trotting and kicking!

[sophie33]

This is a very silly question but...
In my last couple of lessons I had horses that needed a lot of pushing on. My instructor was constantly telling me to kick harder! She did complement me at the end of the last lesson, though, that I had got much better and got a nice trot out of my lazy horse (+ a not nice canter - but any canter is progress for me). However, that had more to do with the whip than my leg and I do find it hard to kick hard while doing the rising trot. If the horse is forward going and it is just a question of squeezing its no problem but kicking is different. Am I meant to kick while I sit (which I can manage but I tend to lose my rythm a bit) or should I be able to do it while I'm rising!
Sorry for stupid confused question but any answers would be helpful.

[alfie]

im having lessons with my eight year old cob gelding, and we are at the trotting stage. you are meant to kick when you come down then rise again. like you when i kicked him on the rythem went out the window!! :( but things have moved on now and im not saying its perfect but it's more 90% now all i can say it does get easier, keep going! :)

[ajhainey]

I'm almost sure you should push as you rise - which I find easier anyway...however I know my instructor tells people to do either until they get their balance...

Its just a matter of time - stick with it!

aj xx

[Tootsie4U]

Actually, ideally, you should *squeeze* as you rise. Its easier to coordinate while you sit, so you're told to do it when you sit as a beginner.

As your coordination gets better, you'll be told to do it on the rise because the squeeze influences the inside hind as it lifts off the ground (impulsion).

[sophie33]

Okay - thanks everyone! I will to do it as I rise at my next lesson and see if I can manage it.

[Wally]

Don't kick him at all, any riding instructor who tells you to kick a lazy horse should be kicked round the place themselves.

Horses are not generally lazy they have been made this way by instructors allowing them to be kicked. Kick any of mine and you'll do the wall of death in the school.

Make sure your balance is not gicing the horse mixed messages, are you truly in balance? I find the horse is unwilling to go if the rider is not truly in balance, your body is says stay slow, so you are told to kick harder and harder, the horse thought he was doing the right thing, he finds no matter what he does he gets kicked so he just switches off.

I have been given "lazy" horses to ride......they are not lazy they are confused and jaded.

Please don't kick or even think of it in your head as kicking. A kick is a violent action and has no sublte levels. try squeezes and nudges....if you shout with your legs all the time the horse will, and by the sound of it has switched off.

[sophie33]

As a beginner the one thing I am sure of is that I'm not always in balance - maybe never - but I hope that isn't true! However, surely I will only get better if I can get to sit on a horse that is moving forward!
Your right, course, I shouldn't have used the word 'kick' but to be fair to my instructor - she has only used kick after my nudges, and squeezes have failed to achieve anything! I ride three horses in lessons and one of them is very responsive, and I am never told to kick him, nor do I do so. However, the other two are harder to get going. Of course that is my fault (and the thousands of beginners who went before me) but I do have to 'push' them harder - should I never do this by kicking (if gentler measures have failed to work)?

[Jojo_82]

These are fairly hard posts to reply to, as without seeing you ride and giving pointers/instruction from the ground, it is quite limiting. However, I'll try to help! :D

As Wally said, most importantly you need to make sure you're in balance with the horse. As soon as you park your bum in the saddle, ask yourself:
"Am I in perfect balance?"
To check this, ask your instructor to make sure your stirrups are of equal length and ask her to check your "true lateral balance" from behind (she should know what you mean). Once you are sitting squarely, then look at your hands, arms and rein contact.
Do you have an adequate rein contact (you should be able to feel the horses mouth at the end of the reins)?
Are your elbows bent and thumbs on top? (If the arms are straight and your hands are in tesco-trolley-pushing-position, the 2 bones in your forearms will cross and become much more rigid against the horse's mouth and he will resist you more).

You should ride with your hands up slightly and imagine you have a tray of expensive silverwear across your lower arms... you don't want to drop this! :(

Most importantly, it sounds like your leg position may need to change slightly. If you watch some of the top dressage riders do a test, it looks like they hardly move in the saddle, everything is effortless. However, speak to them when they come out of the ring and they are breathless where they have worked sooo hard. :cool:

Instead of lifting the leg off the horse's sides and back on to push him forwards, you should be constantly squeezing from the calf. You have to "ride like you have the winning lottery ticket between your calf muscles and the sides of the horse!" Therefore, you are constantly squeezing with these muscles (like your trying to touch your heels together)...or you will lose millions!! :eek:

To do this, relax the leg down into the stirrups, allowing the heel to drop to the floor, turn your toe out slightly (no more than 45degrees) so the calfs are subsequently pushed against the horses sides, relax the knee away from the saddle fractionally, and keep your hip and thigh nice and soft and relaxed. The part of the leg that helps to secure the whole of your body position is the lower leg and calf. Make sure you are sitting with your bottom tucked underneath you, right on the bones in your bum!

When you ask the horse forward, keep a consistent rein contact and work on getting the horse's bottom underneath him. I.e hold the contact fairly short (but with soft hand and a bent elbow to allow flexion) and constantly squeeze from the calf. It will be hard work doing this until you have conditioned this to your way of riding, however, if done correctly with your instructor's advise, should help to improve things. If the horse is still sluggish, a quick flick with the whip behind your leg will not hurt.

Have a look at this:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/Jojo_82/Random/dressage2.bmp

You can see her knee is turned out marginally and she is riding forward from the calf. Lifting the leg off and kicking will only make you unstable and deaden the horse to the leg (i.e...ignore it!! :) ) don't tense the upper body as you ride like this, concentrate on relaxing and breathing, feel the movement of the horse through your hips and thighs and squeeze forward firmly from those calf muscles!

Give it a go anyway and let me know how you find it and if you need any more help with it! ;)

Here are some more pictures to have a gander at!

Best of luck!

Jo xxx

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/Jojo_82/Random/dressage3.bmp
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y21/Jojo_82/Random/dressage.bmp

[sophie33]

Thanks Jo for troubling to send such a detailed reply. What you say sounds really good. And I think its true that when I got the horse going better last week I was managing to squeeze my calves against the horse's side. I am certain though that although my arm and hand position might be okayish (some of the time), my legs are always too far forward and I don't keep my lower legs still enough. I will read your message again before I head off to my lesson Friday and try to put it into practise!
Thanks

[Jojo_82]

Good luck!

Just keep your weight into your heels and by really squeezing with the calves it should help to keep everything in place!

Let us know how it goes!

Jo xx

[RachelEvent]

The key to using a lighter aid, is in the release.

If you ask gently initially, and there is no reaction, you can slowly increase the strength of the squeeze - as Jojo describes, but as soon as there is the slightest reaction from the horse you should remove the pressure. For example, even if you are aiming to do a transition from walk to trot, and you put an aid on, and the horse reacts by walking faster, you should still release the pressure as a praise to the horse reacting correctly albeit not enough. As you repeat the aid, the horse should learn increasingly to respond to your lightest aids. The reason a squeeze should be used instead of a kick, is that the squeeze can increase gradually, whereas a kick is a comparatively uncontrolled movement.

Horses can feel a fly land on their back, so they are all able, no matter how 'lazy' they are perceived to be, to respond to light aids.

[Pickles]

Echo the above, but also note you said you felt his going forward in the end had more to do with your use of whip than leg.

A flick of a schooling whip behind your leg as soon as the horse does not respond to your leg is much better than carrying on with stronger and stronger leg aids. If he responded to the whip then don't worry that you did not persevere with the leg, it's not a competition to see who can't walk after the leson!

[roxycutie]

As you post you squeeze with your heels. :)

[Wally]

Don't use your heels this will neccessitate you raising your heel to use it, think of it more as the inside of your calf.

I too reccomend the proper use of a schooling whip instead of belting a horse with your legs. AS soon as you have asked if the horse does not respond immediately a quick touch with a schooling whip will soon get him listening to your leg again.

Ask yourself whether you'd like to be kicked every few strides of get your bum pinched once in a while.

[Bay Mare]

Ask yourself whether you'd like to be kicked every few strides or get your bum pinched once in a while.

Depends who is doing the pinching ;)

I was always told that it didn't really matter when you 'squeezed' and that there were different reasons for squeezing when you rise and for when you sit. Most beginners/novices find it easier and more stable to squeeze when they sit which is why it's often taught this way, it's better that you have a stable position and leg position than worry too much about squeezing and rising at the same time. Squeezing on the rise has an influence on the hind leg coming through (helps engagement) though at higher levels you're going to be riding in sitting trot anyway.

I agree with using a schooling whip behind the leg to back up the aid rather than whacking great 'pony club' kicks though :)

[carrimclaren]

Must be something in the water round here

I ride like an idiot then by the sounds of it. The person who taught me told me that my mare is the sort that you always need to be giving her little kicks as she's a lazy horse who needs waking up.

I was pretty sure that this wasn't quite the way forward and wasn't "proper" riding but as i'm pretty inexperienced i didn't argue. After reading quite a few posts over the last couple of months on here i'm now really confused. I tried myself one schooling session of stopping the leg flapping/kicking mentality and when she wouldn't move on i flicked behind the girth. I ended up ditched on the floor because she resented the tap behind the girth :rolleyes:

So basically you ask for upward transition with one nudge, if not answered stronger nudge then flick behind the girth with whip as last resort? Once in upward gait take heel away? Until you start to lose impulsion or you want to move up a gait?

Am i right in the above? Or have i got it wrapped round my neck? :o

[xXSundanceBayXx]

I have always been taught to "Squeeze" when you sit down in the trot and rest when you rise

[Tootsie4U]

Ask once, then tell.

I personally dont enjoy a ride if I've got to squeeze every other stride to keep the horse going. Personally, I expect that the horse has a job to do and he do that job until he's asked to do otherwise. How much simpler is that!


If you're certain the horse has understood the request the first time but has ignored it, then there is no second time asking. Instead, there is a consequence (crop) for ignoring your cue the first time. If you go with the two nudge rule, the horse WILL learn that there will be two nudges before he's MADE to trot. He'll only then learn to respond to the second nudge rather than the first. AS WITH ALL TRAINING, once you get what you asked for, you STOP the request. So, yes, once he's in trot, you take your heel away as a way to say 'thank you'. If the horse falls back to walk once you take your heel off, start over.

If you're constantly nudging/kicking/squeezing the horse learns to tune the request out because there is no reward in it.

Im certain your horse jolted forward because she did take offense or was taken by surprise. But, thats to be expected. Next time, grab a bit of mane and try again. After a few times, she'll learn. But, use the whip sparingly and only when you need it - to back up the aid. If she takes the trot with the first squeeze, dont use the whip. Always ask first, then tell.

[Sam and Blake]

when i learnt to ride i was told that it wasn't how hard you tapped, its where you tap.and not to kick.and it always worked for me. Also if your just trying to kick the whole time your going to be doing lots of jiggling about which makes it harder for the horse to stay balanced and keep going.and if you keep just kicking with your legs, your horse is probably going to start ignorin you.tap to get the transition and then give a little tap evrytime u feel liek your horse is gna stop or slowing down.its best to keep your upper body as still as possible and obviously rise if your doing rising trot.and if the horse is really just ignoringn you just use the crop as a last resort as if to say oi you wake up and listen.hope i havnt offended or patronised you.and actually thinking about it i cnt remember wether i tap as i sit or rise.i'll have to see next time i ride.i think i tap/sqeeze as i rise.by that i dnt mena everytime i rise i mean when he needs a wake up tap with the legs.btw sorry if i echoed or put exactly the same as everyone else i didnt read the whole thread.good luck.

[hApPiNeSs]

i was taught not to do anything with your legs - just squeeze them into trot (if they dont listen a flick or tap with a whip) and then leave them be until you start to feel them slow down - then you can use another leg aid.

if you are squeezing every other stride how can the horse tell if you actually want him to go faster? ;)

[TWH Addict]

As my mare is "non trotting" and as a novice rider when I first got her I used to squeeze gently and make a clicking noise. Now my legs hang loose and a simple click of my tounge will get her to step up a gear into running walk. Only problem I get is stopping as when you say woah.. she stops.. dead stop instantly! It can be kinda disconcerting at times.

Im also having lessons on an TB at a local school, and they basically echo RachelEvents post.

[PromiseMe]

When i first started riding those lazy horses...my instructor said the same thing...kick harder! She was literally like "How do i teach someone to kick harder?!' haha!

Many people kick (I had this problem, and still do sometimes!) backwards onto the horses belly. Try not to swing the leg back and keep it right at where youd normally put it, closer to the girth area.

Oh and trotting and kicking...I just kick when I rise.

The thing with lazy horses.... when they slow down, kick, and they'll go at a good pace - so leave em a long there (give those legs a rest! lol) and as soon as they slow down, kick again. Eventually some will get it - "if i slow down, i get kicked. BUT if i go in a good pace, i get left alone"
Hope that makes sense.

And I know everyone's like - squeeze, dont kick. Of course, dont kick if you can squeeze. but Some horses are so deadsided that those squeezes are NOTHING to them (with zippo effect!), they completely ignore. Its funny, cause with some horses, squeezes sends em flying!

Those lazy horses! But some of em really make us better riders huh!

[carrimclaren]

Some horses are so deadsided that those squeezes are NOTHING to them (with zippo effect!), they completely ignore.


I'm confused now because surely the kicking is why they are so deadsided? So kicking them more will just deaden and confuse them more?

[sophie33]

As the complete novice who started this thread I shouldn't really comment. But my (new found) understanding is that the real problem is that as a beginner my squeezes are not very effective (in my case because of my dodgy leg position) - even with an unresponsive horse a more experienced rider could more often get them going by squeezing. However, when squeeezing fails the whip is kinder and more effective than kicking and (according to my teacher) if you squeeze twice and it fails use the whip straight away so that the horse learns to listen to the squeezes!
In my last lesson I did try to implement this - and found that things went better.

[Casey76]

Then, of course you have the split personality horse (Leon), who needs strong, assertive aids at the beginning of the lesson, then halfway though, you have to change to very light delicate aids, else he shoots off :rolleyes:

[Tootsie4U]

Now my legs hang loose and a simple click of my tounge will get her to step up a gear into running walk.

May not be any concern to you TWH :), but watch out for that! There's some nasty competition in the showring who'll have bystanders cluck at horses to have them transition when they're not supposed to and then you've just lost points! :o

Voice commands are great and very useful, but dont let them replace the read aids.

[TWH Addict]

hehe good advice.. Txs Tootsie :)

[hApPiNeSs]

haha never heard of that! :D

thats evil!!! :eek: :D

[stevielee]

the horse i used to loan i think was pyskic (cant spell) Because he would do what i wanted before i asked him. Some people might think this is bad manners but i think it was great lol. Just fout id share that with yuo because i neva carried a stik and hardley ever used my legs . Wish i still had him :( xxxxxxxx

[chickflick1066]

Having just had my first 'proper' lesson, since i've had Stumpy, today and I have exactly the same problem as sophie33. Although technically I have been riding for six yrs, it was my first lesson in 3yrs so now I feel like a complete novice!

Stumpy is what I wouldv'e classed as 'lazy' before reading this post! I have such a struggle to keep her trot at a nice pace, keep her on the outside track (she likes to wander to the centre) and to also remember my position etc all at once! If I concentrate specifically on one thing....BAM!....something else goes wrong!

I was so tired at the end because it was such hard work! Any of you knowledgeable people got any advice!