Which mouthpiece for a pelham?

[JOJOBA]

Im considering buying apelham for Hec. If he doesnt like it I can just chuck it into the general 'riding school' bin, or else keep hold of it for another horse sometime.
The only problem Im having is which mouthpiece to get on it.
So far bit-wise we've had a snaffle with full cheeks which I bought him in, but he didnt need it at all;
http://www.domvet.com/pharmvet/images/203.jpg

Then we got a normal eggbutt snaffle;
http://www.equine-direct.co.uk/images/bits9.jpg

Then a loose ring french link because he was leaning:
http://dakotaroo.com/backblog/wp-content/French_link.jpg

Then a dutch gag for brakes:
http://www.ejeffries.co.uk/gfx/products/bits/JS_Bi608.jpg

Now I use the snaffle for schooling, and the gag with a flash and sometimes martingale for hacking.

I tried Yann's mullen mouth pelham on Hector and he hated it - head up, mouth open, really sensitive in his mouth.
I think however, that this was just due to the SIZE of the mouthpiece, and as a cob, with a relatively large tongue, he had too much of a mouthful!
http://arcolafeed.com/images/english/1103bit18.jpg

Since he's only ever had jointed bits I was considering a jointed pelham?
http://www.doversaddlery.com/images/200/01319.jpg

Or would a ported mouth give more room for his tongue?
http://www.neueschulebits.com/acatalog/8013nc.jpg

Any advice welcome, hope you enjoyed my illustrated post :p.
xxx

[No_Angel]

My cob has a big fleshy tounge and has a ported mouth snaffle. He leans horribly on a mullen mouth snaffle but goes beutifully in his mullen mouth pelham. If he has a low palate make sure if you get a ported one, get a pelham with a wide low port as it will be more comfortable.

[Mehitabel]

why do you want to use a pelham?

which mouthpiece depends on what you want fromthe bit. a jointed or french link mouthpiece will cpmpromise the curb action - without a solid bar to swivel around, you won't get even curb action, and it will be comsiderably different (which is why the curb of a double is never jointed). if you want the actual action of a pelham then don't get a jointed one.

[cvb]

Jojoba

Just to warn you, jointed pelhams have a very different action :eek: Its a bit complicated when you start mixing curb, lever and nutcracker....

You do get e.g. jointed western curbs, but these are used in a very different way.

So I would stay with an unjointed one if I was you...

Have you considered just a plain metal mullen mouth ?

[Jakes Mum]

When I first put Jake in a pelham we tried the rubber mouth one but he didn't like it, too bulky, so we tried the happy mouth straight rippled bar and he went much better in it but I didn't feel he was 100% happy with the curb action so changed to a hanging cheek snaffle so we could still have the poll action without the curb action and he went excellent in it.

[JOJOBA]

cvb - I was trying to work out in my mind what effect a jointed one would have, which is why I asked. As a jointed bit I imagined it would work each side of the mouth seperately, which would be good, but I could also see it having a nutcraker action due to the shanks - I rather assumed there would be something to tie the shanks together (rather like a lip strap?) to stop this happening. Is there not?

why do you want to use a pelham?
because he works well in his gag, which has a poll action, but is still quite strong in it. He is just starting to work round now and really chomp at his bit but is often heavy in my hands. I know many people (on here and otherwise) who swear by pelhams (usually rubber mullen mouth). When I rode Yann's Rio I was impressed about how relaxed she went in her pelham, and in a nice head carriage. He said that she had instantly become like that after he put her in the pelham. So I started looking into different bits for my horse and I think this one may be a good one for him to work more relaxed into - esp with two reins so I can mostly ride the top rein and just have the bottom rein there when needed (note - I would ride with two reins not roundings).

Have you considered just a plain metal mullen mouth ?
I have but they look a bit... harsh. This is only my automatic reaction, having only ever ridden in a jointed bit, but considering the size of his tongue I thought a straight bar type would squish his tongue up a bit?

If he has a low palate make sure if you get a ported one, get a pelham with a wide low port as it will be more comfortable.
Ive tried to find this out before after another bitting question and couldnt! I found out his tongue is large because it bulges out between his teeth when he has his mouth shut, and because to hold / look at it is like a fat round sausage as opposed to being wide and slightly flat (nice imagery there, sorry :p).
However he is a real twit about letting me look in his mouth. The minute I sidle up for a look he starts chomping and foaming etc and Ive never managed to find out if his palate is low or not!
I may try and take some mouth pics for you all soon, as you know what you're talking about better than me!
He is also very strange to bridle. He opens his mouth good as gold and puts the bit in himself, then spends the next five minutes with his head on the ground trying to get his tongue over it, with a look of deep concentration (when I bought him he had been ridden in very badly fitting tack and always had his tongue over the bit, easily - it was about 3 inches too low). He has a bad tooth on one side which we keep filed flat (it has slipped down into his mouth, under his tongue. Removal would mean fairly major surgery), and he plays with it ALL the time. Rubbing his tongue on it. Esp when it's due for filing. He does it as Im riding sometimes; puts his head down and on one side and looks like he's chewing a toffee.
I thought with more room for his tongue he may stop doing this, or at least realise his tongue aint getting over the bit. :rolleyes:
Also what do you mean by 'wide low port' - there are different kinds? I have thus far only found fairly high ones which I wasnt keen on - a wider lower one would certainly seem much better.

Thanks people :)

xxx

[nutkin]

Have you considered a bit with rollers. If your horse is leaning on your hands then the rollers will prevent that from happening as it is so much harder for them to lean on you. Pelhams tend to make some horses overbend so they go from one extreme to another to evade the bit. If your horse normally works well in a snaffle type of bit then I would stick to something with the same action.

[No_Angel]

ok- a high port is a port with the middle bit high.
low port, obviously low.
Wide port just mean that it is a bit wider than the high port, they tend to be quite narrow.

[Mehitabel]

if he is heavy in your hands then the answer is to school him to take more weright behind, come off the forehand and lighten in front, not to change bits.

often (and be aware i am not digging at yann or anyone else here, not having seen their horses!) if there is a dramatic change in way of going with a change of bit, unless it's that the horse was previously uncomfy, for instance in a bit which did'nt fit or poked the palate or something, then it is often because the horse is sitting behind the bit and not reaching into a contact with it.

pelhams often produce 'false lightness' which is whern the horse is anxious about the poll and curb pressure and will back off the contact to avoid them. while the horse feels light in the hand, it's not working properly and is often tense in the back and backing off.

there really shouildn't be a very dramatic instant change with bit changes unless you are alleviating pain. petal is radically different in a single jointed bit to a FL, the single joints poke the roof of her mouth. but going from her snaffle to her double bridle, there's not a drastic change. when she has been ridden in a pelham it was noticeable that she sits behind it and worries - she is very responsive and light, but it iis not proper desirable lightness as it is in the double.

[Bebe]

He is just starting to work round now and really chomp at his bit but is often heavy in my hands.

This doesn't sound like a bitting problem to be honest. Bebe is working in a lovely outline now, the only times she gets heavy in my hands are if I've let her drop onto her forehand a little or if she's getting tired and needs to stretch. In the first instance a half halt & more leg works, in the second a brief stretch does the trick.

My worry with using a pelham for the problem you've described is that a horse who leans on it combined with a rider asking for an outline can easily result in a horse that drops behind the bit. This will feel much lighter in the riders hands but isn't correct and won't help the horse in the long run.

Echo Mehitabel with everything else too!

[cvb]

Jojoba

In your case, a thick bit is "harsh" because of the fleshy tongue !

The slimmer bit gives more room. Yes, it also concentrates the pressure over a smaller area - but you've already ruled out a fat mouthpiece, and a pelham needs good hands from the rider anyway - so its a question of where you put the priority.

In fact the jointed snaffle is likely to be more harsh (in this case) than the straight bar..

The jointed snaffle takes the poll and curb pressure from the pelham, and adds in a nutcracker effect as well. It does mean that the reins have a more independent effect - but that can also make the rein aid confusing to the horse (in this case).

Western curbs are not designed to be ridden with the kind of contact you have in english riding - so you have to judge "harshness" in a completely different way which takes the riding style into account. You don't use this kind of bit on a western horse until they are schooled to a certain level 9and the rider should also be at a certain level). Sort of like the english progression to a double bridle...

One of the things about riding in a "complex" bit is that the rider needs to understand the action they are creating in order to know how and when to use the rein aids. We all tend to do this automatically with the simpler bits as thats what we tend to learn with. but when you progress on e.g. to a double bridle, then you relearn what you are doing.

In the case of the jointed snaffle - I could have a bash at explaining it to you, and may even make some vague sense. But I would not feel as confident as I would with a double that I would know how to modify my rein aids to get the result I wanted. So I wouldn't ride in it. (And we happen to have one of these at home....!).

So the question I pose to you is whether YOU could understand the action enough to know how to modify your riding to use it ? e.g. how would you ask for inside flexion with this bit ? As you need to control both snaffle and curb rein, AND bear in mind the nutcracker effect....

(I know we normally just get on and ride, rather than analysing what we're doing. But if it all goes wrong, you need to be able to break down what's going wrong and correct it - are you confident you could do this with this kind of bit ?)

In terms of mullen mouth (curved) rather than ported - I always figured a high port is going to risk hitting the roof of the mouth, depending on the mouth of the horse. So you're down to a low wide port or mullen mouth. I personally tend to go for things without corners - as corners are pressure points. But thats personal and I think it depends a lot on the horse.

Jakes mum mentioned a happy mouth - this would give some flexion to help the bit fit in the mouth and with the tongue, and would also be quite a mild solution ?

[cvb]

Jojoba

Sorry - have a habit of not answering questions, so I'll have another go..

Yes you should be able to use a lip strap with a jointed snaffle - but this won't keep the nutcracker APART, rather act as usual to stop the curb chain doing odd things !

So you have

- lever/poll action based on the shanks of the curb
- curb action in chin, depends on the kind of chain used
- nutcracker action of snaffle

Just a thought - dutch gags tend to have quite narrow mouthpieces as well - so would a mullen mouth pelham be narrower than your gag ?

I think that he leant in the eggbutt snaffle but not in the FL ?
And the combination of FL for schooling and gag for other is fine except that he gets quite strong ? Do you use 2 reins on the gag or one ?

[JOJOBA]

if he is heavy in your hands then the answer is to school him to take more weright behind, come off the forehand and lighten in front, not to change bits.
Ive schooled him intensively for the last 5 years to no avail. He works about an hour a day (with hacking at least once or twice a week, so he doesnt get bored) and I do lateral work, transitions, the occasional jump (going to work on this soon), and sometimes groundwork. Ive had friends ride him, instructors school him, Ive had his back and teeth checked and had custom made tack made up for him. Ive lunged him, longreined him, kept him in, turned him out, had regular vet checks, done mineral suppliments... I try and school him to work properly from behind but with him it's like banging your head on a brick wall. NOTHING seems to work for him. You know how frustrating it is when everything you try doesnt have any effect. Now Im having to look for a sharer for him because I cant school him enough - he needs more work than he's getting. Hopefully the extra work will help him build up more muscle and make it easier to work him properly. Until fairly recently he either dropped behind the contact and concertina'd up, meaning I used all my energy keeping him going forward, or else (longer ago) pulled down so hard he left blisters on my hands if I managed a whole hour. Ive recently got him going fairly lightly in the snaffle (without dropping behind it) but it takes an hour's schoolhire to get there - but when he's there its really nice. To be honest trying out different bits is the last of a very large number of things Ive done to try and make this horse work more relaxed. I dont know if you've read my posts about his occasional bipolar personality - he's either the ultimate seaside donkey who you cant even force to trot, or an arab stallion that refuses to stand still, drags me about and bolts off to the ride (when with other horses) completely oblivious to my presence. It's now been decided he's just the master of evasion. Somehow he makes you ride with a loose contact and let him fall through his shoulder - and this isnt just me, everyone who rides him ends up doing it. Then I mention it to them and they look surprised and say 'god I never even noticed - how does he do that?' :rolleyes:
I dont pretend its just him (Im no perfect rider by any means!) but as Im getting better Im making him work more correctly, which is helping him - but I just want to make sure he's in the comfiest state he can be, and with nothing to worry him / hurt him etc, and only then can I badmouth his laziness and do something about it. :p
Wandered off on one a little there sorry... Mehitabel any more insight greatly appreciated.

Sorry to the rest of you - I have to rush out to meet the vet now but I will answer your comments as soon as I return :)

xxx

[Mehitabel]

if you've not had any success (has there been any improvement at all?) over 5 years then i'd be looking for new techniques and a new instructor!

Until fairly recently he either dropped behind the contact and concertina'd up, meaning I used all my energy keeping him going forward, or else (longer ago) pulled down so hard he left blisters on my hands if I managed a whole hour. Ive recently got him going fairly lightly in the snaffle (without dropping behind it) but it takes an hour's schoolhire to get there - but when he's there its really nice.

this says to me that a pelham is not the answer. if you need that much leg to keep him up to the bridle in a snaffle, then i would guess that it'll be even harder in a pelham.

you've recently got him going well - so what has changed that enabled you to do that? my feeling is that this is where you need to keep your direction.

what i wonder is *why* he is so determined to evade - are you 150% sure ther is no physical or mental reason for it? can you make it harder work to evade than to do as you ask?

[Aphrodite]

Hi Jojoba.

I was going to suggest that you had an instructor out to see your riding and your horse's reaction in his mouth, but it seems as though you've already been there (good on you for checking all avenues! :) )

If you are certain it is the type of bit, then why not try him in a bitless? Take care to ensure that it is correctly fitted by an expert and to make sure that he is comfortable. That way you will be able to see whether it is the bit he is trying to evade or just work in general! :rolleyes: Also, ride him in an enclosed area and make sure that you are kitted up and there is someone around, for safety's sake.

If he goes well in this it may be that he is in pain or just fussy with his mouth. If he is not in pain, then there are various combination bits (i.e., myler) about that would use nose pressure in conjunction with pressure from the bit, so you are not relying entirely on his mouth. This obviously depends what discipline you want to ride in, i.e, just hacking as opposed to dressage, etc., but i know at lower levels in some disciplines bitless bridles are allowed. In SJ a lot of top riders use certain bitless bridles or combination bits, so I don't think that'd be a prob.

It may also be his back. A lot of horses with back problems hollow and stick their noses out or try other ways of avoiding working into an outline.

Good luck with this It would be interested to know how you are getting on. :)

[Bebe]

if you've not had any success (has there been any improvement at all?) over 5 years then i'd be looking for new techniques and a new instructor!

Same here I'm afraid. I know the instructors at your yard are good but it may just be that their tecniques & methods don't work for Hector. It is possible.

Not quite a year ago I thought that schooling Bebe to go properly was out of the question. I'd had 3 instructors and none of them really made a difference and Bebe was become more upset and unhappy with being worked in the school. I was so frustrated that I said I was going to give up but a friend & fellow livery said she'd teach me. I had nothing to lose so agreed and now Bebe is a different horse, she's incredible to ride in the school now and I'm over the moon with how we're getting on.

If you'd said a year ago that a change of instructor would make such a huge difference I wouldn't have believed you. Now though its a different story.

[Yann]

often (and be aware i am not digging at yann or anyone else here, not having seen their horses!) if there is a dramatic change in way of going with a change of bit

It wasn't dramatic, she was just instantly more comfortable and settled with it, she'd already got the idea about rounding up. I'm not expert but plenty of people who know what they're talking about have seen her working and been complimentary about her. I've recently been schooling her in her old french link snaffle again and she's just as nice in that. She will sometimes drop behind in either bit if she's getting tired or fed up, but only then.

JOJOBA, I do wonder how much of a part your saddle has played in all this, if it is pinching him at all it could account for some of your difficulties. Has it been checked yet? You could always try schooling him in the treeless to compare how he goes if you like?

[Mehitabel]

that sounds like the 'good' change then - it wasn't clear in the original post. what i mean by 'dramatic change' not being good is when people say 'my horse pokes nose, is on forehand, i can't stop, then i changed ot a pelham and had an instant outline'.

[JOJOBA]

During the time Ive had Hector Ive had 6 instructors, all with very different approaches.
One was a Pony Club instructor, into having fun, cantering round, jumping and the rider working harder than the horse. She left.
One was a dressage rider, who was very into excercises, repetition. She made me realise I had to start riding better and go one step up from Pony Club riding, then she left too.
Next was one of the yard girls - she takes a very quiet, calm approach and has a rescued horse herself. She has done groundwork etc and tried to make us ride quietly and properly. She stopped teaching my level.
Next was an endurance rider, into making sure the horse doesnt know youre there - being 'a drop of water running down the sides' ;) . I didnt get on with her style and changed instructors.
Next was a guy who teaches and schools horses. He has a hunting horse and he is very into fast work, building muscle, working hard. I ended up having a large row with him after a series of bad lessons, storming out and quitting :p. But I do have the occasional lesson with him still.
Now I have YO as my instructor and she really suits me. She's into not working too hard - she says I try too hard to get things and actually impede them - she's quiet most of the time, and fair, and she gave me lessons on her own horse - a hanoverian x andalucian. Riding a much better schooled horse made things click into place, and once I knew how things were 'supposed' to feel Ive been getting better in leaps and bounds, then translating that to my schooling of Hector.
So it's since my lessons with her that Ive realy improved him - first I needed to find a style that suited me and that I understood to translate to him.
If you'd said a year ago that a change of instructor would make such a huge difference I wouldn't have believed you. Now though its a different story.
No I completely agree - Ive improved more with current instructor than all others put together.
If you are certain it is the type of bit, then why not try him in a bitless?
I tried him in Yann's Nobit bridle and he was awful - it's a pressure bridle but somehow he still managed to lean on it - he doesnt lean on a bit anymore but in the nobit I could barely hold the reins. I had no steering, no brakes and subsequently no control.
However, I did start a thread recently about my perhaps getting a hackamore (mostly for my other horse but I would try it on Hector too).

It may also be his back. A lot of horses with back problems hollow and stick their noses out or try other ways of avoiding working into an outline.
Im having saddle problems, as some people know :(. Im having the saddler out soon to redo my saddle, and he is quite sway backed unfortunately. The dentist (who is also the back man) is going to check his back when he comes next (this month).

if you've not had any success (has there been any improvement at all?) over 5 years then i'd be looking for new techniques and a new instructor!
Oh there's been HUGE improvement! But then a brick wall. :( When I got him he was a state - and also unschooled. We got him new tack, and I started just having quiet lessons on him and building up. Ive taught him to canter, trot extended and shortened, do turn on/about the forehand and haunches, leg yield (not great), rein back, shoulder in, travairs (sp?), and many other things. He's muscled up, and changed completely in personality (from a completely switched off plod). but we dont seem to be able to get any further than this.
Jakes mum mentioned a happy mouth - this would give some flexion to help the bit fit in the mouth and with the tongue, and would also be quite a mild solution ?
I have considered happy mouth bits in general but as he chews and chomps on the bit I had heard (mostly on here) that they can sometimes get rough and get bitemarks? I have seen a couple that had been chewed into fairly deeply, and someone on here said if your horse chews, they arent usually a good choice?

you've recently got him going well - so what has changed that enabled you to do that? my feeling is that this is where you need to keep your direction.
New instructor has taught me to ride better.

what i wonder is *why* he is so determined to evade - are you 150% sure ther is no physical or mental reason for it? can you make it harder work to evade than to do as you ask?
Well everything's been checked and I am very fussy over him in general. To be honest, he is never going to be a grand prix dressage horse, and I know that. He is a small, scrawny cob we rescued from a muddy field. However, I believe all horses *should* be able to round up and work nicely with the correct schooling. Today, for instance, he went wonderfully. However I know for a fact tomorrow he will most likely be a lazy so-and-so again. I like the idea of making it harder to evade than do as he is told - but the things Im asking arent difficult;
Go forward, and relax.
Move away from this leg.
Stop poking your nose in the air.

Incidentally Id like to make two points clear that I think I have missed out;
1) he doesnt ride naturally hollow and run with his head up. He just naturally goes with his head out and relaxed. He's long backed and tends to work as two halves rather than a whole. It takes a lot of leg and rein backs to get his bum anything like under him
2) My lessons are, mostly, not on Hector. I ride other people's horses and then take what Im learning and teach hector in his own time. If I have lessons on him I tend to get very frustrated - whereas if I ride a horse on my lesson, and then have a week before the next lesson, I can spend a week working on it with Hector.


xxx

[JOJOBA]

Sorry that took a while to write so I missed your reply Yann.
JOJOBA, I do wonder how much of a part your saddle has played in all this,

It's interesting you should say that - today I rode with a polypad on it, as it seemed to level it up very slightly. It wasnt a riser, just a general 'gelpad' type. He worked much better today than in a while. However I felt rather 'perched' on top (you know that feeling you get on a very light TB who is wearing a big thick numnah and a polypad? :p ). I cant see how it helped but it did level it very slightly and he worked better today than he has in a long time.
We're calling the saddler as soon as we've tried a riser on the saddle - which my old instructor is bringing - to see if altering the angle improves my balance and riding a lot. Unfortunately old instructor's 18hh horse decided to attack him the other day (again) and he's done his back in. Yesterday he couldnt walk, today he is nowhere to be seen. :(
Thank you for the offer of the treeless - it would be interesting to try - is Rio not using it anymore?
Can you use risers with a treeless?
Oh and maybe you'd like to have a ride on him sometime, and give the NR community a fresh look at him. :)

xxx

[Yann]

He's muscled up,

That's what my concern would be if the saddle was fitted to him when he was first with you. I had Rio's saddle widened 3 times in 9 months as she developed muscle through her schooling work, not by vast amounts but enough to make a difference. If there is a problem with it pinching then it won't be automatically obvious in his behaviour, horses can be very stoical, but it will come through as resistance, especially in the school. If his back looks a bit dinged in where the saddle goes it could indicate this. Be aware that not all saddlers pick up on this and may fit to what's there.

[No_Angel]

I use risers with my treeless saddles! :D

[JOJOBA]

These may help those posters who arent very familiar with us, please escuse my position in any pics which require it:
This is my horse not long after I got him:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/jojobapics/oldpc1.jpg
As you can see, all the muscles on him are the wrong way up.

This is my horse last summer, in his natural carriage:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/jojobapics/summer1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/jojobapics/summer2.jpg
He's improved drastically but still just wont develop a topline, as he wont use his neck, even when his bum goes under him he doesnt lift and stretch.

This is us in November. The best working pic :p :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/jojobapics/trot3.jpg
In all the rest of this set he was all scrunched up. This took an hour to achieve, lasted about 30 seconds, and as you can see due to tiredness etc I have been pulled onto my knees in the saddle, bringing my leg back as he has been backing off. But he has lifted his back and tail in this one, and is relaxed down, rather than back.

To see the difference in him physically as time has passed see
www.freewebs.com/hectorpony/thenandnow.htm
then you will get an idea of where I started with him.

A shot from last summer to show how he has muscled (and fattened up):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/jojobapics/summerhec1.jpg

I have other pics, for things like conformation, if people want them.
Just trying to give a clearer picture - I know photographs always help me visualise things better. :)

xxx

[JOJOBA]

I had Rio's saddle widened 3 times in 9 months as she developed muscle

How are saddles widened?

Wow this thread has strayed :p

xxx

[Yann]

They can't be normally, or maybe just once or twice and not by much, but the one I have has a synthetic tree which can be altered ad lib. I think they just pop a different metal head plate on and tweak the stuffing if necessary, it's a workshop job. There are other saddles on the market that allow this, but they are usually at the pricey end of the market. The last time we had it done was in the summer, Rio started being a little reluctant to round up which isn't like her, the saddle alteration wasn't by much but she was back to her normal self after. It's too wide for her at the moment though :rolleyes:

Hard to tell categorically from the pictures, but has the saddle become more uphill over time? ie the height of the pommel in relation to the cantle? If so it could well be the case that it's restricting him a bit now.

[cvb]

I tried him in Yann's Nobit bridle and he was awful - it's a pressure bridle but somehow he still managed to lean on it - he doesnt lean on a bit anymore but in the nobit I could barely hold the reins.

Yes - this can happen - cos horses are naturally "into pressure", so we need to refresh the "yield to pressure" thing. My first pony went like a dream in an english hackamore (well, relatively speaking ;) ). My second pony (the old guy we still have) just rode straight through it :rolleyes: like it wasn't there. My current mare is v.sensitive and seems to go in just about anything I've tried so far - though turning in a bosal was not "instant".

Just wondering - whats he like if you ask for "long and low" type work ? Though you are getting some lovely work there in the later piccies, there looks to be a little brace in the neck ? If he could relax there, it would unlock the shoulder, hence unlock the back, and allow him to transfer weight more easily and work through from behind.

I only really got this breakthrough with my second pony when I worked with a chambon with him - but with your chap I'd want to be v.careful that he was comfy doing that, because of his back. But once my guy "found" the different way of going, things changed - it takes a while as you start with fleeting moments and it gradually expands and consolidates. And you really have to resist the temptation to ride the "old" way (its a whole different contact etc when you find the new "place"). But it does happen. Its almost like you need to re-educate the muscles in the neck before they can make that change.

[Mehitabel]

now i remember looking at him before, and saying how much he had changed - hadn't connected it was you before seeing the pics. he is twice the horse that he was in those earlier pics, and if you're still in the same saddle then i'd lay money on it being too narrow. it is certainly a bit downhill front-to-back in that last picture.
WRT way of going, it's certainly coming in that last pic of him working, but as cvb says he still looks restricted and not entirely accepting.

see what the saddler says and take it from there, but the more i see and you explain, the less i think a bit is going to be the answer.

[Bebe]

He does look really nice in that last pic, it's so good to see a horse that doesn't have it's chin pulled to its chest!

I don't think you have a bit related problem either, maybe a saddle related problem followed by a horse that's used to going in a certain way and has yet to be persuaded that the new way is better (once they realise this it all gets so much easier though).

[Mehitabel]

out if interest, do you ever school bareback? perhaps give it a go - even if only in walk - and see if he is more willing to round up and work from behind.

[JOJOBA]

Just wondering - whats he like if you ask for "long and low" type work ?
Ive been working on that on the instructions of the NR members :p. He finds it hard. He's naturally got a very very bouncy, slow stride - he finds it difficult to extend and would much rather canter. His naturally upright head and neck (and straight shoulder) means he finds the long and low thing really hard.
We're working on it though. Is it photo time again to check progress? :p

and if you're still in the same saddle then i'd lay money on it being too narrow.
Different saddle - he sabotaged the first one by chucking it off his door and breaking the tree. This one we've had about 2 yrs, and it was specially made for him.
But check my saddle threads and you will see all the problems we are having with it!

a horse that's used to going in a certain way and has yet to be persuaded that the new way is better (once they realise this it all gets so much easier though).
Does anyone want to try and persuade him :( because I cant.

out if interest, do you ever school bareback? perhaps give it a go - even if only in walk - and see if he is more willing to round up and work from behind.
Yes - in the summer I ride bareback in about one in five of my schooling sessions.
It's hard to tell whether he likes it or not. He goes pretty much the same. I find it very difficult to ride however. Hector is, deceptively, the bounciest horse there is. Ive ridden welsh ponies, arabs, tbs, cobs, a show pony (which was unpleasant), etc etc. and NONE of them were as hard to sit to as my beast. He trots like he has springs in his legs. My instructors think it's hilarious :mad: to make me ride an hour with no stirrups. I come off unable to walk!
one intersting point though - he wont canter with me bareback. Even if Im balanced and ask correctly, he wont do it. We got three strides once, with his ears flat back.
He canters alright the rest of the time.
:confused:

xxx

[cvb]

Have you tried lunging with a bungee rein ?

Is the long and low a problem even in walk ?

Thing is that you start with a forward going upright beastie. Then you take the same amount of energy and ask them to "unlock" it. It kind of bubbles over at first til they learn how to manage it differently. Its practically like they have to learn to move all over again.

When I worked on this (many years ago) with my old chap, the start was very small. We'd be lunging and he jerk his head down, and bring it straight up. Then go round a few more circuits, and do it again. But then he gradually (a) stayed down longer and (b) went down (long and low) more often. Til it gradually joined up. The advantage of doing this on the lunge is they can work out how to start and stop - in the long and low outline - in their own time. This was using a chambon to "show him the way".

There is also stuff like stroking the reins etc which can help to encourage him down and relaxed.

Of course the catch 22 is that in changing his frame even more - it'll probably affect his muscling AGAIN - so you'll have the whole saddle question to look at once more :rolleyes:

Realised we may be getting off the track here - cos your original question was about him getting strong rather than getting him soft ? But the two may well be closely entwined. i.e. the "strong" may relate to both the tension and that you are getting close to unlocking the energy ?

[cvb]

another silly question - do you do tummy lifts with him ? His back may mean his tummy muscles are not as strong, which will affect his ability to lift his back and round and work through ?

[Mehitabel]

have been reading through your saddle threads - what a nightmare! i think if it were me, this is what i would do.

try to borrow a chambon and lunge in it - with a roller, not a saddle on. i'm sure if you search you will find threads about fitting and using one, if not, pm me if you don;t know how to use one. if nobody at your yard has one, then i think you can get them pretty cheap from ebay.

when i rode, i would ride bareback or with a bareback pad - basically a fat numnah with a surcingle to give a bit of grip. practice in it, see how he goes over the period of a few weeks with no saddle restricting his back. see if the canter improves over time with you bareback. it might be that he objects currently because he has muscle wastage or soreness from the saddle issues, and it is more uncomfy for him with you sat directly on top of his back. stick to walk and bits of trot to begin with, partly for you and partly to give him a chance to get used to it - don't try canter to begin with. have a neckstrap!

you can do some gentle massage along his back as well, see if you can find any knots or hot. swollen patches that would indicate muscle problems. if you stick to using your hands and just rub along the muscles either side of his spine, you won't do harm.

i think long and low work is going ot be the way forward for him, to carry on the workl you have done from those first pics to its conclusion.

is he stabled? if so, feed hard feed and hay from the floor all the time - no haynets or buckets on the door. do everything you can to encourage the back muscles to lift and strengthen.
what do you think?

[cvb]

(Jojoba - if you want to try Mehitabel's suggestion and can't get hold of a chambon - let me know. I have one that's looking for a new home so we could probably sort something out. But also have a look at bungee reins as an alternative)

[JOJOBA]

Have you tried lunging with a bungee rein ?
No - but he really is AWFUL to lunge. Any advice is welcome on that one. The problem I have with him is; first I use my voice to ask him to walk/trot/canter. I try this a few times and he doesnt flick an ear. I then use my body in a 'driving' type way to no avail. I then skitter the lunge rein on the floor. Nothing. Flick in the air. Nothing. Skitter near his heels. Nothing. In the past people have even gone so far as to lay the end of the whip onto him, or even flick his bottom with it. This gets a very grudging transition, which you then have to chase up to keep. The minute you stop, he walks.
Which is why my second point is interesting - I cant stop him. No-one can. Ive had instructors lunge him etc and he will not stop walking. He will go round and round and round until you walk up and actually grab hold of him and stop him, or else allow him to turn in. :mad:
The other problem with lunging is that in a riding school with hundreds of clients and every single horse either a livery or on half loan to someone, it is next to impossible to get a schoolhire alone in which to lunge / jump. :(
Also Im afraid *blush* I have no idea what a bungee rein is...

Is the long and low a problem even in walk ?
Yes but less so - he will relax down, but no matter how quietly I lighten my seat and put my leg on, he hollows out. I can halt him and make him relax down into a nice shape, but if I do so much as shift my weight his head is straight up. Ive never managed to get him to keep his shape through a transition - although when he's in the mood he'll drop straight back down again after the 'transition' part.

is he stabled? if so, feed hard feed and hay from the floor all the time - no haynets or buckets on the door. do everything you can to encourage the back muscles to lift and strengthen.
He is stabled, and eats from the floor. He has hay on the floor each day but also a night net which is up high.

another silly question - do you do tummy lifts with him ? His back may mean his tummy muscles are not as strong, which will affect his ability to lift his back and round and work through ?
And my reply is a silly question too :p - what's a tummy lift?
It reminds me of something my old instructor taught us to do? Run thumb and forefinger each side of the spine and the horse should dip it's back, then run them on each side of an invisible line underneath, and it should lift it's back. She told us to do this to help the horse flex it's back.
If that's the one - I do it sometimes and Hector neither lifts nor dips his back. He hates his tummy touching anyhow so the only reaction I get is flattened ears and a swishing tail on the tummy, and none at all on the back.

you can do some gentle massage along his back as well, see if you can find any knots or hot. swollen patches that would indicate muscle problems. if you stick to using your hands and just rub along the muscles either side of his spine, you won't do harm.
When I have time I massage his back and neck gently each time I ride, especially if he's worked hard and in a shape that is difficult for him. I just rub along his crest (well, where the crest would be on a normal horse!) and on each side of his spine. To be honest if it were hot I wouldnt be able to tell - his coat is so so thick and coarse.
I have been a little concerned that his coat is crinkling up under his saddle area - which is how it was when we got him because his saddle was the most appalling fit I have ever seen. However having talked to some people on the yard they think it is because he is getting warm under there and it's his thick winter coat crinkling up, and not pinch marks.
Incidentally I have decided to get the dentist to have a good look at his back (he is the back man too) and check for anything that may be causing him discomfort.
I dont know how much of this is due to his general back deformity anyway though - it may be he is physically unable to work lifting his back properly.

when i rode, i would ride bareback or with a bareback pad - basically a fat numnah with a surcingle to give a bit of grip. practice in it, see how he goes over the period of a few weeks with no saddle restricting his back.
Okie dokes. One question though - how would you secure the pad? I usually ride bareback (esp during moulting time!) with a saddlecloth and a surcingle. However I end up getting off every five minutes because it has slid back about 10 inches and, as Im sitting near the shoulders, I have no pad to sit on!

have been reading through your saddle threads - what a nightmare!
Tell me about it :(

There is also stuff like stroking the reins etc which can help to encourage him down and relaxed.
Stroking the reins?

oh and also, thank you all for saying he looks better now! I was a bit downheartened (is that the right word?!) after I posted some old pics a while ago, and people replied saying he looked better when I got him and I had taken him the wrong way. It was suggested that then he was fit, shiny and well looking, and now he is skinny (???), dull and scraggy.
It developed into quite an argument but Im glad I have some people who think I have done okay with him!

Thankyou for your help everyone, Im sure you must be getting bored of replying now but it's all being taken in and Im going to work on it. Please keep replying!

Thankyou!
Jo
xxx

[cvb]

bungee rein courtesy of Hooks in Sweden. But I know you can get them here too (just can't find one on Robinsons site)

This piccie has it attached to sides of girth - you can also attach it (like a chambon) between legs.

I would say this one looks a little tight for my liking...

Its basically a simple elastic chambon-ish tool :D

[Esther.D]

Re the lunging if he is not responding to asking politely then I would happily flick him with the lunge whip, fairly sharply if necessary. Always give him the option to react when you ask nicely but then if he ignores you escalate to a good flick (not a whallop, a flick ;) ) with the whip until he gets the idea you really mean it. Maybe as a driver I see whips differently to some riders, but a lunge whip is an aid and is there to be used if needs be, not just waved at him :) Can't help much re the stopping again though!

Good luck with the back issue :) I had a pony with a dipped back and he could never work as well as some others but he started to learn to work long and low gradually :)

[cvb]

No - but he really is AWFUL to lunge. Any advice is welcome on that one. The problem I have with him is; first I use my voice to ask him to walk/trot/canter. I try this a few times and he doesnt flick an ear. I then use my body in a 'driving' type way to no avail. I then skitter the lunge rein on the floor. Nothing. Flick in the air. Nothing. Skitter near his heels. Nothing. In the past people have even gone so far as to lay the end of the whip onto him, or even flick his bottom with it. This gets a very grudging transition, which you then have to chase up to keep. The minute you stop, he walks.
Which is why my second point is interesting - I cant stop him. No-one can. Ive had instructors lunge him etc and he will not stop walking. He will go round and round and round until you walk up and actually grab hold of him and stop him, or else allow him to turn in. :mad:
The other problem with lunging is that in a riding school with hundreds of clients and every single horse either a livery or on half loan to someone, it is next to impossible to get a schoolhire alone in which to lunge / jump. :(


Ok - then how is he to lead ? Work on getting good leading and then gradually give yourself more distance. Keeping close will allow you to use a whip to drive him forward and "teach" him the ground aids. BHS-style lunging tends to have you stood in the centre and pivoting. I don't do it like this, I walk a circle - size depends on the horse and what I'm working on.

Our Fell used to be a bit like this but I've been doing parelli style work on his leading and his lunging is way better as a result. (I could lunge him before but he begrudged m every moment.).

For the halt, again "teach" it from the leading stage. Check out the notes on the mark rashid clinic as i think there are some comments in there. make sure you have a clear "cue" to halt and then it should come more easily. Again - the Fell has improved on this by asking him to back out of my space when he halts "late" (i.e. on top of you). As they become more aware of your body position, this gets better.

And my reply is a silly question too :p - what's a tummy lift?
It reminds me of something my old instructor taught us to do? Run thumb and forefinger each side of the spine and the horse should dip it's back, then run them on each side of an invisible line underneath, and it should lift it's back. She told us to do this to help the horse flex it's back.
If that's the one - I do it sometimes and Hector neither lifts nor dips his back. He hates his tummy touching anyhow so the only reaction I get is flattened ears and a swishing tail on the tummy, and none at all on the back.

yes - its the second bit of this. I used to try it and not find the "spot" to get the lift. Then I found that taking e.g. a hoof pick (not a sharp one !) or the edge of a mane comb and running it down the tummy line worked. They "learn" it (like when you strap a horse) and start to need less and less touch to lift :D Our Fell now does it quite nicely.

Okie dokes. One question though - how would you secure the pad? I usually ride bareback (esp during moulting time!) with a saddlecloth and a surcingle. However I end up getting off every five minutes because it has slid back about 10 inches and, as Im sitting near the shoulders, I have no pad to sit on!

Yeah - I have a fat mare and we had sideways movement rather than backwards. I have a bareback pad - which if I carried on using it I was going to bung a breastplate on to improve stability. Instead we just go naked ;) I could have fixed a breastplate on the girth rings.

Stroking the reins?

OK. Take the reins in one hand and reach foward with the other hand - putting thumb one side, next finger in between, and rest of fingers the other side. Now draw the hand back towards you, "stroking" the rein. As you bring it back, you'll need to take the "holding" hand off to allow the movement - reach forward with it and repeat the stroke with that hand. Get into a rhythm with both hands.

Don't ask me why it works, but it does something to the contact which encourages the horse to reach and stretch. NB it doesn't always work, and may not work first time. Plus the first time or so he may jerk downwards, so start at walk and make sure you are confident in your seat for when he reaches down.

[Mehitabel]

can you lunge with 2 reins? one as normal, and one either over his withers, through a ring on a surcingle, or round his bottom. this gives extra stoppage power as you can use the outside rein for an 'oi! pay attention!' when is walking round in tank mode. that was a speciality of the poncey warmblood i used to loan as well - he just switched off and walked or trotted round as if completely deaf.
alternately, perhaps long rein in the bungee or chambon - then you can go out and about, perhaps he doesn't like going rounds in circles and switches off.

i don't like skittering the lunge rein to ask for upward transitions, i prefer to keep it solely for comunicating with trhe head and use the whip for forweards movement. don't be shy to flick (or even smack) with the lunge whip - ther must be consequences for him not doing as you ask. it may mean a couple of sessions of hell on wheels, but he must have it in his head that it is not negotiable (always assuming he can physically do as you ask, of course). then lots of praise when he tries. i have had the odd battle with various horses when it has been smacksmacksmack almost every stride, but in the end they learn it is easier and more comfy to obey first time, and then i am a far nicer person!

as i said earlier, it needs to be harder work for him to evade than give it a go.

a bungee rein is an elastic thing that goes from poll, to bit, to girth.

i wonder how much of it is that it's just difficult because of his back, and how much he can actually be expected to do? make sure you ask the back person/dentist about this specifically when he comes - it may be that you have just reached the limit of what he can reasonably do - but then at least you will know. if possible, ride for him and get him to watch hector in motion and see what he thinks.

the stuff i've suggested is what i'd do with a 'normal' horse who had sddle issues and needed to gain muscle to get its back to a shape where a new saddle might last more than 2 minutes. so of course you have to adapt it to his physical limitations.

can his night hay go on the floor? nets build up all the wrong muscles if they are high - the underneck one as they pull at it, wear the teeth unevenly as they often have the head on one side to pull, tense up the back and topline muscles.

are you happy just riding bareback, if the pads slip? you'll have a hairy bum at this time of year though.. the idea behind it is to see how much the saddle is hindering - so if, once he has had a few sessions and has gotten used to it, he tries to round up and lift the back, you can be fairly sure that somewhere the saddle was stopping him doing it. if after giving it a fair go there's no change, then it might be a physical limitation. you ought to be able to get at least as good work bareback as saddled, and hopefully better.

[cvb]

Jojoba

Debry House "Elastic Training Aid" http://www.derbyhouse.co.uk/ProductDetails.aspx?language=en-GB&ProductID=3180004

(a.k.a. bungee rein)