my first sping with pony re: preventing laminitis

[notpoodle]

looks like spring has started yesterday (angel has started moulting and the sweet itch is on its way in ...). the horses should be allowed back in the field soon, so im already worried about laminitis risks etc.

vet said best and easiest thing to do is only let her out at night when sugarlevels in the grass are lower. easier said than done, i i live 1,5 hours away from the yard and should be working 9-5 again soon (temping ...) and yard charges a fiver to bring in or turn out which would blow my budget :rolleyes:

is there anything else i could do? how about these muzzles? if she was wearing one of those during the day (am sure i could convince one of the grooms to stick it on her in the field in the morning and i could take it off again in the evening), would that help? how horrible/frustrating/annoying are the masks for horses?

pony is on the thin side at the moment (vet said that was a good thing this time of year ...) and has been stabled for 5 days a week for the past couple of weeks so am worried the new field would be a total shock to her system grasswise ...

pony is 12 ans has never had laminitis before, previous owners didnt do anytihing in terms of reducing grazing or preventing it.

and i dont have access to a starvation paddock ...

julia
x

[eventerbabe]

turning out at night is the best thing, as you said the sugar levels in the grass are low. muzzles are a good idea but i think it would be overkill on a pony with no history of laminitis, unless she has access to really rich grass. my pony developed it age 10 and there was nothing we could have done to prevent it (was stress induced). my advice is to just keep an eye out, look for the tell tale early warning signs (heat in feet, elevated pulse/breathing and strong digital pulse), oh and don't graze on land that has been fertilised, we reckon that was a contributing factor with our mare aswell (all the local farmers said the land at the yard wasn't suitable for horse grazing). may be worth feeding a probiotic (i use dengie XP) to keep the gut functioning well.

[notpoodle]

they don't fertilise the fields as such as far as i know. the turning out at night only is almost impossible to do for me at the moment as i live so bloody far away from the yard :rolleyes: (im hoping to move closer though should i EVER find a permanent job ...).

should i feed her something like 'safe and sound' you think?

i agree, a muzzle sounds a bit like overkill, but i'd rather be on the safe side just in case ...

julia
x

[eventerbabe]

remind me what safe and sound is again?? whats she fed on at the moment? all my lamanitic gets is a small handful of hi-fi lite, veggies, moody mare, formula4feet and dengie XP, along with oil and cider vinegar to aid stiffness. the point of the probiotic is to keep the gut moving. its an imbalance in the gut that can trigger an attack. i read somewhere you can even put a couple of spoonfuls of live yoghurt in the feed if you like!

if you go for a muzzle, i love the best friends one. its the only one that bonnie cannot get off (with the addition of a leather headcollar over the top). the greenguard rubbed her muzzle badly and was ineffective.

[notpoodle]

she only gets grass and the equivite pasture plus biscuits during the summer. currently (she's still stabled ...) she gets ad lib hay, a handful of alfalfa and a bit of garlic, along with the equivite biscuits.

i think safe and sound is like farrier's formula, it's by dodson and horrell and ive heard many positive things about the stuff. it's designed for those who are prone to laminitis.

julia
x

[AnneS]

Hi,

I tried the greenguard last spring too. Because I did not have the halter I took another one and put the muzzle on it. Her first reaction was confusion but soon she found out how to use it. After a while it make her sore and I put some nose protection on it. Then after a while I shortened the time she had it on. Short before midsummer I could take it off. There was another benefit for Ginger: the muzzle protected her from sunburn on her nose. :)
It is very important to watch the horse at the first time to see that it stays on, that the horse do not panic and actually learns to eat and drink with this.

I got some mean comments from other horse owners when I used the muzzle. They almost called me an animal tormentor. :( I ignored them. Better to hear some mean comments than to have a horse suffering pain.

The best thing to do is to make them get used to the grass. This means that they are in the field for a short time per day and gradual make the turnout time longer. Because all horse breeds can get laminitis they should get used to the grass.

Are there some other horse owners who maybe will do the same thing and can turn out/in yours when they turn out/in their horses?

[eventerbabe]

never heard any reports about it. our vets reccomend formula4feet. i've been tempted by the new blue chip lammy light, but if she doesn't need hard feed it would be a bit of a waste.

Just remember though, a feed suitable for lamanitics doesn't mean it will prevent it. my friends horse came down with laminitis 2 days ago, despite being on approved feeds and NAFs lamineze supplement.

[cvb]

notpoodle

confused :confused:

you said pony is 12 and has never had laminitis before, previous owners didnt do anytihing in terms of reducing grazing or preventing it.

so why do you think she is at risk now ?

We have a Fell who HAS had laminitis. What we do is keep a very close eye on his weight and condition. He gets weight taped every week, and we also check the "danger" areas for him - crest, fat pads over kidneys etc (by condition counting)

Then we manage his intake according to this. He's pretty stable doing this so we haven't needed any really drastic measures.

Because he DOES have a history, he doesn't get unrestricted access to lush grass. He does get turned out when the others do - but with a Best Friend muzzle on in the spring/summer/autumn. (Greenguard just didn't work with him - he got around it).

Our old guy is not laminitic, but lush grass makes him gassy - which pushes on his lungs and makes him wheezy (has had COPD/RAO). My mare does not have either laminitis or RAO, but puts on weight at the drop of a hat so follows the same regimen as the Fell but without the muzzle :D

She condition counts fine (has a slight gutter but is quarter horse build, so to be expected) BUT - when I tried to do a saddle template the other day it was hard to find her ribs. So I know we are not being mad restricting her intake a bit :rolleyes:

If your pony does not have any real risk factors, sensible management should be fine, without going to extremes of changing diet, using a muzzle etc

[Big Ears]

mine is already on a starvation paddock with hay.

the greenguard muzzle doesn't work, i have the Best Friend one which I haven't used yet.

people commented last year that I blindfolded my horses as they were wearing fly masks and reported me to the RSPCA......so I guess this year with muzzle and fly mask she will be a real hannibal lector.....

as she managed to get laminits last year i am hardly inthe best position to tell you how to avoid it - it came on suddnely, one day and that was it, off for 9 months.

[notpoodle]

@big ears: they *what*? these people would have a field day with my pony ... 'oh look at the poor thing, with a rug in the summer and blindfolded as well' :rolleyes: what did the RSPCA have to say about that one?

@ cvb: i just think there's a chance she's been lucky so far and i just want to make sure it doesn't happen :rolleyes: my friend's horse (a warmblood) got laminitis for the first time last year. he's in his 20s and was very sensibly managed (very restricted grazing et al) and it happened just like that.

do you think i should just be careful and take action when she starts piling on weight or shows any signs?

julia
x

[eventerbabe]

Julia, i had someone report us to the SSPCA for using a muzzle and the SSPCA told this busy body where to go and stop wasting their time. laminitis can be triggered by so many things and theres no way you can stop it happening if its gonna happen. my pony got stress induced laminitis, my friends show horse also got stress induced laminitis. we couldn't have prevented it coz we couldn't control their environments 24hours a day (i.e. we couldn't stop other liveries being nasty to them when we weren't there :( shows you what a nice yard we were at!) my mare has had laminitis when she was as thin as a railing.

laminitis is something to be aware of, but unless she has a history, its not something i'd be losing sleep over.

[cvb]

do you think i should just be careful and take action when she starts piling on weight or shows any signs?

IMHO - yes. Even if the horse is not likely to get laminitis, its really not good for their health to gain or lose weight rapidly. So keeping a sensible watch on them is good anyway. By monitoring what is "normal" and then seeing whether they start to add or lose weight, you can intervene at an early stage to adjust grazing, feed etc. i.e. act before it becomes a problem !

Then you're just back to the normal golden rules of feeding :D

Our Fell is an example. On the weight tape he is pretty steady. And when the farrier came recently he commented how slim he looked. BUT - we spotted the following

- he has started to get fat pads over his kidneys
- and a little on his neck area - the start of a crest
- the old boy (33) is very gassy - a sign the grass is starting to come through

So, he's on an hour less turnout on our big field and we've halved certain elements of his food. When the grass really kicks in, he and Fi will stay on the shorter paddocks. (We can't keep the old guy in as well as he has no front teeth and can't eat short grass).

Because the Fell had a bad case of laminitis, he doesn't get anything with cereal in it. He also gets a supplement (Equi-life hoof or something ?). But the other two don't get that, and can have cereal (if needed).

Its actually been really good to weight tape them all, as we also spot any loss of weight in the old guy really quickly.

[hApPiNeSs]

happy is on restricted grazing all year round.

dont all jump on me now - but i dont like muzzles at all. i put one on fern last year when she got laminits and first went back out in the field - all she did was run around dragging her face along the ground! it was heartbreaking - a bit like watching a kid in a sweetshop but cant get at them

og course if the grass is really lush then you should use a muzzle. staying in at night sounds best though

just at thought - you say angel suffers with sweetitch. it may be better to have her in at day anyway when the flys are out :)

[cvb]

Happiness

Our Fell has a neat trick - he pushes the BF muzzle down so the long grass pokes through, and then eats it ;) So it just slows him up a bit rather than stopping him eating completely. (He's also a dab hand at eating mints through the hole when given the chance :D )

Thats actually what you want, as their systems (even with a laminitic) work better if there is a trickle of food going through. When he was in the throws of having laminitis, he lived in our sand school - and had oat straw to eat.

[eventerbabe]

yup, bonnie does that. you can see her lifting her head up then kinda dropping the muzzle onto the ground to get to grass. she's even got to hay like this :D

happiness, i don't like having to restrict bonnie by using a muzzle, but its the only thing that works to restrict her grazing and i'd rather that than her get laminitis again and not survive. sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

[hApPiNeSs]

yeah i know. i meant i thought they were a bit mean and should only be used as a last resort :)

[Drummers mum]

Eek you are making me panic! :eek:

Drummer is a little overweight, I just can't get it off and there is no grass in his field!

I fancy trying the pro biotic thing but I don't know anything about it, can someone give me some info and a link or something? Please!

Notpoodle, good thread btw, You don't sound like you need to panic.

[Esther.D]

Stop panicking everyone :rolleyes: they will be fine provided you keep an eye on them and feed/restrict grazing etc sensibly :D :p

[Mehitabel]

pony is on the thin side at the moment
pony is 12 ans has never had laminitis before, previous owners didnt do anytihing in terms of reducing grazing or preventing it.
x

stop panicking. not all natives are doomed to laminitis. she is thin, she's never had it before, and never had special requirements to prevent it. it is the exepction for a pony to get it, not the rule - we have about 70 horses and 3 have ever had laminitis out of our current bunch - one we think is cushings-related, and one got it when she went into shock after a severe injury - only one has had it for dietary reasons.

do monitor her, do get into the habit of checking her feet, feeling what is normal and what her normal digital pulseis - some ponies you can feel it, and you need to know what it normal for her, do get a weighttape and monitor the waistline, but don't panic!

(actually, having just read the thread in preview - echo cvb.)

[eventerbabe]

Drummers Mum, i use a dengie pro biotic, its called XP. its got a probiotic, a prebiotic and yeast (i think!!). did a bit of research before buying and it seemed the best for what i wanted, and its reasonably priced, £19 for a tub that lasts a few months.

[Big Ears]

it's easy to be neurotic. I have 2 identical cobs, both mares, both 15hh, both 15-17 years old.

Molly has never had laminitis since I bought her 1994. She has had summer turnout 24/7 on the downs and while she looked 'well' no problems.

Rosie had never had an attack till last year but in the first year I had her she lived out 24/7 and was fine - but when we had her x rayed last years her feet showed that she has had it before, as she had old slippering on the toes. So while she may not have shown full blown lameness, she did have earlier changes in her feet.

Molly has been unrestricted still, Rosie of course I now have to treat differently, so they are in the same field, and have some time together then Rosie comes to her paddock for hay and that's it. I hope this will work. I also have a muzzle so I can try that too but she settles fine with her hay and Molly chomps away in the rest of the field.

I have no idea if Molly will get it or not - she is fatter than Rosie currently but not obese, just looks good for a cob. Rosie is now thinner than Molly.

I think it is a bit of a lottery, you can watch their weight, you can keep them off frost, you can not trot them on the road or hard ground and they still get it. Molly is a highly stressed horse, very neurotic, so I suppose she could aim for stress related laminitis!

I think you can only do your best with what you have. Nothing is perfect. Nothing is doomed - you can be lucky or unlucky.

[Esther.D]

I can't say anything really as I am absolutely neurotic about mine as soon as the grass starts to come through :rolleyes:

[eventerbabe]

I think you can only do your best with what you have. Nothing is perfect. Nothing is doomed - you can be lucky or unlucky.

quite right. we had had bonnie for 9 years before she suddenly developed laminitis. i think we were very, very unlucky. she'd had no warning signs at all, just one day, bang, shes down with it. i also had a lamanitic welsh mountain x conny and he never had an attack in all the years i had him, despite being at deaths door with it a year before i acquired him. theres no point worrying. its something to be aware of but don't let it get in the way of enjoying time with your horse.

[hApPiNeSs]

I think you can only do your best with what you have. Nothing is perfect. Nothing is doomed - you can be lucky or unlucky.

true - happy was like a fat pie last year and didnt get it - yet fern was weight score 'moderate' and was ill for 8 months!!!

[Big Ears]

that's it. I had to do a check on two ponies yesterday as a member of the public had reported them as 'at risk' and was concerned about them.

so i trotted off to find a young cob, and a NF mare, in a series of fields which in total would be about 5-7 acres. the person who rang was concerned taht there was no water in the field and they are drinking out of a drying up boggy area.

there is a water trough out of sight in one corner and it is disgusting, totally green, with bubbles in it. otherwise they are fine. apart from the field never being poo picked but there we are it's not against the law. i now have to deal with the landower/owners and try to get it sorted out.

however y ou could say that when the grass comes through they have so much they could be prime candidates - but what can i do.

[notpoodle]

i *am* a natural born neurotic :rolleyes:

i have a weight tape so i'll get cracking with that when she goes out again! i got into the habit of checking heer feet everyday anyway when i pick them out, anyway so i will keep doing that.

julia
x

[Cheko]

My Fell gelding is on Safe and Sound. It is a mix forumlated for ponies such as natives (and any prone to putting on weight and laminitis). So far he hasn't put any weight on and he's been very quiet. He's in a large field and at the moment there isn't much grass. He wont be put into a different field until the 'laminitis' content has gone out of the grass. (Hopefully)!!!

[hApPiNeSs]

bigs ears - are you an rspca inspector or something? :)

[rocklanenancy]

Bonny has a muzzle on all the time in summer when she is out, she can still eat the grass but not as much. Having a muzzle on is a lot kinder than having a crippled horse for months on end. She is recovering from laminitis now, she seems to get it in winter. The greenguard muzzles are useless, I use a plastic one tied to a headcollar. I stuck sponge on the inside of the muzzle so the end doesnt rub her. I honestly believe if she didnt have a muzzle on in summer she would have been put to sleep by now. She doesnt seem to mind wearing one, she did at first though but soon got used to it. Lots of exercise helps to prevent laminitis as long as its not lots of trotting on hard surfaces, in summer bonny gets lunged or ridden as much as possible. She probably only gets it in winter as she has much less exercise as the days are shorter and the fields are too muddy to ride in. Horses can get laminitis at any age, there is a fourteen yr old at our yard got it last year, so taking precautions even if they have never had it before is sensible. Laminitis caused by stress only usually occurs when travelling long distances, overworking unfit horses or sometimes when being wormed or vaccinated.

[eventerbabe]

laminitis in the winter can be caused by cold feet/legs, pressure from compacted snow, frosted grass...... thats why my bonnie always wears some wrap style boots on all 4's and over reach boots on the front in the cold, and never goes out in the snow. although she did this winter coz she was threatening to jump the stable door! :rolleyes:

[angelfben]

I'm taking on a new horse on loan within the next couple of weeks who has suffered an attack of laminitis in the past - though it was stress induced and not grass induced - he is going in a field of approx 1 acre which is currently almost knee-high in grass, he will be on restricted strip grazing but I'm still worried about the risks.... how big an area of grazing would it be safe to give him? Would it be better to get the field topped or leave the grass long (I've had conflicting opinions on this so I don't know what to do)? are there any supplements that might help prevent an attack?

Sorry to hijack this thread but it seemed so relevant to my concerns :o

[Big Ears]

Angelfen

if you have such good grass and a lamnintic you are going to have to be veryv ery careful, he would need to be in a strip which is very very small - almost like a schooling ring, and let him eat it down completely and move it out a couple of feet every week.

my Rosie is on a starvation paddock which is probably about 1/8th of an acre - but it has been grazed all last year and by her since December, so there isn't a lot on it.

topping the paddock will make it worse as there is more sugar in the stems of grass, so that would be what you would be left with if you top it.

you maybe should aim initially for an area about the size of 3 to 4 stables and see how you go. ask your vet. Once Rosie got it she was off for 9 months so prevention is by far the best remedy - how have they managed his condition in his current place?

[cvb]

I guess the risk is that even tho you know the previous incident was stress not grass, there may have been some damage to digestive system which means he will be more sensitive to ANY trigger...

Plus one of the golden rules of feeding is not to change their diet too fast !

Do you have the option to only put him on the lush grass (however much) for small periods of time to start with ?

I personally would try and get it topped. If only cos it restricts the shear VOLUME of grass they have available !

[angelfben]

Thank you for all your kind advice, for fear of cross-posting I'm going to stick to this thread

http://www.newrider.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52888

with any further info/replies. :)

Thank you once again.

[Miriam]

I always go with "Prevention is better than cure" having had a pony on loan that got severe lamintis and my vet telling me Rhi could be prone to it even though she has never had it