Natural and Western

[Skib]

Had a Western lesson yesterday - my first - to see if my elderly bones are up to trail riding on a Western saddle.
Teacher very expert. Horse totally responsive and obedient. But the aids and body position I learned was so different from what I expected from Mark Rashid's style or the photos in the Dorrance book.
Would anyone like to enlighten me? cvb?

[katefarmer]

I'm certainly no western expert - I ride classical/natural - but I think it's a myth that western and natural are the same or similar. I think the similarity is about the same as Classical and natural. Some bits are similar, some are different. I think the myth arises from the fact that most of the fathers of what we call "natural" today happen to have come originally from the western tradition and continue to use western saddles. Therefore we get the impression they are riding western - which they are, but with a natural spin, and it won't necessarily be the same as someone riding traditional western!

I come from the classical tradition, and continue to ride on an english saddle - but my natural training has modified the way I apply the aids and communicate with the horse.

I believe there are also different styles of western - Texan being different from Californian etc., and also differences as western is exported to other countries.

Not very enlightening, probably - but that's the impression I've had from mixing across all the styles!

Cheers

Kate
www.harmony-project.net

[cvb]

Skib

So what were they teaching you that was different to what you expected ?

I think its a lot like "english" teaching where there are different schools of thought and teaching. Especially if they specialise in different disciplines.

"My" approach is probably a sort of "classical western" ??? i.e. I'm not trying to build a reining or cutting or whatever horse - just a good basic way of going. Its the kind of thing that folk like Lynn Palm teach.

But - Mark did comment at the clinic how many of the western riders at the Uk clinics had a forward leg (and a braced back as a result). It seems to be a "trait" perhaps down to the trainers we/they could get access to ? Also the saddles we can get ? My saddle seems to allow a more classical position, but a lot of the ones I've seen position the rider in "arm chair" mode from the start.

[Jessey]

Pleasure and equitition western saddles tend to sit you in more of a clasical seat compared with say a cutting saddle (or a cheap saddle) but thats because they are made for very different things.
Lots of UK based western trainers have very different styles and you really notice a difference depending on where they learnt their skills (UK, europe, Canada or the States and each reigon within these) and also what they train horses for. I speant ages searching around for a trainer who suited my horses out-look on life :D
I think one of the reasons that classical and western are compared is because classical is about having a good seat, balance and working with the horse in harmony and if you couldn't do this (in the days of cowboys) after long days in the saddle you have a seriously sore butt and would struggle to make a living :D
I don't think 'modern' western is 'natural' but when you talk to some 'old timers' who still work with horses everyday and don't have access to gadgets or many resourses they do use alot of (and have always used) natural tehniques.
I guess it all depends on where you are and who you talk to.

J

[Skib]

I don't know Lynn Palm. Thanks cvb. I will have to look for that.
Nor do I want to be negative about the teaching I had yesterday or that style of Western. viz Harry rightly admonishing us Brits to keep an open mind about USA culture. So without making any value judgements.
I was told to keep my legs straight. This was intended to keep my legs and feet clear of the horse to allow him free movement. Perhaps because I am old and stiff, straightening my legs hurt my hip and back. It seemed to close my knee on the horse. I was all tight. My arms had to be straight at the elbow and my fingers also straight. Very different from being supple in all one's joints as I am taught and the soft hands Mark showed.
The aids (which were instantly obeyed by the horse even though I was a total novice rider) had to be more decisive than I am used to. Not suggestive or just thinking! After seeing Mark I taught my favourite riding school horse to back at a light little squeeze of the reins with no leg at all. In my Western lesson to back up I used the opposite: quite a rigid body and leg position and voice command while the reins were used only as last resort.
I had a very interesting lesson. I learned so much about Western riding which I did not know before - but it was a foreign country.

[cvb]

Lynn Palm http://www.lynnpalm.com/

She does "versatility" i.e. takes one horse through loads of different disciplines - western and "hunt seat" (and does dressage too). I rode with her about 15 years ago for a week :D

I'm not going to ask who the lesson was with - but thats certainly not how I ride.

LOL - Lynn had us bombing round her indoor school with no stirrups (and no reins as well I think ?) to get us moving with the horse... She would definately not recognise what you describe - and she is a BIG winner :cool:

[Jessey]

I was told to keep my legs straight. This was intended to keep my legs and feet clear of the horse to allow him free movement. Perhaps because I am old and stiff, straightening my legs hurt my hip and back. It seemed to close my knee on the horse. I was all tight. My arms had to be straight at the elbow and my fingers also straight.

I have to say this is not how I ride either, and unlike cvb I would love to know who the lesson was with (yeah, OK, I'm a nosey-parker but I don't care :D ) so......will you tell :D :D ?????

[Montana]

This is a fascinating thread for me. I have ridden western for 5 years now, but all of my knowledge comes from my riding experiences out in Texas, where my sister moved to in 1999. She was the head wrangler on a great training/breeding/guest ranch until her husband's job forced a move to California.

So, I've done a lot of trail and 'practical' riding, including youngsters, then started my own horse off western, participating in several clinics with Mark Rashid along the way. I also have a great interest in the training approach of people like the Dorrances, Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman etc. But, I have never had any official western riding lessons, bar one with a WES instructor, which felt very alien to the way I'd seen Western riding performed either in Texas, California, or at any of the clinics I'd attended, particularly Mark's. So, am I doing it 'wrong'? :( I don't brace my feet in the stirrups to stop, or put my legs forward to go backwards, or any of the things which I was showed and felt to be extremely large and unsubtle cues). This seemed to me to set up huge braces in Monty, and I just felt as though I was fighting him the whole time. Was it just a bad lesson? Or do I need to refine what I was doing with these cues, if I ever wanted to show or compete? Currently my horse works softly off a neck rein, has a tiny little jog, and great stop, has started lateral work, and (generally! :rolleyes: ) does all of this with minimal cues from me. I don't know how to start riding 'Western' properly, because the way I ride is basically the approach which Mark has given me, plus what I've learnt from experienced trail riders. How would I learn the 'English' Western riding?

[cvb]

"How" appears to be simple - "WHY" is a different matter entirely ! ;)

No - I don't think you'd need to learn "english western" to compete. Remember we tend to have judges qualified by e.g. AQHA and therefore to US standards ;) (even when they are british judges, they still have to pass the US judges tests).

Plus if you actually see any of the good riders - the ones that get to European or World level - they are all riding the way you describe - light cues, soft joints etc. Not the "other" way (stiff, braced, legs shoved forward).

[Jessey]

Ditto Cvb :D

[Montana]

CVB/Jessey

Thanks for the replies. I know nothing about the higher level shows, either here or in the US, so it's nice to hear that things are done the way I love to watch.

I suppose my problem is that because I've never had any formal lessons, and I've started my horse from scratch, with neither of us really knowing what we're doing :D , I always feel as if I might have missed something important. And the only western show/clinic I've ever been to watch seemed completely alien to anything I've ever done. I suppose as long as I'm happy with the way he goes, that's the most important thing, I've got no great plans to show or anything, being more of a happy hacker! I just feel as if I ever took him to any of these events, we'd get laughed out of the arena, for not knowing what I was doing :(

How do I develop myself and my horse through a natural western route? Can anyone recommend a good trainer anywhere near South Wales?

Thanks
Cath

[cvb]

Montana

My first ever (and only - so far ;) ) western show was the Scottish Championship Show last summer :eek:

Which sounds like starting in the deep end but everyone is sooooo friendly and also "not perfect" that it was great fun and didn't matter a jot.

I was a little worried about our unscheduled "spin" in the walk and jog pleasure class :rolleyes: (someone opened the gallery door with a crash just as we were passing by :mad: )... but I have since got hold of the DVD of the show it we don't look out of place at all.

So my advice would be to just have a go :D

There's another "all scotland" show in May but I won't have a sadddle sorted by then so will have to pass on it :(

In terms of trainers - have you checked out the instructor list on the WES site ? I can't comment personally on trainers down there. I do know that there is an NR poster "Epona" who I believe is a western trainer and is somewhere wales-ish ?

[cvb]

ooo - just a thought. If you can't get hold of something locally, I could always load you the DVD of our show so you can see something "local" rather than the posh stuff ! (Our spin doesn't feature so I'm safe ;) )

[Jessey]

So long as you and your horse manage I don't really think it matters how you get there :D I'm sure you wouldn't look out of place if you did show, you certainly couldn't look any worse than I did a couple of years ago when my horse seemed to be physically unable to keep his feet on the ground for more than 2 seconds :rolleyes:
I know there is a chap (don't know him personally but his stalion is my fillys sire) around cowbridge who breeds QH so he would probably know of any trainers, this is his web page - www.quarterhorseswales.co.uk/Desired%20Vision.htm . As I said don't know him personally but the woman who bred my filly said he's really nice so might be worth having a chat with him.

J

[Montana]

CVB - I would love to see your dvd, just upset that I don't get to see the spin, sounds great ;) Do these type of events tend to be fairly informal then? I'm looking for 'learning experiences' rather than treating these as serious competitions, I just feel I need to do something, we've been stagnant for too long now. I have checked out the WES list, but haven't managed to find anything to suit. I suppose I really just want to get more involved with the whole scene, and try to learn from it. Also, slightly OT, but how are you managing without a saddle until your 'about the horse' arrives? I will have to sell mine to afford the new one, but don't they have a 6 month wait? Do you need to pay the full price up front?

Jessey - I actually worked at Seren QH a couple of years ago, just for a couple of months. They're literally 3 miles from my home. Who was your filly's sire? Can't rember the name, but he had a fantastic palomino stud there (he did kick me in the back of the head, and knock me completely unconscious, but great conformation! :eek: ). Unfortunately, no one really rides those horses, they're very much a breeding farm, with very little interest in the western scene. :( .

C x

[cvb]

well, she also has a GP that fits and a dressage saddle I borrow for her - so it'll limit our western work a bit but not our riding... and there's always bareback (on a spooky horse :eek: )

I have had the current saddle on her again and she's not horribly unhappy in it. But I wouldn't want to do too much in it.

For the new saddle, they ask for a deposit of 50% up front. Luckily I just sold some windfall shares so can do this :D

back to instructors - the dilemma I always have is how you find the "off the list" folk i.e. people NOT affiliated to WES but still perfectly good trainers.

I haven't found a good source for info like this yet :( so I just keep an eye out for adverts, clinic news etc.

[Jessey]

Montana, that palamino is her sire! Gonna PM you, save cloging the board with chat.

J

[mustang fan]

I ride western myself. I started hunt seat and changed over.I found that after awhile It got easier to adjust. now im in to speed events and trail. I hope you will go to like it as much as i do! just give it time. :)

[Jumping Genius]

my trainer taught me western first and i though t it was the only way to go. then when i got into english i loved it. i can ride both and i think that natural riding can be in any disipline.i use parelli in my english and western riding it doesn't have to be just one. i ride english most of the time though! :)

[Skib]

Thank you so much everyone. I'm back with an update - though a bit like a man from Mars - I can only report what I saw watching some more advanced teaching.

Montana, I have seen you ride beautifully. You surely don't need to change. I watched skillful riders, riding with bent knees, bent elbows, very relaxed.

I guess I was taught the way I was because it was my first time, to teach me the basic language.
Also because of the horse. The advanced instructor said that the very pronounced aids one would see her using were only because she was on a very young horse, just learning. I now know that the horse I rode was backed less than a year ago.

Yes, the saddle I was on did dictate a braced position and was probably too big for me as I am smaller than its owner. I didnt see much bracing among the advanced riders on their own horses. Nor anyone who looked stiff and uncomfortable.
Most of you probably know this already. But for me it was a revelation to watch horses work cattle. And finding out that all the things one associates with Western riding (and natural horsemanship) - stops, backing up, moving sideways, turns, instant responses from both rider and horse are essential when horses work with cattle.
I liked this workaday purpose rather more than the ideal of competitive dressage. I liked it too that the horses and people have to work with each other, and learn from each other - like ponying a young horse as the natural horsemen describe.

Horse and rider together functioned more like a sheepdog than anything I have seen done with horses before. Since everything happens so quickly, one needs a very clear system of communication with the horse. And one the horse is familiar with so he doesn't get confused or stressed.
The riders sat relaxed with bent knees and leg aids were used to get rapid turns, with the recommendation that one should wear one's spurs to touch the horse. But one excellent rider abandonned her spurs as her horse was stressed by them. She rode in a very "natural " style. A natural horseman would probably agree that it would be possible to train a horse to perform all the necessary movements with light cues - as Mark Rashid might.
Some horses had been trained pure Western. Others had transferred from English riding, so that must make a difference too.

How to find a Western teacher? They are few and far between. People told me they travelled an hour to their horse and teacher.
None of the recommended things worked for me. I visited the British reining and quarterhorse websites but the only suggestion I got was 70 miles away. So in the end I did a UK search with Google and on this message board and visited the yard that was nearest. I liked what I saw and booked a lesson.
I live miles away from Norfolk and Scotland and South Wales. But if anyone wants my contact names who might be able to pass you on to people nearer to you, just send me a PM.
I'm sorry if I have written too much. I've been very interested to read all this thread and I mean to go and watch a competition like cvb says, and learn more.