Lunging .... contradictory? Us???

[Bay Mare]

Lunging the horse

As we all know NH tends not to favour lunging. A lot of *us* on here tend to agree with their point of view or, at least, can understand where they're coming from.

Lunging the rider

Every time anyone says anything about their seat or balance we all say "get some lunge lessons".

SO

if we don't really agree with lunging horses where are we going to get the horses to use for lunging the riders?

I'm obviously in need of a life :)

[katefarmer]

Good point!

I use a bit of lunging mixed in to help the riders - and also sometimes use the round pen instead of the lunge.

Cheers

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

[Tootsie4U]

Who says to not lunge the horse? Serious question.

I do alot of NH with my horse and lunge him weekly. While lunging, If I get lazy and forget about my body language he'll immediately slow, turn his head and look at me for the next direction. He learned to do this in our NH lessons. Ideally in lunging, you dont really want that to happen. But, in any case, the horse should adapt to what he's being asked to do. It actually helps him learn and keeps him sharp.

And, one of the fundamental purposes of NH is to teach your horse to be a more *well rounded* equine (rounded, not meaning as in collection :D).

[Yann]

Monty Roberts / Kelly Marks amongst others are against lunging mainly because of the strain it puts on the horse's frame and the unbalanced way it potentially makes them move. They recommend long reining instead, which as well as being better physically by all accounts, also tend to be a more relevant as a training exercise to riding.

[Tootsie4U]

But whats that have to do with NH training principles?

That is only a side you can take relative to physical issues. I wonder if he has any reining or barrel racing going on out on his ranch in CA? :rolleyes:

[chev]

Moderation in all things, I guess. If lunging is generally not used to avoid the potential physical issues, maybe it can be used occasionally for rider lessons without the same level of risk?

Or maybe I should get OH to invent a mechanical lunge horse - a simulator on a circle? ;)

[Sooty]

Yann, that's really interesting. I lunge Zara regularly (love to watch her moving around!) - 15-20 minutes of walk and trot 2-3 times per week. I have found that it has helped tremendously with her balance....

[Yann]

Tootsie, I was only answering the question, it's not something I have much of a view on;) it's just a horse welfare issue I suppose, and has been backed up by research apparently.

According to what he's written Monty Roberts has always been careful not to overface the youngsters physically that he's brought on, I can only assume his opinion on the subject stems from that, and also from the fact that lunging strongly resembles a join up with no invitation in at the end of it? I suppose that would be the NH angle if there is one.

On the last point I know he's had a long association with reining and western showing, but not barrel racing that I've ever heard. Isn't reining basically western dressage?

[Harry Hobbes]

SO

if we don't really agree with lunging horses where are we going to get the horses to use for lunging the riders?

Parelli's Circle Game (on the 12-foot, 22-foot, and 45-foot lines), Branaman's lariat circling, Lyons' Round Pen Reasoning, Cox/Hunt/Cameron/et al round pen work, and Roberts' Join Up are all examples of training that uses lunging of the horse in the round pen (i.e., having the horse travel in a circle around the handler).

The fact that one may not have a traditional lunging halter and lunge line attached to the horse does not mean that one cannot lunging the horse: It's not the equipment that defines "lunging", it's the action. So lunging can also occur when working the horse at liberty, or with non-traditional equipment.

And lunging, in whatever form, is an integral part of training the horse using the methods derived from the Dorrance School (and other schools as well I suppose).

Best regards,
Harry

[Bay Mare]

Just to clarify, I was talking about the 'traditional' meaning of lunging. I was really pointing out the disparity between opinions on working the horse and working the rider and the fact that we can't lunge the rider in the 'traditional' sense if we don't have horses who are trained and happy to lunge (in the traditional sense).

Who says to not lunge the horse? Serious question.

A lot of people these days advise you not to lunge the horse no matter what the age. I wish I could find the article but there was one recently that talked about the effect of lunging on the muscle development and balance etc and how long reining was much better from this point of view.

I'm not expressing an opinion on whether lunging is good or bad either. I do, very occasionally, lunge Saff though I do prefer long reining (now I've been taught how to do it :) ). She seems to prefer it too and is a lot more balanced and forward going than on the lunge. Her trot on the long lines is a million times better than on the lunge. She's done a lot of lunge work so it's not that she's not been lunged before.

A mechanical lunge horse would be a great idea and great fun too (and wouldn't buck just as you're stirrupless and reinless :eek: ).

[Stella2]

Can't remember where, but in something I was reading of Kelly Marks, she said that her views on lunging were sometimes overstated by others! - that she wasn't entirely against it, if done properly and in moderation, but that she prefers to long rein herself!

Also Richard Maxwell (who I like because he is happy to try things from various schools of thought (doesn't promote his own products) and believes that we should do what works with our horses so long as its respects their welfare) says that he used to avoid lunging and he also did his join up always in a round pen because that what was he himself was taught. However he has learned through experience in recent years, that a round pen isn't necassary and lunging is not only not bad if done properly and in moderation, but also that its perfectly possible to do 'join up' on the lunge!

I have done join up with two horses perfectly successfully without a round pen, but I also lunge in moderation without problems and I have done join up on the lunge in the past. Flora certainly makes it clear that she understands the difference! She is very joined up and lunging doesn't cause problems for us. Of couse if overdone on done or done on too small a circle, it can damage the legs.

[Yann]

I think the main issue with lunging, as described in Perfect Manners at least is when it's done in a heavy lunging cavesson which puts weight on the nose and causes the horse to lean out to balance itself.

As far as join up on a rope goes, the book itself describes an alternative method of join up using a line rather than a round pen, as has been suggested the principle is the same. Richard Maxwell apparently switched to join up on a rope to save with the bother of using a round pen, or so I'd heard, though if the demo we watched last year is anything to go by he circles the horse ans then gets it to yield its quarters Parelli style rather than going through the whole lick / chew etc. process. I'm afraid he does sell stuff, he has a halter and leadrope on sale like everyone else:D

[Jacquie]

QUOTE=Tootsie4U
Who says to not lunge the horse? Serious question.

Pat Parelli doesn't feel lungeing is beneficial for a horse and stresses the circling game should not be turned into it.

This game is aimed at teaching a horse reponsibility and dependability. In PNH a minimum of two (maximum four) laps only should be asked for when using the 12' line and around eight to ten with the 22' line. ;)

[Stella2]

Yann - I'd forgotten about KM making that point on lunge cavassons in Perfect Manners ( its age :eek: ), but now you mention it, I remember thinking that made sense at the time. I don't use a cavasson myself.

I thought RM recommended use of a pressure halter and line and referrenced where they can be bought in his books, but doesn't sell his own stuff! I could be out of date on that though!

[kedwards]

I don't think there is a contradiction. I would assume that anyone who thought longeing horses was inherently wrong wouldn't longe for purposes of training a rider either. However, most of us do NOT think that it is inherently wrong. Yes, it can be done improperly or for too long. Also, there are other training exercises that may be better suited depending on what you are trying to achieve, but that isn't the same as saying that longeing is bad.

[FreedomStar]

I just learned something interesting this week about lunging. In addition to causing a physical strain, it is also more taxing for a horse to travel on a circle like that for more than 20-30 minutes at the max. According to my instructor, because the horse is traveling in a circle, he has to carry himself that much differently and put in more effort, versus riding in the arena for one hour on the straight. Just try riding your horse on a circle, he gets tired that much faster.

[Drummers mum]

I have to say that I have a very fat pony and I am using lunging as a way of exercising him when I'm short of time but I only do 10-15 minutes and I use my NH halter and 12" line.

I think I have read Parelli saying that it is pointless going round in "mindless circles" and I would have to agree, its boring after 5 minutes for me so just think how Drummer must feel!! Long reining is much more fun!

Parelli talks about lateral lunging and I have been trying this, I used the squeeze game to get me started but its hard work, Drummer either wants to come back to me or go out on a circle!

[casey]

Doesn't NH = common sense. Its a little known fact, that I done the M.R. preliminary certificate. (and have the certificates to prove :p ) And can honestly say, I haven't used an iota of it.

An all round knowledge of the horse, its bone structure/digestive system etc is what's enabled me to have a greater understanding of the horses I keep. And can work them accordingly.

I can't bear, these so called experts, that latch onto something. Something that has been used for years, and when used correctly can be a beneficial exercise.

:)

[Bacharel]

I just found this post and thought it to be quite interesting. I am big in NH and without it my horse wouldn't be the horse she is now. I have been using NH/Lunging for years now with other horses besides my own. I have never known a horse who has had muscle problems or anything related to this because of lunging. The only issue with it is that your horse (on its weaker side) will often carry their head to the outside to make them balanced in a small circle. Also very rarely do they need to be on a small circle.


I think the main issue with lunging, as described in Perfect Manners at least is when it's done in a heavy lunging cavesson which puts weight on the nose and causes the horse to lean out to balance itself.

I lunge my horse in a rope halter and a marine rope lunge line (clinton anderson) and there absoulutly no pressure on my horses nose only I pull when trying to get it her back. I do not lunge in a caveson. Also my lunging halter and lead I use as my regular halter, because of the specially place "pressure point" knots. These horse can only feel the knots when you pull and since they are placed percisly on the nose the horse responds quickly and effictively to what you are asking. You can not get the same responce with a thick leather/nylon halter.

[Tootsie4U]

My point is; Roberts, Parelli, whoever may not advocate lunging but their non-advocating has nothing to do with NH. Its merely a physical issue. From what I understood, the original poster said there was a direct relation to NH and disapproving lunging.

Reining is also called western dressage. Pick up any horse health magazine and you'll see that horses used exclusively for reining and barrel racing have very stressed legs at an early age. If Mr. Roberts takes a stand on physical negativities of lunging, then he should in regard to his beloved sport as well :p

From a personal standpoint, Im working on my NH right now and as such have just about done away with conventional lunging because the benefits of lunging NH style far outweigh the conventional means. In doing so, my horse has gone from leaning on the line like a maniac and taking the bend like a motorbike to a completely balanced fellow on a dragging line. Both are 'lunging' per say, yet have a guess at which form is better for his legs? So if the horse is balanced and comfortable, whats so bad about that?

Like with anything horsemanship (natural or conventional), if the horse is not physically (and even mentally) suited for the exercise, you will risk injury. Its our responsibility to make sure we dont overface the horse before he's ready.

[KarinUS]

I am guessing there are different lunging cavesons? Ours is definitely not heavy. It's really more like a halter with fleece padding and d-rings on the nose... :confused:
I wouldn't lunge for extented periods of time but I do think a lunge lesson every once in a while can be an opportunity to learn (for both - horse and owner). If you are always the one riding then you never get to see your horse in action...
If you are introducting something new then it may be easier for the horse to figure out for himself without having to balance a rider on top of it.
I also lunge to work on voice commands, etc.

[virtuallyhorses]

I haven't read through all the posts so hopefully I'm not being too repetitive but the reason that Parelli is 'against' lunging is not because of the activity itself but because of the way that people use it. He calls his 'lateral lunging' to try to differentiate his activity but it is lunging none the less.

What NH is against is mindlessly winding a horse around in circles with no purpose in mind other than to follow convention or to wear the horse out. Lunging as a training exercise, to perform a particular exercise from the ground etc etc are all acceptable to NH proponents.

[Mossy]

Re tendon strain.
Is there a critical diameter? Obviously it depends on the level of fitness of the horse, but I have pair of tradition length lunge lines which I have had problems with, leaning out, falling in, resistance etc, esp when used for two line lunging, when the inside line is very short indeed as it is the outside on that controls the radius of the circle. I also have pair of Richard Maxwell lines which are 32 ft long and we have much more success. Using one line I can lunge a full 20m circle, much better for warming up and we then reduce as and when required. Incidentally I often free school. Moss just charges round the school like an playful Chieftain tank :D, oh well it is fun and a new game. Conn has her charge around and then settles down and works. 20 m circles transitions etc, all that is missing is the lunge line. The radius of the circle is her choice and she never goes smaller than about 18 m when cantering. Maybe she is telling me something?