flashes

[*MiRi*]

hey all just wondering...

what is a flash? i know that they are attached to the nose band and stop the horse from doing something, but what?!? My firend has just put one on her horse at the moment to stop him going over the bit or something like that. What does that mean?

xox

[Colorado Sunset]

This is a flash:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Jo_525/fern.png

It is baisically an extra strap, from the cavesson (which should be done up tightly), around the horses mouth. It stops the horse opening their mouth as an evasion of the bit

Jo

[chev]

Neither flash nor cavesson should be done up tightly - or at least no tighter than normal. If it's properly fitted it should stay where it is without the need for tightening it.

Fit the cavesson as usual - you should be able to get two fingers between noseband and horse. The flash should certainly not be done up tightly - if it is you run the risk of pinching the cheeks and interfering with the action of the bit. It should be tight enough to stop a horse 'evading' the bit by crossing it's jaw or opening it's mouth - it should never be used to keep the horse's mouth shut. Tightening either part of teh noseband too much means the horse will be unable to relax his jaw and give to the bit - not only will it make him uncomfortable, it will also mean you create a resistant horse.

Not sure what your friend means by 'over' the bit though so can't offer any explanation there!

[Colorado Sunset]

chev- sorry, wrote that in a bit of a hurry, need to explain further what i meant. However, re the tightness of the cavesson:

baisically, i have always been taught that the cavesson needs to be done up tighter, by allowing space for two fingers between the horses' nose and the cavesson, once the flash is done up it will pull the cavesson down, creating unnecessary pressure. (hopefully this all makes sence, not sure if grammatically correct her :D ) the flash itself should not be very tight, just to prevent the horse opening it's mouth completely, evading the bit.

Jo

[cvb]

could be to "stop it getting its tongue over the bit" ? (i.e. the missing element is the tongue ;) )

i.e. on the theory that if its mouth is clamped shut, it can't get the tongue up and over ?

In theory they are supposed to stop the horse opening its jaw more than a certain amount, and to prevent some jaw crossing as well.

But you seem to see them being used far more often than is strictly necessary.

[Colorado Sunset]

agreeing with cvb, they are very often misused, often as an answer to a strong horse, even if its is not specifically evading the bit

Jo

[Greta]

It is a part of a cavesson noseband which stops the horse from evading the bit- i think it acts as a curb chain?!?! :confused:

[chev]

I see what you mean - but I think if the flash strap is dragging the cavesson down then the noseband isn't really that well fitting to begin with.

Totally agree they seem to be overused, although I think the fact that they're fitted as standard on many new bridles doesn't help. A few years back I remember a woman who grazed her mare next to ours buying a new bridle. The mare, who'd had a plain cavesson up til then suddenly appeared sporting a flash strap. When we asked why (she was about the sweetest mare to ride you could imagine) the reply was 'It came with the bridle...' :rolleyes:

[cvb]

It is a part of a cavesson noseband which stops the horse from evading the bit- i think it acts as a curb chain?!?! :confused:

Greta - no, not really. A flash can be "built in" to the noseband or can be a seperate attachment (to the noseband) The cavesson noseband is there as usual and there there is an extra strap which goes from front centre of cavession, round under bit and behind chin, and back again.

It doesn't act "as a curb chain" as it is not attached to the bit in anyway.

It doesn't STOP the horse evading the bit - what it does (if properly fitted) is stop the horse from getting beyond the point of control

When poorly fitted it basically clamps the horse's mouth shut :mad: which you could say prevents evasion - but not in a positive way through encouraging acceptance !

[Colorado Sunset]

chev- due to the fact that the noseband is attatched on the two sides of it (sorry, no makings sence). The cavesson is a circle, attached by the two sides to the cheek pieces, so the front of the cavesson can be pulled down slightly or up slightly. With the flash I find it pulls the front of the cavesson down, and the back of it up, and creating some pressure points around the horses nose, instead of lying centrally and flat.

Im very sorry about the confusingness of this :D

Jo

[chev]

Yep, I can see that :D . The only time I've used a flash was with an attachment (you know the little leather thingies you put on an ordinary cavesson - flash converter?) so it wasn't really an issue. The nosebadn it was on was flat not round, and the converter gives a wider 'join' so the whole thing stays flat anyway.

I can see how with an actual flash noseband it might be a problem.

Which does make me a bit :eek: at the thought of it really - a noseband that has to be tighter than is good just to stop it causing more problems.

[Colorado Sunset]

Its crazy really, if you think about it! you want the horse to work nicely for you, mouthing at the bit, well, playing with it, salivating, but clamping its mouth shut at the same time. At our yard virtually every horse has one, and they defenitely do not all need one. However, sidetracking slightly!, lots of (sorry, picking on one group, generalising, it shouldnt be done i know! sorry!) showjumping ponies, have so many gadgets on, just to look good, when all they need is a little more schooling.

Anyways, sorry about the mini rant, hopefully, miri, you have found out what you needed, if not, feel free to ask some more quesitons and between us we should be able to find an answer :D

Jo

[horseygal90]

Just a question about doing them up (sorry to hijack your thread!)

Should it be done up before or after the bit rings? (If you get what I mean)

[Sarah1710]

flashes should be done up in front of the bit so that it lies in the chin groove. A pic might explain it better... :D

[horseygal90]

Thankyou! That's better, I always forget!

[nirikina]

I remember reading on a previous thread that it also stablises the bit in the horses mouth, which you can see exactly from that picture.

[Sarah1710]

No, it shouldn't clamp the horse's mouth shut. They should still be able to bite you!! :rolleyes:

[meegz]

I've used a flash on both of the horses i've owned for two completely different reasons with my first it was because she'd open her mouth and lift her head up therefore completely evading the bit!! I put a flash on her and it kept her mouth shut and evading the bit once she realised she couldn't open her mouth she kept her head down and behaved herself but some horses may not respect it as much. I also used it when I rode her in her kimblewick to stop her putting her tongue over the bit.
With Moose i've put a flash on her because she's a baby and naturally wants to play about with the bit, the flash helps prevent this and stops her thinking about what's in her mouth and makes her listen to me instead :D
When fitting it you have to make sure the noseband is correct first and secure in it's position otherwise the flash will do nothing at all and it shouldn't be strapping your horses mouth shut but just tight enough to sit nicely and securely. Oh and it's not the best option if your horse is crossing it's jaw usually the best noseband for that is definetly a grackle and they're a bit harsher a flash is the nicer option.
Over the bit is exactly the same as over bent I think your friend might mean above the bit which is when the horses head is up in the sky.

Hope i've helped
Meegan :)

p.s the horse inthe pic is over the bit, over bent, oh and it's got a grackle on!

[Greta]

Greta - no, not really. A flash can be "built in" to the noseband or can be a seperate attachment (to the noseband) The cavesson noseband is there as usual and there there is an extra strap which goes from front centre of cavession, round under bit and behind chin, and back again.

It doesn't act "as a curb chain" as it is not attached to the bit in anyway.

It doesn't STOP the horse evading the bit - what it does (if properly fitted) is stop the horse from getting beyond the point of control

When poorly fitted it basically clamps the horse's mouth shut :mad: which you could say prevents evasion - but not in a positive way through encouraging acceptance !
Thanks- i needed that! I just love learning!

[JOJOBA]

I used to ride my horse in a flash because when I bought him he'd always been ridden with his tongue over the bit. I got him a bridle that fitted, and he didnt like that :p. Those of you who know him / have seen pics will notice he always holds his head strangely (often getting me accused of pulling his head in), and that's because he constantly tries to get his tongue over his bit all the time. He also plsys with his rebel tooth by rubbing his tongue on it.
I got him a flash after he did manage to get his tongue over once :p, because he cant do it a) with his mouth shut and b) with the bit held still.
I currently dont ride in a noseband at all though, as he doesnt really need one. His hacking bridle has a noseband, flash, gag and martingale though (strong horse).

xxx

[*MiRi*]

thank you people, i didnt know there was so much involved! i just thought you had to attach it on! :rolleyes:

jojoba - what is a gag?

and to eveyone else, i have seen so many horses/ponies with a flash on and have always wondered why. I know jenifer needs her flash on freddie as he does put his head high and other things youve mentioned ;)

thanks again

xox

[JOJOBA]

It's a type of bit.
This is the one I use - a 3ring dutch gag. Or bubble gag, I think it may be sometimes called.

http://www.cleesaddlery.co.uk/informationindex/images/bits/607.jpg

There are different types of gag bit.

That one works with a lever action - you attach the reins to either of the two bottom holes and the cheekpieces to the top one.
You can also use two reins or roundings on it.

xxx

[JOJOBA]

Here are some other gag bits, some arent that common in the UK though:

http://www.barnstormers.co.uk/acatalog/!bits620s.GIF

http://www.chicksaddlery.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/25576.JPG

http://www.bitsnmore.com/images/catalog/carolina_bits_web_ready/car3rng_b.jpg
Not too keen on that mouthpiece though :eek:

http://www.equips.com/browse/graphics/F5087.jpg

xxx

[angelfben]

i've put a flash on her because she's a baby and naturally wants to play about with the bit, the flash helps prevent this and stops her thinking about what's in her mouth and makes her listen to me instead

But I like a horse to mouth and 'play' with a bit and learn to accept it, just like everything else that baby's have to deal with - tack, a rider's weight etc. a bit in their mouth is a completely new concept and one that a horse should be given time to experiment with and learn to feel comfortable with...surely? :confused:

A flash forcing them to keep their mouth closed is an immediate 'fix' but can a horse learn to be happy with a bit if he's never been given the choice?

I don't know :(

[cvb]

Agree with angelfben - preventing an evasion does not create acceptance :(

BTW - the dutch "gag" (bubble bit) is actually not a true gag and is "misnamed" as such...

[martini55]

I think flashes are misused alot to be perfectly honest. You see so many horses with them who don't really need them. I bought Martini ridden in a dutch gag, flash and martingale. Now I ride her in a french link snaffle with no martingale or flash, even for jumping (at home, not sure how she'd be like away from home now). I just stick the martingale on for hacking out as that is when I need it.

I have also known people just to use them for the sake of it, almost like for fashion. It can get ridiculous.

[meegz]

I don't put a flash on my horse for the sake of it because i'm not like that, i'm very much not a gadget person.
Fair enough, yes the horse does have to learn to except the bit I know that, by saying 'playing' with her bit I think you've got the wrong idea if she was just 'mouthing' her bit I wouldn't feel the need to put her in a flash she was opening her mouth and moving the bit around it was near impossible to get her to even listen to was i was asking with my hand aids.
A flash really isn't that harsh at all if used properly and fitted correctly it's actually a very useful bit of tack and in my case my horse does need it. She excepts the bit once i've got a contact basically straightaway if she didn't have it i'd find it hard to even get a contact with her.

meegan

[*MiRi*]

thanks everyone for your opnions and your help!
was interesting to see what everybody thought

xox

[cvb]

meegz - at the risk of hijacking the post !

she was opening her mouth and moving the bit around it was near impossible to get her to even listen to was i was asking with my hand aids.

I read a book recently - recommended by Harry Hobbs - which really challenged my thinking on this.

The question(s) I end up asking are

- WHY is the horse opening their mouth like that ? (i.e. what am I doing that might cause it)
- what can I do differently that would mean the horse doesn't do that

by which I mean my own use of hand, rein, bit etc

The book I was reading was talking about bitting a horse when you first start it. But it equally applies to more established horses.

If I just use a flash, I don't ever challenge what is happening with my own riding, so the underlying problem is still there.

Shortly after this I was at a Mark Rashid clinic and it all just fitted in again - rider softness is absolutely key.

So if I ask, and I get a response I don't like - what can I change about the way I ask ?

I've ben riding for 35 years, am an AI, can get a reasonable tune out of most horses. But I cam back and applied this thought to my mum's Fell - who would go in an outline before this - and got a whole new level of lightness, response, etc.

Yes - I have used drops and flashes before. But I would hesitate to do so now without taking a really serious look at my riding.

[angelfben]

Echo CVB, I'm a strong believer in prevention rather than cure....what is it with flashes? It's virtually impossible to buy a bridle without one now! :rolleyes: (I've been searching for weeks..)

[colouredcrazy]

Echo CVB, I'm a strong believer in prevention rather than cure....what is it with flashes? It's virtually impossible to buy a bridle without one now! :rolleyes: (I've been searching for weeks..)

I agree! Foxy doesn't need any sort of complicated noseband (he wears a caveson because no noseband looks stupid on him) - but now that I'm trying to find a bridle without any extras, it's practically impossible! Oh well. I'll go up to Sandon and buy him a nice second hand one!

Ellie

[Kris R]

Cvb has made some very important points.

Next time you have tacked up your horse look at what you have on him in the way of extra gadgets, be it Flash nosebands, martingales and so on. If your horse looks like a trussed up chicken then perhaps you are not using the right bit.

If the bit isn't right your horse is going to try to evade it because quite simply he isn't comfortable and he is probably in pain. And what do we do ? (I did too once upon a time) we strap the horse up so he can hardly move and then we expect him to perform ! And what is more we find some 'worthy' excuse for doing it.

it doesn't seem very logical really.