Bitless V Bit observations & questions!

[Drummers mum]

The past couple of days I have ridden Drummer in his bit, because of his sore chin and it prompted me to think about a few things and get some opinions.

He was much easier to steer with a bit but is this just because it hurts more?!
He felt alot lighter in his bit so what causes the heaviness when bitless?!
He kept sticking his nose in the air again and twisting it round, something he hasn't done in the Dr Cook!!
He wasn't as forward going in the bit but he was dropping his nose and coming into an outline, why?!
On a mini hack in the woods with some friends, he got excited, I felt very out of control and worried constantly about jabbing him in the mouth! I kept thinking, I wish we were in the Dr Cook!

All in all I prefere the bitless but was wondering about these things. I am still having some steering issues and I wondered if anyone can recommend some ground exercises to help.

Also, has anyone else got any similar obsevations, I'd be really interested to hear them!

[Drummers mum]

Hey guys are you all bored with bitless bridles already?

Rode in my Dr Cook today, much better! :rolleyes: Think his chin is still a bit sore though! Poor old Drummer! But its back to work on Monday so won't be ridden every day for a while. Which is a shame because he was just getting used to it!! Sorry, I'm rambling!!

[KarinUS]

No, not bored at all. Still excited I took the plunge! :)

I think to have a good comparison you probably will have to wait until the chin is fully healed. Then you can adjust the noseband or get the Cashel pad thing and try again. When the bridle works like it should (without rubbing) then you can probably get a better idea of how Drummer goes in the Bitless.

You asked me on the other thread about steering and I haven't had too much trouble steering but I also cue quite a bit with leg, eyes, body.
Maybe you could up your non-rein aids a bit and see if it helps him understand.
Again do that once his chin is healed. I bet having a sore hurt everytime someone gives you directions would have to be kind of distracting so it may not be a true indication of how well he 'listens' to it. :p

[tazzle22]

bloomin' 'eck gal ...... have you no patience ;)

I have been at work all day slaving for a pittance to keep my 2 nags in the manner in which they have become accustomed :cool:

ok ... now to your questions

well no first sorry to hear drummer has a poorly chin and I hope all is better now

ok ....steering prob better at the mo in a bit because thats what he was used to .... plus a bit puts a much more acute pressure on sensitive parts of the anatomy . Pain may be a rather stong word when bit used used sympathetically ... but there are still many more nerve endings in the toungue and lips than there are on the face. As you use more of the "look where you want to go" or "ride with your mind" techniques when riding he will get better and better.

Maybe he feels heavier in the bitless because he can stretch out and go "long and low". This is actually ok as it will allow him to lift his back and bring his legs further under. As he does this more and more you can thes keep him moving from behind then gradually ask him to bring his head up ...... mind you it might be he is like Taz and can work " on the aids" with quite a low head carriage. Is that what you are meaning by "heavier".

Both the sticking nose in teh air as well as dropping his nose easier inot an outline withough being forward going both sound like evasions to the bit ....... sounds like he is trying to get away from the sensation using varying techniques ( to illustrate using situation we are prob all familiar with with regard to discomfort in our own body) .... I dont know about you but when I have an itch between my shoulder blades there are several different ways I can reach it depending on location and circumstance ..... )

:D :D ;) ;)


Re the steering ...... it might be an idea to do some exageration with your moves at first.... turn your head to really look where you want to go ..... this will move your shoulders, hips leg etc as per usual technique ... but AFTER you have looked .. open your inside hand several inches to the side you want drummer to turn. I would make the turns quite acute to start with ...... the "square turn". Perhaps using poles on the gound or large cones so yiu have something to aim for .... makes the brain think about where it wants to go so whole body aims for the target.

...... and if you believe that horses can pick up pictoral communication or intent from humans ........then of course them mental picture will help. :)

I certainly find that when approaching a turning off a road if I really concentrate and look in the direction I want her to go then i do not need to even touch the riens.


have fun

[Drummers mum]

bloomin' 'eck gal ...... have you no patience
Sorry :o

I wasn't at work and so I got impatient!

I think you are both right when you say I need to ride more with my body. I have turned into a bit of a lazy rider! :o

Hadn't thought about the dropping his nose being evasion too! Although the twisty head thing definitely is. Very annoying too! :rolleyes:

Maybe he feels heavier in the bitless because he can stretch out and go "long and low". This is actually ok as it will allow him to lift his back and bring his legs further under. As he does this more and more you can thes keep him moving from behind then gradually ask him to bring his head up ...... mind you it might be he is like Taz and can work " on the aids" with quite a low head carriage. Is that what you are meaning by "heavier".
Drummer loves to walk with his nose nearly on the ground on a loose rein and I don't have any steering problems then either?! Then when I ask for a contact he feels heavy in my hands. I am going to think about this some more when I next ride him.

Thanks for all your help tazzle, Drummers chin is getting better but its still a bit sore on one side. I have one of Sheilas new protection thingys on order so that it won't happen again!

[Mehitabel]

1 and 2 - using a bit shouldn't hurt. you can haul them round in a bit and it will hurt, but it doesn't need to. an old instructor of mine used to tie a loop of thread (a few times round) between the bit and the reins, and i had to ride with that - if the thread broke, no reins. drummer has been broken in and trained for years in a bit, and they don't pick it up automatically. just the smae for a bitless - they won't know by magic what you want, you have to teach them. he is still learning how to go in a bitless.

3 - had teeth checked lately? certain the mouthpiece is comfy for him?

4 - again, because that is what he has been trained to do. if he is used to a bit, and perhaps also used to restrictive hands, previous owners etc, then that can explain the lack of forwardness. is he actiually on the bit, or going behind it? if it's just tucked in nose and no activation from behind, then it's behind the bit. on the bit should be forward, seekign a contact and takign the rein with the impulsion.

5 - if you are of the opinion that bits=bad thing, then you wil be anxious about using it. if you are confident in your hands and you know how the bit works, then you will have the confidence to use it. you need ot be sure of your seat and hands and know that you can use the bit and not jab him in the mouth.

personally, i don't believe that a bit is automatically a bad thing or a tool to cause pain. i know it can, but it doesn't have to.

[Yann]

The bit is acting on more sensitive areas, so you will get a more precise response. It's not hurting him unless you're being rough, he can just feel your aids a bit more precisely.

And rightly or wrongly it does seem more difficult to get and keep an outline when there is no bit, especially with a greenish horse.

[tazzle22]

personally, i don't believe that a bit is automatically a bad thing or a tool to cause pain. i know it can, but it doesn't have to.

def agree on this ........ not automatically a bad thing , it is just a tool

but easier to misuse ... either accidentally or deliberately ( not maliciously but strongly in an attempt to communicate). I have seen so many horse in discomfort with bits in .... it is not the bit per se ....but usually

* lack of riders knowledge, of individual horses mouth shape and relationship to bits

* poor observation of horses attempts to communicate ( forcing open mouth shut with dropped noseband when what horse needs is dental attention or different bit)

* lack of wareness of riders own bodys action ( eg see sawing horses mouth whilst swearing hands are still !!!)

* sadly novice riders can inflict the worst discomfort in using the reins to balance.... it is instinctive to tense and grab if you feel unbalanced so this is no detriment to novices ( after all I was one :cool: ) . I would dealy love to see ALL riding shool horses working in bitless bridles.

Mind you I would also like to see novices learn to ride bareback so they develop balance from the beginning.... but in these days of insurance / litigation etc etc etc hardly likely to happen in riding schools :eek:

ah well now I have righted the horse world :p :D :D :p i'm off to bed ...

[Drummers mum]

I think I need a stint of bareback but Drummer knows I am not confident and runs off with me , lol! Its dead funny!! :D

I am confident that my seat is good enough not to use the reins as a balancing aid. I rode in my bit again last night (chin still not really right) and we trotted right round the orchard on a loose rein, it was lovely, I pretended I was a cowgirl!! :o and practiced sitting, rising and standing in my srirrups. Drummer seemed to enjoy it!

I agree with what you say about the bit being a tool, its not a bad thing and Drummer doesn't seem to mind his but I feel that there are better ways and he is more forward going in his bitless and I have better control when he gets excited!

Drummer has only had me and his breeder as an owner, neither of us are heavy handed and at 6 he hasn't been trained that long. He is very good on the ground with pressure exercises but he just doesn't seem to get it when I am in the saddle!

[hackedoff]

just some observations from using Dr Cook for a month or so-

Initially, horse leant on the bridle and overbent, but this has been getting better and better. In canter he will poke his nose out but like Drummer he's young (rising 6) and a tad hollow still, so time will tell, and its no worse than it was in the Myler. Steering is great as long as I really 'open the door' the way I want to go and cue seat and weight aids first (makes for an interesting lively ride through our woods!). Brakes are great, again no less brakes than his Myler or mullen.
Enough of the tech stuff!!! Archer is a happy little bean in the Dr Cook, less inclined to nap if he doesnt want to go first, less spooky, less reactive and has a whole new gear in walk. And I can get the bridle on without resorting to bribery and off without having a bit spat on to the top of my head.
I also agree with DM- it is excellent for my sons to ride him in as kids dont always have the kindest hands and it has taught them that steering and stopping are not done purely by hauling on the mouth.
My YO wants to now buy a load for the weekend riding club, she tried it on a napmeister Fell, a one-eyed TB who headshakes, and a 32-year-old Arab who is still an exocet all with positive outcomes.
Enough feedback for ya DM? :D Still think you should be getting commision from 'whatsherface' ha ha Sheila.

[Drummers mum]

Cool hackedoff, thats great!

I agree with the gears thing, with Drummer, in a bit its either go or stop but with the bitless I seem to have some in between!!

[cvb]

He felt alot lighter in his bit so what causes the heaviness when bitless?!

Horses are naturally "in to pressure" animals - its a survival thing. Its us who teach them to be "yield to pressure" instead.

I'm just reading a book on how to train a horse in a bosal (western bitless) and the principles are going to be similar. (And also similar to how you originally teach a horse rein aids when you "bit" them).

Its all about release - that when you ask, and get the right response, you don't keep on asking ;)

Ed Connell (the author) talks about "tucking" a horse (its quite an old fashioned book so you have to interpret sometimes). He's basically telling you how to teach a horse to yield to the nose pressure and be soft and light.

Its the same thing with any bitless basically.... you need to teach them what you are asking for, be consistent with both the ask and the release.. and then it will all get lighter :D