another behaviour query

[floppy]

today i was doing some parelli with my horse. I attended a course in november for 3 days to learn how to do it. I do it every so often with her

Now, my mare is very dominant..small but dominant! and im trying to be the one up on her but im too nice :rolleyes: :(

She does everything you ask her, but if she doesnt react properly and i am a bit more forceful to get a faster reaction then she responds but lifts her head up and down and when she stops she starts pawing at the ground. she does this once, then you can repeat the exercise again and she does it properly without the silliness.

But this pawing of the ground is something new and im not quite sure on how to react to this pawing....i mean in the sense of does this pawing mean she is going to ''charge'' in my direction? or Rear?

My horse takes a bit more for her to react to things and my trainer showed me that if she didnt walk backwards away from me in the usual manner in the yoyo manner then i should make myself look big and walk forcefully in her direction and if she stilll doesnt budge then i should tap my whip infront of her until she moves and then stop with the whip and encourage her to keep walking backwards. Usually works but if you really get on nerves to play by your rules then she will do a mini rear infront of you.

She know sin a way that she can intimidate me and i find it hard sometimes and really appreciate when my trainer is in the area to help me. He just gives that extra support in me being more dominant.

Once i was finished i let her free gave her a little treat and she stood by me for a while then went off farting and bucking.

Any one got any tips or ideas or a similar experience with a dominant mare?

Once we get past the stupidness she rarely repeats it and does what you request. but she always has to have her say..still love her htough!

[Yann]

I'm not up on the finer points of Parelli, but it sounds very much like she's arguing with you. Pawing the ground is a sign of impatience or agitation, Rio does it sometimes out on hacks when I ask her to stand still:D

The only solution as far as I can see is to convince her you mean it, hard as that may be, especially if she's throwing those mini rears at you. It might be an idea to change tack and do something else rather than just keep building up to a fight and try and get the message into her head differently. I don't know if you have anywhere suitable or whether it has a place in Parelli but sending her away round an area and then controlling her direction repeatedly (essentially a join up) might be worth a try before persevering with the backing. If she ups the ante and you back off then it will confirm that she's the boss, and they're bigger and stronger than we are, even the little ones:)

[Bebe]

It sounds like she is challenging you, but if your dominant mare is half as clever as my dominant mare is it could well be because she's bored rigid.

Bebe learnt the 7 games incredibly quickly but soon got fed up of them. To start with she would respond quickly from the lightest of pressures but after a point she got fed up and just got slower and slower to react. At this point I got fed up too, backed off with doing the games so much and her reactions quickened again.

I do still do groundwork with her, though not specifically Parelli anymore, as it makes a big difference in her general manners but I now incorporate clicker training and she really enjoys her sessions and gets sharper off the aids the more I do them, not the other way around.

Head waving, especially if she's in your space, is classic behaviour for my dominant mare. She doesn't use it on me but it gets great results when she does it to my OH.

[cvb]

I've either seen a post on this, or heard someone ask it at a course...

I think its generally "attention seeking" and the idea is that you take little notice of it and just ask for the next thing.

in other words it could be Elja (sp ?)'s way of saying "hey ! you're trying to chance the order of things around here and I'm not sure I approve !".

Of course its difficult to tell w/o seeing it.

[angelfben]

Pawing at the ground can be a sign of irritation or frustration, but it can also just be a sign of boredom i.e. 'fidgeting' when I went to see Gem on Sunday she would paw at the ground when she was standing around or waiting to be brought out of her stable, I wouldn't class her behaviour as naughty because she was really just fidgeting, pawing the ground, nibbling at her lead rope etc. - much like a child who is made to stand around probably won't stand still! :p Gem's only a baby though (3 in April) if the pawing becomes more exaggerated or she was using it in situations other than just because she was standing around a little bored as she grows up I would probably correct it before it became a learned habit - e.g. you will sometimes see horses/ponies pawing the ground as a form of 'begging' for food and unfortunately much like most habits that appear 'cute' at first it can become irritating at least and dangerous at worst- for example excessive pawing on a concrete surface can wear shoes unevenly and damage hooves and there is always the risk of being 'pawed' yourself if the horse doesn't feel they are getting a good enough reaction from just pawing the ground!

I wouldn't worry too much about your mares behaviour, it sounds like shes more than likely just doing it as a sign of defiance and irritation at being made to do something she was hoping to get away with avoiding! ;) She should begin to stop behaving like this as you progress with her training and she learns you are dominant and mini tantrums aren't going to help her cause.

Good luck and all the best :)

[floppy]

Thanks everyone. the parelli bit i only do once in while. and when i do it it doesnt take long, when she does it right the first time i move onto the next phase.

she also doesnt beg for food. and never paws at the ground except today and about 3 weeks ago when i last did the parelli.

She is very food orientated if i work without a small treat she plays up from the start. If i give her every so often a treat it keeps her interested. (of course only when she does it good) she repsonds alot quicker too if you rewards her with a treat for her good behaviour and you can slowly wean her off the treats and she carries on being good and doesnt notice than she isnt gettign any treats.

Yann.

I have tried join up on the course. it didnt work with me so my trainer had a go and it went on for an hour or so.

In the beginning she runs around you and occasionally bucks out in your direction...once you have stopped this behaviour you can send her out and she comes back in and stops by you, then you reach out to reward her and midway through talking to her and stroking her she runs off again. :rolleyes: When you get her to the point when she follows you, she only does this briefly and then runs off again. but the whole time she is licking and chewing.

Even going out riding she use to do it no problems but now she is napping again and that i have put down to a friend of mine that decided all horses needed to have vitamin treats everyday, this action i have stopped and its slowly getting better. Elja gets worried if she thinks she is missing out on something, especially food.

Being dominant is also not easy :(

[vyvyen]

Hi Floppy,

I too have a ground pawing just turned 3yo little bugger! I've started calling him Mr Arrogance. I have absolutely spoiled him rotten, so I only have myself to blame. I am going to get back on track with his training again and will send him off to be started "naturally" shortly - he needs it.

[floppy]

I wouldnt say elja is spoilt. i mean the treat she gets ist a tiny piece of carrot. I only use carrots in her training..use to use Oats as a ''speical'' treat but it makes her fart :o other than that she gets the odd treat once in a while for doing nothing. Because i dont want a horse that permanetly hangs around my pockets or permanetly searches me up and down for food.

Elja is 11. but being an icelandic i guess in way she is the equivalent to a 6yr old. but this ground pawing only comes when she is peed off with me, there is a difference in it from begging, seeking attention etc. but when she stands infront of me pawing at the ground looking alert i see an anrgy bull standing infront of me instead of a my Elja.

Like i said, she never does this normally, and does it only when i show more dominance.

[Tootsie4U]

I may have missed it but *I* need it put more bluntly for me to understand. :D Silly Tootsie.

Anyway, you ask for her to Yo-yo back and she paws? How far up the 'phase scale' do you get before she'll rear at you? Does she do any other signs of being argumentative - such as tail swishing, head tossing, nipping?

From what I understand, I agree with cvb. It could be her condition response - she knows if she does this, you'll back down.

Whatever it is, remember; you're asking for a task and you dont release your request until you get what you've asked for. If she does begin to paw, dont give in, keep asking, increasing the energy if you must, ignore the pawing, and only ONLY release the energy and space to her at the slightest shift backwards. If and when you ignore the pawing it'll tell Elja that the behavior gets her nothing - its not what floppy mum's looking for. In time she'll realize on her own its less worry on her part to just do as she's asked.

[floppy]

Phase scale i do not know.

The only thing up until now that she does when im more forceful she walks back nodding her head and then once she is at the end of the line away from me she then starts the pawing.

Normally i dont have to vibrate the rope much at all. But every so often she tries me out and you can wiggle the rope as much as you like and she will just lift her head up and look at you. She will run backwards away from me if im forceful and ''mean'' to her. and one just has to repeat it a few times until she obeys peacefully.

The pawing of the ground is something new and she does it as a result of me being more dominant.

I know she is testing me and trying me out.

Tootsie you said ''In time she'll realize on her own its less worry on her part to just do as she's asked.''

That is exactly what my trainer says to me, but we both know that she makes everything more difficult and harder for herself before she will give in.

[floppy]

the other day i let her onto another field for her to have a good run. She stood there and looked at me and starting pawing on the ground.its just the fact of how alert she looks when she does this. When im riding her she can mess me aroudn as much as she likes, i dont have a problem with it..andi always win. Its just when im on the ground that i have a problem with it because she doesnt respect my space properly, so if i have a discussion with her and try and send her away she will pose a threat to me before running off in a tantrum

[Tootsie4U]

Your phases are your increases in energy or "meanness" (as you put it). For example with the yo-you game - Phase 1 would be giving her the cue (raising your finger or whatever you've been using). Phase 2 is wiggling your rope. Phase 3 might be stepping toward her and wiggling the rope. Phase 4, from what I read, is you tapping her shoulder. Phase 1-3 are requests, Phase 4 is a demand. Think of it that way when using them with Elja. When you use Phase 4 she MUST yo-yo back!

I think I understand a bit better now. So, she'll yo-yo if she wants to. If she doesn't - she just raises her head to evade the wiggling rope. If you make an issue of it, she'll run back but then she lets you know she didnt appreciate it by pawing. Yes?

Ok then. Decrease the amount of steps. Get only one VERY VERY good step at first - dont bother sending her all the way to the end of the rope. Quality, not quantity. Practice at getting this very good step by only doing Phase 1. You can be assured that if she can manage this, she's becoming accepting of this exercise, rather than just complying with it (which she is doing now - she feels she's being made to do it and she doesnt like it). Once you and she have mastered this, now ask for two very good steps, later three, and so on.

This will be a greater reward for her - thus making it more fun and she wont be so resentful of it.

Raising the head, going backwards at an angle, stepping back slowly, taking too long to respond - those are all signs of evasion.

And remember, Phase 3 and 4 should be portrayed very seriously. When you use Phase 4, be prepared to push the issue. If you dont get her to respond immediately, she'll interpret it as a threat and that wont make your life easy!

[Tootsie4U]

Pawing - its as simple as this.

If it makes you feel threatened, its probably a threat. Parelli tells you to trust your instincts.

So, bottom line, dont allow her to do it.

With groundwork, dont give her an excuse to do it. If she's feeling frustrated, change her attention to something else quickly. Learn to read her and how she's feeling.

If she does it in turn out, send her away HARD- she's not allowed to do that in your presense.

If you feel threatened, look at it like you would with a biter. For awhile they might threaten you with nips or mouthyness. In due time, they'll try it and if you dont stop it at the first signs, its like telling them they're allowed to bite you.

[floppy]

Thanks for that tootsie..will have another go at next week. Im not very good at explaining things and getting to the point :(

As for the yoyo thing, i never tap her on the shoulder but on the floor infront of her. So if she igrnores everything else then i litghly tap the floor with my whip and if she ignores that i whip the floor harder and harder until she moves and as soon as she reacts and starts to move i stop using the whip.

But how can i really send her away without the risk of her coming near me i.e standing my ground..how can i protect myself?

[Tootsie4U]

Take that stick with you. For awhile, about a months time, I carried my dressage whip with me everywhere - even while leading Bonfire from his stall to the grooming isle! If he stepped out of line, I used it in the appropriate way.

I wore a belt so I could run it through and it'd hang there until I needed it.

[floppy]

ok. I hope it gets better.

it always seems to be such a challenge, my instructor reacons though everytime he sees us the relationship is better, but then we have new discussions and he said one day he she will give on with debating with me and agree with me. I just have to get her on my side. I hope he's right.

[Drummers mum]

Floppy, I just wanted to let you know you are not alone. I have a gelding but he is a pony and can be the most stubborn s*d EVER!! He tests me every step of the way!! But it does get better!

At worst he has been known to rear and to swing his bum at me but tail swishing is his favourite! At first I was nervous but I have gradualy become more confident!

He is also very food orientated and so I have started clicker training him and I can incorporate this into the Parelli too (with no carrot stick, can't hold both, lol!) He has got better and better!

Today we played 6 of the 7 games (can't do sideways yet!) and he was perfect but it has taken alot of time and effort. It was only really last weekedn that I realised how far our relationship had come, he hid behind me to get away from the YO and he would come into me from the circle game straight away but not him!! :D

Stick with it!! :D

[floppy]

elja swishes her tail too when im riding her...just have to touch her bum with the whip and the tail swishes.

Just a question, i learnt that oen of the 7 games was ''lunging'' you send the horse away on a circle around you (with long rope) and can change hands and stuff....


When elja learnt this at the course she played up like a silly wosit. Then she could do it perfectly....but now she is playing silly wosits again and i cant get her away from me. All i remember is my trainer saying i have to stand my ground and get her moving away from me instead of me moving away from her...how can i really re-inforce this without her playing up and ''threatening me''?

[Tootsie4U]

Yep, its called the circle game.

It teaches independance - do what mum tells you to until she tells you otherwise. (one of many lessons taught with this game).

Basically floppy, any and all of these games is getting the horse to respect your space and teaching you how to achieve that. All of these games requires the handler to take lead and have the horse move its feet when and where its told. If the horse is moving YOUR feet,she's playing the game on you -not the way its supposed to go :D

Using body language is a big part of achieving that. If she's walking into your space, backing away from her is telling her she's picking and choosing what to do and you're just along for the ride.

All I can tell you to do is what I've experienced with Bonfire. If while doing the circle game and I ask him to go to the left and he just stands there looking at me I have to make it more clear I want him to go left. To make it more clear I have to put more energy into my request so its more obvious to him. He'll pick an answer. It could be the right one on the first try. If it is, good, he gets a realease. If it isnt, I continue with the request until he tries the right answer. It may not be a full trot left, but if he shifts left, I'll release to tell him "Yes, thats where I want you to go". The next time, he may remeber to shift left and he'll get another release to reinforce its correct. As long as he understands left, then I can ask him to step left, then walk left, then trot left. If he ever gets confused or hesitates or evades, I'll just ask a bit louder until he does the right thing and then I'll INSTANTLY reward him by releasing the request. It doesnt matter if he walks in to me or away from me. He has to go left. You have to re-position yourself so you can send her left. 9 times out of 10 that involves moving INTO their space, not out of it.

Its a big part of it and if she's getting you to move, its probably a big reason why you're having the problems you are. "He who moves the other horses feet is boss!"

[Yann]

The one thing that always seems effective in getting a horse moving when I've watched round pen work is to wear a puffy rustly jacket and thrash a lead rope round yourself, and throw it in the direction of the horse too. Easier said than done if you're holding a lunge line and carrot stick though:D

I'm surprised that your trainer hasn't explained the phases of pressure to you, the concept is common and pretty fundamental to all NH training although Parelli is the only one that seems to have codified it. If you don't get the response you up the pressure, and release instantly when you get it. On repetition the pressure can be reduced as the response improves until hopefully a suggestion is enough. Perhaps a difference might be at what point you break off when it isn't working and try something different. Just concentrating on backing up and upping the pressure when you have a horse that might strike out at you seems potentially counterproductive to me, you will naturally tend to be anxious and this will transmit to your body language and make it even harder. Thats' why I asked about round pen work, but equally basic leading, halting and backing up work could be as effective and less directly confrontational.

I'm very interested to hear that Elya seemed immune to join up, although apparently horses that have been lunged a lot can end up like this. I've never heard of a horse being sent away for an hour. Was she allowed to come in when she wanted to or when she was allowed to? Any wandering off during follow up should have been greeted with a vigorous and rapid sending away. Even if you weren't after a full blown join up, driving her away and putting in lots of changes of direction (controlling the feet!) should have had some impact on her:)

[floppy]

Any wandering off during follow up should have been greeted with a vigorous and rapid sending away. Even if you weren't after a full blown join up, driving her away and putting in lots of changes of direction (controlling the feet!) should have had some impact on her

why do you think it went on for so long :rolleyes: , she was invited in. used and abused her invite. And lunging - i havent really done any lunging with her since i have owned her and before i bought her she stood around for a year and before that she was lightly trained mostly ot on hacks.

throwing of the lunge line causes her to buck in your direction and tank off

naja, i will proceed and think of all of you telling me to stand my ground.

one the course my trainer also explained the different degrees of behaviour.Under extreme was horse that lunge at you, ears back, baring teeth and biting you/attacking you. This was classifed as the most ''dangerous'' form of horse. Elja isnt that nasty and my instructor said she is a pain but she is not that nasty. i just hope she doesnt progress to that. She has never bitten me...i can play around her lips and mouth and gums and touch her teeth and she wont bite me. all the other horses by us will bite you upon approach

And the best of it all...i thought i had an easy going horse, it was even suggested to me by old trainer that elja is adopey riding school horse with no character and i have learnt all i can with her that i shoudl sell her and buy soemthing more challenging....if elja isnt challenging i dont know what is. :D


The different phases were explained and shown, she was actually the only horse he really show the rest of the people on the course the actual difference between the different phases ( i did the course in German and ther eare just some thigns i understand in German that i wouldnt know the translation of in English)

[floppy]

but i really appreciate all your help, tips and advice!! Its been extremely helpful and encouraging...especially to know im not alone! thanks guys!

[Yann]

Good luck, let us know how you get on:) She sounds like a challenge alright:D

[floppy]

Will do!:)

ELja is going in the first week of April to a trainer here for a few weeks for training. Need a little bit of help with some other smalls things. And i think it wouldn't harm her to have some extra tution without me annoying her! she might appreciate me more afterwards :p

but i had a dream about it last night...and just saw her jumping out of the arena and doing naughty things... :eek: but i dont have to worry about the dream coming true with the jumping out of the arena bit because elja cant jump anything that isnt a solid fallen down tree!

[cvb]

Floppy

Not sure if this will help or not, but as Fi is still sore I did more work with my mum's Fell this weekend. His answer to things he doesn't understand tends to be to try and walk through you :rolleyes: So we did lots of calm requests for him to back OUT of my space, and he only gets "friendly" game if he respects that space.

With this pony, this is something you have to repeat and repeat and repeat - he's quite a slow learner in some respects. But within a session, the backing qork really helps. If I do "big" body language with my mare, she doesn't come within 1m of me. But if I do the same with this chap, he just gets anxious and walks into you :rolleyes: I think he gets so close he can't see it :eek: So we start with "keep out of my space" and then after that I can use blocks etc if he starts to come in again.

He's a chunky little Fell - so if he uses his weight, there's not much I can do physically - so I just find ways to work on "what happens before what happens happens" and we're safe :D

[floppy]

hmm...what inoticed with Elja yesterday was that when im cleaning the stables and stuff and ingore her she is always hanging around me, and during the process of ignoration if i say ''back'' quielty and walk towards her she walks backwards away from me quite willingful.

funny horse, but as soon as she is ''bound'' to me via a headcollar or something then she starts being silly.

One thing i also noticed is after 2 yrs she has finally stopped trying to rip the headcollar out of my hands after riding when i try to put it on her...she still doesnt liked being touched so mauch around the head ina n affectionate way...she always steps away...but that is improving now as my instructor said that when she moves her head away from me i just have to keep my hands on her head an follow her.


I guess when im ignoring her she trys to seek attention. And she doesnt play up so stupidly because she hasnt got my fully attention.

[Tootsie4U]

Two things floppy:

When I first did join up with Bonfire, it took 45 minutes! Half way through it started pouring raining and even some thunder, but I stuck with it. All the while I was getting the classic signs - licking, chewing, lowering the head, but he would NOT join up with me when I invited him to. Of course, because he didnt join up and went to eating grass after a minute or so, I promptly went back to sending him off - hard!

Why wasnt he doing the final step? I kept asking myself.. I did it all by the book!

Then it dawned on me. Drop the rope. So, I made sure I got all the signs and this time when I invited him in, I threw the rope away. He joined up and stayed joined up for about a half hour.

The point of the story - maybe there is something external you're not thinking about that is keeping Elja from joining up.

And, about the 'crowding your space while you have the headcollar on" thing. My Parelli instructor told me yesterday that part of Bonfire's tendency to always be near me is because I've trained him to be that way. I've always kept him 'on a short leash' so he doesnt understand and isnt comfortable with being on the long end. It isnt a natural feeling for him. And the reason I *did* keep him on a short leash was because I felt it gave me more control. I didnt 'trust' him that far away from me. No idea if this pertains at all, but maybe its something else for you to think about. Maybe thats part of why she is getting so frustrated when you do the yo yo game.

[floppy]

Interesting

The classic signs i always get from elja too in whatever we do, last night i was wondering if she was actually thinking of eating me instead of responding to me :D naah.

What you did join up wise is the same as my intructor did for over an hour and he got far but didnt succeed in the actual join up with her. i have full faith in him..but we left it at that because it was laready 10pm and the restaurant was only open until midnight and we were all dying of hunger. He is coming in June though and we are going to try it again.


Wehn i bring elja in from the field i call her and rattle a bit of food in a cup and she comes. if i go and get her i put the headcollar on and persuade her to follow and dont hold onto her at all.

[floppy]

So, i tried it again today. Everything worked well - including backing off without a tantrum. :o

new problem..or problem that exsisted last time, sending her out in a circle around me. She wouldnt go...i ditched the whip and she still wouldnt go...just kept walking backwards. I stood my ground :) she didnt walk over me.. but was very close.So i stopped.....and took her into the pen and free lunged her thinking maybe this would help to get her later to go round me again in smaller circles. We had a bit of chewing, a bit of lets see if we can scare mum...by suddenly stopping and doinga silly little rear and galloping off but she stayed away from me!!! one time was very close and she bucked in my direction and i lobbed the lunge at her and she tantrumed off looking extremely elegant in with a nice head carriage and dancing around...thought i had a stallion in the pen for a second :D but!!! she didnt buck out again in my direction for half an hour.

Can someone refresh me on join up?

[cvb]

not answering your join-up question, but did you "lift it, lead it, swing it" ?

If you make the lift and lead REALLY obvious, it should help to start the movement in the right direction. Whereas if not, you are stood right in front of them and they can get confused as to which direction you are asking for....

I don't tend to do "join-up" as such in the round pen, I just do the same sort of "can I move their feet where I want" work.

So (when I have a round pen to work in) it looks something like - send out on one rein, let them settle and relax. Ask for simple change of direction. Let them settle again. Thats a brief warm up and lets me see if they are level and sound and relaxed etc. I don't bother too much about speed at this stage. Then when I start to actually "work" I am going to ask for changes in speed without a change of direction, as well as ask for an outward turn change of direction, and then an inward turn change of direction. Based on Klaus F Hempfling's book.

Haven't been able to do this for a while as don't have a round pen - and it gets a bit more difficult in 40x20 :rolleyes:

[floppy]

yes i did, but she wouldnt go. She use to go, but she is just playing up at the moment and doesnt want to go.

when i go into the round pen i dont force her to give everything, i send her awy and she should just keep moving and stay away, it doesnt matter if she falls back into walk, she can walk. Main thing is she is doing what i want.

but while i was lunging her yesterday i was thinking of maybe eventually down the line trying to join up with her again. But as i havent tried it since the course i just wanted to knwo again what i had to look for, when the right signs were again when i should invite her into me...

yesterday i had a bit of chewing , snaking and i finally saw the thing they do with their eyes to make them look ''soft''

[cvb]

Floppy

Do you have any access to Parelli's "Catching Game" DVD ? This gives a lot of the signs you're looking for.

You want to watch ears - inner ear should lock on to you, head - should drop, and you should also see licking and chewing. I think you will also see the head and neck come slightly towards you.

[floppy]

No i dont, will look into the video though....didnt know there was one :rolleyes:

ehm..most of the time i have those signs from her, the head turned in slightly in my direction comes after a loooooong time.
cheers!

[Tootsie4U]

There's a lot of detail in join up. There's things she needs to do and things you need to do. Where you place your eyes on her body is so very important. I could tell you how Roberts advises, but I'd have to rewrite his book. Definately run to your local library and rent his book out - have a nice read and everything you need to know is right there in black and white!

Floppy, if she wont go, walk toward her flank and make her move. Hold the line out in the direction you want her to go, look in the direction you want her to go, and put all your energy toward her flank (the one facing you). As soons as she steps forward or out, drop the line, drop the energy, and tell her "good girl". Repeat.

[floppy]

is snaking along a normal thing? (you know, nose on ground and trotting along)

[Tootsie4U]

Did you ask for it?

Is it done in a mannerly way or does she follow up with bucks, head tossing, snorts?

If in join up, and she's giving me the first few signs, lick - chew - eyes - then I'd probably ALLOW her to drop her head low. One other thing while Im thinking of it, you pick the speed - she doesnt. You mentioned earlier that she'll drop to a walk when she feels like it and you let her. You pick the speed - remember you tell her how and when to move her feet. If you dont, she'll assume you aint her boss. If she drops her head before the other signs, you'll have to have a feel for why and if she's doing it in submission or if she's doing it to be frisky.

When I ***play*** with Bonfire, he'll drop his head and prance around the ring - its really a pretty sight, but if Im trying to join up with him, this isnt a submissive gesture, its a 'oooh, Im fired up and Im feeling good - I wanna buck and fart till the cows come home." Understand?

[cvb]

is snaking along a normal thing? (you know, nose on ground and trotting along)

"Nose on the ground and trotting along" is one thing

"snaking" (head snakes side to side) is something different.

The first - without the side to side movement - is the head drop that you often see with Monty R working horses. i.e. the head lowering is not a slight drop - its BIG !!! I'm talking the kind of head drop you see when a horse is not challenging....

When I've seen Monty - the head is sometimes almost bumping off the floor its that low ;) But you still have the ear on the person etc as well - so the overall picture is co-operative and listening.

The second is more agressive and is the kind of movement you see when a dominant horse is "rounding up" other horses.

Do the words explain the difference or is that not enough ?

[Yann]

Trotting round with nose along to the ground, if it's submissive, it usually the sign you look for to indicate the horse is ready to come in and join up. As far as I know 'snaking' ie. by stallions on the other hand is an aggressive driving behaviour, and is accompanied by pinned back ears.

[cvb]

went to try find some piccies - and found some resources for you :D

http://www.naturalhorsetraining.com/RoundPen3.html for piccie of head dropping - but while you are there check out their whole round pen article ;)

and also http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/roundpen1.shtml just for general round pen stuff.

[floppy]

no then its not snaking..wrong term.

she trots along with her nose cms away from the floor, not compelte rounds..but for at least half a round of the pen and the one ear is on me.

She invites herself in, so i send her away and she does a buck or two and keeps going, i settled her down today into walk but kept her going back into trot and then walk because i cant really overdo it because our pen is full of snow and it's packing itself down and getting a bit slippery.

I invited her in a few times and she came to me licking and stuff and i walked infront of her to see if she was going to follow and she did a few steps but then stopped turned her bum at me and so i sent her off again....naja...will read those links, thanks...

cant do anythign with the moody horse, she wont leave the yard, she wont ride out int he fields, but she will runa roudn the pen.

Just wish the snow would go away :(

[Harry Hobbes]

...nose on ground and trotting along...
This is also done by horses to stretch their topline muscles. They will typically do this IF they accept that they are being driven, and feel the need to stretch; that is, they are no longer in pure "flight mode", are responding to being driven at speed, and feel the need to stretch the topline while moving.

The movement is essentially a form of "long and low" at liberty.

Best regards,
Harry

[notpoodle]

my pony paws some times and it seems to me she does it when she cant see any other way of expressing she is annoyed (with me ...). a while back we were having issues re: standing still when i saddle up. i ended up repeating the putting the saddle on exercise until she finally stood still without me having to hold her head with one arm and put the saddle on with the other! she did the pawing when i made it impossible for her to move about while i tacked up. i *guess* she was miffed of because she didt get her way ...

julia
x

[cvb]

Hmmm - just wondering if, when she "invites herself in" - you should accept that, be "friendly" and then send her back out again. As long as the move in has all the right signs (ears, head etc).

She could just be asking a question and getting confused when she doesn't get the answer she thinks you want ? (i.e. "mum - I think you want me to come in, am I right" "NO - go away !! Now come here !!" )

possible confusion ???

[floppy]

if she invites herself in i send her off straight away. because otherwise once she does it she doesnt stop doing it. Every small twitch she then accepts as an invite.

hmm..

[cvb]

so its all or nothing ;)

But at least if she starts to offer it, you can "shape" it - like with clicker training. So you start by accepting it if its "roughly right" and then move to asking for more accuracy i.e. she needs to come in when the body language is there rather than cos she feels like it...

just a thought ... you are the one on the ground so are best placed to interpret what you see :p

[floppy]

yep...well imust say all the help so far has been fantastic.

one thing, when i lead elja out of the stable to go out on a hack she always stop, all i have to do is put pressure on her and if she still doesnt come then i have to use my whip and she will follow. I have the possibility to go 2 steps up in that i can force her to walk backwards straight into a wall - if she is being really stupid......but up until now i havent done it and the YO saw me leaving the yard and said if that was her horse she would have sent her backwards straight away into the wall. Should i have done that?

I mena i always saw it as, if she doesnt come i ask her with pressure, if she still doesnt come i back my request up with a whip...then i up the pressure and failing all that then i send her the few metres backwards until her bum stops on the wall.....

could it be that my horse has too much tesosterene (sp?) as she does seem so stallion like to me sometimes and even my instructor said i should treat her like a stallion.

[cvb]

floppy

she stops coming out of the stable ? or out of the yard ?

one thing that might be fun to do with this is practise yo-yo at the spot she does this :D

Then when you go out for a ride, if she starts to think about stopping - just go into yo-yo mode (well, if she's offering......)

I was just reading someone else's notes from the Mark Rashid clinic I rode at - and I'm going to be a bit naughty and quote from them as I think its relevent here...

Just because a transition is quick doesn’t mean it’s good. It may be an instinct driven move rather than a thought out answer to a thought out response. If a teacher asks you what 1+1 is and you’re just learning you may answer ‘5’. Imagine she then shouts at you or raps you around the head, shouts ‘No, what’s 1+1?’. You may then answer ‘7’ and get an even louder and quicker negative response with the question repeated. Eventually you’ll say ‘2’ by chance and get told you were right. The next time you are asked ‘what is 1+1?’ you are likely to shout ‘2’ real loud and fast in order to avoid being shouted at but without any real understanding of why 1+1 equals 2. If we take the time to teach our horses soft responses to logical (to them) and soft cues then we’ll always get a soft response as the horse will understand and interpret what we want.

[floppy]

out of the yard. She always stops..never use too..it's a new thing. but i like the quote!

But its so frustrating you know...i think it's all fine for peole to give others advice but when YO gives me advice i always feel like she is giving me a bollocking. Just takes the fun out of everything and makes on feel even more down when things are working out.

She thinks she knows all about riding icelandics too...but i have given up riding her horse for her and correcting its tolt before it doesnt tolt any more. She gets angry with everyone when out riding because she has no control over her horse brake wise. So i always have to hold elja back when elja really wants to run. And then she rides her horse once everyone 4-8weeks and expects her horse to be in good condition and goes out for hacks for over 1.5hrs and comes back with a horse sweating and covered in white froth from sweating and doesnt even put a blanket on it by cold temperatures.