Wow! what do I do now??

[Greentchr]

I bought two welch ponies a couple of hours ago. This may have been the best decision or the worst decision in my(so far,short) horsie career. I know almost nothing about them, other than they look healthy, seem to move fine, and load into a trailer with ease. I do not know if they have been ridden, driven, or anything else because I bought them from a horse trader who had bought them in a group a year ago. THese two were pregnant at the time, so he resold the rest of the bunch and kept these. Basically, all he has done has been to pasture them and now that the babies are sold, sell the mares. I bought the two of them for $400, because my riding instructor told me that he will break them to ride (if indeed they are not ridable already) and if they are not good riding ponies for kids, he can resell them at a profit to someone more experienced. I had to make a snap decision on the two (it was both or nothing- I only wanted one), so I decided to go for it.

They are in a large pen right now. This afternoon we will go back down and see them, and see if they can be caught and haltered. The weather is bitter cold and snowy, so we won't spend much time with them yet, but I want to start something... we (my 14yo daughter, 12yo son and I) are excited about them.

How should I begin? We will be doing Parelli level 1 with them as soon as we get the course mailed to us (we took a class, but it was not too thorough). I want to start building a relationship with them immediately and if you could give me suggestions for beginning, we would sure appreciate it!

[Tharg]

Dear god that was a stupid decision to make without thinking about!

What experience do you have?, I dont really see what kind of profit you can make. Your instructor said he would break them to ride so more than likely you are going to have to pay him, on top of that you dont know anything about them so we`ll assume you didint get them vetted which can cost you if your unlucky. You will have to pay for tack,farrier,wormer,livery etc and veterinary treatment.

You dont need parelli to build a relationship with them!, just spend time with them to get to know them and make sure you know how to properly handle horses since you have only had a "short horsie career". If your going to do parelli etc make sure you fully understand it and how horses think, a lot of it is just common sense but is often not obvious to a newbie.

If your serious about what your doing pimp yourself out to riding schools,studs etc to help out to gain experience or put a sign up offering help etc or look for an experienced share.

I may come across as being snappy but it annoys me no end when people make snap decisions over serious things. Green rider green horses= Very bad mixture.

[tazzle22]

wow , you are a woman of spontinaity ;)

well welshies are characters thats for sure ..... minds of their own but can make fab companions of treated right :p

What section are they ( a,b,c,d) or if not sure than what age / height are they ?

I would just start as with any horse, spend some time just chilling with them , or givning them a little hay / or amouthful of food so they see you as "pleasurable" ...... then try generally handling, grooming, picking feet up. heacolllars on and lead round etc for a few weeks.

By then you should have the pack and decide if parelli for you. I would however. if you are new to it , try out the parelli principle on a horse that knows the business first so you know that you are getting "it" right before you try it on a horse that you are "teaching".

I dont know how much you do know about horse and equine body language but it is something you need to be even more aware of with young or unhandles ponies.

Have fun indeed and I look forward to hearing more about your ponies :)

[KarinUS]

Alright. Interesting post. :o
Perhaps you could be a bit more specific what you mean with 'short horsie career'?
That way people won't state the obvious in their responses, etc.
I am sure you will get lots of helpful advice once we know where you are starting out from.

Just a note here: It's shocking to me how instructors can encourage their clients and make promises like that. There's no way that I would want financial responsibility for another dog- much less another horse. It can add up so very quickly. But I guess it's always easy to spend other people's money, isn't it?! ;)

[Greentchr]

Perhaps you could be a bit more specific what you mean with 'short horsie career'?


Fair question! Last summer (may 04) I began helping a neighbor with his 7 horses, (and then 8 when one had a foal), which we were totally responsible for as our (soon) friend had been badly hurt. Never having been around horses before, it was a wonderful learning experience. My daughter and I both discovered a love of horses, and went a step further, borrowed one of his horses and took a Parelli Level 1 twelve-week class. We decided to buy the horse we had borrowed, and have owned it (she lives in our backyard on 11 acres) since September. We (my daughter and I) have been taking horsemanship and riding lessons since November. I have asked a lot of questions on the board, read a number of books, watched John Lyons symposium vids, borrowed the Parelli Level 1 course (which I have to give back and have ordered my own set so I can have my children go through it with me), and, of course, we are learning from making mistakes (green horse & green rider syndrome). I got myself bucked off a couple of weeks ago because of my 'greenness' :) .

We went down this afternoon, and did the approach-retreat with them. The one let us up and accepted petting. The second one would let me within 3 feet before I had to back off, though she would follow after us. The weather is frightful at the moment, so we only spent 1/2 hour with them. We will be going down twice a day to feed. I guess I am mostly unsure how quickly I should try to move. The one I am confident we can halter, the other not a chance at the moment. My impression is that I should take my lead from the horse, but that I should continue a lesson until it is completed.

Question: I want to approach the second horse and be able to halter it. I worked the approach/retreat method today, which worked fine with the calmer one. Should I concentrate on the second one and then continue (no matter how long it takes) or is it better to take it in smaller learning chunks?

Oh, on the 'profit' motive- the idea was not to make money on it, but just not to lose money if they turned out to not be right for us. I did not actually make a 'snap' decision, as I had been thinking about it for several days. The seller called and asked me to decide right then, however, because a man was there buying his donkeys, and wanted the ponies as well, and a young lady had been out there earlier in the day and had fallen in love with them... I had been the first 'looker', so he gave me the chance... and though I was still unsure, I just decided to go for it.

[Harry Hobbes]

How should I begin? We will be doing Parelli level 1 with them as soon as we get the course mailed to us (we took a class, but it was not too thorough). I want to start building a relationship with them immediately and if you could give me suggestions for beginning, we would sure appreciate it!
The thing to do as a precursor to the Parelli work is to establish yourself as the dominate/alpha/leader (whichever word you wish to use) with each pony in turn. A very safe way for a novice to accomplish this is with the following method in the corral (or round pen or arena):

Objective

The objective of this exercise is to establish your dominance/alpha/leadership by causing each pony to move at your volition, and to respond to your asking. (Reference Understanding The Ancient Secrects of the Horse's Mind, Chapter 10, How Leadership is Established.) Once your dominance is established, each pony will be generally responsive to you, rather than reacting to/against you. You do this by causing each pony to move when and where you require.

Sequence

1. Get yourself a flag on a stick or a lunge whip; something that you can use to apply pressure by "flagging" from beyond kicking distance. Parelli's Carrot Stick will work, or a lunge whip; put a plastic grocery bag on the end of it to make a flag.

2. Enter the corral, pick out one of the ponies (ignore the other) and then walk behind the pony, driving the pony at a walk around the corral.

3. Learn to turn the pony left and right while driving from behind and from each hindquarter. This will require that you learn how much pressure - flagging - to apply, and when not to apply. Every horse is different, so you will have to experiment to find the level of pressure that causes a response, but not a panic in each pony.

4. Continue to drive the pony with the flag until the pony responds correctly by turning left or right on your cues without any signs of fear or anxiety (i.e., without head up, reactive/jerky movements; just walking calmly and deliberately).

5. If the pony moves faster than a walk, do not move faster than a walk yourself, keep the flag down (and inactive), and allow the pony to learn that it does not have to bolt off; that it can just respond by walking.

6. If the pony stops, then reach out and flag it on (staying out of kicking range).

7. You select the direction that you want the pony to turn, and enforce your selection by pressuring (flagging) the pony if it turns the incorrect direction. If it responds to your cue and turns the correct direction, keep the flag down (and inactive), and continue to walk after (drive) the pony.

8. Do not allow the pony to quit and come to you until you have complete and calm control of the pony's movements. This will require about 30 minutes of driving the pony at a walk.

9. When you do want the pony to come to you, invite it in to you by: stop walking (driving), lower the flag to the dirt, soften your posture and wait. When it turns and comes in, pet your pony and let it relax.

10. If the pony does not turn and come to you after about fifteen seconds, then go back to driving for another five minutes, then stop again and invite the pony in.

11. Repeat the entire sequence again several times over serveral days, until each pony moves off and turns correctly when you ask, and then turns and comes in when you invite it in; all without fear or anxiety, just nice and calm.

Important points to keep in mind:

Use only enough pressure to get the movement that you want and then put the flag down (i.e., hang on to the handle, but drop the flag end on to the ground and just drag it around while you are walking). This will allow the pony to learn (from pressure and release) to read your cues and respond.

Always give the pony a place to go. Never get it in a position where it doesn't have an "out", else it will run you over or go through a fence.

Initially, the pony that you are driving will bolt away, until it realizes that you are not pursuing it, but only driving it; then it will move at a walk and not bolt. This is a very important lesson for each pony to learn, so don't attempt to prevent the ponies from learning this lesson: they must learn to read your cues and respond, not bolt. You just keep a steady walk and they will learn this lesson.

You should only use enough energy to cause the response you want. If you get too aggressive, then you will get a lot of "reaction" rather than "responsiveness". You need responsiveness without reaction, so no running/jumping at the pony; stay in a walk.

You cannot train any horse if you cannot get movement of the feet, so at minimum, each pony must move its feet when you ask. If the pony stops without your cue, use the flag to pressure it on.

At no point in this exercise are you grabbing at, holding the pony, or getting within kicking distance of the pony, until you invite it in and pet and praise it.

Ignore the pony that you are not driving; just let it get out of your way. If the other pony gets in your way while you are driving the first, then haze it off with the flag, and continue driving the first pony.

If anyone is excited (including you) throughout this exercise, then you are using too much pressure; after the first five minutes, everyone should be calmly walking.

Close

Once you and each pony successfully get this exercise down pat, your ponies will catch you so that you can halter them.

Buck Brannaman calls this exercise "Ploughing the Field" because it resembles you controlling a plough horse that is turning left/right with your cues from invisible reins. Parelli uses a variation of this later in his liberty training (as do many other trainers).

It is an excellent exercise to cause the horse to follow your leadership.

Best regards,
Harry

[virtuallyhorses]

They are in a large pen right now. This afternoon we will go back down and see them, and see if they can be caught and haltered. The weather is bitter cold and snowy, so we won't spend much time with them yet, but I want to start something...

I hope we can assume that these ponies have adequate shelter, warmth and food ...? Being Welsh doesn't mean that they're impervious to weather :(

Does it not concern you that you may have purchased ponies with health problems or that it might have been wiser to have thought about what you wanted to do with a horse or pony of your own and then gone out and found one that matched what you wanted instead of buying the first thing that came along?

[entreat]

OOOH! New ponies!!
Although I would always advise careful consideration in all equine purchases, what's done is done - and now you can start your relationship with your ponies!!

Harry is an absolute wealth of knowledge! I've never read anything of his that I wouldn't do with my own horses!! Just brill!

Other than that - spent time with them!! If it's snowy & yuck, get 'em some little rugs. Ensure they have food & water at all times (duh ;)), and you should consider worming them & starting a vaccination program asap. And, of course, farrier/denstist/vet. But that doesn't really need to be said!

Best of luck - I'm anxiously awaiting photos!!

[Morgan3]

Harry, your post is awesome! I've seen it done on TV, but your explanation covers all the details and it finally makes sense to me. Even though it's not my thread, I want to thank you anyway :D

[Greentchr]

Ahhh, excellent! this 'step by step' is very helpful. Fortunately, I have healed enough to walk (slowly!) now, so this I can do! Thank you, Harry, for your reply! We will begin Thursday- when the weather is supposed to break!

Tazzle- I do not know what section they are. the seller gave me a funny look when I asked- I guess around here they are just 'ponies'! I am attaching a photo to give an idea as to their height. My daughter is 5'9, so that may help you judge. They are supposedly about 4yo (the red one) and 6yo (the darker one), but I need to have someone look at their teeth as soon as they are calmer, and give me an age estimate, though I do trust the seller. I looked at the teeth of the red one, and could only tell that they looked OK to my inexperienced eye!

VirtuallyHorses- Yes, I would like to be able to afford what I really need- a bombproof old been-there, done-that horse- and I have a horse trainer who wants to loan me a $10,000 horse that is that type, while he is away for a year, as well as sell me another $2,000 horse that his sons have trained and ridden for years. I cannot afford that-yet. I look at these ponies as a way of getting experience, as well as 'doing no harm' (one of our medical terms). The pony will be well cared for, as all our animals are, with proper medical care as needed, and hopefully will become a lifetime member of the family. The other pony (the calmer one-red) is already spoken for,though it will be kept with mine and I have the privilege of working with it. If the time comes that it becomes obvious that they need more experienced owners, I will take care that they are well matched. I hope that my experience will grow fast enough to preclude that eventuality, however. We tend to fall in love with our animals rather quickly.

Interesting note- I have never seen a horse branded on the cheek before. These obviously came from the same place, because they are both branded on the left jaw with a white "C" over some other marks. Harry, is this a common place to brand? What is used to brand? I would not think they could use a hot brand on the face like we do on the calves rump.

[KarinUS]

Where are they right? What is the footing in the pen?

[Harry Hobbes]

Entreat,

Presuming that these ponies wintered locally to Greentchr in Idaho, and the original owner did not blanket them (which is usually the case hereabouts), then they will have what is left of a thick winter coat (shedding has begun). Because our days are warm (40+ degrees Farenheit) and the nights drop below freezing, we are experiencing major temperature swings (as we do every fall and spring). In addition, we are getting blizzards in the late afternoon and evening, which melt off the next morning.

Although one's first reaction may be to say "blanket the horses", this can be more dangerous to the horse than just allowing the natural coats to do their job. It is risky for the health of the horse to blanket at this point (during spring and fall) because unless the blankets are put on in the evening and taken off at dawn everyday, with careful drying of the horse, the horse is at risk of contracting pneumonia from the relative overheating, sweating, and then chilling. (The horse with the remnants of a winter coat will sweat under a blanket, then chill.)

Unless someone is there to manage the adding/removal of the blankets twice a day, at the right time based upon the temperature, or has the horse indoors, it is better to let the horse's coat do its job. If these ponies were pastured, then they are quite used to it, and will do well. Just allow them shelter from the wind, and they will do well.

Greentchr,

The ponies (and your donkey and mare) only need to be able to get out of the wind. A loafing shed, lean to, or a stand of trees will serve this purpose. If they have a loafing shed or trees, then they'll use that to get out of the weather.

By the way, you can tell which way the wind is blowing, because the horses will turn their butts to the wind. This is Mother Nature's built-in "wind break", and is why you'll notice that all of the horses are pointed one way when it's windy.
I've seen it done on TV...
Who was the trainer using the method?
they are both branded on the left jaw with a white "C" over some other marks. Harry, is this a common place to brand? What is used to brand? I would not think they could use a hot brand on the face like we do on the calves rump.
Yes, branding on the cheek is common. If the hairs are white, then they used "freeze branding" such as the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) uses to brand captured Mustangs (although the BLM brands on the left side of the neck along the crest).

Best regards,
Harry

[Greentchr]

Where are they right? What is the footing in the pen?

umm, I am not sure what you are asking... Their pen is snow and mud at the moment, with sandy mud at the other end. It is about 150' X 50' in size.

[Morgan3]

John Lyons (on RFDTV) was doing something similar in the round pen only using rope instead of a carrot stick. He would throw the rope at the horses. He had two horses in the same round pen and would make them switch sides (one on the right and one on the left), as well as drive them both forward, backward and circle them in both directions and work with one at a time.

[Harry Hobbes]

John Lyons (on RFDTV) was doing something similar in the round pen only using rope instead of a carrot stick. This is a variation of his "Round Pen Reasoning", which is his signature technique (along with Give To The Bit).

These methods/techniques all operate off of the same principle: establish leadership by controlling movement.

Also, the particular tools used is not important, which is why one can use a flag, lunge whip, lariat or any other tool that extends the human's reach.

Best regards,
Harry

[Greentchr]

Morgan- yes, he did the same thing in his symposium tape #1. I am going to review it so I can see it happening again. I find John Lyons difficult to learn from (at least on the symposium tapes-his books are great) because although I can SEE what he is doing, it is sometimes difficult for me to understand what he is doing. Harry's post combined with the visual aid of Lyons tape, gives a real understanding of what is going on and why

[entreat]

I usually don't rug my horses - their coats are pretty good at that, but as we don't get snow here, I thought you would rug in that weather? But you know thw area better than I ever would. :o

[Harry Hobbes]

I used to blanket them in winter when I was first starting, but I learned from some pretty experienced folks.

But truth be told, I still blanket irregularly: when the temperature is forecasted to drop to twenty or thirty below zero (Farenheit) overnight. I'm such a softy in my old age.

Best regards,
Harry

[Greentchr]

Entreat- Thank you for your kind words! Noone rugs around here except those that keep their horses indoors at the stable. I live in a canyon, where the wind mainly comes from one direction, so the horses just get in the lee of the barn or the bushes. THis summer, I am going to have a shelter area dug out of the hillside so they have more options (the 'barn' is actually a glorified shed, and will not give enough space for another horse). It does get quite cold and nasty, but as Harry said, as long as they can get out of the wind, they appear comfy and more importantly, healthy. They do have very thick coats, and are in the process of shedding now, though slowly as the weather will be chilly at night for another few months.

[Tharg]

It doesnt seem the smartest idea for a newby to gain experience from green ponies of an unknown histry who would benfit most from experienced handling.To me it just doesnt seem fair on the ponies.Be wary of doing no harm with little experience as there may be unintentional upsets, like do you know the signs of a colicy horse etc.

You paid $400 for them and say that you cant afford $2000 for a more suitable horse yet. The maintenance of the ponies could well exceed $2000 dollars since you didnt get them vetted and could have possible health problems as well as others costs tack,farrier,feed,etc. It would have been better to loan the $10000 horse, one horse is cheaper to keep than two unknown young ponies.You said your instructor is going away for a year so who is breaking them in and keeping an eye on you?.

Granted you wrote that you have read loads of books(which is a good thing) and some parelli info but nothing beats proper experience. If you looked around I`m sure you would have found a more suitable equine even if it was just on loan. The perfect horse is out there it just takes time to find them.

[racipaci]

I'm not sure what point you were making there Tharg but it does seem a little harsh to me. ;)

As someone else said, what's done is done, no it's probably not the decision a lot of us would have made but that is irrelevant now, Greentchr is asking for advice (which should be encouraged) not critiscism which can only be couterproductive in my opinion.

The main point now is that she is seeking advice on how to look after the ponies and has someone experienced helping her.

Good luck with the ponies Greentch, do they have names yet? keep on asking the questions about anything you're not sure about :)

[ajhainey]

[QUOTE=Tharg]It doesnt seem the smartest idea for a newby to gain experience from green ponies of an unknown histry who would benfit most from experienced handling.To me it just doesnt seem fair on the ponies.Be wary of doing no harm with little experience as there may be unintentional upsets, like do you know the signs of a colicy horse etc.
[QUOTE]

Would it have been 'fairer' to leave them there? As far as I can see they were going to be sold as 'unknowns' no matter what - which isn't the best route to the perfect home unless there _happens_ to be a local experienced rider looking for a rescue, which is not that likely in practice I feel? From what I read Greenchr has land, at least 6months experience keeping horses, the committment to read up on the subject, and take courses, an open mind as to how to move forward and an obvious love of animals and a desire to 'see them right'. She has even mentioned attempting to sell them on to a more experienced home if the need arises. I don't see the problem...its not ideal but its hardly worse than where they were before/might have ended up is it?

I just say, good luck! I don't know anything helpful but would love to hear your updates on how their characters progress as they settle in - I hear welshes can be a bit cheeky :-)

btw Harry did you really say 20 or 30 below!! :eek:

aj xx

[Tootsie4U]

A Green on green chiming in!

As long as you understand that; 1. the road will be longer and rougher than normal, 2. you need to continually and deliberately broaden your equine education, and 3. feel no shame in asking help, this can work.

My poor horse has been through the ringer with me as I've learned and gained experience at his expense. Yes, while you may say it is unfair, it has not harmed him physically-he just had different responsiblities that other horses dont get (like teaching mom the value of hindsight and learning from my mistakes). My intent, although sometimes 'incorrect', was to always do my best by him. Looking back, I now know it isnt an 'ideal' situation but not an impossible one. I just sometimes needed a knowledgable hand to show me the way (Thank you NR) and it all worked out well in the end. I see nothing in Greentchr's post to tell me otherwise about her and these ponies.

Take Harry's advice Greentchr. He sure has helped me in alot of ways. Bless that man's patience!

[KarinUS]

umm, I am not sure what you are asking... Their pen is snow and mud at the moment, with sandy mud at the other end. It is about 150' X 50' in size.

I just asked because in the last picture it looked as if the horse was standing in piles of manure. That would be very bad. Sand is fine. :)

Sorry I didn't see that earlier and just noticed Tharg's post about the limited funds. Horse expenses can add up rather quickly. I would strongly suggest you get insurance for them. We pay about $90 a month in horse insurance but it's worth it when you consider how fast you can get a vet bill of several hundret -thousand dollars... :o

[Justie B52]

A little story for you:

When I was 14, I came home from school one day to find my Dad stood in our yard (we had a 6 acre small holding in wales at the time) with a gorgeous but very sorry looking flea bitten grey welshie C. We had only been on the small holding for a few months and had no previous experience of keeping horses (other than my previous riding experience that stoppeed when I was 9)

Dad had been the Llanybydder horse market and sort of rescued her. He walked the 4.5 miles home with her whilst I was at school! We knew nothing about her. We got the vet out to check her fully & the farrier to sort her feet. From then on we were kinda on our own, and what a wonderful time we had together! In the short 2 years that we were together we learned a lot about each other. The only problem we had was a bout of laminitis, but she did recover.

She was called 'Thursday' as that's the day of the market, she was 13.2 hh. I had to save up for a saddle so to start with we barebacked every where. I was very lucky as our neighbours had 144 acres for me to ride on so I never had to take her on the road.

In the end my parents sold the small holding so I had to sell her and I was mortified, I cried for weeks afterward, she went to a home with a young girl who loved horses but I never saw her again. I still miss her and it's been 20 years.

I just wanted to say green rider - green pony doesn't always spell disaster.

I wish you lots of happiness with your new arrivals, I'm sure they'll bring you immense pleasure.

Cheers

Justie x

[Harry Hobbes]

btw Harry did you really say 20 or 30 below!! Yeah.

It tends to cool off around here in January and February.

[LinzCos]

They look like Sec A's to me. I have two Welsh ponies, both young, one little Sec A and a bigger Sec C. They are both fantastic little ponies and my kids adore them. We got them from a Rescue centre in Wales, if you go to www.swhp.co.uk you will see many such ponies looking for good homes and some very moving stories of rescue. There is a pony there who looks just like one of yours.

My Sec A was a little timid when we first got him and still can be with strangers however he is great when ridden and fine on a leading rein with a small child riding. However he is very freaky about whips, long sticks etc and will run from any sudden movement when you approach in the field. We spent hours sitting with the ponies, letting them nuzzle us and teaching them to trust us.

These little ponies do gain weight easily and can be subsequently prone to laminitis. However on the other hand they are generally hardy, usually don't need rugs or shoes and are cheap to feed. Watch out for worms - many carry a huge worm burden and this needs sorting fast.

Good luck with them - I hope you and your children enjoy them. :)

[Greentchr]

A BIG 'thank you' to all of you supportive, helpful people for answering my questions! Harry, you are wonderful as usual!

Harry- we've been spoiled here for the last few winters- hasn't gotten under 10 below and that for only a few weeks. Gotta love it while it lasts! I wonder if the end of the drought-whenever that comes- will bring back the cold. Hmmm...cold...no water... hard decision!

Justie- thank you for that story! It does put this matter back into perspective, doesn't it? I remember a pet I had almost 30 years ago that had to be sold while I was away, and still miss him.

Tootsie- I agree, life will be interesting with all the learning that will have to go on. The greatest thing I have going for me is that I am teachable. I am actively willing and able to learn. I enjoy learning (I didn't start my university education until age 44), and I have a positive outlook on life. If things do not work out the way I had planned, I adjust my plan and keep going. I have found this to be a great way to live and experience life. My life would have been very narrow if I only did things I was perfect at! I would consider myself a 'jack-of-all-trades', master of none.

ajhainey- Thank you for your optimism! I am excited to begin to feel their personalities. When we went down this morning, both immediately came to the fence, though they did not offer to be petted. The darker one especially seems to be a curious tyke, though tends to spook easily- she does not like slamming doors, loud voices or unexpected sounds. The Welchie up the road was bought in a similar manner (some of the reponders to this thread would have an apoloplexy fit if they knew IT"S new owners!), and has turned out to be a dream- the 7 children of the family ride it all over, drive it in a cart, love it... Here's hoping we get a similar experience!

racipaci- thank you for your reply! I was going to reply to thargs wrong assumptions, but you replied with much more tact! My daughter has a list of 20 or so names, but cannot seem to fine just the right ones :p . Perhaps once she can just go and sit in the pen for a few hours, she will finally name them- right now they are 'red' and 'bay' :).

Thank you to all who have helped me! This morning, I was tempted to limit any further NR board experience to PMing Harry, as I was getting a bit unhappy with the unhelpful negativism. I have regained my faith in the generally helpful board, however, and hope that you will continue to have patience with me and help me on this exciting journey!

[Tootsie4U]

Thats great!

The greatest thing I have going for me is that I am teachable.

That has many positives and one big 'danger sign' though, and Im only bringing it up as I've made this mistake.

Don't be *so* impressionable that you let what you think are 'experienced' people do as they will with your horses. I had little experience and not enough education in the begining, so passed my horse from horsie friend to horsie person thinking that he'd be alright in their capable training hands. If it doesnt feel right in your gut, it isnt.

It took me three years and four trainers to find one that seems to mesh well with my overall outlook. Dont be afraid to speak up on your horses behalf if you just know something isnt right.

But so far, you're asking all the right questions and being very open minded. Thats the key :)

[Tharg]

I was just being honest its not my problem if some people find if harsh ;)(I don`t think I was nasty in any parts just reacting to her posts particularly her first which didn`t explain the full story) . I still think Greentchr could have found a more suitable horse and waited a bit longer, but whats done is done. Greentchr should be prepared to hear things from both sides, granted I could have been more friendly in saying it but I don`t see why I should have to sugar coat it for a fully grown woman.

I have raised some good points concering cost etc and the haphazardous(spelling?) lack of a vetting, but as been said before whats done is done.It may be a great learning curve for her but in my opinion(I`m not trying to be snide) I don`t think I would want to be those ponies(if I was a horse I1d be a big tempermental highstrung Irish Sports Horse which required careful handling lol :D :p :D ).

I still stand on that often green horse green rider=bad mixture, Greentchr I wish you the best of luck. One quick question (I`m nosey ;) ) you said your trainer is going away for a year so who is going to keep an eye on your progress?.

[KarinUS]

Tharg,

I understand where you are coming from. You did raise some very valid points. My main concern is the horse. Is the horse getting the best start it possibly could get with a green rider? Probably not. Things are more confusing to learn if the person teaching you doesn't know it herself. No question about it. About the learning opportunity for the green rider- it's not really what I am looking for as I am more concerned about the horse than the rider. :o
But if somebody already has the horses then 'you shouldn't have' is not the most constructive approach. Even if what you are telling them is the truth, it will just turn people off and make them less likely to come back when things go wrong or they have questions. So in the best interest of the horse I think we should still be supportive of people that make foolish or selfish decisions. :)

[Greentchr]

I have raised some good points concering cost etc and the haphazardous(spelling?) lack of a vetting...

...you said your trainer is going away for a year so who is going to keep an eye on your progress?.

Living in a smallish community, one gets to know who one can trust and who not to. The seller has a good reputation, and has been around this valley for over 50 years. I also was in a position to look around at his personal stock, and visit with him for over an hour in his kitchen. I trust him, as do many other people. Is he a professional vet? No, he is a rancher who is a mixture of the old ways and the new, who has cared for his own animals his entire life. When he tells me they are healthy and sound, I believe him. We apparently do things a bit different out here, but the end results are the same as your obviously highly- structured environment: the horses ARE healthy. As far as cost in upkeep, I have already purchased the year's worming program (and yes, thanks to Harry and locals, I know what I am doing here :) ) and as my teacher is also my farrier who does my horse and donkey, the costs are quite up front. I have to put in another shelter, improve my fencing... there are many costs outside of feed/care that I have coming up, as well as the unexpected. Those of us that are a little older and established tend to look at finances a little different than those living paycheck-to-paycheck.

Actually, I did not say MY trainer was leaving. He is quite stable and will be here probably for the rest of my life. The horse's owner is also a trainer, along with his two sons. He is the one that is leaving for his jobsite for a while. I also have my university ridng instructor close by, my regular teacher/trainer, and, because I live in a rural area where -literally- almost everyone has a horse or more in the backyard, I have plenty of support. You may ask why I bother with the NR message board when I have a lot of local options? Mainly because I like the format, and I enjoy the interaction with people who are in different communities and have a different point of view, different experiences. I have found several people here on the board that have truly opened my eyes to new information. Such is the power of the board.

I guess, Tharg-and karinUs- that there is indeed a cultural difference in the way we look at things. The gentleman with the $10,000 horse is willing to trust her to me- which implies that someone who knows me, trusts me. It would be difficult in a limited forum such as this for you to truly know me and my capabilities. There is, then, the temptation to jump to the conclusion that because I do not do things the same as you would do, I am then by definition foolish or selfish. I think it is incumbant on each of us to avoid the temptation to jump in wily-nily and express our opinions in a manner that is disrespectful. It is not a matter of 'sugar coating', just a matter of friendly respect. In re-reading the administration post, I believe it states that the purpose of the board is to provide 'helpful advice' to new, mature riders. That is all I ask and what most people have given. I thank Harry for bringing this thread back to the positive side. If the first reply had been one such as Harry's, I doubt that there would have been the amount of negativism that has been expressed. I guess that the moral of the story is that each of us must be responsible to keep the tone on this forum uplifting and helpful so that it can meet the aims of it's existance.

[KarinUS]

Excuse me, I actually thought I was helpful by bringing up the option of equine health insurance. Sorry you don't feel that way. :confused:
I think it's a senisble option even if that leads youto conclude that I am living paycheck to paycheck???
I didn't call you selfish or foolish, rather I was reminding Tharg that trying to help even when it seems that someone is doing something selfish or foolish might be in the best interest of the horse.

[Greentchr]

Actually, I was not responding to the insurance idea- which is always a good idea- but to thargs concerns as mentioned in her quote. I do hope I have allayed concerns, and appologize if I have not been able to be complete enough in my answers to have done so.

[Caro]

Greentchr: I think, for what it's worth, you should ignore the negativity (hard, but not impossible) and listen to the wonderful advice and experience you're being given. It seems to me that overall a lot of people are willing to help you out, and you've done a lot of the legwork yourself. I certainly wouldn't see someone like yourself as 'green'. I'm fed up to the back teeth with some of the so-called experienced riders I come across, and the mistakes that I see them making (yet they still manage to sound so condescending). Stay with your dream and don't waste energy replying to the negative posts. I should think there's a lot of us silently rooting for you and longing to hear how it all goes. Please don't cut us out of the loop! :)

[lizBur]

I'm rooting for you!

[entreat]

As I discovered in another thread... there are shades of greeness. I wouldn't consider buying an unknown because I'm not confident & have the time/skill/support to bring the best out of that horse - but you do!! YAY! You have support, and coupled with your inquisitive mind, I think you will do right by these little ponies.

I understand that you feel alittle underseige by the 'negative' posts, but don't see them as person attacks or 'telling-offs', but more as cautionary suggestion. No one here is setting you up for an 'I told you so', we just want to make you aware of some of the pitfalls you may face. Having said that - you not face any if you are careful, and ask all the questions you need.

I think you've done the right thing by the little ponies - I think they are gorgeous, and I feel that with the continued support of local horsefellows and NR horsefellows, you & the ponies can come on brilliantly.

[Bacharel]

Just wanted to say good luck with your two little welsh ponies :) Some people have come off a bit harsh, but as long as they are cared and healthy they will be very happy ponies with all the attention they will be recieving. :)

[chev]

Greentchr, I think perhaps the reason you encountered some negativity is because some of us have previous experience of people with little experience buying ponies this way. I live in Wales, and unfortunately a huge number of Welsh ponies are 'rescued' from sales every year by people who don't have the experience or knowledge to care for them properly. When we see these ponies back at the sales again through no fault of their own it does tend to make us wary.

But... there is a huge difference between these people and you - you already have a brief Parelli course behind you, a good trainer, and lots of support. That counts for a huge amount. Please don't be put off by the less positive posts - I understand you would be but what you have done is a little unorthodox and you will encounter people who will be put off by what you said in your first post.

Although you trust the person who sold you these ponies, you also say he himself knows very little about them and has done nothing with them. For this reason I'd look into getting worm counts done - I have Welsh ponies, and they can hide huge worm burdens without showing any signs at all. If you have a lab anywhere where you can post a sample off to it would give you a clear idea of any problems that might exist, particularly as you don't know their early history.

Once they're confident being handled, I'd also look into having their teeth looked at - Welsh ponies, because of the way they're bred, often have misaligned mouths (my Welsh Mountain mare does) which means they develop hooks on their back teeth unless rasping is done once every 6 - 12 months.

I can't add anything to Harry's excellent post so I won't try - but I would like to say good luck, and I hope it all goes well for you all. :)

[Greentchr]

Thank you all for your kindness! I will post an update in a few weeks- I am of a slow-but-steady mind with these girls; I suppose the first time they walk willingly up to me when I walk in, and ask to be haltered... :) Thank you chev for the worm advice- I will have a sample run first of next week, and hopefully they will be ready to have teeth checked in a couple of months when the 'tooth doctor' is scheduled to be in our area. It is time to vaccinate also, so will need to deal with that ASAP, also.

Well, out in the weather to have fun... I take your best wishes with me :)

[Wobblydeb]

Hi greentchr - just to say good luck with the ponies, and all the best with your learning curve! :)

I've been thinking about this thread over the weekend - and the differences of thinking I sometimes read about between US and UK owners. And what I've come back to is..... if we had to be experts before we did anything, we wouldn't achieve or learn much during our lives.

Compare your (impulse?) purchase with being pregnant.... if you had spent time working with children already, had read books about bringing up children, and had a nursery nurse to work alongside you - I think most people would be applauding the amount of effort you had put in!

Anyway.... I will shuffle off again, having had my say :) I love getting to express an opinion - my OH never lets me have one :)