training to cope with most eventualities - such as rattles, bangs, flapping straps, shafts bumping him etc and he was fine in all the 'dry-runs' just not when whatever it was actually happened.

Could you explain further your 'off the wall' line of reasoning as I think I know what you mean and it sounds interesting........go on...

[Esther.D]

I am beginning to think that there are more to Rupert's issues than we thought. I believed I was just dealing with a pony with a limited education and very confused by this and then punished for doing 'wrong' when he didn't really know what 'right' was :( However I am now thinking his fear is deeper seated than that. When he came he was almost in a state of frozen watchfulness - except he would try and get you before you got him, so he would barge and bite...It took him well over a year before he would show any emotion to people other than anxiety and it wasn't until we got over that hurdle that he would even play with/groom another horse in the field. Now he grooms me and plays all the time with the ponies and is generally lovely to handle and never bites/barges/spins etc.

I am wondering after this whether either he has had some incident in the past or whether the issues are deeper seated than we thought - he honestly was terrified....not the usual Rupert 'drama queen' that he can turn on when he is feeling fizzy but real fear, very shakey and blowing hard when being handled, even yesterday when being tacked up for riding. Bless him though he still let us handle him and let me catch him and tried and come for a hug when he was scared. :(

[Mehitabel]

I am wondering after this whether either he has had some incident in the past or whether the issues are deeper seated than we thought - he honestly was terrified....not the usual Rupert 'drama queen' that he can turn on when he is feeling fizzy but real fear, very shakey and blowing hard when being handled, even yesterday when being tacked up for riding. Bless him though he still let us handle him and let me catch him and tried and come for a hug when he was scared. :(

poor chap. what a blow, when he's been coming on so well. still, it's really good that he still came to you in his moments of stress - that is a big hurdle sometimes.

[cvb]

Esther - I was thinking about something Pat says when he talks about us "whispering" around dressage horses....

I am no way suggesting you "whisper" around Rupert. But in presenting everything to him in bite size chunks that he can cope with, you have made it very easy for him to learn the "task" you set him. But have you helped him learn the "process" of working something out ?

I have a similar dilemma with Fi - that if I work on "despooking" her with a particular "thing" (cows, sheep, flappy things etc) - that works for the item involved, but is it actually helping her find a way to deal with her blind panic on the things I haven't gone through "despooking" with - the ones I can't predict ?

And if I go in and am just plain scarey - then what am I teaching her ? That I am scarey ?? :eek:

So what I am trying to do is find a way where what I am teaching is less "don't be scared of X" and more "if you are scared, this is what I want you to do" ;)

Its a subtle difference as some of the exercises may be very similar. But in some cases, rather than trying to make things easy for her - I'm not, I'm trying to take her out of her comfort zone but in a very controlled way.

Not sure I'm there yet, but I think its working slowly.

I was also wondering how you could use your Parelli work to help with the driving worries - but other than doing squeeze and so on near the cart, I'm stuck. Doesn't Alf drive ? Could she help ?

[Esther.D]

We did start some squeeze past the cart, both before we put him into it and afterwards when we were trying to settle him with it. But again - back to your problem - I can use the squeeze game etc to stop him spooking at the cart but what do I do when we are back in the cart and something goes wrong - after all even if he goes back in fine something is going to go wrong at some point in his driving career . This is what I am concerned about - being fine most of the time but not being able to cope with things going wrong.

[Mossy]

I am no driving bod but having read through the thread from start to finish I reckon there is something in that chap's history that says, "Been there done that and it is bad news"
This idea may be absolutely stupid but if you can get him tyre dragging again and to the point that he is ready to try in the shafts again could you lead him out complete with tyre alongside a steady neddy kitted up to drive, akin to teaching a pony to be sound in traffic. I know you would need a whole tribe of helpers but .... ?

[dophi_arno]

So sorry to hear that Esther :( . After all that work. Hopefully you'll get to the bottom of his issues, and I guess work nice and slowly (again) until he's confident once more. I'm lost when it comes to driving, but it sure seems like a lot of work, so I hope it will all pay off in the long run. Poor Rupert, give him a pat from Harashee and me! And on another note, he's looking very nice ridden! So I guess its not all bad news :)

[Lgd]

So frustrating when this sort of thing happens. I woul just go back to simple things in his comfort zone until he regains his confidence. May also be worth dosing him with some Rescue Remedy for a while to help him over the worst of his anxieties.

[Esther.D]

Mossy - not a stupid idea at all - I was thinking of getting him out along with someone like Mac (the nearest thing to totally bombproof that the horse world possesses) when he is in the cart, unfortunately I don't think we could manage that safely whilest dragging the tyre as we don't have enough people on the ground to ensure that if something did go wrong it didn't all go horribly wrong...However I could do it with him led/ridden..if I can persuade Mac to let someone else drive him (he has decided that now he qualifies for his bus pass only I am allowed to drive him at the moment..with anyone else he plants his feet:rolleyes: ). I am certainly planning on getting him out of the field to watch me tack up and put-to the shetlands when I drive them out. Just so that he can see them totally unmoved by being in the cart.

I wish he was smaller - Mac is the perfect nursemaid for nervous youngsters, I used to put them into the pair with him to gain confidence..but Mac is 9.3hh and Rupert is 13.1hh.... :D

He is going back to gentle riding in order to try and restore his confidence. Other than getting himself in a tizz when the others left the gate and being a bit nappier than normal it does not seem to have affected his riding in any negative way which is a relief. I am expecting the nappiness to wear off with time and gentle riding as he regains his confidence again.

[Casey76]

With your thoughts that Rupert has been driven before, I wonder if he's been in a driving accident and been badly hurt/frightened, and having the cart tip over at the weekend has brought it all back.

Poor wee man :(

[Esther.D]

It must have been something before the cart tipped - as it was his extreme reaction to *something* that made the cart tip in the first place...but certainly there seems to be more here than meets the eye. Poor Rupert, I do feel bad for him :(

[cvb]

Esther

Fi didn't like having ropes around her legs - so I deliberately worked on this. We still have to "revise" now and again but she's miles better.

I know you've done ten tonnes of preparatory work, but have you actually deliberately confined him (e.g. with ropes etc) - of course in safe way - so he can learn to relax and accept it ?

Saw something when I was searching web the other week of someone how long reined with plastic piping on the reins to mimic the shafts !

[Esther.D]

Yep, done all that cvb, also he is brilliant to load and travel in the trailer - so not claustrophobic. I can actually wrap him right up in ropes etc with no problem

[JaniceH]

I wouldnt leave it too long before you try longreining and things again though, or he might get used to the fact that driving = scary. Even if you tack him up for riding with his harness draped over the door or something, or just put on the saddle and breeching and take them straight back off again. Whats he like if he walks past the carriage? Have you just walked him in hand on the same path that he spooked at since it happened? Sort of revisiting the area but not tacked up at all, just on a leadrope, it might give you some suggestion as to what spooked him, but it could mean that he doesnt associate that path with something carriage related. If you go down the same path and he is obviously staring at something it might help.

[Esther.D]

We only have one route from the field Janice and that is where it happened and that is also where we rode yesterday :) He doesn't seem to have spooked at anything, or if he did it was not there yesterday. I did not notice any of the usual suspects on friday - such as deer or sheep exploding from the undergrowth at high speed :rolleyes:

If he walks past the carriage (we had it nearby when riding) he snorts and spooks, ditto with the harness...but at the moment it is ditto with his rug, saddle, people walking behind him etc etc etc as he is really jumpy.

I tried to get him back into the carriage on friday just to stand between the shafts for exactly this reason but he was far too scared for this to be safe or possible. He was very spooked with his blinkers on whenever anyone moved behind him...and terrified of his crupper and breeching being touched so I ended up taking it off and swapping it for riding tack to at least try and end on a good note.

[Esther.D]

Your suggestions are sensible however and I will get him back into harness soon even if just part of it as a token gesture to show it is not scarey.

I am waiting to see how he settles as I need to decide over the next few weeks or so whether he will be safe to drive and whether it is worth persuing or whether his reaction to the unexpected is too extreme and unpredictable to make a safe driving horse. I need to know whether this was a one-off random scare or whether his nerve could always go at crucial moments...

[Miriam]

Oh Esther I'm so sorry to hear all this. I do hope he settles soon. If you need a hand let me know. I'll come up.

[JaniceH]

He was very spooked with his blinkers on whenever anyone moved behind him...and terrified of his crupper and breeching being touched so I ended up taking it off and swapping it for riding tack to at least try and end on a good note.

Poor little man, I bet you just wanted to give him a big cuddle - what makes it so frustrating is that you can't pin it down to anything. If it was sheep, flappy things, pheasants jumping out, you could do something. You can't despook absolutely nothing.

whether his reaction to the unexpected is too extreme and unpredictable to make a safe driving horse.

This is the whole reason why I knew I would never be able to drive Ben safely. He had explosive moments, that came out of nowhere, with no warning and no provacation, and were REALLY explosive, and because they were impossible to predict and aimed AT people, I couldnt even let my children around him, so he was not going to make a family driving pony. However he was lovely on a lead rein with a confidence leader and would behave as though butter wouldnt melt in his mouth. :rolleyes: thats what he is doing now, that and doing his most favourite job in the whole world, babysitting foals in a field!

Even if he never drives again, you have both gained so much from all the preparation, and he looks so comfortable longreining and everything that you have done with him so far that it must cross over to the ridden work. After all at least he is big enough to still ride and have loads of fun with.

I wouldnt give up yet though.

[Esther.D]

I am in a total quandry at the moment, I will probably get some harness back on him just to illustrate a point at least...but whether he will drive or not I don't know, I will have to see how he settles down and have a think over the next few weeks. As I said earlier there is no necessity for him to drive and as you say he is still big enough to ride and have fun on so I am not devastated by this, after all he was bought as a riding pony and I have four other driving ponies to play with even if I don't drive him :)

His riding has come on a treat with all this work so it has certainly not been wasted - it has also located a bit he likes (until the liverpool I had not tried a straightbar) and now I have a saddle he is happy in too :)