Legs and stirrup length

[LindaAd]

Everyone tells me I ride too short - I've got short legs anyway - so I tried riding without stirrups, and then lengthening them out on a hack. The longer legs felt much softer, and Barney responded better to them, but they made me feel horribly insecure. So much that I stopped to shorten them again before the last bit home - down and up a steep and slippery road, full of scary dogs and lawnmowers lurking behind hedges - and I found my legs were shaking.
I wonder if I'm doing something wrong, or if it's just a case of getting used to the new position. They weren't so long that I had to reach down with my toes or anything like that.

I also found that when I took my feet out, my legs swung backwards to a straight-down position - presumably this is the point of the set-back stirrup bars on Heathers dressage saddle?

[Dizzy]

Just a thought, but are you sitting on your seat bones (they're making contact with the saddle) ? If you aim your seat bones forward, sitting on the fleshy part of your bum, you'll find it so much easier to lengthen your leg length. Also you want the most inner part of your thigh in contact with the saddle, (grab your underthigh so the flesh/muscle is behind and your knee in over) a good exercise is in walk to raise both legs up and away from the saddle (seat bones forward), turn your knees towards the saddle and let them drop. Highly painful, very tiring but does work. At the same time stay relaxed (lol!!)

Hope it helps

Lesley

[Silvia]

Linda: Yes, it's a matter of getting used to it. I felt exactly the same when I started to ride with longer stirrups. It takes a lot more balance because you can't hold on with your legs when they are in the correct position. My instructor said the shaking comes from tense muscels that are being stretched. It gets better after some time.
Dizzy: I imagine that turning your knee towards the saddle would drive your lower leg away from the horse. Same with pulling the underthigh muscles back. Or did I get it wrong?

[msp]

Hi Linda,

I think a lot of people shorten their stirups a bit before going out on a hack, so don't feel alone!

As you know, long stirups really don't work whenever you tense up. Its best to go up a hole or two while hacking so you don't tense up and loose confidence.

Practise somewhere safe without stirups, and with long stirups. You really need someone to watch what you are doing - A very common reason we lose the stirups is tiping forwards in the saddle (which throws the legs backwards and makes them effectively shorter). Your legs must come back into position because your pelvis is forwards/upright and your back is straight above it (which tends to feel a long way back), not because you're bent in the middle!

Have fun
Mark

PS. I've got Heather's book, and yes thats why she doesn't like General Purpose saddles. Dressage saddles, and hers, have the stirups further back. On the other hand jumping saddles have them further forwards, hence the GP compromise.


[Edited by msp on 19th May 2001 at 06:28 PM]

[Mossy]

All the above are right, comfort with long stirrups does come with practice. Ride without stirrups. letting your legs go to their natural position. Try to organise your seat to make your legs as long as possible. A hip, neck, heel line comes naturally when your bum is in the right place and is impossible without it. Having done that and got used to it get somebody else to adjust your stirrups to your new riding length. If you do it yourself you will bring your leg back up to it's old position without meaning to. Your calves will be wrapped around the horses belly, as per Heather's wet dishcloth.
Sorry MSP I have to disagree with you about shortening a hole or two for hacking. I would rather suggest concentrating on stretching and relaxing so you don't tense in the first place. F&M apart I often spend hours in the saddle and if my stirrups go up my knees are in agony after an hour and a half. Long stirrups and a good seat and I can stay there all day. Also if I had had short stirrups yesterday and tensed I would have been on the floor. I only got away with it as I rode very deep and relaxed and stretched leg and talked him down. My heart was going like a trip hammer though!
Silvia, your thoughts echo mine.
all the best

[Edited by Mossy on 23rd May 2001 at 07:54 AM]

[fionahogg]

If you think your stirrups are too short, then lengthening them to the 'correct' length straight away will make you feel very insecure. Working without stirrups will help so long as you think about developing a correct seat and absorbing the horse's movement by moving your seat bones with the horse's back movements. You need to learn to ride the horse and absorb the movement totally from your seat (i.e. not gripping up with your legs) so that when you get your stirrups back, you feel you are then able to lengthen them. If you have been riding with too short stirrups then you may be depending too much on them for security in the saddle - thus you feel insecure when that security has gone when you lengthen your stirrup.
I would say you need to develop more of an independen seat so that you don't rely on the stirrups and they can in turn be lengthened. Working without stirrups is only beneficial if you do it correctly - practice doesn't make perfect, only perfect practice makes perfect. Try lengthening your stirrups by a hole at a time, only going down to the next hole when you feel totally secure at the previous hole's length.
Stirrup length tends to vary greatly between riders, depending on the disciplines in which they partake. If I rode with my stirrups the 'reccomended' length - the stirrup reaching down to the bone on the inside of the ankle - when I do dressage, I would be riding too short. However, when I hack I tend to shorten them by about 4-5 holes because I do a lot of fast work and I ride mostly in cross country seat. I jump with my stirrups 5 holes shorter than my dressage length and go cross country with them 7 holes shorter. But I know people who only shorten by a couple of holes to go from dressage to jumping length.
It may take a while for you to develop a totally independent seat and therefore become completely unreliant on your stirrups, but you will feel much more secure in all aspects of your riding.

Hope this helps!

Fiona.

[Dizzy]

Silvia/Mossy, I know when you read it, it does sound as though thats what both those exercises do, but when you do them it makes quite a difference to you're leg position.

When I sit on a horse (especially after a long break in riding) even though I have the correct ear,hip,heel position and my seat bones facing forward, my knee caps face away from the saddle. My instuctor says the reason for this is, the way my thigh bone sits in my hip socket. The bone is supported by muscly type stuff (sorry don't remember the correct word) so to get a good upper leg contact, and turn my thigh bone in the correct direction and lengthen my leg length I do these and other exercises.

Though they are pretty hard to do, my position and capacity to use my legs correctly really improves alot. It doesn't draw my lower leg away from the horse, after I've done them and relaxed my weight down through my leg, my leg length and lower body feels as if its part of the horse (very difficult to explain, wish I could demonstrate).

The exercises are to stretch your leg joint ligaments (I remembered) in a way that helps you gain the correct leg contact with the horse. When you think the main of your leg aids come from the upper part of your leg, its essential to have a secure, relaxed thigh.

My instructor teaches along the same lines as Sally Swift, a chapter of her book (Centred Riding) is called 'Ride with your Bones'. She asks you to imagine you are a skeleton, and put your bones in the correct position, and sort of build your muscles around your bones. That way you will use and build the appropriate muscles and stretch some ligaments that are in normal everyday life are not used in that way. Some people are lucky enough to automatically sit in the correct position, unfortunately I'm not one of them.

Hope this explains my post. Try them and tell me what you think.

Lesley

[Edited by Dizzy on 20th May 2001 at 12:42 AM]

[Tammy]

LindaAd
I rode with really short stirrups and I am also a small person. After getting tired of aching knees I started gradually dropping my stirrups. I punched extra holes in the stirrup leathers so I could lengthen by half-inches instead of inches at a time and I think this really helped. An inch is a lot!! It took me two years to get to the current length and now I love it. Sitting trot is finally easy! It helps to ride bareback occasionally; I do it in the pasture. Good luck.

Dizzy
Just wanted to let you know I tried your suggestion of "hips at twelve o'clock" to halt. Worked beautifully! I had been using Heather's method of squeezing cheeks and upper thigh but I found that when moving the hips to 12:00 you automatically tighten the cheeks. My mare responded with more precision. Thank you!

[Dizzy]

Tammy, thankyou for your reply. When I was first taught this I was amazed at the response from the horse. I found that you hardly need to ask with the rien at all. My instructor never ceases to amaze me, I've ridden now for about 30 years (oh my god! I'm getting old), I've had intermittent lessons with Maggie over the years, intensive when Dizzy was at livery there, but I have started going back weekly (until F & M began) at the mo I can't go, and every lesson she turns up with some gem, they are so, so simple to do (apart from the exercises) and the response from the horse is 'I understand, I can do that'.

I'm happy to have been of help

Lesley

[LindaAd]

Thank you all for your replies - what I lot to think about! In fact it's much better now; I've been concentrating on relaxing, riding without stirrups, doing the legs off the saddle excercise and riding with one hand above my head. The stirrups are just above the sole of my boot now and they feel fine - I've even cantered down the bridle path and jumped a huge puddle (not MY idea!), and my instructor says my legs look much better.

Silvia, I'm sure you're right about the shaking - that cheered me up!

Fionahogg and Mossy - yes, I know it's long, but at least I feel I'm beginning to go in the right direction.

Tammy, that idea of extra holes is brilliant, I'll try it.

Dizzy, I've read that thing about pulling your thighs round before, but it doesn't seem to help me. And I find it hard to know which way my seatbones are pointing, too, in spite of studying Sally Swift.... And can you explain a bit more about hips at twelve o'clock? Does that mean you think of your hips as pointing inwards??

[Dizzy]

Linda, with your seat bones, you don't want your seat bones to be pointing down onto the saddle, this is uncomfortable for the horse, you need to relax your lower back and sort of imagine your sitting on the lower part of your back pockets. As you're sat at your computer now, sit up straight, you're seat bones will be on your chair directed towards the floor, now relax your lower back and point your seat bones in the direction of your key board, so that the fleshy/softer part of your bum is underneath you. I think of it as seat bones poke into the horses back, which will make them hollow, and stop your seat muscles from talking to the horse.

When you've got you're seat bones in place, and your leg in position, imagine you're sat in the middle of a clock face. Your hips are the key to distibuting your wieght. If you want to turn left, move your hips to 9 oclock, ask with the left rein and look in the direction you want to turn (imagine your eyes are in your chest) keeping your shoulders above your hips. Reverse this to go right, and for halt send your hips to 12 oclock, again try in your chair, and you'll feel what your seat muscles closing, which will help to block the forward motion of the horse, at the same time closing and releasing your hand, asking with the rien for halt.

Hope this explains, some horse/ ponies don't respond imediately, I'm riding one at the moment who has been slowed down using her mouth only and she is resisting halting, I suppose because my hand requests aren't as strong as she's used to, though she is slowing down. With her I'm using alternating squeezes with the rein which is helping.

Hope this helps you, let me know what you think,

Lesley

[Tammy]

LindaAd
I interpreted Dizzy's twelve o clock hips as simply moving both hip bones forward together. It worked for me as it also automatically requires the "cheek squeeze" that I had been using but is a little more precise.
Sounds like your stirrup is long enough! Just above the sole is good, isn't it?

Dizzy
I used to turn using the method you do but I tried Heather's method of advancing the hip and was astounded at the result. To turn left, simply lift the left hand about one inch and push your left hipbone forward with each stride. Try it at your next lesson and let me know how it worked for you...if your instructor doesn't mind experimenting!
I also tried using the aids you stated in order to attempt shoulder fore and it worked, just had to keep the inside leg for "the gas".

I approach riding with the same attitude as golfing. Everyone gives different methods, ideas and tips; I try them, keep what works and discard those that don't.

[Dizzy]

Tammy, I will try, I'm very like yourself, I love to hear and read all, and experiment.

I'm not sure yet whether I can restart my lessons because of F & M, our area has been hard hit and cattle were slaughtered on the farm that my instructor lives, so I'll have to wait until the all clear has been given. But I know Magie (my instructor) won't mind me trying something out. She also has a very open mind about riding.

Thanks, I'll let you know, hopefully in the near future,

Lesley