Behavoiur - whats what

[Jessey]

We got a bit side tracked on another thread about Horses behaviour and our perceptions of what it is and what it acctually is.

The discussion started about lunging and if the horses see this as being sent away or told off, and then it went further to discuss if horses even know right from wrong.

My horse Qaboos will often 'play up', which involves niping, rearing, knee biting galloping round the other horses. Where I used to have him stabled the herd was stable and if he did this alot they would 'shun' him and he would not be allowed to join the group (I know some of you have already commented on this explaination but this for the moment this is what I'm going to call it)

Where I have my horses now I only have my 3 together, Qaboos is top dog, our old boy follows in second place and then theres my filly. Qaboos will still run and nip at the others, now not sure if this is exerting his authority (not a behaviour expert) but if the others join him and run round then he seems happier.
A couple of months back the weather was not so nice but I couldn't bring them in so I decided to open the doors to the indoor school so they could shelter (two sides of the school are in the field, main doors out side of field and a stable type door on each of the 'in the field' sides) The gang went investigating and suddenly Qaboos took off running (the other two were grazing by the back door) he did a lap of the field went in the side door and lept out of the back door, straight at the other two, they didn't budge so he did exactly the same thing again, soon all three were doing these laps but the old boy and filly got bored/tired so went back to grazing. Qaboos then started the whole thing again, this went on for over 1/2 an hour all told, starting and stoping. The filly and old boy eventually got really fed up with it so wandered off and ignored him, when he tried to start it all off again they really laid into him (kicking and biting) and wouldn't let him near them, even when he tried to wander up slowly they would 'see him off' again.
He just wanted to play, but he knows damn well that the old boy just can't anymore and the filly just couldn't keep up either.

Just an example of how my guys behave (oh, and he will do this with some people aswell, namley my OH who will always run cause hes a bit scared of him) As I say I'm no bahaviour expert so would like to hear your views of what this was all about, play or dominence?

Do horses understand good and bad (comfort and discomfort what ever you want to call it), do they have a boundrie between what is an acceptable behaviour and whats not?

J

[Mehitabel]

i don't think the situation you describe is 'naughty' or bad behaviour - it's horses playing at liberty.

we teach them what is acceptable behaviour, and they do know - otherwise we'd all have bargey, bitey horses who did whatever they fancied whenever they fancied it. so they do know what is acceptable and what isn't - *if they're taught*. i do know people who insist their horse is a devil, etc, but actually they've never given the horse clear and consistent messages on what is allowed and what isn't. that's not deliberate bad behaviour either!

but i do believe that they sometimes know what we want and just don't fancy it.
one of our school ponies knows perfectly well that the required response to 'walk on' isn't 'yank your head down and bugger off to the back of the ride' - yet sometimes, he does it. it's not always the rider - sometimes he will nanny round someone who is completely ineffectual, and sometimes a good rider who is not giving him the wrong signals won't be able to do anything with him.

[shandy84]

:D I was reading that thread fund it funny when someone said horses don't have enough brain to vbe naughty -.....made me wonder what they'd work Bramble gradually carefully pushing her door hinges off as, me I say bad behaviour

[Kate F.]

It's not a question of not having enough brain to be "naughty", it's having a brain that works in a different way. Horses are highly intelligent - much more intelligent than most people realize - but it's not human intelligence. Horses can feel, perceive, interpret and react to things we don't even notice. Their interaction with eachother is far more subtle and complex than we can ever quantify. But human type emotional manipulation - no. In a way, they're too smart and sensitive for that.

You may think pushing off door hinges is "bad" - but does the horse? Surely the horse is just amusing itself, or trying to find a way out of the box. That's not bad - it's following its instincts. For a horse a very basic instinct tells it to have as much space around it as possible, and to be in the herd.

Back to Raciapci's question on the other thread, no I don't think a horse is ever "naughty" in the human sense. Again, to be "naughty" you need to have a sense of "right" and "wrong" and deliberately do "wrong".

I work with a lot of problem horses who's owners tell me they are "naughty" - but when you start listening to the horse's side of it, it always has a good reason for behaving the way it does. The tough bit is then getting the owner to let go of the "naughty" concept and their own frustration with it and work with the actual problem - but once they see the results of taking it from the horse's viewpoint, they're generally convinced!

The horse always does the right thing from the horse's point of view. I found myself that when I learned to let go of the anthropomorphic ideas of "naughty", "bad" etc. etc. I could suddenly see a new level of the beauty and purity of the horse's mind, and far better ways to communicate with it.

Horses do not have "good and bad" or "acceptable and unacceptable" in a moral sense - they have a very finely tuned herd instinct and very well defined rules of the herd which all instinctively know and obey. These are not just about the heirarchy - it's also a dynamic process. For example, the strongest, fittest stallion gets the mares - so stallion fights (and gelding play as we see it in domestic herds) is all part of the herd dynamic. It's not "bad" or "naughty" - it's nature's way of preserving the species!

Cheers

Kate

[chev]

On ething you need to remember this that this situation isn't actually an entirely natural one. A herd of horses would normally consist of groups of foals and youngsters - colts generally form a band of their own at around twelve months old, and graze together. This means there's always a band of peers for a horse to play with - in a natural, wild situation there'd be a gang of Qabooses all hoolying around together.

He's not doing it because he knows the others can't keep up. He's doing it because that's what horses do. Horses will quite often practice their survival tactics - like running from danger. A horse that's failry high up in the ranks will check every now and then to make sure that if he says 'danger - run' teh others will. Hence the nipping, and driving them to run with him - he's making sure the herd, such as it is, still operates together when threatened (even in the absence of a threat). Young horses practice these behaviours even if they're not high up in the herd.... where we have them in domestic situations so there's only one baby that sometimes results in what looks like annoying behaviour to us.

My current herd consists of 6 ponies. One gelding, who is basically the herd stallion (cut late, and still hasn't quite sussed he's missing bits), one senior mare, who is now considered leader by the rest, three junior mares who are ranked below senior mare, and one colt, rising two.

If the herd is grazing at the far end of the field when I arrive, I can guarantee it'll be Gelfy (gelding) that heads up towards me first, til they all know it's me. Senior mare (Tally) goes back to the rest and rounds them up. When it's confirmed that it's me, she leaves the herd and joins Gelfy on his way up. The rest follow. Tally and Gelfy approach first, when they back off, then the rest of them come up according to rank. After I've been there a while, they go back to being a herd.... and that's when it gets really interesting!

Rhodri (colt) plays. He spars with Gelfy, who will tolerate him to an extent, and boot him when he's had enough. Rhodri plays with the mares too. He nips, he rounds them up, he plays games where he 'sees' danger and chases the mares away. The two lowest ranking mares go along with this for a while - until someone higher up in the herd has something better to do, and then they warn him off. Senior mare won't tolerate him at all. She'll groom him, and allow him to groom her, and she'll graze with him - but if he even thinks about playing stallions with her she gets rid sharpish. Second in command mare will tolerate his games to an extent - almost as if she's playing lead mare to his stallion - but only for a while, befor eshe goes back to her place in the herd again. These games all take the same kind of 'wind-up' form you describe, but they all have specific reasons for existing. It's survival.

If Gelfy was removed from the herd, Rhodri would be herd stallion. He'd know his job, and how to perform it, because he's practised it so many times in his games. If Tally left, Lili (second in command) would take over that role - again, she's practised it with her games with Rhodri. They're running through the behaviours they need to survive.

A horse that uses these behaviours with people isn't trying you out, or playing up, so much as testing your reactions withing the herd. If you take senior mare's approach, and refuse to tolerate rehearsals, he'll give it up and stay happily in his place - but he'll keep on rehearsing with other horses.

Qaboos is rehearsing. The old guy and the filly tolerate his rehearsal for as long as they feel the need, and then tell him to get lost - all is still well in the herd, no need to keep asking. Qaboos is a little uneasy with his role - geldings often are. He keeps pushing just to make sure of his role.

Someone else will probably now come along and tell me why that's all wrong.... but hey ho! :D

[Kate F.]

oops! messed up the quote - proper post below!

[Kate F.]

Someone else will probably now come along and tell me why that's all wrong.... but hey ho! :D

Certainly not me, Chev! You're spot on!

Only things I'd clarify would be a) colts do form a group at about 1 year old as you say, but are still within their original herd. They don't leave and make "batchelor bands" until 2 or 3. I think you meant that anyway. 2) When a horse tests the emergency drill and says "RUN!!!!" it's usually a "she" who gives the "RUN" command, while "he" drives the herd together - exactly as you say, with the nipping and chasing. In the real emergency, "he" (the herd stallion) would be at the back, driving the mares together and in the extreme emergency turning and fighting the predator while the lead mare takes the rest of the mares to safety.

Somehow I thought we'd agree on all this!

Cheers

Kate

[Jessey]

Ok I get that, But from my old boys point of view,
'Qaboos knows I can't run round, so why the hell does he keep on about it, I tell him when I've had enough but he's still at it' - so In the old boys eyes is he not 'Playing up' or is that just his given right to do as he pleases given his place in the herd?

(Oh and Qaboos was also cut late and has no idea that he was cut at all!)

J

[katefarmer]

Hard to say without seeing it, but from your description I'd interpret it like this. I wouldn't be too sure that Qaboos is the "herd stallion". Sounds to me like the old boy is - but that Qaboos, like any younger "stallion" is continually testing whether the old boy is still up to the job. You say old boy and the filly stay together - and they send Qaboos out of their space at the end, so that suggests she's old boy's mare and Qaboos doesn't have a mare. He's trying to win the mare - but hasn't succeeded yet. As Chev said, it's sort of rehearsing wild herd behaviour.

If they were stallions in the wild they would probably have a full stallion fight and one or the other would win, and the loser would leave the herd. However, we're talking about geldings in a small group, and a conflict between the "top stallion drives the other stallions out and gets the mares" and the "got to have a herd" instincts. A herd of 3 offers more protection than a herd of 2.

In old boy's eyes, Qaboos is just being a horse - and more specifically, a male horse, and old boy knows he will have to repeatedly put him in his place until one day Qaboos wins. You'll know when Qaboos has "taken the throne" because old boy will step sideways and backwards (diagonally away) out of Qaboos personal space. At the moment, I suspect Qaboos is giving old boy this step at the end of each exchange.

Does that fit the pattern?

Cheers

kate
www.harmony-project.net

[Yann]

Interestingly our horses live in a large mixed herd with quite a few young geldings in it. In comparison to the mares, who are generally more interested in the grass unless they're in season, they are always looning about and play fighting. The whole lot of them will go for a gallop round though periodically when the mood takes them, though whether that's actually initiated by a particular gender or age is hard to say.

When I first moved there they used to have a boss gelding in the herd who they all followed and could get the lot of them to gallop with him on command, he'd just nicker to them and off they'd go. He wasn't out and out alpha either, rarely pulled faces or charged anyone, but had total respect. The young geldings would often play fight with him quite spectacularly:)

Sadly the herd appears to be a lot more fragmented these days, there are dominant horses in it but no 'leaders'.

[Jessey]

I'm pretty sure Qaboos holds the alpha position, the old boy (Pheonix) always moves out of his space apart from when Qaboos is 'playing up' for ages then Pheonix gets fed up and sees him off. Qaboos is always the first one to the gate, and the other two dont even try coming near, Qaboos always picks which pile of hay he will eat from, he will often stand guard while the others lay down etc etc.
I think Qaboos is the Alpha but Pheonix is the passive leader. A while back we had another little pony in the field with them and he was quite scared of Qaboos, he would almost jump out of his way (they did play together aswell) but he would go to Pheonix when the play got a bit rough, as Jess does.

J

[cvb]

Jessey

Went to a really interesting lecture the other week by Debbie Marsden on Equine Behaviour. They have done research on which beahviours happen in relation to pecking order etc.

Knee-biting is one of the serious ones - its not mock fighting its the real thing :eek: In her example, she advised separately horses that were getting into that kind of fight.

I have a hand out from the lecture which is a brief summary - a sort of behaviour checklist - it may have a web link as well but I can't find anything on google right now.

[Jessey]

Qaboos used to get into the Knee-biteing with the other 'bully' in the herd, they'd both end up on their knees and then rear and box a bit and go back to knee biteing, this went on for months but there was no serious harm done and they did eventually settle down.
CVB - where on earth do you find the time to go to all these clinics and lectures? and where do you find out about them?
If you do find a web link I'd love to know because I find this facinating.

ta

J

[racipaci]

This is interesting, I wonder how you would find Dave's behaviour in the field.

I always assume he is the bottom of the herd, he stands away from them, gets out the way when they pin their ears back and basically keeps his distance from everyone when they tell him to, he is reluctant to go in the field when others are by the gate and is generally bossed around by them all.

However he is also very, what I would call "playfull" he always has nips and bites on him, he is always trying to play with others, occassionaly bites them on their knees as described above, rears and boxes with them. When I first got him he chased the head of the herd round the field biting his bum until he kicked him in the knee joint (that's another story)

So what is he? bottom of the herd and trying to challenge to be the head? or just trying to play? I used to think he just didn't understand how to be with other horses as he bites and nips and annoys to the point where the other horse kicks or bites him in retaliation.

Edited to say: by the way Kate I was reading your site earlier, Harmony looked like such a beautiful horse, it was very sad that you had to lose her so early on, it must have been very hard for you.

[Jessey]

Oh thought of another situation Qaboos got himself into that interestes me.
We moved yards (to where my old loan horse was) and he was introduced 1 by one to the gang (5 other horses, 1 of which we knew disliked him before) First was a low ranking mare who he immediatly tried to mount, then my old loan horse who Bo chased round, then the top mare again he tried to mount, then 2nd ranking gelding (who was a stud for a long time and the one who disliked Bo) these two went hammer and tongs at at so we introduced to alpha gelding who split things up for a while.
But Bo would constantly harass all of them, the whole herd would turn on him, chase him into the corner and kick ten barrels out of him, after one of these kickings we counted 54 fresh cuts and grazes on Bo.
He lived with this lot for quite a while, eventually he learnt not to go into corners although we would still see him being chased by them all often.
(this was just before we moved to the yard where he did all the knee biting and where we are now with just the 3 of them).

It sounds to me like Dave has formed his own 'batcholor band' on his own and tries to win the herd sometimes - what does everybody else think?

J

[cvb]

Racipaci - I'd have to get my checklist out ;)

There's a whole list of characteristics to check, to get a view on whether it is confident aggression or pain etc.

The research was done on what behaviour you say, and whether the horse was higher or lower in pecking order. So it is "statistically" more likely - but not necessarily "fact" if you see what I mean.

Jessey - cos I live in a different country to my house :rolleyes: I am living at home hence have no OH (or kids come to that) to run after, no cleaning (other than stables :D), no shopping, cooking, washing, ironing... and on a weekday I don't even have to cook ! I also have no life :rolleyes:

and added to that, the lecture was at 8pm :D The clinic was Thurs-Sat so was 2 days of my precious hols - but worth it :D

[Jessey]

But where do you find out about these things?

J

[cvb]

its sort of like a snowball. One you go to one thing, you suddenly find you hear about more :D

Lecture was at our Vets - they do them now and then. Get them sponsored and then donations to attend go to an appropriate charity. I think this is a great idea - acts to educate "their" owners, show cases the practice, and so on.

Clinics are either WES or "Centaur Clinics". I'm now on the email list for both ;) plus getting as involved as I can, where I can. e.g. we now have a "working group" on developing western riding in Scotland. No funds and bog all resources, but who knows what we might manage to do :p

Also, when you go to clinics, there are often flyers for other events. e.g. at Marks clinic there were also flyers for Peggy Cummins (via Centaur) as well as Steve Halfpenny (on west coast at Ardfern I think).

By the way, there's a good chance we'll have Ray Hunt up here this autumn :D I'll probably audit this one and save my pennies for Mark's next visit (also this autumn). So if some of you guys fancy a visit north.....

[Jessey]

OOOOOHHHHHHH!!!!!!! I'd love to do mark's clinic, I looked on the web site but must have missed that one. Gonna have to do some reaserch and see whats on when/where etc.

Oh, and just found this which I thought made for interesteing reading:
http://www.kersur.net/~santa/difficulthorse.htm

J

[cvb]

Jessey, this is Centaur's list

http://www.centaurclinics.org/#Clinics2004

The "autumn" clinic is not up there yet but he DID say he'd be back...

I also signed up for the newsletter off Mark's site - and was somewhat tempted by the prospect of goinbg over there for a clinic.... but I think I can either afford that or a saddle, and a saddle is the priority right now.

[Kate F.]

So what is he? bottom of the herd and trying to challenge to be the head? or just trying to play? I used to think he just didn't understand how to be with other horses as he bites and nips and annoys to the point where the other horse kicks or bites him in retaliation.


Edited to say: by the way Kate I was reading your site earlier, Harmony looked like such a beautiful horse, it was very sad that you had to lose her so early on, it must have been very hard for you.

It sounds as though Dave is at the bottom or close to it. The challenge doesn't have to be to become the leader - no horse wants to be last in the herd - but that's not to say they will challenge the leader. Out of 10, of your horse is number 10, he will most likely challenge number 8 or 9.

Yes - losing Harmony was terrible - but things are getting back to normal now. I'd heard of grass sickness before - but couldn't believe it happening here and to me!

As far as Qaboos goes, I still think he's not really the "herd stallion" as if he were, the others would ALWAYS move out of his space, and would never be able to push him away - especially after an arguement. It sounds like a bit of a mixture of behaviours - as I say - very difficult to say without seeing it. I'd be interested in HOW old boy gives ground to him most of the time. I suspect it's more of an "I don't want to fight right now - but I will if you push me" rather than actually deferring to Qaboos as a higher ranking horse. However, impossible to say without seeing it!

Cheers

Kate

[chev]

Qaboos and your old boy sound a lot like my senior mare and the second in command.Lili was definitely herd leader before Tally arrived - she's not aggressive in any way, but she would take them to the day's grazing spot, when she lay down, they'd all lie down, and they deferred to her in most situations. Then Tally arrived. Tally is older than Lili, but doesn't know the herd, or the field, as well. First two days, Lili sent Tally away, no messing. By day 3, Tally was part of the herd. By day 4, Tally was starting to push Lili around. Day 5, and Lili was no longer in charge of decisions - Tally was.

Every now and then Lili will involve Tally in one of her 'games'. She'll start bossing Tally around, push her off the haylage, generally throw her weight around a little. Tally goes along with this - she'll actually back off the haylage and deferr to Lili. Until, that is, Tally actually wants to eat - and then she just marches in and flicks an ear at Lili - and Lili's gone.

It makes me think of kids playing grown-ups - mine all do it. They're Teacher, or whatever, and I'm pupil - I go along with it because this is how kids learn to be grown ups.... but when I actually need to get something done - well, game's over, and they do as I ask. Tally is without doubt in charge of decisions now - but she gives Lili just enough slack to try out making decisions. But it only goes so far - when Tally wants to get on with things, she puts Lili right back in her place.

[Kate F.]

Interesting point, Chev.

I'd got hung up on "old boy" and Qaboos showing stallion traits, but actually, a lot of what's described is, as you say, more mare type behaviour - especially the putting up with things and even going along with them to a point, then the one who is actually senior says "game over" and everyone snaps back into line. I see the same in our herd. The lead mare is very easy going most of the time, and certainly non agressive, but when she wants to "put her hoof down", she certainly does - and everyone listens!

The nipping, knee biting etc. from Qaboos is very typical stallion behaviour - but as you say, the way they're sorting out the order is more mare-style!

Perhaps some geldings are "more in touch with their feminine side!" :D

Kate

[cvb]

Well I brought the crib-sheet in with me today. No website link - but there is a phone number as Debbie provides "professional assistance" on equine behaviour.

She distinguishes between the types of behaviour you would associate with

- pain/fear/physical problems
and
- confident disobedience

(her names not mine).

Her lecture covers this in much more detail so talks about the difference between play fighting and real fighting (where the knee biting thing comes in).

She's based in Edinburgh - not sure how far afield she goes ?

[Jessey]

I'm going to watch the old boy (phoenix) over the weekend and see exactly how he moves out of Qaboos way or if he just lets Bo go there. Thinking about what you are saying about Bo maybe not being in charge and was thinking about Jess, almost since day 1 she will rarely get out of his space, she was laid down one day and Bo came over and bit her several times and she didn't do anything more than lift her head. Also noticed the other day (she has come into season) Bo was nipping and nuzzling at the back of her back legs, she kind of backed into him a bit and he seemed to like the idea ;) and with little warning she let loose with both barrels, Bo was quick enough to turn a bit and got one in the gut and the other in the stifle area (boy did he scream) but she never moved out of his way.

OK so I think I am proving that I really know nothing about all this - can you guys suggest some good reading that would be really indepth?

J

[cvb]

Hmm - I posted this before with another thread, but now can't find the thread so wondering if it was in Cafe and got deleted ? ANyway

http://www.gla.ac.uk/external/EBF/booklist.html which is part of the "Equine Behaviour Forum" site at http://www.gla.ac.uk/external/EBF/

[chev]

One of the first books I read was The Horse's Mind, by Lucy Rees. It's really fascinating stuff - talks about herd dynamics, each horse's role within the herd, environmental factors, body language and all sorts. Definitely worth a look.

[Kate F.]

Well, I guess I'd be stupid not to recommend my own book - "The Harmony Project - Year 1 - Basic Instincts, Basic Training" - available from Amazon.co.uk There's fair bit on herd behaviour - and lots on how the exercises we do on the ground relate to herd behaviour.

Also, one of my favourites is Stephen Budiansky's "The Nature of Horses" - a bit technical, but excellent on the evolutionary side and how horses came to be the way they are. It's also on amazon.

Cheers

Kate

[Jessey]

Thanks for all your help guys, I'm gonna go amazon shopping tonight!