Cheap,foreign treeless saddles.

[No_Angel]

I have actually found a treeless saddle my mom likes that she might be able to afford. Now its from india. They make alot of other tack aswell. But im a bit worried about the pressure and weight distribution of the saddle because not sure if they would test it.
What do you think?

[NuttyMare]

I'm not a lot of help on your question, but where did you find out about the saddle? Looks very conventional :D

[No_Angel]

I found it on the Yahoo Treeless saddles website. It was on the pictures page.
The only thing I worry about is the panels are quite close together.

Although, the man I asked about it says he will make it in any colour I want!
If you want to bulk buy he will give us a good deal! ;) :p

[NuttyMare]

Ooh, I'm interested. I can't buy straight away (no horse to put it on :p ) but if it goes ok in this thread then I will not hesitate to get one!


I'm having trouble finding the link :(

[No_Angel]

here the makes site.
http://www.silverlinetack.com/index1.htm


Here the treeless saddles site.
http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/treelesssaddles/messages

[NuttyMare]

Aww, you star :D

[galadriel]

That one looks like it has some symmetry problems.

Even when looking at saddles without a tree, be wary of products with a very low price tag. The materials and design are what cost money; if the price is not high, then one or the other has suffered. If the price is very low, then both have suffered. The materials *and* the design will be of low quality.

Since a treeless has some questionable functions anyway, you certainly don't want to use an imperfect one.

[No_Angel]

I dont actually know the price yet, but I assume it would be chap. He said he can give me a good price! :rolleyes:

[No_Angel]

How would a cheaper saddle from India differ from a cheaper one from Germany like my Trekker and the Barefoot?

[Showjumper]

Are you sure that's treeless? It looks very conventional - am most surprised Ansur have gone after Heather Moffett when that's about!

[NuttyMare]

Says on the website its a treeless english saddle...

[NuttyMare]

I got a little bit of trouble from him via email. Do not wish to post it incase it causes trouble, but he doesn't really like english people :eek:

[No_Angel]

Thats a bit shocking! :eek:

[NuttyMare]

I'll PM you No Angel :)

[Showjumper]

Can you PM me too, please?

[NuttyMare]

Will do :)

[Dales_Lover]

Me too? That saddle looks interesting....

[nix]

Hi

I've also been speaking to the manufacturers, they've actually been quite pleasant to me! :) They are Indian leather, which I'm not a fan of, but I am in the process of placing a trial order of the saddles made in English leather. Any saddles not of sufficient quality will be returned to them!

I thought it would be nice to carry a "budget" treeless saddle until Enlightened Equitation are able to supply me, once this ridiculous Ansur saga is over. However, I'll definitely look into the legal ramifications of selling this treeless saddle - I can't afford to get sued, I don't have any money! :o

[Drummers mum]

What sort of price are we looking at? Its a very interesting saddle. What is the inside made of?

[nix]

I'm awaiting confirmation of prices from the manufacturers, once I know what it will be I can pm you if you like?

The internal structure is rubber and foam. I do want to test the saddle before offering it for sale, luckily I have access to a number of different horses and ponies of all shapes and sizes to do this. HTH :)

[Yann]

Looks nice, but if the girthing and stirrup arrangements are as per a normal treed saddle, which does look to be the case, then I'd be most concerned about them causing pressure points. The Torsion etc. look like they do because they're designed to spread the girth and stirrup pressure over the full length of the saddle via a Y shaped arrangement of straps. This doesn't.

[No_Angel]

But my Ansur has short girth straps and looks exactly like a treed saddle, that hasn't caused any problems, so it must be the padding materials used.


Edit- Nix could you email me with the price aswell please! :D Thanks

[nix]

lol, Yann, that's exactly one of the questions I've asked them. Stirrup bar pressure etc is one of the most important aspects of a treeless saddle (and some treed!). During testing I will also be using my Port Lewis Impression Pad, which is an excellent tool for showing any excess pressure. :)

[Drummers mum]

That would be great.

Be really interested to hear how your tests go and some pics to go with it?

[notpoodle]

no offence, but it looks like a normal saddle where they just didnt put a tree in :rolleyes: i'd be wary because its important that a treeless saddle 'works' and is carefully designed to do just that - and i am sure there is a reason why treeless saddles normally do not come cheap (mind you, the trekker is not that expensive compared to a normal quality leather saddle ...)

julia
x

[Yann]

It also flagrantly breaches the ansur patent;) :mad:

[Wally]

Heaven forfend!! :eek: :eek: Not the Ansur patent! May they be hoist by their own pétard.

[Drummers mum]

What does the Ansur patent say then?

It all sounds very odd to me, I mean, someone invented the saddle but they didn't get all narky when someone else made their own. If you get what I'm saying? I don't think the Flexion even looks like the Ansur?

[nix]

This is one of the Ansur patents: http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US6434915&F=0

Good job Henry Ford never patented the car or even worse someone patenting the wheel! :eek:

[Drummers mum]

I see, well, I think I see! Wierd!!

Its all bloomin' ridiculous, what do Ansur hope to achieve, all they are doing is getting everybodies backs up!

What about all the other treeless saddle on the market? They just don't like a bit of healthy competition and SBS Flexion was doing so well!

[ajhainey]

Patents expire after a time, the idea is just to keep everyone off the bandwagon for a while and give the original inventor a captive market for a while so they can benefit from their invention and recoup their research and development costs. The alternative is industrial secret (hide the details of how you do what you do and hope no one can work it out) - that's what a lot of car manufacturers do btw - they bank on the fact that no one can copy them fast enough to keep up. Its not that they don't patent out of some concept of fairness :)

It applies to loads of stuff you might not expect - you don't usually notice as people are allowed to build something that copies a patent but you must have the permission of the patent holder (which usually involves paying a fee/share of profits). Generally rights are auctioned off to several companies and so everything looks like a normal competive market, or the patent was so constrained other companies manage to work round it (think dyson in the uk).

Not really looked around but why are people annoyed ansur is protecting its patent? Is it insuffciently detailed (as in they managed to patent the general concept which is unfair as there have always been treeless saddles) Or is it that they are chasing people whos designs aren't really that similar to their patent in order to try and put the other company/s out of business?

Just curious - can't find much on the net at all about this and you guys seem to know...

aj xx

[No_Angel]

I think thats the problem, the flexion was doing so well!

[ajhainey]

Ah scratch that question - was obviously just being a fool with my search terms - found a huge thread on EE just now - the short form being they seem to have done both :rolleyes:

Edited to add links for drummers mum
Theres quite a few in the forums. I think this one is the longest, although it does wander about a bit
http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/members/forums/index.php?showtopic=1351&st=0

this one is pinned by Heather
http://www.enlightenedequitation.com/members/forums/index.php?showtopic=1352

aj xx

[Drummers mum]

Have you got a link? I'd like a look!

[Showjumper]

I'd be very interested in the Pressure testing results, Nix :) But definitely check out the legal side of it as that one looks so conventional that if it sells, Ansur might chase you too.

[Bay Mare]

Am I being dumb? The Ansur :mad: patent is dated 20 August 2002, filed 13 July 2000. Surely there were EE/HM treeless saddles around before that date! How can they sue EE/HM retrospectively if their patent came after the inception/production of the EE/HM treeless? Doesn't it just say that Ansur have 'copied' Heather? I'm confused .....

Oh, and I know that Heather et al can't answer this but can anyone shed any light on why the saddles can't be sold over here now? I thought that it was confined to the US or have the worms patented it all over the world now? Can they do that?


Re: the initial pics, I think that the saddle looks cheap and nasty, not something that I would consider no matter how skint I was :eek: I'll be interested in other people's comments on it once they've seen it though :) I always was good at making snap decisions :rolleyes:

[galadriel]

They've pushed a patent through over there too. A$$es. I can't imagine how their patent can supercede Heather's "prior art." The whole thing gives me a headache--I can't imagine how poor Heather feels.

Nix, I'd be interested in those results too. Please do let us all know what you find.

[Bay Mare]

Patents expire after a time, the idea is just to keep everyone off the bandwagon for a while and give the original inventor a captive market for a while so they can benefit from their invention and recoup their research and development costs.

So how long are patents valid for?

Another thought ... for those of us with the Flexion SBS already, could there be a knock-on effect to us? Would we have to burn them or something? Sorry, not being flippant, it's a serious question really :p

Oh, sorry to hijack the thread, I should have started another one I guess http://www.skatingforums.com/images/smilies/redface.gif

[nix]

Patents are enforceable for twenty years :( :(. Flexion SBS owners need not worry, they will not be penalised or forced to give their saddles up :D . I must admit that I am very lucky and have not been named thus far, so I'm going to be looking very carefully at the legal ramifications of my selling this treeless saddle before proceeding. I will let everyone know how testing goes, if I manage to get that far :eek: