PDA

View Full Version : Won't stand for saddling--HELP!


Unbridled
4th Apr 2005, 07:30 PM
Okay, I've not posted for a very long time so most of you probably won't remember me. But I got my 14 year old Appy mare from my husband's family back in December. They'd been neglecting her (feeding her but little else) and she hadn't been ridden in about 2 years. Before that I found out that she had been ridden not only in an ill-fitting saddle but also with a bit that was almost an inch too large. I knew about the bit before I rode but I did not know the saddle was too tight until she began bucking (I'm still a novice and the problem wasn't really obvious to an untrained eye) Anyway, we got tack that actually fit and have been working with a great trainer. Sugar now rides well and is enjoying learning learning the Parelli games. She also stands so well ground-tied that I can walk from one end of the arena to the other without her moving.

But there's still a problem.

Whenever I groom her I ground-tie her as practice (suggestion of trainer since Sugar was having problems getting back into the obediance thing after 2 years off). She now stands great for grooming but when I pick up the saddle pad it's another matter altogether--she immediately moves away from me. She doesn't run or act hateful, just begins a quick walk forward to avoid the pad being placed on her back. Once it's actually on her back she's fine, however, and will stand. But when I try to place the saddle it's the same problem. When I pick up the saddle she will usually stand still; when I carry it over to her she will stand; but the moment I raise the saddle to place it on her back she will, once again, walk forward. The trainer told me to keep back her into the same spot again until eventually she will stand for the saddle and this is what I've been doing. But the problem is that sometimes just saddling her takes me 15--30 minutes! Then, once saddled, I have the same problem while mounting. I mount from a block to save her back (and my legs, which aren't yet strong enough for comfortable ground-mounting). I can place the block next to her and she's fine; I gather the reins and she's fine; I step onto the block and she's fine. But the moment my foot slides into the left stirrup she begins to walk away. Again, I back her up to the same spot. As with the saddling it sometimes takes me 15 minutes to get onto her back. I KNOW the saddle fits because I had the trainer check it for me and he said it's great. I also had him watch me saddle her to be sure I wasn't doing something wrong that might be uncomfortable for her--he said I was doing it perfectly. And I know her back is no longer sore because the vet checked her out in early March and said her back is in perfect order now.

The thing is....once I'm on mounted she's great. She stands like a lady until I ask her to go and she responds perfectly to the lightest of cues--I can ride her in a Parelli halter and rope reins and she does just as well as with the bridle and bit. She also seems to enjoy riding, so long as I give her mind something to focus on (circles in the arena bore her and make her a little balky, so if I ride in there I have to set up barrels and poles as obstacles). She also stands very well for dismount and will continue to stand after I dismount even if I walk away, unless I "ask" her to follow. She and I have bonded so well now that when she sees my truck on the road she will run up from the far end of the pasture and be waiting for me at the gate when I come out of the barn. I don't have to "catch" her because she's always standing right there, ready to be haltered and led out. So I know that she isn't unwilling to work. Is it just bad memories from the discomfort she experienced before? My trainer also said she acts like a horse who has been struck from the saddle (since she was ridden by spoiled kids before I don't doubt this). But she's fine once I'm in the saddle...so why does she hate the idea of tacking up and mounting? My trainer suspects its just stubborness and says that it will take her a while to finally stop arguing with me about it. But is there anything else I can do that would be quicker? I've thought about putting her in cross-ties but the trainer frowns on that because he's a great believer in ground-tying. He says that there is no point in making a horse behave through artificial methods--it should behave because it has respect for it's owner, not because it's tied to a post. So would putting her in cross-ties negate the training we've done? HELP!

**edited to add some new pics of my girl.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/Unbridled_Brunette/SugarPasture.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v162/Unbridled_Brunette/SugarandGang.jpg

Showjumper
4th Apr 2005, 07:36 PM
She's lovely and it sounds like you have an excellent instructor! I think you hit the nail on the head when you said, "Is it just bad memories from the discomfort she experienced before?" That's the exact thought that was running through my head when I read your post. I think you're doing the right thing. She will eventually realise that it doesn't hurt her and your tacking up and mounting time should start to decrease. Good luck and be patient! :)

jUmPingIsLifE
4th Apr 2005, 07:47 PM
definatly sounds like she is anticapating the pain she felt before.
you said you were doing parelli, do you have the leval 1 dvds? are you saddling up and mounting with savvy? if you arn't maybe you should look into it, you will gain a lot of trust from you mare and she will learn that you saddling her up wont hurt her at all. and mounting will be done much more safely (her not running iff).

Unbridled
4th Apr 2005, 08:04 PM
Showjumper: Thanks for the encouragement. I'm learning that horse ownership is an excellent way to breed patience; but it sure ain't easy! ;) Most of the time I don't mind working so long with her, but some days I'll admit it's frustrating having to spend so much time doing something so simple like saddling her. But one day last week she did allow me to mount after backing her up only twice (first and last time ever!) so maybe she is learning. And she's definitely come a long way from what she used to be; I just have to keep remembering all the crap she had to put up with from her old home and not lose patience.

JumpingIsLife: Unfortunately, I can't yet afford the Parelli DVDs, nor can I afford to join the clubs. Luckily my trainer/instructor utilizes Natural Horsemanship in all his lessons. He's the one who taught me some of the games (yoyo and circling so far) and taught me how to teach her to ground tie and how to ride with the rope halter. She barely knew how to lunge on a long-line when I got her and wouldn't stand if you walked away from her for anything, so we've definitely made progress. About the mounting with savvy, could you please describe it? My instructor told me that when she starts moving away from the saddle or from me when I mount I should just back her into the exact same position again and keep working with her until she accepts it. Is the technique you mentioned different?

jUmPingIsLifE
4th Apr 2005, 08:17 PM
The yo-yo and circling game are games 4 and 5 out of 7. if you go to www.parelli.com you can find out about the first 3 games which are very important, not really sure how you are managing to to games 4 and 5 without the foundation of the first three. the friendly game will benifit you and your horse greatly, and you should use that to saddle up.
i'll see if i can find a website that will discribe really well how to saddle up and mount.

Yann
4th Apr 2005, 08:34 PM
I agree that it sounds like anticipation of old discomfort, I notice from your previous posts that your horse has had saddle and back trouble, so it's not unexpected that she'll assume the saddle might hurt, and that someone mounting onto a badly fitting saddle will hurt too. From what I know I'd say your trainer is giving you good advice, patiently putting the horse back in the same place when it moves away is a standard training technique. Give it time, and praise like mad if she stands for you. Giving a titbit may also be a good idea for some horses, though not all trainers subscribe to that one.

Unbridled
4th Apr 2005, 08:41 PM
I'm sorry. Like I said, I'm new to Parelli and still a novice rider. I forgot to mention the driving game and, dummy that I am, I did not realize that those other two things were actually considered "games" in Parelli! But now that I've read up on the website, yes, we've also done the 'friendly game' and 'porcupine game'. Like I said, my trainer utilizes Parelli in all his lessons but he's using it to help me build a relationship with Sugar and to teach her manners for our riding, not so I can compete or anything. He isn't a member of the club and he doesn't do all of the diciplines. But we definitely have done those games and in order as well. Sorry for the mix-up. :)

About the friendly game: Like I said, Sugar is wonderful about standing at all other times except when being saddled or mounted. I don't think it's a trust issue because I can put her on ground tie and handle her all over, groom her, ect. and she never budges an inch.

***Edited to reply to Yann

Yann, I've given a tidbit before and it definitely helps, especially during mounting. But when I told the instructor he was most displeased with me and said that "bribing" her is not the way to get her to respect me. He's very strict in things like that--he says it's better to wait for an hour until she obeys because she "gives up" than to give her a treat and get on immediately because she's distracted by the food. While I understand this point of view it can be frustrating. Sometimes I'd much rather "bribe" her. Would this really endanger her respect for me (as the trainer insinuated)?

jUmPingIsLifE
4th Apr 2005, 09:09 PM
http://parellinet.com/virtual_instructor/answer.asp?FAQID=132

there is a nice one about mounting

saddle up with savvy:

in short, start out with the saddle pad, leg your horse sniff it and rub all over with saddle pad. then toss saddle pad up (like you are going to toss it on her back) but dont toss it on her back, just work on swinging it up and do it until she stops moving (assuming she moves) and praise when she stops. keep just swinging it up until she is comfy with it then actually put it on her back. lots of praise when she stops moving. then basically do the same thing with the saddle and when girthing up do it in three stages. starting off pretty loose, then a little tighter then one more time before you get on.

Unbridled
4th Apr 2005, 09:15 PM
Thanks for the advice. Saddling with savvy was something my instructor hasn't shown me and I'm going to give it a try. :)

I love playing the games with Sugar--it's the most fun I've ever had with a horse without riding and I think she actually enjoys it, too. If I ever get the money I'm definitely getting a Parelli membership.

jUmPingIsLifE
4th Apr 2005, 09:22 PM
it really sounds like you have a great instructer. non of mine certainly dont know a thing of any form of natural horsemanship and im pretty sure none of them would really believe in any of it! :p

Yann
4th Apr 2005, 09:51 PM
Would this really endanger her respect for me (as the trainer insinuated)?

I wondered if he might be of that school, many western NH trainers are very much against hand feeding:) Personally I would say not, unless she starts mugging you for titbits and doesn't respect your personal space, which some horses might, and which you obviously don't want to encourage.

Given as a reward the treat is a positive reinforcement, and used appropriately can be a useful training tool, as the horse will offer behaviours to get the reward. This is the basis on which clicker training works, and it can be paired with the type of training you're already doing very successfully. By making the food reward intermittent or only giving it for a really good try it can become even more effective.

The saddling with savvy is just an example of the use of desensitisation, making something the horse was concerned about dull and boring and not threatening at all by repeating it. If you break a process down into its components and repeat each one till the horse is comfortable with it, by the time you get to the final step (placing the saddle, mounting etc.) it's not a big deal any more.

Unbridled
5th Apr 2005, 02:39 AM
it really sounds like you have a great instructer. non of mine certainly dont know a thing of any form of natural horsemanship and im pretty sure none of them would really believe in any of it! :p

He's a great trainer and instructor and the $40 an hour it's costing me to work with him is well worth it. The great thing is that he also teaches one of the other ladies at the barn as well. When they go out on the trail he always borrows Sugar because not only is Sugar the other lady's horse's field mate, but he also knows she needs the work. So really we're getting an extra hour of work thrown in for free. She's improved tenthousandfold since we hired him. :)