Rigs

[Tootsie4U]

I dont want to bother Chapsi with this question right now, but last night Bonfire had his blood drawn to test for elevated testosterone levels.

Apparently, Chapsi did the same with Pegs and found out he was a Rig. Yet, when they did the latest surgery, they couldnt find any testicular tissue. So, what causes the elevated levels then?

I asked the vet last night how accurate the blood draw is for this test and they said it was very efficient. But after Chapsi's story, I dont have much faith in it. Even if the levels come back elevated, it doesnt mean there are bits left in there. So, how is it treated then? Is there any hope?

This is a heafty question, not sure if anyone has any idea about the process.

[Peace]

I don't know how the process works in horses, sorry. But I do know that, although most testosterone is produced in the testicles (naturally :o ), ovaries and adrenal glands are capable of producing this hormone as well. Human women produce around a half milligram a day, if I remember right - compared to six or eight milligrams/day in men.

So is it possible whatever stimulates the adrenal glands to produce testosterone could go haywire, even in an animal with no testicular tissue?

[Jessey]

Testosterone is primarily produced in the testes but can be produced else where in the body. So if I remember rightly, the test can only be 100% if they are not rigs, ie no increased level. If an increased level is shown it could either be 'a true rig' ie bits left in there or it could just be that he is producing testosterone elsewhere in his body - so its not 100% at proving if hes a rig just that he has testosterone in his system, but either way the drug/supplement treatment will be the same although they can only operate if hes a true rig.
There is a new supplement called 'Rigcalm' which is meant for feisty gelding and stallions, and from what I have heard so far its pretty good.
My friend put her stallion on it this autum/winter as he got injured and couldn't be turned out and hes stabled/ridden with all the mares, she said it worked wonders, hes only young (5) but he hasn't bothered about the mares at all and she said it generally calmed him down and made him easier to work with (hes not the easiest horse to handle).
Good Luck

J

[KarinUS]

How long will you have to wait for the results, Toots?

Here's a piece of information- not sure how useful it is but here it is:
High levels of Testosterone are bad for men with prostate cancer because testosterone make the cancer grow faster.
Studies have shown that plant based fats decrease testosterone:
After their surgeries, the men's tumors were compared with those of men who had identical demographic and clinical characteristics. Men on the diet showed significant drops in cholesterol, free testosterone and total testosterone levels compared with the patients to which they were matched. In addition, patients with early-stage prostate cancer on the flaxseed diet had decreased prostate-specific antigen (PSA) levels, which reflect the spreading of the cancer.

Not sure if it would make a difference to a horse but horses usually don't mind eating ground up flax seed (Missy gets 1/2 cup a day) so this might be a natural way to reduce testosterone a little bit?

But I am sure your vet will have some suggestions once the results come back! :)

[anuvb]

I can see why you are asking, and unfortunately I don't know the answers. However, I would caution against general web-searches and so on for the time being and just ask your vet directly. There is a lot of misinformation out there. Whilst NR is continually a helpful resource, unless there is an endocrinologist on the board then worrying about this right now along with everything else may only serve to confuse the matter.

Alternatively - or if your vet doesn't give satisfactory answers - you could try Bristol (UK) vet's school; there was definitely a group there at one point studying endocrinology in horses. If you would rather go closer to home, then try contacting one of the US vet schools directly. They are much more likely to be able to give you a factually correct answer.

[KarinUS]

However, I would caution against general web-searches and so on for the time being and just ask your vet directly. There is a lot of misinformation out there. Whilst NR is continually a helpful resource, unless there is an endocrinologist on the board then worrying about this right now along with everything else may only serve to confuse the matter.


True about the misinformation. Not everything in print is correct. I do however feel fairly confident about information provided by the National Library of Medicine (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?) . Not trying to give medical advice or anything but I am assuming Tootsie is just a bit anxious and passing the time by reading up on the subject (cryptorchid) might make her feel a little bit more comfortable until the vet calls back with results and a plan of action?

[Tootsie4U]

To be honest, Im expecting negative results. I dont think he's a rig.

I was just a bit taken back that the vets diagnosed Pegs as a rig, went in there and found nothing. And now, Chapsi still has no answers or reasons. Even with the testing, they couldnt do anything for him. Bonfire isnt as extreme as Pegs, but it does put a damper on my hopes for his future.

<edit> and also, in speaking with Harry here, he tends to think that Bonfire's dominance will always require a knowledgeable hand. In fact, he suggests that I strictly limit the amount of 'green' people ever handling Bonfire as if I do get the behavior sorted, Bonfire can easily resort back to it in the wrong hands. So, in effect, this will not be something I'll ever fix - all I can do is 'manage' it. :(

[anuvb]

Karin

I wasn't particularly referring to your post and certainly don't want to get into a debate about it. My initial post was a general comment regarding the complexities of Bon's behaviour right now and the need to exercise caution before jumping in feet first.

I am extremely familiar with the NLM and although whilst all work here is peer-reviewed - all the work here can be interpreted in a number of ways.

Often, reading up on a subject does not serve to calm what is an already anxious the patient (or the owner of the "patient" in this case) but in fact causes more anxiety as the unfamiliarity with a subject means that intricacies are often over looked.

In the case of Bon, it doesn't hurt to be more cautious as it is an already difficult situation which I certainly don't envy tootsie managing her way through. I was just trying to offer some objective advice. No offence was intended towards your post - but I am sorry that you have interpreted it that way.

[Tootsie4U]

She was just being "mother anuvb" as she always has been for me, and which I greatly appreciate :)

[anuvb]

"Bless you my child!!!" :p :p :p

...ah it's good to be back - warts 'n' all!

[cvb]

Toots

Am not an expert, but I seem to remember something about finding stray testicular tissue in the abdominal cavity being a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Unfortunately nature isn't neat enough to just leave the vet with a clear and obvious "undescended testicle" to whip out :(

Plus, when they do find clear identifiable material to whip out - if they leave the slightest bit behind it can regrow, and is even harder to identify and remove second time around.

Its a bit like if you do dissection in Biology at school - the real thing NEVER looks like the picture in the book :mad:

[KarinUS]

Good Luck with Bon whatever it is! :)

[KarinUS]

:) Oops

[Cheko]

In the 70s I bought an Exmoor gelding who turned out to be a rig. He was fine if kept with geldings but was very stalliony when there were mares around. He would jump into their field and actually mate them. Fortunatley, none ever got pregnant. He was a nice little ride, until he heard, saw or smelled a mare, then he was unmanagable. He also used to fight the other geldings, like a stallion would. He could be very a fantastic ride (I always took him out on my own) but with other horses, he was a bit (to say the least) wild. One day I was riding him on the road and he heard what must've been a mare whinny. He bucked me off on the road and run off in that direction. I eventually gave him away to a woman who wanted a gentle pony (which he was when no mares were around) for her daughter who was slightly disabled. They had no trouble with him and kept him until he died. :eek:

[nix]

Hi Tootsie

I had the same tests done on Prieto. His behaviour is similar to how Pegs' was and although we'd made some headway with his behaviour, with the onset of Spring things seem to be going backward a lot of the time :( .

There are two tests to determine whether a horse is a "true" rig (cryptorchid) or not. The first one is the Oestrone Sulphate determination test which shows whether there is excessive hormonal activity. The second test (hCG dynamic test) determines whether testosterone is produced by the horse when a stimulant is introduced. With both tests it usually takes 5-7 days to determine the results.

It is possible for a horse to test positive in one or both tests and not have a retained testicle or testicular material. Very occasionally geldings produce excessive hormones on a node in the adrenal gland, which means that the horse shows the same symptoms as a "true" rig. This gland cannot be operated on and it cannot be removed due to its vital role in the horse's system.

Hope this helps.

[Tootsie4U]

Thanks Nix. It helps me understand!

If I may be bold and ask, what were the results on your boy?

Do you happen to know how its treated if it does turn out to be from an adrenal source?

[nix]

Hi Tootsie

Pri tested positive on the first test, but negative on the second. I've started him on the Global Herbs supplement "Rig Calm" and doing a lot of ground work with him at the moment.

Only a tiny percentage of horses are true rigs and even rarer still for the adrenal gland to be involved. I cannot find any recommended treatment if the hormones are produced from an adrenal source, but a herbal hormone balancer may help and I know that Regumate has also been helpful with some riggy geldings.

[Mehitabel]

<edit> and also, in speaking with Harry here, he tends to think that Bonfire's dominance will always require a knowledgeable hand. In fact, he suggests that I strictly limit the amount of 'green' people ever handling Bonfire as if I do get the behavior sorted, Bonfire can easily resort back to it in the wrong hands. So, in effect, this will not be something I'll ever fix - all I can do is 'manage' it. :(

i could say the same about my old git though - and he is a perfectly good riding school pony. in the past he has broken 2 arms, caused several hospital visits and given people stitches, chased someone up a tree, the list goes on.

i do think that something specific is triggering this recent bout of behaviour, it is so much more extreme than anything before. i agree he will not be 'anyone's horse' but don't panic about his future yet - easier said than done, i know. there are capable riders and owners out there, should it come to parting with him.

[chev]

And I'm another who could echo that with Gelfy.

I've spent years trying to work round his quirks and foibles, and if I did have to hand him over to someone else, it would be difficult finding someone who could happily handle them - but not impossible. Gelfy regularly reverts back to less than wonderful behaviours. There are a lot of ponies and horses who do. There are, however, a lot of people who can handle that - don't give up just yet.

I've known one true rig - who wasn't in the least bit riggy in his behaviour. He was diagnosed after covering a mare successfully.

I've also known a couple who blood tested as rigs but again showed no retained testicular material - in both cases the vets involved felt that it was probably tiny scraps of tissue that were impossible to find in surgery but enough to cause elevated testosterone levels. For both it was a matter of management.