BULSHY -can anyone help

[Dummer&Drummer]

hi i as most of you know i have brought my own 1st horse about 6 weeks ago. he is an arab x cob 7 year old chestnut gelding. he is a perfect ride - willing, obediant, safe, forward going, bold and really fun and exciting

his problem is on the ground (and i think i have made him slightly worse). right from the start he has always been very bulshy on the ground, (what makes it harder is that we think he was gelded a little late in life and developed a real hefty stallion neck).

he was very balshy to tack up - he needs to be kept tied up and when you unclip the nose band on his head collar he yanks his neck round with full force (he is tied to a post in the lean too, no stable, that is concereted in :) ) - this has now improved and i cant tack him up untied yet as he goes walkies and then likes to play 'come and catch me if you can' - but he does not stand still obediantly and does not yank his neck round, so that is good.

he has always been a bit difficult to bring in from his field and turn out, and this has worsened slightly

he is easy to catch - put on a head collar - but then he wont budge, he digs his heels in and refuses to move, and if you try and unbalance him, once again rounds swings his almighty neck and he frees himself from your grip and he walks off

to turn out he is in a rush to go, you dont even have enough time to turn him towards the gate and make stand, as soon as half his body is through the gate he has gone - and his new trick this weekend was to refuse to even enter his field and leave the lean too :rolleyes:

i have tried treats, food, i know a bit about unbalancing him - he now has a bad boy head collar that applies pressure on his nose and round his neck when he yanks his neck, so this has helped, (any comments on how best to use thsi sort of head collar?) it is not a cure but it does make him think twice about yanking, and when he does it is not with such force and i can keep hold of him - but he still wont walk on

my fault - he has slowly got worse over the last few weeks, initially he was better behaved for me than anyone else (he is a womens horse) and now i have witnessed him misbehave for others and that has made me nervous, and he knows that now and he knows when i am dithering to put on his head collar that i cant get him in and he has the upper hand - i have a bad left leg/foot which i makes it difficult for me to balance especially in the mud and uneven ground at the moment and i dont think i am standing close enough to him incase he stands on it - he was initally an angel to turn out, but i think since him learning i cant get him in, he thinks he can behave how he wants when being turned out as well

he is not a kicker or biter, lovely temperament, so it should be easy????? shouldnt it????


beautiful unbalshy to ride, listens to my voice when i ride him or others as he is voice command, but getting him in or out is becoming a night mare - mole hill turned into a mountain

[eventerbabe]

until you are confident in handling him, this situation will not improve. he's taking the p**s coz he knows he can get away with it. i don't really know what to suggest. my mum had a similar problem with my horse, she was nervous of him coz he's bigger than our welshie and coz he knew he scared her, he really played up. she got fed up of his cra**y behaviour and got tough with him. she has a very bad arm (so bad she can't hold the rein in that hand) so to stop him dragging her she started leading him with a whip. every time he tried to barge or pull her he got a whack across the chest (and before i get a barage of cruelty abuse, i'd rather not have my mum trampled thank you very much) which soon sorted him out. he now has a lot of respect for her and behaves like a little angel. good luck

[Dummer&Drummer]

sorry i should of mentioned this - yesterday i girl came out and helped me bring him in, and he was really good for her - she got him walking and as soon as she handed the lead rope to me he stopped!!!!

whether this was a one off or would be a regular thing i dont know, it was the first time it had happened

i can get him in, takes about 20 minutes to walk about 20m's, but it kills my leg, and makes me more nervous, really quite inexperienced about how and what to do with him to encourage him on

it does surprise me cos a few really really good girls have ridden my horse and he does listen to me on the ground and riding wise, he jumps fabulous for me and no one else!! i am quite a dominating rider, but seem to be too timid for him on the ground, i dont wanna hurt him, and i dont wanna do something wrong -may be i need my riding attitude when i get him in and just get on with it - he is taking the mick out of me - i am a little person with a bad leg and unless he follows me in like a dog, i am lost with what to do, know no tricks

[Dummer&Drummer]

thank you, i was thinking of sneaking a whip out with me - as a rider he respects me but as a person on the ground getting him in he is the boss, and i need to change that and i may have to be a bit hard to make him realise that I CAN get him in. i dont want to over do his special head collar by yanking it down to tighten it all of the time to make him walk it - the head collar was for his head yanking, (apparently the reward is when the head collar releases) - but i dont want to over do it - if he yanks that is his fault - but i dont want to yank it unless he misbehaves - is not walking on misbehaving? was thinking of using a whip to make him walk on, not to hurt him - but it makes a nice noise on his winter coat, and to keep hold of him

maybe - head collar for neck yanking and whip to walk on - i heard that just pulling a horse wont make him walk on

my main problem is he knows he can win and i need to show him different - bet he walks in as happy as larry then, and we would both be happier

[eventerbabe]

i'd see how it goes carrying a whip. if it helps then i'm all for it. just be confident :) you will reach that breakthrough moment. my horse now behaves better for my mum than he does for me! :D

[Yann]

Use the whip and pressure halter by all means if it's a case of personal safety, however it isn't the long term answer. The horse needs to be shown clearly and calmly what's expected of it and the way to do this is to do some groundwork with him, Parelli, Kelly Marks, whatever. He might well be a dominant so and so, he may also have never been taught that you aren't supposed to walk all over people. Training him like this will yield far better results than just using force:)

[hackedoff]

Echo Yann- you may find a carrot stick or similar useful to enlarge your body language and when he has got the message you can get rid of it if you want, (mine has been lying in the tack room for weeks now, I didnt dare go near him without it not so long ago). He hasnt really had time to bond with you, try taking him out in-hand to work on his manners it works wonders for your relationship IMHO.
Let us know how you get on.
HO

[Dummer&Drummer]

thank you, i dont understand all of the things you have advised to do on the ground as he is my first horse and i am very new to this.

i know the collar is not a long term solution and only wanted it to use it short term and then progress back to a normal head collar

he is a little difficult but i think most of his problem is me and my confidence, even before the head collar goes on he knows he is on to a winner, i am all but waving it in his face all but waiting for him to put his nose in it - like an incompetent wally

i think later today i am going to try:

putting my head collar in one hand ready and put it behind my back (it is quite tricky to put on as it is a pressure one all the ropes sort of bunch up together until it is on him - but i will forget that and get it ready best i can and like i said put it behind my back) and hide a whip in my boot as a reserve

i am going to walk straight up to him, no rubbish like 'hi mummy is here', and no food (he can have something lovely when he comes in). i am going to walk straight up to him, stand to one side and loop my arm around the top of his nose and hold his head - then put on the head collar first time (that should make him think instead of dithering so much)

then i am going to ask him to walk on, by leaning into him and pulling him round to off balance him (no talking to him and no fussing, and no treats cos very often he has his treats and is off)

and if he walks in nicely he's in

if not

i think i will use my whip and tap him on his shoulder and turn to walk on

if he yanks at any point i am going to stop him by applying pressure on the head collar, not letting go, and shouting no, a second resort is to give him a smack on his bum, but not let go of him (wont hurt him but will make a nice noise on his winter coat) and ask him to walk on nicely

if that does not work - i dont know i am stuck and back to the drawing boards

ive got till the weekend and if things are still the same, my instructor is going to give my some guidance - think he wants to see if i can suss this out myself - thinking i have to be as dominating as when i ride him and get the same control and respect with clear signals as i do when on his back - just stuck with clear signals, nervous and worried about my leg, and i am far too soft in my approach with him on the ground in his field - and the better he becomes the more i can ease off - and also i appreciate he is getting to know me

may also take the advice of what one of you said and at the weekend walk him around, as he usually does just stop and not walk on

any clear signals i can use today???

i just wanna get it right, he is only a baby at 7 years, i dont think he has been shown what to do in the past and was hardly ever ridden, he could go weeks grazing, now he is having to come like 5 times a week, it is not a routine he is used to - he needs to learn this properly for both of our sakes

apart from that he is an absolute perfect gem of a pony in every way and so willing to learn from a ridng point of view, a real honest pony

[eventerbabe]

sounds like a good plan :) remember be confident, and reward good behaviour. be as confident on the ground as you are in the saddle. good luck

[hackedoff]

Have a read of Mark Rashid's 'Horses Never Lie' it may inspire you, it certainly changed how I dealt with my youngster.
Horses want an easy life, to conserve their calories for emergencies. If you make your horse work- ie circle you, back up, go sideways when he misbehaves he will get the message. If he refuses to move, hit the ground behind him with a stick, he is stronger than you but you are smarter than him, pick a battle you can win!

[Dummer&Drummer]

hackedoff

that is brill advice thank you so much for those ideas - make your horse work when he misbehaves - that in turn is also something that that will make ME think - something that i know i can do with him that is right for him and in turn I NOW havE something to do with him when he misbehaves - giving me something to think about and that is the key to my confidence - cos unless he follows me in like a little lap dog i am with all respects pretty clueless with what to do

one question for you, dont laugh - am i supposed to be smacking the ground behind him while i have hold of him, cos my arms are not that long and can i smack the ground with a whip - will he hear that

i know that people walking up behind him makes him walk on - but i'd like to be able to bring him in easily by myself - and i think that maybe the more fuss that is made the worse he is and he is more of a one on one horse

do you have any suggestions on turning him out - the same thing as you said above if he does not want to go out and wont walk on - but - what if he is in a rush - jjust a thought but i cannot manage gates and my horse, so all of the time someone has opened the gate up wide for me - would it help mine and his position if i learnt to open the gate, so it was not opened wide and i had to walk closer to him, holding his head into me and swing him round to a closed gate rather than a gate left open wide still - just wondering if my having to cope alone with a gate will make me get in closer to him, cos sometimes i am seem miles from him (very nervous about his feet and my one foot) and him being so far from me is giving me less control and enables him to give a long hard yank to go ???

ps thank for the above comments and to the other lady with the whip idea - it is going to be a bit of trial and error i think till we find our way together - but so need things/ideas to try with him

[Yann]

Just a couple of suggestions which might help.

Firstly, you're dead right, be confident, deliberate and in charge:)

If you're fetching him in, you could put the lead rope over his neck first and hold the loop in your hand whilst you put the collar on, if he messes about, you can use the rope to try and keep him standing where you want. You could still give him a treat once the headcollar is on and he stands nicely.

If he won't move off take the rope to one side, increasing the angle till he has to take a step. The moment he does, release the pressure on the lead rope, this is critical. If he wanders or gets ahead of you, stop him and back him up a step or two, and really mean it. Again it's critical to release instantly he does as you ask. When he's good, no pressure, when he isn't act firmly. Also make sure you pause and praise him and give him a little fuss when he's doing it how you want. It really is all a big act, you act mad and fierce when he's doing wrong and calm and relaxed when he's doing right.

If you can get your timing right it can be surprisingly effective, horses understand pressure and release very well, it's part of their language. Don't just keep hauling on the halter.

Where are you in the country? If you can't sort it yourself and are stuck there are people who can come and help you who specialise in dealing with these sort of problems:)

[Yann]

Cross posted with you, if he charges ahead, stop him and make him back up to where you want him, he should be at your shoulder and no further forward. You can also keep stopping deliberately and making him do the same, again releasing the pressure at the right moment is critical, he should soon start listening better to you. If he's prone to charging off when you take his headcollar off, you treat him as you take it off and then give him a couple more. It's nice for both of you and will get him out of the habit if you do it repeatedly.

[Big Ears]

he sounds just like my cob mare who was also impossible to ride, wouldn't leave the yard, just planted.

i got an instructor who used Natural Horsemanship techniques with her and a pressure halter and it has transformed her to a happy horse who is kind and gentle rather than a bolshy mare who would barge you , knock you over, refused to move.

We did about three weeks work - daily for 20 minutes - and it did the trick.

[Dummer&Drummer]

thanks yann - trying to remember what you said now so i can reply - thank you for the pressure/release thing the second he does something right - am i thinking that the release of pressure is like a reward for good behaviour

if i am trying to pull him round - and i have applied the pressure as he will not move - if i give up and it gets released - that means that he has won hasn't he?? what ever i do i need to follow it through until he relents and only when HE relents the pressure releases?

i can try putting the rope round the neck, it has been tried before, his neck bless him is so big (he is only 14.3hh and i can barely get my arms round it, arabs have quite stocky necks anyway and being gelded late has added to the size :rolleyes: ) i cant hold him, and not many can, with just a rope if he decides to do his famous yank, it is very very powerful, rips the rope clean out of your hands - but the presure collar helps this, not that he does not still do it sometimes, cos he does, but it is half hearted and you can keep hold of him and pull his head back

i think he is hard to unbalance and try to turn cos he is the sort of horse that can have his neck right round, all of the way and still stand comfortably or walk in the opposite direction - apparently some horses can do that

i was gonna try making him walk backwards if he would not walk forwards and see if this encourages him to walk on

[Yann]

Pulse the pressure, and / or waggle your hand from side to side, he won't be able to brace against you then. If you can't unbalance him to get him to take a step, just keep him where he is and as he is until he gets fed up, because he will. If unbalancing is a bit of a struggle, go straight to the backing up instead, use pressure on the halter and a hand on his chest if needs be. Always release though, including between each step of backing up if you can, you're right, its a reward and a sign that he's doing what you want:)

[Dummer&Drummer]

what is pulse the pressure

and can you explain the wagging a bit more

he should back up with out the collar using my hand to push him back

not sure if i have made this clear but he normally takes one step and stop - and so on and on and on once i have got him moving that does not mean that we are walking off to the gate nicely -he can stop after EVERY step - at best he will stop after walking only a metre

thank you

[Yann]

Give and take on the lead rope, so you're effectively bumping the pressure. Moving your hand from side to side whilst holding a constant pressure on the rope is also effective, especially for backing.

I would use the hand on the chest as an additional aid, not the main one, he is much stronger than you so there's only going to be one winner.

If stops at every step, instantly get him backing up every time he does it, make it uncomfortable for him so it's easier to follow quietly (Hackedoff's point). He's controlling you doing what he does, you need to make it the other way round.

Don't know if you've got it or not but Perfect Manners by Kelly Marks is a really good book on the subject of dealing with these sort of problems, and explains what to do far better than I ever will:D

[Dummer&Drummer]

excellent thank you all of you, at least i have some constructive ideas to try this evening - boy he is going to get at least a little bit of a shock if nothing else, hes gonna think, god this women has had some lessons and its gonna be so different to the hopeless dont know what to do attempts so far - so that may be enough for him to start listening to me

i am gonna but on his head collar first time, no dithering, turn him by using the lead rope and probably giving him a hand by leaning in to him at the same time? release pressure every time he moves even if it is only one step, every time he stops i am going to back him up and then ask him to walk forward - if he is really difficult i am going to try and walk him round and round for a few minutes before asking him on and keep repeating this - i am going to try and be spontaneous and keep him on the move even if it is in circles or backwards

i dont care how long it takes, no time limit he is coming in, and if i get really nervous i am going to stand there till he moves cos i will not be giving in before he gets bored

if he yanks i am going to pull him back, shout no in a mans deep voice and give him a tap on his bum, i am also going to try a tap on the shoulder after backing him if he does not walk on straight away

cant wait to try all this out tonight - having all these ideas and suggestions should give me some confience

thank you xxx

[Yann]

Good luck, let us know how you get on with it. Having a plan makes all the difference:)

[Dummer&Drummer]

yeah it does and thank you so much - feel more confident with some ideas - and almost, not quite, but looking forward to trying them out :)

it is my nerves he is reacting to, i have watched some girls get him in quite easily, but now i have a good few things to try with him and that with a bit of confidence will hopefully make a bit of difference that we can work with

turning out i am going to keep him tight to me, head facing away from his field and do it slow try and feel before he yanks to go and get him to stand till i can feel no tension from him

[hackedoff]

I think you've had some great advice from Yann and others -good luck!

[Dummer&Drummer]

yeah ive had some really good advice

it has been going on now since after a few weeks i have had him, it is still very early days for us getting to know each other, but each week this has gone on longer and each time i have had to get him in i have been getting more and more nervous and stuck, literally

i was even starting to think twice before i went to ride him cos i had to get him in - fine at weekends cos it is so busy up there, but sometimes through the week i'm all alone up there

some of his bulshiness i have kicked in the bud, eg tacking up as i am quite confident with that it was not a problem

should be good trying back in his field, and think i will be quite confident getting him to do this movement (i am aware he wont have his bit in and that he may initially try to yank to the right, maybe) cos when i first got him despite being 7, he did not have a clue what the word back meant, he just looked at you adoringly and blankly have spent 6 weeks asking him to go back mainly on the ground then on him, and he now understands, slowly but surely what he is meant to do when he hears this word, it is not instantaneous when you say the word but after repeating it a few times while you are sat on him he now walks back three paces - so this is something i have done lots with him over the last month

he is a fab jumper, sorts his strides and speeds up naturally when he sees the jump is higher and loves cross country (sometimes too much :-) )but he only has the basics on other stuff he cant do collect canter or collected trott, but collected trott is 'just' only just starting to come (some of it was due to how unfit he was), serpentines are now lovely and he all but finishes them himself with no steering and 20m circles are coming along - does not use the size of his neck against you when you ride which surprises me and i know was one of my instructors major concern

[Dummer&Drummer]

i thought i would let you know how i got on last night

when i got there he was already in under cover cos it was raining, so i decided that i would put on his head collar and just walking him round the small all weather arena that is there, and try and get used to walking close to him and relax, i took a friend (one of the girls who works there who can get him in easily) with me who gave me a hand as well

i was so ridged initiallly, but soon me and my boy were walking happily around the arena, doing turns and figure of eights on foot and after 5 mins i really began to enjoy it, made change to just riding him.

my bulshy boy became a bit a cheeky chap, every so often i would take him into the centre of the arena and give him a treat for being good, so after this as we were walking round he kept trying to put his nose in my pocket, treat hunting, when he realised his nose would not fit he began nudging my arm for a treat (i ignored this smiling), then caught hold of my sleeve on my coat with his mouth and began shaking my arm - i was in stitches and had forgotten all about my nerves (needless to say my cheeky chap did not get a treat till i said) :)

after walking round for 10 mins doing turns on the ground when i asked and him following nicely i walked him straight to his field and turned him out, he did not pull or go off, he was very easy to do and stood next to me after i had taken off his head collar waiting for his carrot -

(also another good thing, the girl who can get him in for me easily took over and walked him round at one point in the arena, but he obviously wanted to walk with his mum (cos she has carrots) :) so that was nice)

realised that with respects to turning out he has been doing exactly as he was told - i was so nervous - i wanted him to hurry up and go away once we were out of the gate - and that is exactly what he did - rushed, cos i was rushing him being so nervous, yesterday i did nothing different i just was not as nervous and enjoyed being with him, i had been walking him for 10 mins and it was just natural taking him out to his field, and i was not in a hurry for him to go - (a little bit nervous, but we had just had a good time together) and he stayed with me

realised yesterday that that was probably the first bit of bonding we have done, apart from riding him i have not done much else with him and it was nice just walking round, him following where i walked to - i thought it would bore him put he was amused with when his next treat was coming - hopefully he learnt that his new bad boy collar does not hurt if he walks on and hopefully he realised i am not a total incompitent fool on the ground, and hopefully doing this a few times may not make getting him in from his field so daunting - and i may be a bit nervous but it felt he start bonding with me a bit, i was laughing, he was being cheeky and we were both relaxed

gonna repeat what i did last night a few times - i enjoyed it after my nerves had settled and he was a real cute cheeky chappie and turned out after like an angel

he is bulshy cos of my nerves - once i get over this - i am gonna have a real cheeky boy on my hands :)

think i may have to repeat walking him round the all weather and not expect him to start coming in like a good boy until i am happy and not as nervous with what i am asking him to do - but walking around the arena seemed like a good place to start for me and with helping us to bond :)