Side Reins Advice

[Chloe1]

I am slowly retraining my mare now 13 which has had some physiotherapy for tense muscles in her neck.

I used to use side reins attached in the usual place at the girth etc.

I would like know anyones opinion about attaching them lower down which I have seen some people do.

What I am trying to achieve is to encourage her to stretch her neck forward and down not into a collected outline but a long and low outline but without force (which some gadgets can do).

I have started lungeing her again without any side reins in the field because of the grass tends to tempt her to lower her head (Natural Gadgets work best)

When ridden and lunged she will usually raise her head and this has developed undesired muscle which I do not want to build up again.

[fionahogg]

Do you ride in side reins? Sorry if I've misunderstood your post! If you use the side reins to bring your horse's head 'in' whilst being ridden then I think you might be better trying another training aid such as a Harbridge or the Masta schooling aid. These encourage the horse to lower the head and therefore don't just bring the nose in which side reins do. I think the Harbridge can be used whilst lunging too. I do not advocate the use of training aids normally but if you think your horse will go better - and they will encourage muscle development - then I think the Harbridge/Masta would be beneficial.
I have never heard of placing side reins any lower down that the 'usual' place at the girth. Although they can be used higher up (attached to the saddle/roller D rings) to encourage the horse to work higher and rounder.

Fiona.

[Chloe1]

Sorry if I was a bit misleading.

I only used the side reins for lunging not riding.

But I don't want to use any poll pressure as she doesn't like this. As she also built up undesired muscle at the very top of her neck just behind the poll.

I will have a look at a harbridge but i prefer not to use gadgets if I can even though I know side reins are gadgets as well really.

[fionahogg]

Personally I prefer the Harbridge because it would encourage more downwards stretching and working through the back as opposed to just tucking the nose in which they can do in side reins.
Do you know why does she not like poll pressure?

Fiona.

[Mossy]

Warning if I may.
Tender Polls are very often a sign of back nd shoulder problems so there may still be a physical ache there

Personally I am never sure about the safety angle of sidereins and grass. Call me a fussy soul if you want to but the way they stretch out to regain their balance when they slip is impossible with side reins. I'll only use side reins when I am 100% sure of the surface. Sorry to be a worry socks.

[Chloe1]

Firstly
She doesn't like poll pressure as we are convinced that when she was a youngster she was beaten about the headas she was head shy when we first got her and any sudden movement from arms caused her to throw her head up away from harm also you could not tie her up as any panic attack would cuse her to break her head collar or lead rope amd pull on her poll untill it broke, any pressure felt in this area causes her to throw her head up, the psysio gave me some exercizes to help with this and this is the area where she has also built up some undesired muscle from resistance.

Secondly
I have read a bit more about the harbridge and understand now how it works, but I would like to know if tou can also use it for lunging.

[floppy]

people in germany seem to use side reins alot when riding, you see it everywhere..in riding lessons in magazines etc..

[Edited by floppy on 2nd Jun 2001 at 09:24 PM]

[fionahogg]

I don't know but I don't really see any reason why this would be a problem.

[Chloe1]

OK

Been and gone and bought a harbridge and found out you can use it for lunging.
So lunged her yesterday and it worked well she stayed relaxed long and low.

Now I would like to know how long should I keep up this retraining period before starting more collected work.

I intend to work her every other day alternating riding and lunging.

I know it usual depends on the horse but roughly how long does it take to buid up the required muscle or should I wait untill i visualy see an increase in muscle. (she needs more muscle just behind the withers) typical thoroughbred high withered horse. Also needs a little more muscle at the top of her neck and a belly lift. Or will i not see an increase in muscle size?

[fionahogg]

Hi Chloe. Glad she worked well in the Harbridge. I would wait until you can see a build up in muscle where she needs it. It is so hard to say how long she will need because muscle develops at a different rate in different horses.
However if she is coping well with the work then, especially when you ride her, you will probably find that when she feels she is ready she will collect for a few strides herself.
Also I would think of not going from a long and low outline to a more collected outline, but gradually asking for her to come slightly higher and rounder as she gets more developed. We made the mistake of going from a long and low outline into one that was too high and collected, and although he seems to go well at first, after a while he was just tucking the nose in so we had to go right back to the beginning.
When you ask for things like shoulder in if she is ready she should collect herself naturally.

Fiona.

[Dizzy]

Hi Chloe, to gain the best benefit, of her working long and low, she needs to move in a nice relaxed rhythm and be over tracking. Then she is using her back and stepping underneath, creating her impulsion from behind.

She'll find this hard work at first, as she is developing previously unused muscles, and she will tire quite quickly. As she improves you could introduce a couple of poles onto your lunge circle, then up it to 4, these will encourage her to use her self more.

Can you lunge using 2 lines? you can make lunging much more interesting and rewarding for both of you, and do a mixture of long riening and lunging.

I've never used a training aid before, do you use it with side reins? Does she use her back and step under? or does she just keep her head low? I've seen them in the catalogues, understand the mechanics, but never seen one in use, so very interested to hear.

Lesley

[KarlR]

I'm actually quite opposed to the routine use of side reins in lunging.

Whilst they are widely used, they're often unnecessary and frequently result in a horse in an artificial outline. By this I mean that whilst they will encourage a horse to lower its head, this is often without proper impulsion and acceptance of the bit - the horse looks like it is working on the bit, but is in fact just holding iteself in a particular position. This can take longer to train out of than you imagine.

A horse that is taught to work properly on the lunge will often adopt a reasonable position on its own in time. If it does persist in sticking its nose out, then loose elastic side reins or a similar aid may be of some benefit, but please use them with caution.

[Tina J]

There's lots of discusion on this one! To answer the question about how long it takes to build the muscles up - in my experience it takes 3-6 months of steady consistent working. With side-reins, their usefulness depends entirely on how well you lunge your horse! If your horse is going forward and reaching for the reins (whether ridden or being lunged) then the back and stomach muscles will develop that help to carry the rider softly. If your horse is not going forward, then side-reins in any position will not help, and you are better off not using them until your horse is simply moving freely. Personally I prefer an elasticated chambon (I think you can get them from CAMequestrian now - mine came from Germany) This simply makes it harder work for the horse to work in a hollow outline and encourages rounder working without forcing it. And you can use it for ridden work as well. BUT if your horse doesn't like poll pressure this won't be for you. If the harbridge is working stick with it - and good luck.

[Chloe1]

I have lunged her in the harbridge now twice and will ride her in it tommorow. I wanted to lunge her in it first to make sure it was fitted correctly and that she was working correctly.
I don't use it with side reins, I used to use side reins before I bought the harbridge, but I am inclined to agree with Karl that with my horse any way she wasn't working correctly even after trying different lengths of side reins.

She is overtracking well in walk but tracking up in trot not overtracking. Should she be overtracking in trot?

Also as I am using this gadget for suppling and muscle building would you say that working her every other day is sufficient or should she be worked more frequently?

[fionahogg]

Hi Chloe,
If she doesn't overtrack on the lunge but does when you ride her then this would be because she isn't moving with enough impulsion to overtrack. It is sometimes difficult to encourage them to move more from behind on the lunge because often the horse will rush because there isn't a lot telling him not to. Could this be what is happening? She should really be overtracking and taking nice long strides when she's stretching down. Is she nearly over tracking or is the hind hoof print no wear near the front one? If the latter then yes, I think she does need to be a little more forwards so she can overtrack. Does she look like she's going really slowly or is she moving with reasonable energy? Is she just stretching her nose down or is can you see her back working too? If she is nearly overtracking - i.e. her hind hoof print steps into the heel of the front hoof print then I shouldn't worry too much because she may find it difficult to go any further under because working long and low will put her naturally on her forehand. As she develops more muscle and is able to work a little more on her hocks then she will find it easier to overtrack. Also she won't be able to actually step over the front hoof print like she is doing in walk she will just track up - step into the front print with her hind hooves.
With regards to how often you should ride her, this really depends on how well you feel she is coping with the work. At first every other day would be OK unless you feel that more often would be more beneficial. However because you are looking for muscle development her muscles may not be able to cope with daily exercise.
Do you have access to hacking or does foot and mouth still prevent this? If you can get her out and about then I would work her every other day in the school, lunging or riding whatever you like, and then get her out a couple of times a week in between schooling sessions. If she has to work long and low all the time then you could try giving her 15mins on the lunge to get her stretching down and then take her for a walk without the harbridge on to see if she will stretch down in walk with you on but no harbridge? If you still can't get out then I wouldn’t work her any more often than every other day for fear of her becoming bored and stale. The muscle will still develop providing that when she does work she is consistent.

Fiona.

[Chloe1]

Hi fiona

Rode her today and the walk is excellent both on the lunge and ridden she overtracks well, but the trot still has its problems. I find riding her with the harbridge beneficial to me as a rider because it makes me a much quieter rider, also it gives me a little more confidence that she can't do all the naughty things she was doing in the past, but in the trot she did still try. She tries to throw her head up as soon as I ask for trot and loses impulsion on the corners or trys to canter, she is better in trot on the lunge but still has a tendency to hop into trot so i think that is called coming behind the bit, not a nice feeling but the harbridge does give me more confidence and hopefully she will learn that she is just making herself uncomfortable by doing this, when she does it i try to send her forwards giving the rein at the same time, am I doing the right thing? As my instructor has said to me in the past that I should stand my ground more and keep the contact, but this made matters worse, at the end of the day i prefer a horse that will go forwards, not up and rear, as she did once in the past, I put her past problems down to this style of riding as she developed quite a sensitive mouth, which she never used to have, and now she doesn't like to be given any rein aids at all really.

[fionahogg]

Hi Chole. I suspect the problem might be because she's anticipating discomfort and is a little unsure that it's OK to stretch down? Yes I think you are doing the right thing by sending her forwards into the trot try to think more of pushing her downwards and also if you can try to widen and lower your hands so you encourage her to stretch her neck out. If you can then try to keep a very soft contact to push her into, if she resents this then you could try just squeezing the rein (hold the rein between the index finger and thumb so the rest of the fingers are free to open and close around it). This will encourage her to hopefully relax her jaw so she is more able to accept the soft contact. As soon as she accepts the soft contact then give the rein away so she understands that she's done good. You are definitely doing right in not just keeping the contact because you will end up tensing the hand and this will make the contact stiff and no longer elastic so she will resent this even more. I think that her problem with her mouth could be more psychological than anything and once she learns that the contact will stay soft then she should settle down and hopefully become more accepting so you can use the bit a little more.
If she is hopping into trot then this could be because the aid for trot is a little sudden so she hops forwards instead of taking a true stride into the new gait. Try to make sure you ask slowly and build up the leg pressure from gentle squeezes to small nudges. When you feel her about to trot yield the hand forwards to encourage her to stretch forwards instead of tightening her back and hopping forwards.
Keep her on a big circle, if you can, bigger than 20metres, don't introduce straight lines until she can stay balanced on the circle and on a figure of eight. This will also help her to stretch forwards because she will be maintaining the same bend so will find it easier to balance so will hopefully feel more confident to stretch down.

Hope this helps.

Fiona.

[Chloe1]

Thanks ever so much Fiona I will remember these comments and give it a go next time I ride her.
I was beginning to get paranoid about her again thinking about getting the dentist out again even though he only came out in February, and also asking the vet to check for ovarian cysts.
I have already got her on stroppy mare supplement.

I am the type of person who usually thinks that horses are not generally naughty, unless there is a physical problem causing it in the first place, so it has been driving me around the bend thinking what the problem can be especially when others around you just say she is being naughty. I usually answer back by saying. Why is she naughty then? There must be a reason.

[fionahogg]

Yes you are totally right, there is always a reason why the horse misbehaves. It could be due to physical problems, it could be phsychological - for example Monty had a bad accident with a tractor when he was a three year old. 8 years later, no matter how many tractors he sees and how much I try to get him used to them, he is still scared of them. I think that if I persevered with him, showing him tractors every day and building up from just walking past them to have them drive past him, he would eventually be OK but unfortunately I don't have a kind farmer friend who would lend me his tractor! Another reason is the horse is trying to tell the rider/handler something, s/he just ignores him. For example, the rider asks for leg yield using the 'correct' aid but having his weight shifted all wrong, making it impossible for the horse to leg yield. The horse ignores the rider's 'aids' and the rider gets angry. This continues until the horse just says, "Oh p**s off! If you can't ride me properly then you might as well not ride me at all!".

So, yes, pain is a major factor with 'problem' horses, but so is misunderstanding and ignorance on the rider's part.

Good luck with your horse, it sounds like you're doing a very good job with her!

If you have any more questions then feel free to ask!

Fiona.

[rodg]

Hi Chloe,
The problems you are having with your horse are due to the fact that your horse is not moving its rib cage properly, which causes a number of bio mechanical problems with her action. If you go to
www.centralcoastsports.com.au/rgroganequine.html
it will explain what your horse is doing and why, your horses problem can be corrected. If you need any more help you can e-mail me

[clip-clop-oops-crash]

there are no bad horses only bad riders. the infamous suzie has a reputation as a 'naughty' horse but then when she was left in a field unhandled until she was broken at 3 and then whipped around showjumping courses without been taught a riders aids then being called ignorant and 'mareish' when she didnt even understand what was being asked. then when she finally became so afraid of people that she became aggressive she was locked (actually padlocked) in a solitary stable with a grill for 8 months, the only interaction being the weekly visits when someone would go into her stable with a schooling whip, shovel out the muck and empty a bale of hay into the corner, beating her around the head with the whip if she moved from the opposite end of the stable. she was kept at a very reputable 'good' yard, she was known as the 'bad' horse. but then who can blame her?

[fionahogg]

Oh my god! Clip clop, that's terrible!!!! You said she'd been mistreated…ugh locking her in a stable for 8months?? How could they do that? Didn't these people have a heart?
Good on you for listening to her.

Fiona.

[clip-clop-oops-crash]

disgusting isnt it, :mad: i still cant talk about her past without crying and even through all the progress we've made, every time i go to stroke her head there will still be the scars there to remind me. the owners of the yard were never prosecuted, in a way i destroyed the evidence by taking on suzie myself instead of giving her to the rspca or ilph, but something just clicked with me and suze and i knew that from the moment i looked into her eyes id never be able to turn away again. and i still cant. the yard owners soon payed for there crime though - i made sure of that. I took photos of suzie and the terrible state she was in then made up a poster reading "(name of yard) - destroying good horses for over 30 years" soon enough nobody wanted to be associated with that place and within weeks the stables closed down and the horses were sold on to more deserving homes. its a shame it took such a tragedy to reveal what was really going on behind closed doors of that yard but at least suzie and the rest of the horses are now in the kind and genuine homes they so greatly needed. :)

[clip-clop-oops-crash]

oh by the way - thats suzie now in the picture! :D

[fionahogg]

She looks lovely!

[clip-clop-oops-crash]

thankyou! :D

[barnesp33]

Hi Chloe

You have already had some advice but there is one thing that I would like to clarify. Side reins should not be used for long and low. If you want your horse to stretch down then he must not bring his head / nose behind the vertical. If side reins are attached and you ask for a stretch then they will pull the nose in towards the front legs and cause your horse to overbend. Long and low is best done without any gadget. However side reins are really good for encouraging the horse to stretch his topline out to the bridle (longitudinal stretch).

[katyptaty]

Can anyone help as to how the Harbridge works... where it fits, where the action would be etc. as much as possible basically!

my horse is going better in a Myler bit but needs to be more balanced. His back muscles have always been very poor and side reins never seem to actually help as they don't encourage him to seek down. I am starting to long rein with him to encourage him to round down without anything on his back to impede his movement.... can anyone help?

[fionahogg]

barnesp33, I disagree. Side reins don't encourage the horse to stretch his topline out longitudinally. If anything, they encourage the horse to tuck his nose in and not work from poll to tail at all.

Katypaty, a harbridge basically attaches to the girth between the horse's front legs, passes up through the front legs and then splits (like a martingale) into two straps, which each connect to one side of the bit. It is designed to encourage the horse to stretch downwards into the contact without restricting forward movement. Hope this helps.

Fiona

[barnesp33]

Hi Fiona

If side reins are too tight or not correctly used then of course the horse will bring the nose in, shorten the neck and frame and will contract over the topline.

However, this is when they are incorrectly used. In the right way side reins, (although not everyones cup of tea:) ) can be a very useful schooling aid. The horse must not be allowed to bring the head in. They should be sent actively forwards, the length must be adjusted such that the horse has an incentive to seek the contact up, out and forwards. Lungeing is an art that needs as much attention as correct riding.

The young/correctional horse should be worked such that the nose is quite a bit in front of the vertical which induces this stretch. Then as the training progresses the length of side rein is adjusted as the horse uses more of the entire body.

Peter

[clip-clop-oops-crash]

i hate side-reins, when else would it be justifyable to fix a horses head in a postition? :mad:

[Dizzy]

I have used side-riens when working Breeze. I do not have them at a length that is restricting, she is free to hold her head in front 'of the vertical'. I used them to weight the bit slightly. I have worked her with and without them, and she worked her topline muscle better with them, even though there was no tension on the reins, just the weight of them encouraged her to carry herself better than she did without them.

I have to agree with Barnesp33 that lunging correctly is an art. I found that Breeze was a willing candidate to motorbike round on the lunge, even when I was walking a large inner circle to help her balance. I ended up teaching her to lateral lunge around cones, pointing at her shoulder to keep it out, then going back onto a circle and pointing at her shoulder when it fell in, if she didn't respond I'd gradually shorten the line and use the cones and start again. She finds work on the clockwise rein quite easy, the downward tranistion from trot was and sometimes still is difficult, but on the anticlockwise rein I just have to whisper 'walk' and she just about halts. She then had a tendancy to fall in through her bum/or out through her outside shoulder but I've dealt with this in the same way - pointing at her bum, and she now carries herself really well, in a nice steady rythm. This has taken a few weeks but she has learnt to carry and balance herself and has even sought the bit once or twice.

I have began to longline/lunge her, but only from the head collar and she's been amazing, the outside rein has just really brought her together, though without it she was stepping well under herself, she's a pleasure to watch, and responds to squeeze/release of the long lines, even for halt, without the slightest sign of going behind the bit or any resistance.

I've never had any experience of the 'harbridge' I do know Fiona always gives sterling advise, with the horses best interest being priority. But I'm sure like side reins, the harbridge can also be abused or used un-necassarily.

I have noticed on this board that nearly everyone says they hate side riens, but I think like every other un-natural aid its how they are used. A bit is an un-natural aid, I notice that people consider the snaffle as a mild bit, used with unsensitive hands it is far from being mild. Surely it how these un-natural aids are used, I nearly always ride with a schooling whip, I can honestly say it has very rarely made contact with a horse, I use it across my boot making a noise, or show it out to the side if the horse spooks, or sometimes use it to push thier bum over, whips are often abused to make up for weak or confused leg signals.

Look forward to hearing others opinions

Lesley

[fionahogg]

Of course any aid, whether 'natural' or artificial, can be used incorrectly. So many people are unaware of their weight aids, so they are used incorrectly and confuse their horse…they then often resort to artificial aids when really all that is necessary was to learn to ride from the seat, but unfortunately this aid is often ignored by many instructors.

Lunging is an art, and, unfortunately, often performed incorrectly. Many people lunge to get rid of excess energy before ridden work, but at other times they will lunge the horse to exercise and supple him - how can the horse then differentiate between 'play time' and work time when he's being lunged? Side reins are often used on horses that are not balanced and supple enough to work correctly in self-carriage. In these cases, the horse will invariably end up using the side reins as an evasion. Some horses will lean on them. Some will back of and over bend. Many do not work satisfactorily from the hocks and although they look to be in an outline, they are stiff and rigid in their backs and are not using their abdominal muscles. Side reins do not soften and give to the horse to reward it for doing something correctly. The elasticated ones obviously have some give in them but, when you are riding a horse, to reward it the rein is softened…as side reins are fixed they cannot do this. Yes, with a horse that has learned to work with a high level of self-carriage will seek forwards for a contact and work correctly in side reins if they lunge well. In these cases side reins can be a useful in acting as a substitute for the rider's reins but the side reins themselves do not encourage longitudinal stretch. It is the self-carriage and muscle development achieved through the use of correct training under the saddle and rider that encourages the horse to actively seek the contact provided by side reins.

Many horses are heavier in one hand than the other. Side reins cannot do anything for this problem, and lunging a horse in side reins that leans badly on one rein will not help at all.

The harbridge, like side reins, will do more harm than good when used incorrectly. However, when lunging a more novice horse, it can be useful to encourage a downward stretch. I don't think the harbridge is at all useful for horses who have developed self carriage, but in the case of a horse who needs to stretch forwards downward more through the topline, it can be useful.

Fiona.