Showing M&M Breeds Inhand [Archive] - New Rider Message Board

Chromelotus

22nd Feb 2005, 10:25 PM

Hi Everyone! :)

I was wondering if anyone here shows their ponies inhand or could point me in the direction of a message board where fanciers of Mountain and Moorland breeds discuss and advise on this topic?

I'd like to start showing my Welsh Moutain pony inhand this summer, he is a cracking little chap although a gelding which I understand don't tend to do as well as mares or stallions inhand.

Some friends at my yard suggested I went with them to Royal Windsor this year, thought its a *big* one I'd love to enter for the laugh and am sure it would be a great learning experience for me. I contacted the show committee and they told me that there aren't any qualifiers for the inhand m&m classes (you just enter and turn up on the day) and the Welshie class tends to be quite small so not too daunting. What do you guys think?

The main question I have is what the heck do I have to wear? I have a nice leather inhand bridle for my pony but am unsure of how I should dress. Rather smart I should imagine? I have been to a couple of M&M shows and noticed smart trousers and waist coats on most exhibitors but didn't look that closely at the time.

Anyway, enough babbling, thanks for reading thing! :)

shandy84

23rd Feb 2005, 08:19 AM

If you search for my thread "showing a new forest youngster" Es put sme really helpful links to pages that should help you with what to wear etc good luck and have fun

Mehitabel

23rd Feb 2005, 09:01 AM

royal windsor is a very big show for your first time. has the pony shown before?
the welsh classes haven't been that small the times i've been there! also even if there aren't many entrants, theyare all top quality ponies and mostly professional handlers - i think you'd be a bit out of your depth showing there for the first time.
my advice would be to go and watch this year, perhaps go as groom to your yard friends who are competing, and get to know what it's all about. then do a lot of local shows this year and aim for the bigger ones next year.

for showing tips, turnout, what happens etc, have a look at http://historicalfact.com/~es/horses/showing/

eventerbabe

23rd Feb 2005, 09:56 AM

welsh classes are HUGE even at my local shows. and if the pony has never been shown before you could blow his brains out taking him to such a big event.

i only do local level but i wear beige jods, long leather riding boots, hacking jacket with stock and my riding hat. most seem to wear that but check out the WPCS website, see if they have any more advice.

Chromelotus

23rd Feb 2005, 12:05 PM

Thanks for the advise! :) I purchased the pony with an extensive and successful show record, he's very much at home in the show ring. Its me who is totally new to it but I've shown dogs to a high level so I have a rough inkling...not so sure you can compare the two but I have a rough knowledge base!!! Thanks for the links! Much appreciated! :D

Kanuma

23rd Feb 2005, 12:10 PM

Cheko

23rd Feb 2005, 02:07 PM

I wish you luck with your pony if you do show him at Windsor. However, like others have said, I too dont think it's a good idea (if it's your 1st show) to go to such a high profile one as Windsor. The prestege of telling people that you took your pony to Windsor might be a great boost for your morale but please bear in mind what others have said about the entrants in the classes being professional. Almost everyone who shows there has had years of experience and knows every technique in the book to make even an 'every day' type pony look like the cream of his breed. Your pony may have an exemplary show record but that wont help in the ring if the person showing him lacks experience and technique. Even tho yours comes with a ready made show record, unless you are experienced at showing, it would be best to start at small local shows where you would probably stand a very good chance of winning. To win at a local show does far more for your esteem than to come 10th at a world famous show such as Winsor. If you still decide to go, I wish you luck.

kyanya

23rd Feb 2005, 02:32 PM

I would agree that for the nest start for you and your pony to showing, you'd be best trying a smaller-scale, local show.

Riding Clubs often have good shows to start off at. There are quite a few in the area. If it's not too far away, you might want to try Chalfonts Heights riding club. I believe there events are quite good. There website is http://www.chalfontheightsridingclub.org.uk/index.html if you want more info.

Chromelotus

23rd Feb 2005, 05:24 PM

try www.theshowring.co.uk

what section is he?? anyway for inhand you should wear a tweed jacket, shirt and tie, and trousers in a contrasting colour to the legs of the pony! (not jods).
im pretty sure the shows are explained on ES's site
oh and im going to echo ES and say that royal windsor is not a show to do as your first show, the M&M classes are NEVER small there! and it is one of the realy big shows that most people want to go to!!
try a RC show first!

Thank you so much for your advise and the link. He is a section A:
http://chromelotus.4t.com/images/Midget2.jpg
I'll have a good look through the links and thoroughly educate myself. I really just want to do this for the enjoyment and experience. I certainly don't expect to win, or even place, just want the experience of a big show! I do alot of inhand practise with my boy. He goes to the voice, carries himself and moves well. He halts and stands square on command etc.
It may well not be in my interest to jump in at the deep end! haha :p However, I just don't have any unrealistic expectations and even though winning is highly enjoyable I don't expect it or need it as a moral boost :) I will enjoy and adore my boy even if the judge states he looks like a donkey! :D I don't own a trailer and so will be getting a lift from a friend on my yard who is taking her Dartmoor (that's if I go to Windsor, I'm not so sure I should now!!) Until I have my own equine transport I'm only really at liberty to tag along with others going to shows. I kind of felt like it was worth going to a BIG show if I was going to go through the palava of it all but I think you guys are right! It would be rather embarassing to find myself out of my depth! Thanks once again for the advise from all of you! I need to find a mentor who is into Welshies who can help me out and guide me along!

Thanks for the info on the clothing! Amusingly my non-horsey father got me a riding 'outfit' for Christmas which made me cringe: an ultra posh tweed jacket and posh dark brown cords. He thought that was what we all wore around the yard when schooling and mucking out!! haha He's so sweet! The wonderful thing is, it turns out that it will be the perfect posh showing outfit, even the colour of the cords will contrast perfectly with my palomino pony! I now feel very grateful for my christmas gift and awfully sheepish to have had a private giggle at my dear old Dad's idea of what us equestrians wore on an everyday basis!

Mehitabel

23rd Feb 2005, 05:33 PM

he is a nice chap. but he won't look like that without professional production! there is a fine art to producing for the inhand ring, and it's not learnt in a day. if you want to do him justice then start smaller, and learn the craft so you can go out and do well at the big shows. the hacking jacket and cords sound perfect - with shirt and tie (not stock) and something on your head you will look fine.

Chromelotus

23rd Feb 2005, 05:37 PM

Is it unusual to hire a professional to help produce the pony, prepare for the show and perhaps even transport you to the show on the day?

Kanuma

23rd Feb 2005, 07:24 PM

its not unusual to have ponies proffesionaly produced, however many people do well with home produced stock and there are extra classes that only home produced stuff can do

Chromelotus

24th Feb 2005, 12:23 AM

Thanks for the info! Please excuse all these ignorant questions but what exactly are these tricks that the pros do to produce a horse for the show ring? (Perhaps these are trade secrets?! I don't know if I'm naughty asking but I'm intrigued!) Apart from bringing the animal into peak condition through exercise and excellent nutrition plus dedicated grooming, maintenance and conditioning etc. how can you improve on the appearance of a naturally healthy, meticulously groomed animal? Of course there are coat shine products, white markings can be chalked, mane's and tails can be neatened up and bleached to whiten them (in the case of palominos and greys and the like), the eye and muzzle area can be wiped with a smidge of vaseline.....etc.

What else do the pros do? Surely there is only so much you can do in terms of altering, shining and 'dolling up' the pony before it becomes cheating?

Mehitabel

24th Feb 2005, 09:39 AM

it's more about the
bringing the animal into peak condition through exercise and excellent nutrition plus dedicated grooming, maintenance and conditioning etc.

really. there's specific exercise, strapping, feeding regimes, practicing. i work at a showing yard, and we have liveries who often think that if they have a good horse, they can just take it to a show and win - it's not the case, especially at the higher levels. the competition is stiff, all the ponies in the ring are pretty much as good as yours, and it's the little things - coordinating your legs with the horse's as you run, smart transitions, a mane pulled to emphasise the neck, a tail cut to the right length to make the hind end look better, coordinating jacket with horse, noseband at just the right height, bridle of the right thickness etc. you have to make the judge go wow from the first time she sees you, keep drawing her eye back to you.

that kind of thing takes training and practice. we do a lot of practice at home with ours, teaching them to stand correctly without having to be pushed into place, ears pricked, moving off smartly, experiemnting with bridles, halters, mane and tail lengths, our turnout. it looks effortless on the day, but an awful lot of work goes into it. if you go with your friends to watch and help, you'll see the activity that goes on behind the scenes.

as for hiring professionals, there are professional grooms, but they will nornmally want ot come a few times beforehand and practice, show you how to do all the above in terms of presentation, and when a horse is professionally 'produced' then it normally goes and lives at the producer's yard.
your chap is nice, but all the others in the ring will be just as nice, and have the benefit of the professional producing and correct preparation and muscling, work etc.

Kanuma

24th Feb 2005, 10:36 AM

its bloody hard work to produce your own as well!! ive been doing it for nearly 10 years now and still dont know all the tricks! ive got 4 to show this season, and im doing HOYS qualifiers!! so far ive worked it out that im going to be spending upto 8 hours per day in the saddle (2hrs per horse) and anouther 6 grooming, mucking out etc the day before a show i dont ride at all, it is all spent getting them ready, they have a 30 min session on the lunge and are then bathed, groomed and trimmed to with in an inch of thier lives! and because i do mainly M&M's the trimming doesnt show that much, but if i didnt do it stan would look awful!
this is harvey at the first ever show i did with him (2 days after we bought him), we stood last in every class
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/kanuma/juu.jpg
this is harvey a year later
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/kanuma/harveyamy.jpg
and this is last year
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/kanuma/Copyofharvey.bmp
it takes time a patience to get it right!
i'll put some pics of stan before and after in the next post

Kanuma

24th Feb 2005, 10:42 AM

this is stan when i went to see him, they were at a show and again he stood last in most classes but i saw the potential
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/kanuma/stanfirstshow.jpg
stan 2 weeks after i bought him, a little improvement but some idiot had pulled his tail and i mean properly pulled it just before i went to pick him up!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/kanuma/stan2nd.jpg
and this is him last year (2 years of work into him)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/kanuma/stanchamp.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/kanuma/D220001.jpg

Chromelotus

24th Feb 2005, 04:59 PM

I can understand how it can be quite an involved task, I think as a novice ezhibitor I would certainly need professional guidance before facing a large show. I see little pleasure in sending a pony off to be produced however, I'd miss my boy too much and feel like I was being rather lazy getting someone else to do all the hard work. ;)

Kanuma

24th Feb 2005, 05:21 PM

the best way is to start at the little shows!
get as many books as you can, read them all, turnout to the best of your ability, then when you get to shows dont be afraid to ask people for help, it can be daunting but if they are not busy most people are happy to help (dont ask when they are about to go in the ring). watch as many of the county classes as you can, even if they arnt for your section, you pick up little bits and peices! always watch the people who come above you vital things can be learnt from them! watch, ask and practice!

i dont like haveing things proffesionaly produced either i feel like im cheating! the only time ive ever done it was the with stan for 2 months, he started rearing so i sent him to be schooled out of the habit (after id checked for all other reasons) i asked them to put particular emphasis on schooling for the showring! however i only did this because im in no possition to attempt it myself!

Chromelotus

24th Feb 2005, 05:51 PM

Thanks! Can anyone recommend any good books?

Kanuma

24th Feb 2005, 06:11 PM

Showing to Win by carolyn henderson and lynn russell
Showing by Jane Holderness-Roddam
Showing Secrets by Carolyn Henderson
Showing by robert oliver
and Showing M&M ponies, this one is very good, but as my sister has nicked it i dont know who wrote it

NoviceNic

24th Feb 2005, 08:44 PM

Kanuma

24th Feb 2005, 09:14 PM

nic showing used to be like that, but now it is not so bad!! infact, although im not very well known on the circuit i have beaten some of the big names! the judgeing panels come down very very hard on the judges if it is even suggested, however i wont deny that it doesnt happen!
dont be too skeptical! at my first ever show, knowing only the basics and haveing a dressage mum to help me i came away with 10 rossettes, 4 of which were 1sts and the rest 2nds or 3rds

Mehitabel

25th Feb 2005, 08:24 AM

echo kanuma - there has recently been quite a crackdownon that kind of thing. not saying it doesn't happen, but not as blatant as it has been in thre past. there are some judges who are known for being a bit 'facey' but they are in a minority and judges are getting braver these days.

eventerbabe

25th Feb 2005, 08:47 AM

i must admit i find the showing world the most unfriendly, no where near as nice as eventers. i only do local level but you get professionals turning up who make a big noise about everything and try to overshadow us little guys! most of the time i think the judges must be visually impared coz i've seen really scabby ponies win just coz their grandsire was so and so. but as long as my pony has behaved and had a nice day (and i've got a bit of a sun tan :D ) i'm never bothered about a rosette.

Kanuma

25th Feb 2005, 10:10 AM

eventerbabe, ive found that the bigger the show, the better the judge! local shows are the most facey of all, there is one show round us where if you dont know the comitte, you could turnup with a HOYS winner and still not win!

eventerbabe

25th Feb 2005, 10:33 AM

you are right, my friend does affiliated showing and the judges seem fine there, its just the local shows where you only win if you know someone who knows someone. i was watching the hunter class at oone of our locals. i knew one of the entrants and her horse was lame. she took it to the show anyway and won the class and was reserve horse champion! the horse was blatantly lame and despite a complaint nothing was done!

i'm dreaming of the day i can buy a registered welsh and do decent shows. out mare has no papers so we have to stick to unaffiliated local stuff :(

Chromelotus

25th Feb 2005, 11:28 AM

Chromelotus

25th Feb 2005, 11:44 AM

Chromelotus - If you show dogs you know how the judging works. 9 times out of 10 the trophy goes to the person who will then return the favour at the next show. :-(. Not sure what the Horse Shows are like but don't expect too much on your first outing. You will have to get your face known. Have fun anyway. Let us know how you get on, your little Welsh A is stunning. :)

Hmmmmmmm....I was going to mention this element but didn't want to offend anyone. Yup, there is certainly a very strong element of this in the dog showing world. All too often the final lineup has more to do with who is on the end of the lead than the dog on it. Bent judging is often very hard to contest as who is to say that it is not a case of sour eggs from the losers or their supporters, judging is subjective! I find this sort of thing despicable. I saw this happen at an M&M show show last year in a stallion class. There were several Stallions absolutely screaming quality and perfection and a group of us were all placing verbal bets on what the final lineup would be. I'm no top expert but I have a good eye for a horse and was with several far more experienced friends. The final lineup was utterly shocking, there were gasps all round the arena! It was clearly a case of the judge placing horses for his own personal agenda, not on the merit of the animals. What a pain in the arse for all the deserving people who spent months preparing their animals, hours grooming, got up at the crack of dawn and travelled god knows how many miles just for a huge waste of time.

Its interesting that you guys should mention that this sort of thing is seen mostly in small, local shows. This seems to make sense as larger shows are in a wider spectrum of the public eye and would come under heavier scrutiny if unfair judging occurred. This is another thing experience will help me with. In the canine showing world I know which judges to avoid like the plague!
;)

Kanuma

25th Feb 2005, 03:36 PM

in showing we do much the same, ive got a little red book with judges names in it, next to it there are 4 columns, what type did they like, did they like stan, where they fair, would i show under them again.
every time i get a schedule i check the judge as there is no point travelling 4 hours and paying £30 per class (some of the big qualifiers cost more) if it is a forgone conclusion that the judge wont place the pony ive got! if i dont like the judge i dont go, no matter how small or local the show, however if there is a qualifier with a judge that likes my ponies i can travel 7 hours for one class!!
there are judges that i avoid like the plague as well! then there are some that have little peculiarities, like i know of one very nice lady who jusdges the PUK stuff and NPS qualifiers as well, she always places stan ridden! always even if he goes like a pig! but she doesnt like him inhand and never places him!!

~Perdita.M~

25th Feb 2005, 03:42 PM

Good luck with showing him Chromelotus, I'm sure you'll both have fun which is all that matters reallly :) What breed of dogs do you show?

Chromelotus

25th Feb 2005, 05:23 PM

Good luck with showing him Chromelotus, I'm sure you'll both have fun which is all that matters reallly :) What breed of dogs do you show?

Thanks! I really look forward to showing my Welshie! I'm a Staffordshire Bull Terrier person! :)

Kanuma

25th Feb 2005, 05:29 PM

do you know anything about showing westhighland white dogs?? my brother doesnt like to show ponies, but has gotten interested in showing the dog!

Chromelotus

25th Feb 2005, 06:03 PM

West Highland Terriers? I've had no experience with the breed I'm afraid. Very cute though! I love all terriers. As with all things the best way to start is by joining breed clubs and talking to other fanciers. If you are new to a breed and already own a specimen you will want to ascertain asap whether the animal is pet or show quality and go from there. Start with small, local open shows and work up from there! Speaking to several trustworthy, honest judges and asking them to critique the dog's conformation, ring presence, quality etc. will give your brother a good idea of the plausibility of the dog's future career as a showdog!

Good luck to your brother! Hope he has fun with the dog! :)

Kanuma

25th Feb 2005, 06:15 PM

i was given our westie when our aunt emmigrated, apparently he is show quality and very very well bred, she used to use him for breeding and his puppies even from mediocre bitches were going for about £600.
i havent the faintest clue about the breeding though, ive been told its good but i dont know anything about it! its mainly Famecheck (or something like that) and on his pedigree certs we have practically all his ancestors are champs or european champs or some sort of champ. he is registered with the kennel club and weve had people try to use his breeding and pass it off as thier own dogs, so currently it has a block on it so no one can register him as the father of a litter unless we write to the kennel club first!
do you know of any website/messege boards that i can have a look on? i wouldnt have the faintest clue where to start or where to find schedules for dog shows (do they have schedules??)

~Perdita.M~

25th Feb 2005, 06:30 PM

Chromelotus

25th Feb 2005, 06:31 PM

Sounds fantastic! Yes there are show schedules that you can get hold of, have a word with some of the breed clubs to find out what shows are on, when and to pre-enter. Here are some good leads:

West Highland White Terrier Club David C McLean. Tel: 01875 813909
http://www.the-west-highland-white-terrier-club.org.uk/

Southern West Highland White Terrier Club Mr. J. Griffin Tel: 01562 777266
http://www.southernwesthighlandwhiteterrierclub.co.uk/

West Highland White Terrier Club Of England:
http://www.thewesthighlandwhiteterrierclubofengland.co.uk/

Westie message board:
http://www.westhighlandwhite.co.uk/index.php

Chromelotus

25th Feb 2005, 06:56 PM

Another doggy question if you will forgive me! :o How, when you go to view a litter, can you get an idea of what will be show quality?It must be so hard when they are that little, apart from checking the bite of the jaw etc is correct.

When they are tiny wrigglers in the whelping box it is very difficult to tell/choose a show quality animal! I like to look at litters when they are slightly older, around 6-12 weeks old. You get an eye for these things as I imagine you do when looking at and selecting quality foals! Even though its not always possible to ascertain exactly what sort of animal a very young pup will mature into you can get a very good idea. Of course you look for obvious conformational shortcomings that would be faulted by the breed standard and consider the the pup's temperament (a very shy, nervy pup may not have the best ring presence.) Although I believe a good dog can't be a bad colour (I'm an agility person at heart so choose health/athleticism/functionability over good looks in most cases) you can select a pup with flashy markings that will be noticed by the judge and avoid colours which are either unpopular with judges, washed out or faulty (for example, in Staffordshire Bull terriers black and tan or liver coloured dogs, light coloured eyes or noses, lack of pigmentation etc. would be considered faulty in the showring!) Of course the factors on your check list will depend entirely on the breed at hand! You wouldn't want an undershot Staffordshire Bull Terrier but if you are purchasing a Boxer or another brachycephalic breed you are most certainly going to expect an undershot jawset!

Of course the best way to get a good show dog is to approach a breeder with a very successful show line. If you are selecting a pup from an established line out of a top quality sire and dam, grandsire and granddam then you will be more likely to get a quality animal than if you buy a scatterbred pup out the Loot or Exchange and Mart (in which serious, responsible breeders do not tend to advertise!)

If you plan to breed or purchase a dog which you will eventually put out to stud (presuming it matures into an animal of exceptional quality) then do your homework and check the line thoroughly for any healthy problems. Sadly some very successful show lines have serious health problems associated with them as some unscupulous breeders/stud dog owners tend to brush these problems under the rug and keep them hush-hush in order to keep raking in the stud fees/selling pups! Before you know what the breed has established health problems due to the extensive influence of popular stud dog/bloodline. Its sad but it does happen!

~Perdita.M~

25th Feb 2005, 07:13 PM

Thank you so much Kris, that was very helpful :) Isn't this site wonderful! :D

Chromelotus

25th Feb 2005, 07:22 PM

My absolute pleasure! This board is great! :) Does anyone know if there is a message board specifically for Welshies?

Kanuma

25th Feb 2005, 09:02 PM

www.saddlesoap.co.uk
not specifically for welshies only but mainly for welshies and the other natives! if your on there say hi im on there too

Angiebabe

28th Feb 2005, 01:34 PM

Going back to what people have said about judges, I have also found some of the local shows the worst. One of our local riding clubs puts a line through your number if you're not a member - I'm sure it can't be right! Sure thing if you have a line thru you're at the wrong end of the line up!
Showing is very subjective and even with the written score sheets the judges can still put whoever they want at the top. I take my hat off to people who show all the time - I find it very frustrating and it takes so much hard work to prepare for.
At least with jumping you either knock it down/stop or you don't, its much clearer. With showing you really have to be able to take each day as it comes, although as previously mentioned you can shorten the odds by following judges round who you know like your pony. You really have to be dedicated though.
You should be OK with a Welsh they are all the flavour at the moment, at one of the shows near me, not county but similar, there were 46 in the M+M class - nearly all welsh but the judges seem to like the fact that they are flashy.
What I still can't understand is the fact that the ones that go round and put bucks in etc. beat the well behaved pony. Just can't get my head round that.
Best of luck.

Mehitabel

28th Feb 2005, 01:44 PM

it depends on the judge's priorities, angiebabe.

reemmber that in showing they are primarily looking at the horse as an example of the breed. some judges take the better example of the horse as the most important thing, others put more emphasis on performance.

so horse A might be such a good example opf the breed that even taking into account a buck, it is still better than the well-behaved horse B. judges vary as to what they will put up with. i know judges who will send you to the bottom for the slightest huff, and others for whom conformation is the A1 important thing. another reason to get a little black book of judges!

i always record what placing i get and with whom, who beat me and who i beat, so i know what each judge thinks of my pony.