Legs on when rising or sitting?

[fionahogg]

When in rising trot, should I use my leg when rising or sitting? At the moment I use them when I sit...

[Serita]

You are right - as you sit, squeeze with the legs. If you use your legs on rising you lose your balance and interfere with the horses mouth - that's why many beginners horses stop!

[Serita]

You are right - squeeze with your legs as you sit. If you use your legs as you rise you lose your balance and interfere with the horses - that's why beginners horses stop just when they get them trotting!

[Serita]

Sorry for duplicate replies - had a slight problem..............

[Jo]

Hi

Sorry to contradict, but I have been taught to use the ;ower leg when rising - if you are on the correct diagonal it means you are asking your horse to step under as his outside hind is in motion.

It seems aloen at first but not for long

[intouch]

Are we talking about using the lower leg EVERY time we sit - or rise? Surely if the horse is moving forward at the required pace, the leg is only required if a change of pace is asked for - at whatever point of the trot? I think developing a still lower leg which is in control and can be used when needed is the answer.:confused:

[Jo]

hi

No, I did not mean that you should niggle the horse that is going forward but that when needed, the leg should be used when rising.

[floppy]

there was a thread on this question before as to whether you give the aids when you sit or rise and alot of people will tell you whe you sit and others when you rise..i too would like to know which way is right or if it doesnt matter...

heather?

[intouch]

I asked Heather about this at EETT and her reply was that although the theory about using your legs as you rise has some substance, it is generally easier and less unbalancing for the average rider to use the legs when sitting. I have searched many other books and trainers for info on this and cannot find any reference to it anywhere. I was taught (BHS) to use legs as u sit and I teach this to my beginners until they are balanced enough to use them either rising or sitting, without loosing balance.

[Fran_C]

My view is that it is not over important so long as whenyou use your legs you are not affecting any other aids at the same time, I tend to squeeze as I rise as It works better for me but if you can keep your balance better as you sit then squeeze as you sit. Also don't get into the trap of squeezing hard every time you rise/sit if your horse is working well underneath you then your legs should be relaxed against the horses sides - like a wet cloth- as the germans say!

[Serita]

I agree with Intouch - you should be able to use your legs at any time you need them. It is much easier to use them as you sit until you have gained that 'independent seat' where you could ride with pieces of string and you don't really need to use stirrups!!!! (Had this a few times.................)

[Kerry's Partner!!]

If Heather has the time it would be nice to hear her views. I would be especially interested since I think I've been taught both ways too (that is to give the aid when you sit and to give the aid when you rise). I've just come back from riding and I can't say what I do now - I think I give the aid whenever it is needed regardless but I've really had to think about it.

[intouch]

Just got Sylvia Loch's new book, on page 53 there is a photo of her using her leg in the sitting phase, and again on page 105, and on page 110 she says"In he slower contained trot the rider should weight thestirrups a little more, close the leg against the horse in the sit phase of the trot, and feel a moment of pause and support within her own body to invite a slower trot from the horse". While I kow this is not definitive, at least it is something to go on.

[Lizabelle]

I was taught to use my leg on the rise section. I always found easier especially as a beginner when it helped me to think squeeze - let go. I'm very used to it now though.
Elizabeth

[Sue Carnell]

Heather usually teaches the rider to use the lower leg in an in and forward squeeze, or light touch when the rider is in the sit phase of the rising trot. She finds that most riders find this is the easiest time for the rider and least likely to unbalance them or the horse. This should not be every time, but in order to increase impulsion. The horse shouldn't be nagged with every step, or he will become 'dead to the leg'.

Hope this helps.

Sue Carnell
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Kerry's Partner!!]

Thank you very much indeed for your reply Sue. I haven't been on the board for about a week and have noticed today your replies. Please also pass on my wishes that Heather is OK.

[fionahogg]

Thanks for everyone's responses. I think it would be extremely useful for me to learn to use the leg when I rise. It makes sense to be able to use them whenever you need to, whether your rising or sitting.

Cheers,

Fiona.

[Cas]

Why are we using both legs at the same time? In order to ask a horse to step forward and under, one leg needs to be used, and at the correct time - that is as the horse's leg leaves the ground. Squeezing with both legs just compresses the horses ribs. One of your legs supports whilst the other squeezes as the horse's hind leg lifts off the ground. If you use your leg whilst the horse's leg is ON the ground, the horse either does nothing (there is nothing to do with that leg at that time) or he braces against the rider's leg, causing the rider to use the leg more strongly. Just using the leg at the correct TIME is enough to prevent this.

[Dizzy]

I've been following this thread with interest, and can honestly say because its so long that I ridden regulary I can't visualise what I do when I'm trotting.

I've been reading Heather's book tonight when I should have been working (tut tut) and she says that you should use your calfs (squeeze) at the same time, once during each stride, in time to the one-two beat. But if I remember correctly you use the seat muscles individually, as the right back leg pushes off the ground, tighten your right seat muscle, which will cause that side of your bum to lift, allowing the horse freedom to step underneath.

Now I know I haven't conciously tried this whilst riding, I have tried it on a stool (what a sad life I lead lol!) but I can see the logic in it and can sort of imagine it as a flowing movement from calf to seat muscle, impulsion from the calf, freedom to step through by lifting your seat muscle.

But I'm a little confused, as from what I've described you will use your calfs as you sit, tighten your seat as you rise, but Heather also says that the more experienced/balanced rider should squeeze as they rise, so is it squeezeand tighten at the same time? I would love the chance to play about with this.

Would someone please try this and report back, as I'm unable to ride at the moment, but dying to try.

Lesley

[Sue Carnell]

The use of the seat muscles in that way is a collecting aid and not done in rising trot Dizzy, or all the time, but for collecting the horse.

We use both legs for a trot transition, one at a time for walk and one in advance of the other (outside leg lightly behind the girth, quickly followed by inside leg at the girth) for canter. In rising trot we use both legs to create impulsion, usually in the sit phase, to make it easier for the rider. The horse learns these different cues and it also makes it easier for direct transitions eg: halt to trot, or halt to canter.

To create impulsion other than in rising trot, the leg is used with the swing of the belly and when the hind-leg is off the ground. In canter the inside leg is usually the most important to ask for the lift and jump in the canter. To collect, the seat is then used in a pinch, when the hindleg is off the ground, as you say, to allow the horse's back to come up underneath you and (in conjunction with the leg aid where necessary) to ask the hindleg further under.

If the legs are used correctly in an in and forward squeeze or brush, they won't compress the horse's ribcage. At least one leg will be used at the girth.

Both seat muscles are 'pinched' together to ask for a downward transition, the rider adjusting the amount of pinch for each, eg trot to halt would be a stronger pinch than trot to walk. Some horses need the rider to also use their thighs for downward transitions. The lower leg remains wrapped to keep the hindlegs coming under. Basically, you're stopping moving with the horse, lightening your seat to allow his back up/hindlegs under and keeping legs wrapped to ask for a square halt, or to maintain the impulsion in the transition.

Hope this helps. Heather is away at the moment, as well as being busy, but I'm sure she'll pop in when she gets back and help out, especially if I've put over anything not quite right. :)

Sue Carnell
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Kerry's Partner!!]

Sue, I'm learning so much from this thread. I know I keep butting in but I'd like to say thank you again anyway.

[Dizzy]

Sue, thankyou for that explanation it's made things alot more clearer in my mind. Could I ask why the leg aid differs in each pace? I know the obvious answer will be because it easier for the horse to understand, but I suppose what I'm asking why does it make it easier?

Lesley

[Sue Carnell]

The leg aids aren't used in isolation, so it not only makes it easier for him to understand, but also easier for him to comply. Using different leg aids for each pace also means that he understands which pace you want, whichever pace you're going from. If you always use both legs together for trot for example, he'll trot whether you ask from walk, halt, or reinback. Using your inside leg at the girth and your outside leg behind the girth for canter, puts you in balance with him and lets him know which lead you want, as it also affects your weight and means your inside hip will be in advance of your outside hip. If you also slightly raise your inside hand, it asks him to bend to the inside and leading leg. By asking with your outside leg, you're cuing the leg he strikes off with, then following immediately with your inside leg, you're asking for the jump and lift in the canter. Some horses need more and some will need less of an aid, but aids should help him.

You could teach your horse practically any cue, for example tweaking his left ear means right canter, but that wouldn't help him and would put you out of balance and leaning forward, which would unbalance him too. I think of aids as assisted cues and generally they've been worked out over hundreds of years as being the best way to influence the horse and help him to do as we ask. Is this what you mean Lesley?

I'm glad this thread is helping you Sandra. :)

Sue Carnell
sue@eclipse.co.uk

[Dizzy]

Yes, thats exactly what I was looking for, its something I'd never thought about in depth, and it was reading everyones posts not just on this thread, but also on other threads, as some people are taught one thing and others another, that set me thinking.

Its so simple, I've never had it explained as logically as that before, thankyou.

Lesley

[Wally]

Sue's last message made me laugh, It's so true that you can teach any cue to a horse that you want, tweaking the left ear for canter, it'd work. I was training my two Haffy stallions in harness and it is unacceptable for private driving classes to canter, just not done and a bit flash. Driving trials on the other hand you go flat out. So as the horses were under no illusion as to whether I wanted trot or canter for some reason I taught them to canter on the command "YA MULE" I don't know why, it just happened, in the grand arena at the Royal show I needed to get out of a spot of bother involving a tandem pair, I needed acceleration quick so to the amusement of the crown I had to shout "YA MULE" looking very posh and elegant. I also have a sheep dog who hasn't a clue about "come bye" and "away to me" She responds to "see 'em off" and "sort 'em out"

[fionahogg]

I bet you got some funny looks!