Working Livery

[keen but green!]

Hello everyone,
I'm after some opinions if you don't mind. I am planning to buy my first horse in a few months so am in the process of finding out all about the available options for livery. Like most folk, I don't have bags of cash so finding a balance between distance from home, good standard of care, available hacking/facilities and the all important price, isn't easy. I think I've found somewhere that I'm comfortable with but wondered what other horsey folk think (none of my friends ride so I can't ask them!). It's at the stables where I currently have lessons - they only offer working livery but it seems like a good and comprehensive package as I would not be able to get to the yard every day. They offer: hay, bedding, day-time stable, night turn-out, up to 2 hours of exercise used by BHS students daily for 6 days and they do the bringing in and turning out. Basically the horse is treated the same way as one of the school's mounts but isn't owned by them. The charge for this is £80 a month which suits my pocket.
I must say I don't like the idea of others riding my horse but I have to be prepared to compromise if I want to live the dream of owning a horse and the situation they offer on the whole suits me very well. I also like the fact that only the BHS students will be allowed to ride. The main thing I'm concerned about is the amount of time they'll be used - 2 hours per day seems quite alot and that's even before I get there - am I being a bit silly and too over protective? At least s/he'll stay fit I suppose. I imagine I'll manage to go 5 times per week. What does everyone think? Thanks in advance for your opinions....

[Sophini]

Hey, welcome to NR!!! :D

How exciting to be getting your first horse!! There are so many options for livery so one question would be do you have the experience of looking after a horse yourself so would DIY be a possibility? This way he'd still be ridden enough but by you only (my TB is only ridden 5 times a week at the moment)...the downside is that you would have to be there at least once a day to muck out etc. and you might need someone else around to help you out with things if you're not used to doing them.

If you know the instrudtors at a riding school and are happy with the way the horses are kept and the standard of riding they'll be used for then i working livery can work really well, your horse gets some schooling and it costs a lot less. You'd need to consider what would happen if you wanted to do a competition at the weekend, can he have a weekend day off? The disadvantage is of course that it's YOUR horse and you may not like seeing other people ride him - that's quite understandable, I think most of us horse owners are really over-protective of ours!!

The middle road would be maybe to have him on working livery for a couple of months until you feel ready to take him onto DIY and have sole responsibility for everything....As long as what ever you do is all written up in a proper cotnract it should be fine

Good luck - and have fun!!!

JJ.

[Sam and Blake]

working livery usually works for most people but i dont think i would have my horse on working livery.it depends on what level he will be used at who with etc. some kids can spoil it and i would be afraid that one of the riders might be a bit stupid and make my horse go lame or something but im just obviously looking at all the negatives.in a good way at least you know he is being ridden and having some schooling and exercise.congratulations btw.

[kayjayhorses]

mmmmm, not sure I could do it either sorry.

I did a BHS stage 1 course at a riding school and unfortunately there was a larger lady on the course as well that rode rather heavy upon the horses and was very unbalanced, couple of the horses were working livery and I cringed everytime she rode, I understand people have to learn but you got to feel a little sorry for the horses.

I know its pricey to be at a livery yard, but maybe getting someone to share your horse with you as a part loan could be an option, at least you'll have a say about who gets to ride your horse and how its ridden too.

[Bay Mare]

I, personally, wouldn't do working livery but if you do make sure that you get everything down in writing, standard of people riding (just because they're BHS students doesn't make them good riders), amount of time ridden etc.

I would be a bit concerned about your horse being used for 2 hours a day for 6 days a week. Although the horse will fitten up and be able to do this easily when are you going to ride?

You will also need to think about how you will feel having other people ride your horse! Although I will let people who I know and trust ride Saff I wouldn't just let anybody on her.

[JustJas]

Owning a horse is fantastic- best thing I have ever done. Ours live on grass livery and we work them when we can.
I would not do working livery as I would not feel horse was mine esp if you work and want to ride in peak times.

[Demson]

Sorry but I hate to see horses on working livery, not all places have good riders and it is very sad to see a horse with so many different riders on its back, some know how to ride correctly but most don't and it is these ones that spoil a horse.

When I was at college we would be told to ride for 10min and assess the horse we were riding, then we would have to tell the instructor what we thought the horse needed. I nearly always replied.."To be ridden on his own and given some one to one schooling with flexion and suppling exercises"

Also 2 hrs work every day is quite a lot and if they use your horse 6 days a week then that doesn't leave any time for you to ride unless you expect your horse to do more than 2 hrs a day. My horse is pretty fit and he only does 1-2hrs a day with one day off and he is on a training programme getting fit ready to compete. He is not ridden by any person who just happens to be choosen for him.

You need to think..you are going to get very attached to your horse, could you stand there and watch someone bouncing hard about his back, digging their heels in, yanking at his / her mouth. or worse over using the whip? Now I know not every one rides this way but plenty do. Also if he /she misbehaves, do they hit him or shout at him? Your not there and would never know. I say these things as though it was my horse and as I am over protective anyway of him I would never allow someone I didn't trust to care for him.

I have seen many horses ruined through a collage or school while on working livery and it was enough to put me off.

Another option for you would be to part loan that way only you and one other ride your horse and split the costs. It is also useful say if you can't make it to the stables then you can contact the other person and ask if they can help out and visa versa. You can also see better how your horse is looked after.

Mind there are some good schools that are particular about who rides which particular horse and you could say stipulate that a rider must have a certain amount of experience to ride your horse and NO beginners. This would be a better choice.

For your horse though I'd say an hour a day for lessons would be more preferable as that would also allow you to ride later if you so wished without over working your horse.

edited spelling errors...again..

[Stella2]

I have to say that I wouldn't do it either for all the reasons stated above. Like Baymare, I will let someone I know and trust ride my mare, but I couldn't let a stranger ride her and certainly not if I wasn't there. And I agree with Alf - when would you get to ride if he does 2 hours a day 6 days a week?

That said some people are happy with working livery and who am I to judge :eek:

[horseygal90]

I'd (if I ever get a horse) have to do a working or part livery - Its just not practical for everyone to be able to get to their horses and exercise them everyday, day after day. I'd put in the contract that he was only to be used for certain riders who can, say, canter and trot without stirrups competently.

I wouldn't have him on working for 6 days mind, maybe 3 would be better? Then you get 3 (or 4) days to work him as you will.

[Stella2]

Most schools don't take a horse on working livery if the owners tries to set too many limits and the owner wouldn't be there to see the standard of the rider! One thing I learned quickly is that you have to be careful who you trust in the horse industry!!

Not all horses need riding every day and if you go for the right breeding you should be able to find one that is fine on 3 or 4 times a week. I can't get to the yard every day either. Full or part livery can make that okay.

[Demson]

Its just not practical for everyone to be able to get to their horses and exercise them everyday, day after day.

You don't need to ride every day, I know some people with a horse that only ride once a week, as long as you feed your horse according to the work it is doing it won't matter if you only ride once or twice a week.
I exercise mine 6 days a week (sometimes 5) as he is in training to get fit for Carriage Driving Trials which takes a lot of fitness and stamina. However I choose to do this and love it all.
Having a horse is not just about how many times you ride it but more about forming a partnership and loving one another and enjoying each others company.

[kedwards]

I wouldn't like a working livery situation, but it does work for some people. Even still, the setup you are describing sounds like a bad scanario. Two hours a day of lessons is a lot of work to begin with. What time will there be for you?

Personally, I would look into a share/lease type situation instead.

[JOJOBA]

Okay keen but green, I am going to give a fair and balanced answer.
I own two horses, one of whom has spent 8 years on working livery (since we got him) and one of whom has spent the 5 years we've had him on private livery. So I can give both sides of it based, of course, on my own experience.
WORKING LIVERY - GOOD

The horse gets plenty of exercise
You dont feel too guilty if you cant make it
The horse will not get bored standing in
Instructors will constantly see your horse and notice quickly if anything is wrong
The horse may be ridden by good riders who will improve it
The horse will be probably be less spooky and more laid back
The obvious one - it's cheaper!

WORKING LIVERY - BAD

It's heartwrenching watching novices/heavy handed riders on your horse
Your horse will, most likely, become dead to the leg (even if it learns more)
You may feel guilty riding your horse if he has already done 2 hours work
you may end up cutting your riding short in order to have him ready / rested for lessons
In my opinion, a young horse SHOULD NOT be on working livery under any circumstances - it confuses and upsets them
Your horse will be less responsive to YOU. ie. you will get the same level of work out of it as everyone else does (or worse)
You wont get daytime turnout - the horse will stay in for lessons

PRIVATE LIVERY _ GOOD

It's YOUR horse, and you get to pick who (if anyone) rides it
You can work on things and not have all your hardwork undone by one bad rider
Any improvement is your doing
You can ride when you want, for as long as you want
You may get daytime turnout (the horse wont be kept in for lessons)

PRIVATE LIVERY - BAD

If you dont have the time to go up you will feel bad (bye bye social life)
Your horse will not be as fit as it would be on working livery (unless you have a lot of spare time)
Any problems you have to sort out yourself, as no-one else is riding the horse
The horse may get bored (mine is) if you cant ride him enough
The horse will only progress as fast as you - he wont learn anything new that you havent taught him


Those are just my personal experiences.
Sorry to disagree with you again ALF (I think we had this disagreement on a very similar thread! :p) but I dont believe that working livery 'ruins' horses.
My horse was on working livery for 8 years and he is well mannered, talented, good to ride and loveable. When we got him he was a naughty, unbalanced, unfit horse - so much so that no-one would get on him for almost a year. He isnt a Grand Prix dressage horse by any stretch of the imagination, but I certainly wouldnt say he's ruined. He fulfills his job description of safe, happy hacking horse perfectly, schools nicely and gets quite a nice outline going, and we've only taken him off working this year as we decided it was time for him to go into semi-retirement (aged 17). Much as I disliked watching novices kicking him round the school, he's still a happy horse and nice ride, and one of the safest horses (especially for a TB) Ive ever ridden.
My private livery horse, on the other hand, is as lazy as any stereotypical riding school horse, STILL cant canter properly, knows every evasion in the book and wont round up for anything. He's unfit and kicked through his stable wall one day when he was bored. He's also taken to threatening to buck (although horse no.1 can do some fairly spectacular flying bucks when in the mood!), and is like a small furry tank when being ridden behind something else. He's one of nature's followers and will take any excuse to bomb off if he's in naughty mode.

xxx

Edit - kedwards, I think 2hours is about standard. Our agreement stated that our horse could be used for up to 2hours a day

[DavidH]

I personally think working livery is the biggest CON in the horse industry. Lets take a look at it from the riding school side.

First yoiu give them £4000 capital interest free, the cost of your horse.
Then you allow them to use it to make money lets say £20 per hour X2 = £40 per day, X6 = £240 per week. X 4 = £960 per month.

THEN you give them an extra £80 per month for the privelidge of supporting their business. Total income per month £1,040.

Average FULL livery cost is around £450pcm so the riding school is making a wopping £590 from you every month. An the risk they take for this...NONE.

Who is left with the horse of little if any value after 10 years or if it breaks down ..... the owner =YOU. Is it any wonder that riding schools are keen on working livery and some actively encourage pupils to use it as a means of getting in to horse ownership.

Owning a horse is not just about riding, it is about relationships and freedom. Neither of which you will have with your horse on working livery

There are better ways to reduce the cost of horse ownership and as others have said, most horses don't need to be ridden every day.

On balance with the above and all the other disadvantages that have been stated I wouldn't touch working livery with a very long barge pole.

Guess you can tell I feel very strongly about this. :mad:

[LinzCos]

Have you considered DIY? If you are able to ride five days a week it sounds like you might have time for DIY although it can be a lot of responsibility with your first horse.

Sharing, as others have suggested, might be a good first step. There are loads of people with horses at DIY who are looking for sharers. That way you gain experience and get the benefit of developing a bond with a horse who isn't ridden by so many people (cf working livery). The cost would probably be similar to keeping your own horse in working livery but without the initial expenditure.

You would soon develop a network of contacts and be well placed in a year or so to buy and care for your own horse without needing so much support from your school.

As for riding every day, my TB lives out 24/7 with his two pony friends. They spend lots of time racing each other round the fields! I only ride him at weekends and he is fine; fast but responsive and manageable. He is almost 20 years old and we don't compete. I got him to suit the riding I was able to do - you will be able to do the same.

Good luck with your approach to horse owning - it is great :D

[Stella2]

Re David's post - and full livery in the North is between £285 and £360 per month!

[eventerbabe]

i couldn't agree more DavidH!!!! i have seen horses ruined on working livery and its something i'd never, ever subject my horses to. as david said, there are better ways of reducing costs.

and just coz you have a horse doesn't mean it has to be ridden every day. at the moment, i'm lucky if i get time to ride twice a week, so my horse is fed accordingly and is in his element mooching around the field tormenting my little welshie!

[Dan2808]

Im in the process of looking for my first horse (cant wait :) ) but id never put them on working livery, id be scared that they would pick up bad habits and all my hard work schooling them would be wasted. And i dont think i could watch a stranger riding my horse, id prefer to have DIY livery, and if for any reason I was unable to get to the stables id have many phone numbers of people at my stables i could call and ask them to turn out,feed,water,exercise ect my horse and then return the favour when needed.

[Demson]

As with the majority on here working livery does not produce well mannered and sensible rides and horses in DIY, PL or FL do not become unmanageable aggresive horses.

In working livery I have seen horses so aggressive that even the lecturers were scared to handle the horses. One in particular could kick you no matter where you were standing and he had a fantastic aim. If he didn't kick you he would bite instead. Getting him out the stable was a mean feat as you had to catch him to put the headcollar on and changing rugs was a classic. They kept him as once you got on his back he was okay to ride, not brilliant but okay.
"See if you can grab the surcingle before getting kicked" was a fav game of his and groomimng...well you needed eyes not just in the back of your head but to the sides as well. he was the worst but not the only bad tempered horse on the yard and I'm not surprised. Imagine being stuck in a stable 24/7 and only getting out to be ridden by side kicking, mouth pulling, back banging people. No comfort like you would get from a one to one relationship more like a money making machine.

Now onto horses kept in livery yards. A horse is as aggressive as it needs to be. Horses are not born like this they are created by us and if they show aggression it is because they are unhappy and are trying to tell us something.
If I had a horse that was aggressive to me whenever I approached it I would be thinking two things

1) What did the previous owner do to you that causes you to be like this. (assuming the horse has been this way from day one)

2) What have I done to cause you to be like this (assuming it is something that has slowly built up)

I would never think...Why are you an aggressive bad tempered horse.
It is not natural for horses to be aggressive and something has made them this way and that something is people.

Every horse that I have had has NEVER been aggressive with me and horses that I have worked with have changed attitudes with me and I started riding a friends horse (16.2hh ID x TB) with no problems after it became uncontrollabe with the owner (it would rear, bronc and bolt). The owner even asked why her horse was so different with me and I said it was because I asked her horse to do things that it was only capable of and listened to her without allowing her to want to be unmanageable.

Horses want to please people and be one with them not be isolated and alone.

Private Livery Yes it is much harder than Working Livery...of course it is that's obvious, but if your not prepared to or haven't time to see to your horse yourself then you have to think about what you want in reality. Is it just to have a horse to ride or to have a horse that you can create a loving partnership with.

Working Livery = Horse to ride
Private Livery = Partnership

I have had to get up at 5.30am see to my horse go to work then go back to the stable before getting home and sat down around 7pm for 5 days a week then Sat and Sun I got a lie in and was at the stables for around 8am. Why? because I loved my horse enough to do it and not once did I ever consider Part livery or Full Livery never mind Working Livery.

I am sure the majority will agree with me that buying a horse is a commitment that needs to be followed through and that forming a relationship with your horse and maintaining it is one of life pleasures.

Working Livery reminds me of a situation like buying a dog when its a puppy and its all new and fun but when it grows up and becomes more demanding you palm it off on someone else.
In defence for some with horses on working livery, this may have been done for other reasons such as loosing a job so money it tight or a baby has come on the scene and its only a telporary measure, but to buy a horse to put straight into working livery to me beats the object of buying a horse in the first place.

[JOJOBA]

its something i'd never, ever subject my horses to

I somewhat resent that - I care about my horse's wellbeing as much as anyone and would never do anything to harm him. I certainly dont think we have 'subjected' him to anything. In the end it was me who rallied for him to be taken off working livery, as, on the whole I dont like it. But I dont agree with this notion that it 'ruins' horses - horses can just as easily be 'ruined' by one person.

xxx

[eventerbabe]

sorry if you find my choice of words offencive. it wasn't intended to be. but i know my horses would find working livery an ordeal. everyone has their own opinions so i'm not gonna say any more, ALF has quite eloquently put the reasons i chose for looking after my horses myself.

[Demson]

I don't think that quote was aimed at people in general but a personnal view of Eventerbabe and that her opinion should be respected.

I agree it only takes one person to ruin a horse so why allow your horse to endure the inexperience and misunderstanding of more than one person.

As you can guess I am not in favour of working livery but I do understand why some people go to it. I know some people take their horse to college with them and I admire them for being strong. There is no way I could control my emotions if I saw someone riding my horse in an inappropraiate manner.

I do realise also that though the majority of working livery is the same and some worse than others there are also a minority that actually care for the horses and make sure they are ridden and cared for properly.
From my experience from that of a student and of a private horse owner I have seen enough to keep my horse away from Working livery.

[Demson]

Just like to add that this is quite an interesting topic and good to read the replies. I got to go out now to the stables so will catch up later.

ta ra...

[eventerbabe]

As you can guess I am not in favour of working livery but I do understand why some people go to it. I know some people take their horse to college with them and I admire them for being strong. There is no way I could control my emotions if I saw someone riding my horse in an inappropraiate manner.



exactly why i wouldn't cope if mine were on working livery. also, you need to realise that in my neck of the woods, 99% of yards only offer DIY with some services like T/O, feeding aswell. i know of only 5 that offer full livery and have had bad reports from all of these yards. i wouldn't criticise anyone for using working livery coz no-one is going to put their own horse at risk deliberately. each to their own.

[Lenvale]

Message deleted

[Bertie]

I think that working livery is an option available and if you find the right stables with the right "contract" for want of a better word it can be benficial to all involved.

Things you might want to considering stating into your deal is that it can only be used on certain days and maybe those days it can be used up to a number of hours and you have your horse all weekend. It sounds that if only BHS students would be using it they're not complete novices and should be fairly competent. You would need to make sure that the school's insurance covered your horse when they were using it.

Yes the school is benfiting from it in quite a good way but they are running a business not a charity and will be wanting to make money at every opportunity to cover the astronomical insuarnce costs involved in running a riding stables.

It may not suit everybody or everyhorse but it does suit some and for those who have other commitments such careers, children and families the extra back up and help is extremely helpful and doesn't make the owner a bad owner or stop your building a relationship with your horse. There are horror stories but there are success stories too, it's an indivdual choice which you should make fater really researching your prospective yards.

Good luck and happy horse owning :)

[amandal]

As Bertie says it really depends on where you are and what the place is like where you're on working livery. It also depends on the horse, some don't mind being in lessons every day, especially if they're varied, some get bored.

If you find a good centre working livery should make no difference to your horse's way of going, it's wellbeing and happiness. Or to yours !

However it can be difficult to find that perfect place, my mare was on working livery at the same place as Lenvale's gelding is. My mare was used for a lot of beginners/assessment lessons. She was also used for more advanced riders (much more advanced than me ;) .

I have no complaints with how she was looked after but found the owner management skills lacking at this particular place. She was there for just over 3 months and each week there was at least one incident of her being in a lesson even though I'd "booked" her, one particular week I was booked in to have a lesson on her and she was down to have a lesson at the same time with another of their clients. I also had quite a lot of kit go missing, often found in other horse's stables rather than total disappearance but still frustrating.

I think communication/organisation between the owner and the yard manager is very important and many places, while they look after the horse well, forget this part of the "contract".

You need to ensure you're happy with the number of hours / number of days that they use your horse for and if there are any issues communicate them immediately before they build up into big problems. Also try and make sure you're happy with how they teach, watch as many of the different instructors as you can so you see how they all work. Turn up and watch lessons your horse is in to make sure things are going how you want.

My mare got fitter and lost a lot of her stiffness on the right rein so I wouldn't say they ruined her at all.

In the end I moved mainly because of lack of winter turnout and because I felt that I couldn't do much schooling or have lessons as she wasn't being used for hacks by the school, so to give her variety I used to hack her. There were some other issues, one of the instructors didn't welcome questions which to me indicates a not very good instructor and so I was a bit concerned about her being taught by everyone there.

Working livery does work for some though, if you find the right place.

[Casey76]

ALF, I think it is a tad harsh to say that Working livery = Horse to Ride
Private Livery = Partnership


I don't think that having a horse on working or full livery means that the owners "can't be bothered" to do chores, or "only want to turn up and ride" or "don't want a partnership" with their horse. Of course I'm not saying that this doesn't happen, however there can be a lot of circumstances in which it's not physically possible for an owner to get to the yard twice a day.

Due to the location of my yard (and frequency of public transport) I couldn't get there on a morning for any morning duties... however I can shift my working hours, so that by starting earlier I can finish earlier and be at the yard for about 4:30pm.

It's not that I don't want to be involved with the care of a horse, it's a fact that I can't - as I need to work to support him. I also don't think that the fact that my horse would go onto full livery means that I'm "not ready" for full ownership. I have full confidence in the YO and the grooms. The horses are not over-ridden, the grooms ride to a high standard and are not harsh, the other 'lesson' people also ride well and many compete to a high level. The majority of the horses, both livery and school, are bright eyed, bushy tailed and curious... anyway I'm digressing

Keen but green, I hope your new horse (when he/she arrives) is everything you dreamed of, and I hope you find a livery situation best suited to you. :)

[Brandy]

ALF - college horse you mentioned wasn't Jennings by any chance? A long shot but sounds familiar!

[horseaholic]

my horse was on working livery for 8 months (i was really against this - but at the end of the day it was up to my parents who listened to the YO more than me :mad: ) if it was my decision i would NEVER have put him on working livery. He was ridden for up to three hours continuously a day, and I could only ride him at certain times, and i always felt guilty because he was bored and tired. After 7 months and 29 days of pleading, i finally got him all to myself, but it's taken a lot of work to get him at all responsive to the leg, and often as not, my sister gets on him and ruins my hard work :mad:

sorry, rant over

[GarnetFox]

I don't have a horse of my own nor have had in the past and to be perfectly honest, I don't know a lot about horses.

I do want to just butt in for a second though.

How did you learn to ride? If you were lucky you had your own horse from birth. If not, you might have learned in a riding school. So people putting their horses on working livery may have helped you to learn how to ride and have so helped you on your way to horse ownership.

Working livery must have some benefits.

No offence meant. :)

[eventerbabe]

How did you learn to ride? If you were lucky you had your own horse from birth. If not, you might have learned in a riding school. So people putting their horses on working livery may have helped you to learn how to ride and have so helped you on your way to horse ownership.



very valid point, garnetfox. the school i learned at had one or two working liveries and yes, i did ride them, but only when i got to a good level with my riding ability. i remember one lovely little pony whom i sometimes rode who was a working livery got totally ruined coz the school used him for polo. another pony came to the school and was perfect, but after a month on working livery he'd changed beyond all recognition, grumpy, horrid to ride and bucked my sister into a wall (was NOT her fault, she's one of the best riders i know). i don't think its the riders that ruin the horses, its the way the school uses them. if you can find a good school then fair enough, but riding schools at the end of the day ae in it for the money, and your horse is just another way to increase their income.

[Volvic]

As you can guess I am not in favour of working livery but I do understand why some people go to it. I know some people take their horse to college with them and I admire them for being strong. There is no way I could control my emotions if I saw someone riding my horse in an inappropraiate manner. When I get a horse (hopefully not too long!) I will be taking it to college with me. It will not however be on working livery as I have been desperate for my own horse for 10 years & I want to build that special bond with it that cannot be obtained as quickly when your horse is on working or full livery. I'm not saying it cant be obtained, because it can & I've seen it, but it takes much longer to build up a bond with a horse who you dont see & care for every day.

As for working livery, I know there are lots of riding schools out there who do overwork the horses & put too many novices on them so they eventually become dead to the leg. However, please dont tar all riding schools with the same brush. I work at a fantastic riding school where a lot of the horses are on working livery. Generally, the most hours they do in the riding school is 1 hour per day during the week & 2 hours a day at weekends. The livery owners have clear cut hours when they can ride their horse & it is only used in the school during these hours if the owner has given their permission. Most of the horses live out 24/7, so they definately do not lack in turnout hours & they all seem to enjoy their work as they all get ridden by more experienced riders as well as the novices.

keen but green, if I were you, I would look at the standard of care at your riding school & spend some time there just watching how the staff handle the horses. Also, try to speak to some other livery owners to find out how working livery works for them on this yard & whether or not they are happy with it.

I'm sure all of us would ideally love to have a horse on DIY livery, or even better, at home, but for most of us, this is unrealistic due to other commitments, which is why part, full & working livery came about. Obviously, the standard of care greatly differs between yards which is why I think its important to discover whether the horses are treated as horses or as money making machines before you commit to sending your horse to a yard on working livery (or in some cases, even part or full livery).

I hope my ramblings make some sort of helpful sense!!! :D

[SO1]

Buying a horse wherever you keep it is a bit commitment, believe me its much easier to buy one than to sell one if it doesn’t work out!

I agree in an ideal world we would all be able to keep our horses at home or on DIY so we can build up a bond with our horses. However in reality this may not be possible for everyone. DIY can be a struggle during the winter, if your yard has limited turnout then you may need to be there twice a day to bring in and turn out. With regard to asking people to help you out, I wouldn’t rely on the goodwill of others, especially in the winter. I do favours for people but it can take ages bringing in more than one horse, what with rug changes, cleaning their legs, doing feeds etc and not everyone has the time to help out.

An alternative to working livery is to find a sharer, this can work really well as you can cover for each other when you do on holidays or are sick and could perhaps enable you to have the money to keep your horse on part livery during the week when you are working/busy and then on DIY at the weekends when you have more time.

Working livery might be a good option if you have very restricted time/limited experience, as it means that your horse will also be exercised and schooled under the supervision of an instructor. Obviously this varies from place to place but you said you know the riding school and the standards of lessons and are happy with the situation and that is the main thing, though it does seem like they will be using the horse alot. The working liveries most yards I know are only used on one weekend day and then 3 days during the week but its probably more expensive. You could always have a chat with other working livery owners at the yard to find out how happy they are.

However if you are only considering working livery for financial reasons then I would think twice. What for example would happen if your horse got injured or sick and couldn’t be used in the school, would they continue to charge you the working livery rate until it had recovered and could be used again? I would strongly advise against buying a horse if you couldn’t afford to keep it if couldn’t be ridden.

[notpoodle]

i think it very much depends on the circumstances and, most importantly, the riding school in question!

£80 a month sounds very very cheap though! my yard chare something like £300 for working livery (based on full livery ie they sort out EVERYTHING for you including arranging for the farrier etc.).not a cheap option but okay if you have money but dont have that much time.

i know a couple of working liveries at the yard who are very happy with the arrangement because they dont have enough time on their hands to do everything themselves. the school horses at my yard are very well cared for, they live out and are only stabled between lessons (which happen on a rota basis to ensure nobody is overworked!).

but i also know some ex-working liveries who switched to DIY or part livery because they couldnt handle seeing other people riding their horse :rolleyes:
OR their horse turned out to be not entirely suitable for lessons/a lot of people fell off/ etc.

julia
x

[keen but green!]

Thank you to all who took the time to add a comment to my original post - this is the first time I've used any sort of message board or forum. I'm not really any closer to making a decision but I do have more opinions, which is what I asked for.
An especially big thank you to Jojoba who provided what was probably the most unbiased and most useful set of comments on the thread. It is a bit of a quest to find an ideal situation for my first taste of full ownership so I’d like to reassure you all, that any conclusion I come to will be after lots of research.
It is however, hard not to get a bit defensive at some of the comments which come across as slightly arrogant and which insinuate that working livery is only good for lazy, incompetent or cruel owners who don’t really want to form a bond with their treasured horse; or comments which seem to suggest in a rather clinical assessment that schools are out to extort money from ill-advised and unwitting novices who are incapable of making a reasoned decision for themselves. It is useful to be able to empathise with all sides, wouldn’t you say?
That said, and completely without prejudice, I do see all points of view and can appreciate that some of you would be horrified to see your own horses used in a school situation. I found all comments - without exception - to be food for thought, so once again thanks very much indeed.

[fair~filly]

I've had good & bad experiences.
I bought my boy from a riding school under contract that he would stay on working livery for 6 months ( I broke the contract as he was being overworked...had no turnout)

I then had a spell of about 5 years doing diy & part livery.....before going back to working livery (due to time...or rather lack of time problems) I could have chosen full livery but my boy would have sulked, he loves attention & hacking.

Where I am now the only contribution I make is covering his health insurance (& keeping up my personal accident cover of course)
The yard pays for shoes, dentist, feed & any veterinary expenses caused by accident while in their use.

He does a maximum of 2 hours work (if all school work) or 3 hours if he goes out on a hack. He only works 5 days.

If I want to ride I just turn up ( I usualy ring 1st) & all his work is cancelled & the clients put on other Horses.
The diary is always available so I can see exactly what he's been doing.

I must say I have an excellent relationship with everyone at the yard & if there was a problem I'd tell them & I know it would be settled.

My Horse is 18 this year....& he'll happily wander about with a child on a long rein or gallop round a X country course. He is very fit well fed & healthy.

My circumstances health wise aren't great right now & I can't ride :( in fact I haven't since December....but I still know he is in safe hands, not stuck in a field waiting for me.
He's got manners, is in a routine & is checked several times a day.

OK it's not ideal for everyone but I'd rather that than him being stuck in a stable waiting for me to get well enough to ride him. Which is a point to consider before buying, circumstances do change.

I wish you luck.... :) .....F~F XXX

Horses are Us© (http://horse.notlong.com)

[Demson]

Hi Casey

Thanks for quoting me, your right, not every owner who has their horse in WL doesn't create a bond but it is less likey.

On another note it is interesting to read from a thread about how a horse at elementary level was not ruined by working livery, but she did go on to say that only particular people could ride the horse and that she had an agreement.

Now at the college I went to anyone could ride any horse and the tuition was appaling. Most times the lecturers were BHSAI and to me that means not a lot.(sorry if I am offending anyone here) It doesn't take an expereinced rider to pass the A1 but it does take a hell of a lot of experience to ride a horse correctly.

As I said before there is a minority of places that work well with WL and care for the horses but the majority don't. So don't be in such a rush to knock me down here.

The college was Moulton

[horseygal90]

How did you learn to ride? If you were lucky you had your own horse from birth. If not, you might have learned in a riding school. So people putting their horses on working livery may have helped you to learn how to ride and have so helped you on your way to horse ownership.



The horse I am riding at the minute is a working livery - He's responsive, active, energetic - In fact he's the exact opposite most of their school horse which are dead to the leg, lethargic and often crabby. The three best horses at my yard are on working livery - All have amazing bonds with their owners and all are friendly and nice to ride.


As they say, different strokes for different folks!

[canna]

Hi there from a fellow Cardiffian!!

Firstly congratulations on your pending venture. :D
Interestingly, I'll be in exactly the same situation as yourself next year (just waiting for my youngest child to begin school). Similarly, I'll be pursuing the working livery option too for a while. Out of interest, where do you currently ride? (pm me if you fancy a chat!!) I ride at a school very near the city centre, and must say that the few horses that we have on working livery are treated very well. The instructors are very choosy about who rides them, and all are very quick to correct any 'bad riding'. If the horse can be used in the higher grade classes, where in theory the rider should be 'better', then this is done. Nothing is done without owners approval. Also, as part of the working livery scheme, the owners can join in group lessons free of charge, obviously riding their own horse, and this is counted as part of the horses working hours. It was thanks to one working livery horse, that I regained my confidence, and have never looked back. I'm sure that the majority of us would not want unknown others riding our treasured friends, but we are not all able to do diy, for whatever reason. My constraints are young family and early morning start at work (nursing). Therefore, I dont think that this should stop anyone from owning a horse. I'm lucky in that my working livery situation would only be for a few months, to gain confidence and have the initial support. We are aiming to buy a house with land, and would have the horse(s) at home. I would recommend being very choosy about where your horse lives though. good luck!! :) :)

Heather.

[Mossy]

Just a thought. Whether working livery works depends largely on the attitude of the yard. Does it see the WL as an extra horse of theirs, but one they are not paying for, or does it see the ned as a paying guest, with rights of it's own, which are to be honoured. If the latter there should not be a problem. If the former run a mile! How does the yard treat it's other WLs? What do the owners say when the boss is not listening? Secondly it depends on the horse's temperment. Some just are not suited to school work and WL bores them silly - can manifest itself with laziness or stupidity. It is not something I would use for either of mine as tempermentally they are not suitable, but not something I would reject out of hand as a principle.

[~*Mango*~]

HEY! im hoping to buy my first horse soon too! and ive been looking into working livery! there is this stables about 10 minutes down the road from me, and theyve said that...
you can ride your horse for 1 hr a day.
your horse gets assessed when it starts livery there.
your horse gets free training every other month to maintain the standard that it started at.
i have been riding there before and every one does treat the horses very well (mainly because its a posh riding school)
the horses get used mainly between 3.30 pm and 5.30 pm weekdays so he wouldnt be over worked and i still get to use him for an hour a day.

i think that as long as the horse doesnt get over worked and you get to ride him too, then its aaaal graaaaavy!

daisy
--x--

[Demson]

From 3.30 to 5.30pm is two hours plus an hour that you would ride that is 3hrs work every day which is quite a lot. I wouldn't want my fella doing 3hrs a day 5 days a week. He would need the weekend off to relax which is when most people have the time to ride due to work etc.

[anuvb]

Hi Keen but green

I'm from your neck of the woods, and if I am right, then I can probably guess which yard you will be having WL at. Personally, and knowing the yard, I wouldn't go for that option. Whilst I suspect it is the same yard as Canna's and she has gievn it a glowing reccoemmendation - I have witnessed first hand a horse on 'WL' and felt it was worked far far too hard. Although it was one experience out of possibly many, and may have been entirely a one off. I've worked in enough yards, taught enough riders and been round horses for enough years to know it's something I wouldn't have been happy with...

PM me if you like.

[~*Mango*~]

yeh but there are another 20 horses which they can use so its spread out equally so its not used that much every nite every week, the horses take the lessons in turns!

[Janette]

I know I'm a bit late joining this thread, but my horse is on WL and it suits me fine.
Firstly, I don't pay, except half the shoeing costs, and tack/vet insurance If the vet is needed for anything minor, THEY pay. My horse has the sort of temperament that is benefitting from many riders, she is becoming more chilled and laid back, certainly a more settled horse. She is treated as one of their horses - which is pretty good. She's the only horse on the yard on 3 feeds a day, and that's fine by her!!!!!! Because she is forward going, and needs to be asked things politely, she tends to scare off the ones who 'think' they can ride. Those who 'can' ride, fight for her. She has turn out at night, and all day Monday and Friday, and I get first dibs (natch) for lessons. I also get 'my' time with her, and shows, dressage comps etc. We are all working towards the same goal - to improve the horse's way of going.
Learners are not allowed to yuck ANY of the horses about, beside which, if anybody rides roughly, she reacts the same. She is a very effective mirror of her rider, which makes her very valuable for the working pupils.

[Stella2]

Janette, thats great. Its good to know that sometimes its done so well :)

[hel88]

i'm considering perm loaning with view to buy my own horse, and the only way i can afford it in terms of time (more than money) is by getting a sharer. which is similar to WL. i wouldn't go for WL mainly because said pony isn't appropriate for it. but i don't see a problem with a sharer. ive been a sharer for a long time, and ive occasionally been a far better rider than the owner, not being big headed, so i wouldnt encourage WL but definitely a sharer. also with a sharer you get to 'interview' and see the rider ride before you let her share.

[princesaysneigh]

grass or diy is probably better

[sweuzo]

as with many things i think it VERY much depends on the yard, my loan horse is part of a busy but very well run riding school, the owner lives on site and keeps about 8 of her own competition horses there, aswell as around 10 school horses and about 5-6 liverys, she is VERY particular about how things are done and i cannot tell you enough how good, experienced etc with horses she is...

everything works out well, the only things that may prove difficult to manage is how much access to your horse you are allowed, i generally get as much access as i want (about 3-4 days a week) as long as i let them know at least a day before, then they can organise lessons etc with regards to this, however when i let them know they will then tell me if i can come at the desired time/day, but it has yet to be a problem with them (they generally say that lessons come first before my use), i get saturday afternoon, sunday all day, my lesson on tuesday usually, and sometimes one other time during the week. so basically whenever i am actually free to do it... i find it very helpful and trust them completely, but it is their own horse afterall.

initially i had doubts but now i am actually doing it, it is very good.

for got to say the horses are brought in in the morning at 10.30am, then stabled for the day, groomed, stables cleaned throughout the day, groomed before and after every time they are ridden, then turned out together after all work has finished for the night in good lush fields i might say. there is ALWAYS somebody managing the stables throughout the day, and several things going on usually lesson on weekday evenings and on saturday mornings, group and one2one lessons, schooling, liveries hacking out, local shows, colleges coming to do their Equine course practicals, lets just say the horses are exercised so the work is spread out, a horse can be used for 2 hours consecutively with an hours break and work for one more hour a day maximum!

[Beausowner]

After recently going to a few riding schools for lessons I would never let my horse be used as a school horse - the ones I rode were less than co-operative (oh and even the instructors admitted that it was the horses, not me - after having so many different riders on them they seem to switch off. Also they start to think they are in charge, which in a lot of cases they are). If funds were tight I would go along with having a sharer I liked and who my horse liked, on DIY.

[Stella2]

If my funds got so tight that I was struggling, I'd go for grass livery. I just couldn't bare not to have control over who rode my mare :eek: