Rope halter ~ Myth or fact? [Archive] - New Rider Message Board

LodgeRopes

25th Apr 2005, 01:36 PM

Hi cathy, how is the bosal going? Hope the weather is warmimg up a bit down your way
The main facial nerve has always been a concern with bad fitting halters. We will see what we can find on Leslie, thanks mate.

Big ears, would really love to see your halter...sounds ideal, any chance of a pic?

Tootsie, We always pay attention to harry :0)
As the location and manipulation of pressure points is an exact science, we expected to easily find charts, technical papers etc on the pressure points on a horses head, specifically those that would be affected by the halter knots....but we can find nothing at all located anywhere near the knot locations. hence the thread..thank you for the link, we will check it out.

cvb

25th Apr 2005, 01:47 PM

she's here http://www.lesliedesmond.com/ ;)

HunterSnaffle

25th Apr 2005, 01:47 PM

The rope halter has worked wonders for me in the past. My last horse had some serious ground manner issues. With the help of a professional trainer who used a rope halter we were able to improve his manners 100% in one 2 hour period of training. I was taught how to use the halter as well. The beauty of the rope halter is that it will do all of the talking for you. There is no need to try to correct the horse by talking, yelling, or hitting. However, it does use pressure points like you mentioned and therefore should only be used by someone who knows how to use it correctly. I have an article on the specific pressure points that are affected by the rope halter...I will try to find it online and give you a link. :)

cvb

25th Apr 2005, 01:49 PM

also - there's a whole list of references at the bottom of "bitless bridle" page

http://www.bitlessbridle.com/tbbfaq.phtml

so some of them might hold what you're after ?

jUmPingIsLifE

25th Apr 2005, 08:04 PM

if fitted correctly the rope halter is supposed to work on pressure points (with the placed knots!) This is what Clinton Anderson says about his rope halter at least

Drummers mum

25th Apr 2005, 09:07 PM

I'd be really interested to hear what you find out! I use a rope halter for parelli as I was told the pressure point thing but I can't see that my results would really differ if I had stayed in a headcollar!!

LodgeRopes

26th Apr 2005, 12:01 AM

if fitted correctly the rope halter is supposed to work on pressure points (with the placed knots!) This is what Clinton Anderson says about his rope halter at least

Well that seems to be the standard line that alot of trainers who use the extra knots on the noseband say. What we are trying to find out is if there is any truth to it or if any one has any proof that it effects pressure points.
The one thing that worries us about this whole pressure point thing is the fact that most of these halters sell in standard sizes, yet within the cob size range ( as well as full, pony etc) there is such a variation in head shapes and sizes, that its almost impossible to ensure the knots are actually located at these alledged pressure points on every horse!!

Actually Parelli is one of the few trainers we haven't heard talking about pressure points with his halters ( which dont have the extra knots)
He does point out that the horse will learn to yield to the pressure of a rope halter, where as the horse with a webbing halter will usually push through the pressure applied or completely ignore it...lol...especially if they are like our ponies!!!

We have talked to a few acupressure and myofunctional therapists who have told us that the only "pressure points" or sensitive points in that area are ones that can help drain the sinus! Not sure if thats an effective training tool...unless the horse has a cold!

Bacharel

26th Apr 2005, 01:08 AM

I use a clinton anderson rope halter and the knots only affect the horse if they resist or pull away from you, when there is no pressure they do not affect the horse. The halters are also places higher on the nose so that they do not interfear with breathing.

LodgeRopes

26th Apr 2005, 01:31 AM

Bacheral, thank you for the input.
The 6mm / 1/4" marine rope noseband can be a severe deterrent to a horse trying to run thru a rope halter. In the wrong hands or misused, there is the possibility of damage to the horse. This is why we asked about pressure points....Trainers say these extra nose knots work on pressure points yet we are told by leading US equine therapists that there are no pressure points and the extra knots are there to inflict discomfort and/or pain by compressing delicate facial tissue between the knots and the nasal bone. This concerns us and we wonder how many people would be using these types of halters if the pressure point/knot relationship turned out to be false.
We thought it would be an easy question to get answered, but this has not hppened.
In fact one world famous trainer who promotes rope halters with extra nose knots, when questioned, admitted that he knows nothing about pressure points and dosent care! and then justifys the inaccurate advertising by stating that the extra knots really get a horses attention. Well of course they get the horses attention, they hurt!!!!!

It is all really difficult, as halter makers/sellers, this issue is probably more important to us, but the posts prove that many riders are legitimately interested on how something works and we all need to question techniques and equipment before blindly following the leader.

we do hope that someone can provide evidence, one way or the other, so we can all be better informed.
cheers and thank you
lodgeRopes

Bacharel

26th Apr 2005, 01:52 AM

In no way would I put something on my horse that could hurt or damage her temporarily or long term.
I myself feel it would have been more dangerous for my horse and myself during the process of getting ground control and manners. My horse when I first met her was extremely flighty and even pulled a girls arm out of her socket. This is was when she was in one of those nice and think nylon halters.
I find it interesting how some people can be opposed to the knots on a halter but then can go lead there horse out of the stall with a chain over its nose, or with a bit in its mouth because it has no manners. It basically saying "O I would never do natural horsemanship their equipment is cruel but Its ok when my horse rears and bruises his mouth"
I can understand where people come from saying the halter will harm the horses well obviously people put it so god darn low on the horses nose that it pushes on all the wrong spots because they are not informed properly on the use. Im not saying that people dont abuse the use of the halter because there are some that do. But people are abusing horse equipment of all kinds and putting horses threw terrible pain.
Sorry to type such a long post but I feel very strongly about these halters considering they have made a complete change in my horse. Some will disagree with me about these halters but all I know is that they worked for me and my horse showed abousoluty no pain at all.

LodgeRopes

26th Apr 2005, 02:15 AM

Bacharel, please dont think we are targeting you or anyone, that is not the issue and we never intended it to be. Almost any piece of tack can be misused, even the softest of padded webbing halters. That is not the issue BUT people who use chains dont tell you they work on pressure points. We train and ride with rope halters, but we also make and sell them, this started the whole thing, Trainers say there are pressure points, we cant find any 'technical' refference to their existance. Just because 'Joe Blow' says the halters work on pressure points does not make it true. If it is not true, then each person must make the choice, do I use a certain design of tack based on fact or fiction? Surely, that makes sense.
(B, only to willing to appologize if we have offended you, but we hope you understand we are not attacking anyone except those who have perhaps mislead us all, we only want to find out the truth about halters/pressure points)

Hope this thread keeps going as someone must have some proof of the pressure points.
Thank you all

Bacharel

26th Apr 2005, 02:58 AM

Did not take this offensively at all I just wanted to prove my point becaue I have gotten this A LOT. I usually explain the halter to people by using dog training for example. In the USA we have a training tool for dogs called "chokers". The name is worse than how it works. It is a looped chain for those of you who dont know that doesnt harm the dog. But to get to the point when the top starts pulling you pull back with more force and then stop. This gives pressure on the back of the neck to the dog (dogs bite each other on the necks to show dominance) and then the dog realizes to listen to you. This is like the rope halter when a horse goes to misbehave all you do is apply pressure and release when the horse responds. Its no pain just discomforted the horse will associate misbehaving with. I hope this answers your initial question, sorry if I came off defensive...would be glad to clarify anything for those who have questions.

Crystal Fire

26th Apr 2005, 05:37 PM

I have been told of nerve damage caused by badly fitting rope halters. My NH teacher is very clear about the correct fitting of rope halters, something he himself wasn't aware of until recent years. I know many of the old natural horsemen will knot individual rope halters for their horses, so that they do fit properly. Most often at clinics I see the noseband too large and too low, and the halters being too short from nose to cheek - so that they don't sit behind the cheek, but on it. I believe the nerve damage can happen on occasions of extreme pressure, such as an emergency halt, or when a horse throws itself violently. The ones that make me crings are the ones large enough for a hoof to get in if the horse scratches - but that's another topic!
My teacher doesn't make any claims that the knots will act on special points. You do see that claim made a lot on EBay though, and often the photos advertising the halters show a dreadful fit. :)

Tootsie4U

26th Apr 2005, 05:42 PM

Alright, you've all got me wondering. What is the correct fit for a rope halter? Diagram anyone?

Crystal Fire

26th Apr 2005, 05:54 PM

I'm not sure if I know how to do this...
<img src="http://silversand.com.au/loaded61a/images/halter.jpg">
... but if not look at the link!

Bacharel

26th Apr 2005, 06:30 PM

Actually that halter is not a very good fit, the place where you tie should be closer down to the cheek not up by the ears, I will try finding another pic.

Crystal Fire

26th Apr 2005, 06:43 PM

If you say so, but I think that the knot being lower down the cheek can be the main cause of the nerve damage if the halter is also slightly too short in the sides. Tied where it is in this picture it isn't going to do any harm.
We are very used to seeing badly fitting rope halters, even in adverts from well known horsemen and organisations. The man I learnt about this halter thing from originally is Phil Rodey, an old Australian horseman. Nobody's heard of him in the UK, but he was the guy who toured alongside Pat Parelli before Pat had invented PNH. He was invited to work alongside Pat when he first set up his organisation, but wasn't interested, being content to stay closer to home.
Not going to argue, just letting you know what I have learnt about this.

Crystal Fire

26th Apr 2005, 06:54 PM

Lodge Ropes - if you have a look at this it is one explanation of how the rope halters should fit. I'm sure others will be able to supply different versions though. :D
http://www.naturalhorsemanship.org/haltersandropes.html

LodgeRopes

27th Apr 2005, 12:42 AM

thanks for that.....we custom make rope halters so we know about correct fitting. Though as we stated in an earlier post its a big problem when you buy standard size halters to fit a wide range of shapes and sizes :-)

We can email sizing info and pics of correct fitting to anyone who wants it :-)
Your correct about the nerve damage caused by badly fitting halters tho Crystal! Its a big problem but when you see pictures of the experts riding or working with a halter obviously too big or too small, so its hard to convince people that it does matter and make a difference.
And your spot on about some ebay sellers talking about pressure points and yet showing a badly fitted halter. We have even seen these halters advertised as one size fits all!!!!!!

We still havent had any info regarding the location or existence of pressure points that are supposed to be affected by the knots of a rope halter!
Looking more and more like a marketing myth thats being repeated so often its taken as fact without question.
Anyone here know any equine therapists, acupressure or myofunctional therapists we can contact to find out more????

LodgeRopes

27th Apr 2005, 01:05 AM

crystal- forgot to add, we totally agree with your comments on Phil Rodey, a great horseman with mountains of parctical knowledge, but also has the ability to pass on that info in an easy to absorb fashion.

Re knot position...one thing we found is that it is easy to place a halter in a good position when taking a pic, but it is when the halter is being used in training/riding that position really needs to checked and adjusted if needed.

Great input on this thread.
Thank you all.

Crystal Fire

27th Apr 2005, 07:33 AM

A lady who is an equine behaviourist and has clinical background told me that the pressure point that can be stimulated to release endorphins is on the poll. On the rest of the face you just cause discomfort. So the Be Nice and other halters that close are going to be more likely to cause a release of endorphins than a standard rope halter. Until they are released they will be constantly stimulating that pressure point (like when they are used in loading and the handler keeps steady pressure until the horse moves forward). The Be Nice and some other halters actually have metal bits on them to increase the "effect".
If that is true, then the only time a normal rope halter could actually contribute to an endorphin release would be if the horse or handler were applying pressure - something that sometimes happens, but as I'm taught you would instantly be trying to get the slack back in the rope, so I can't see it having a lot of effect. Contrast that to the lady I saw this weekend holding a horse on a tight rein in a Be Nice, and giving no release... Well, I think I understand why so many horses rear up into the pressure halters (ie the closing ones). I have a horse who does, and she went straight over backwards in the hands of a qualified handler. (We live and learn!!).
Have you looked at Pony Boy's website at his rope bridle? I have seen one live and think they seem to apply pressure everywhere you can think of without using a bit. Interesting device.
Nice to hear of someone else who knows Phil Rodey! I've watched him teach clinics and also working 1-1 for two days with my friend - awesome!

Tootsie4U

27th Apr 2005, 12:34 PM

but it is when the halter is being used in training/riding that position really needs to checked and adjusted if needed.

.

Question: My rope halter seems to fit - the knots are in the appropriate places from what I've been reading here and elsewhere, but if I put (pull) any sideways pressure on it, the opposite side (the piece running from the knot by the cheek bone to the closure knot) slides up to his eye. So, somethings wrong with my fit, although Im not sure what it is because it seems fine just resting on his face. Any ideas?

LodgeRopes

27th Apr 2005, 01:27 PM

Tootsie, It is a little hard to tell whats happening, but it is a fitting problem. A lot of the halters stability relies on the throat straps (gullet knot up to eye loop & poll strap knots) being located behind the jowl(cheek) not creeping forward onto the cheek. Crystal mentioned earlier the problems with this strap crossing the cheek and compressing the facial nerves.

Tootsie, if you can send a pic of your horse in its halter(if you have access to a digital cam) to our email address (cypresslodge@iprimus.com.au or info@lodgeropes.com) We will endeavour to help out. We have found a couple of simple quick fixes to help out with some fitting issues. We can send you a fitting diagram and info sheet to help diagnose the fitting problem if you wish, just email anytime, pleased to help.

Crystal: Since we started checking on the pressure point/halter knot issue, we have found a bit of info on "feel good" points to massage, US therapist Diana Thompson has some great info on her site www.dianathompson.com
including a demo of a couple on the horses face that do seem to relax a worried horse. In fact, the positions are where most of us stroke our horses anyway.

Just had an email from a therapist in Sth Africa, equine shiatsu massage specialist, very knowledgeable and helpful, without going into a lot of details, it was a vote for myth not fact.

Still hoping for our concerns to be proved wrong as some big names are still telling us the knots work on pressure points. (remember, we are not questioning the use of halters, techniques, etc etc just the existance of the pressure points especially the ones affected by the noseband knots)

Tootsie4U

27th Apr 2005, 01:29 PM

Thank you very much LodgeRopes. Will get some photos tonight. Thanks so much.

Crystal Fire

27th Apr 2005, 05:36 PM

I like Diana Thompson's website, have looked at it before. I use GOVERNING VESSEL 24 without realising it's an acupressure point. Someone said once that they thought it is soothing because it simulates the feeling a foal would get when suckling his mum. What about that then?
Another aside - I can't stand it when the tail of the rope on the halters is too long. I've just looked at a picture on EBay. Don't people stop to think how easily that could flick into their horse's eye? As most are heat-treated at the end then it could be extra nasty.

Crystal Fire

29th Apr 2005, 08:33 AM

I've been watching my long, long hours of DVD on the Tom Dorrance benefit with Ray Hunt (2001). Loads of top natural horsemen there, including Buck Brannaman and Pat Parelli. The quality isn't brilliant, but it looks to me as if, even if the halter they were using was a little bit big, most of them tried to make sure that the knot sat back behind the cheek. The knot also tends to end up quite high, as in the photo in the link I gave above. I think that is a well-fitting halter, it's just that we aren't used to seeing them.
Also, not many ropes with clips on the end. Pat P used one obviously - he'd have to use his own product :)
I don't think these halters act on specific pressure points. The issue may be more that we need to be aware of the potential harm in using one that doesn't fit well. I know I have some in my tackroom that I use for day-to-day leading, but when training or riding I use my newer ones that fit properly.

LodgeRopes

29th Apr 2005, 11:13 AM

crystal- The link to halter fit is a good one, we know that when using a pic including a halter you make or sell, one tends to use a halter slightly larger than a perfect fit so the straps can be correctly placed to show what a good fit should look like. The pic is probably within a 1/2" of perfect and it is wiser to err on the larger rather than smaller side.
Your comments on halter fit are the real issue, and have encouraged us to try and provide access to good 'rider friendly' info (at no charge of course), the type of info we wish we had when we first started out in Nat Horse.
We have been chatting with Diane Longanecker, USA, who wrote the 'bible' on rope halters and she has kindly allowed us to use some of her info and images to add a guide for correct halter fit on our website. We hope to have the first page done in the next hour or so and if any one would like help out by doing a critique and make any suggestions if we missed anything...muchly appreciated. (just having a few probs making it printer friendly at the moment)

We are rope makers not webmasters...so it may take a bit longer...lol :0)

Crystal Fire

1st May 2005, 07:27 PM

Will go look later Lodge Ropes...

RodeoDreamer33

4th May 2005, 09:23 PM

I very much agree with Bacharel! One, because we both learned from the same place :p but also, it has worked great for me too!
Here is a picture of the rope halter and lead that Bacharel and I use. This one is properly fitted.

Also, to try and answer your first question, the pressure points have proved to me! I don't know if thats what you want, but for example I have lunged traditionally in a regular halter and that rope halter, and the rope halter definetly had better response! And that is just lungeing, I also if I am working with a training horse, I use the rope halter as their regular halter, for me the pressure points do work. I don't know if thats enough evidence for you, but it was definetly enough for me, since I have not changed since!

Heres the pic, by the way ;)http://www.newrider.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=20463

LodgeRopes

5th May 2005, 01:52 AM

Hi Dreamer, thanks for the input.
We are not disputeing the effectiveness of rope halters, or personal choices on any halter, we are simply trying to find any eveidence that the advertised pressure points exist. So far, equines specialist with recognised qualifications say they do not exist,
We agree with you about the effectiveness of rope halters, we train and/or ride in them everyday plus make 100's of them a month for resale. The effectiveness of the halter is enhanced by knowledgeable hands of a good trainer, but the halters are effective as they have the potential to be more severe than leather/webbing halters and this provides an incentive for the horse not to lean into or pull against the halter. once the horse gives to the pressure, the halter gives instant release...a great combination. All this happens without a single known & documented pressure point being touched. Example: aParelli level 1 student backs a horse by putting hand pressure on the nose, then repeats it by putting a hand on the chest, does this mean there are pressure points everywhere on the nose and chest? And the student, without any knowledge of these points existance or location manages to hit the exact location everytime? OR is it more likely the horse is responding to the general pressure & body language of the student not the stimulation of a specific pressure point?

BUT, just because you, your friend and we agree that we get good results from training techniques using rope halters, this alone does not prove that the halter works on pressure points. Then it comes down to a basic truth thing, if Joe Blow or Fred Smith says they work on pressure points, buy this halter, is that honest, truthful or factual? Honesty & truthfullness are moral decisions made by individuals, Factual information is a different thing.

This is the main point!!!!! If i decide to trust a trainer in teaching me how to build a new relationship with my horse, teach me how to set up my horse for life and take a good slice of my bank account to do it....I want the trainer to factually inform me of how and why the training & equipment works, not feed me myths with no factual basis. Some people may say 'I dont care about pressure points, the techniques work' Thats exactly what we believe...good techniques, done correctly, work and dont need to have mystical origins built up to sell more product.
We looked at the pic linked, the black halter has the noseband knots in the perfect position, beneath the bony facial crest, BUT as CVB pointed out earlier in this thread, there is the main facial nerve that runs down the cheek then towards the jaw, it is important the the cheek strap does not compress this nerve by crossing the lower cheek area. To prevent this, the throat & cheek straps are the made the same length, it appears that this halter has been made with the throat pieces much to short. According to Diane Loganecker, who wrote the bible on halter making, this is a major mistake in fitting/making.

Again, thank you for the input. have fun & ride safe

LodgeRopes

5th May 2005, 01:54 AM

Will someone be kind enough to help us out, how do we insert an image into a reply....found the insert tab but have no idea how to enter required script.
Thanks muchly.

LodgeRopes

5th May 2005, 05:28 AM

Hope we attached pic correctly. (with our luck the pic is probably now set as a desktop wallpaper..lol)

Have modified the halter pic to show where we prefer to see cheek straps on a halter.(white dots) The red arrow shows the existing cheek strap. The low cheek strap would most likely be caused by the throat piece being much too short.

Thank you again dreamer, it seems that no matter what, everyone that has replied to this thread have been happy with rope halters and the results obtained.
cheers all.

Silvia

5th May 2005, 05:50 AM

I have been told by a natural horsemanship trainer that there is no scientific evidence for the existance of "pressure points". She has been searching for the last couple of years and talked to a couple of celeb trainers. A horses face is an area that is very sensitive to pressure and lots of nerves run there. I don't believe its possible to place a knot over a specific nerve and I don't think it is necessary. Rope halters work by pressure and release and I have used them with good results but I don't get the feeling that it has anything to do with where the knots are placed.

Bay Mare

5th May 2005, 06:56 AM

Talking now from my scientific rather than horsey background ....

I fail to see how any halter, knots or not ( ;) ) COULD work on pressure points effectively. Even if the halter is correctly fitted there will still be variances in the shape of each horse's head and how do we know that the knots are corresponding to the pressure points unless we pinpoint them and reknot the halter to correspond to these points? How do we then know that the knots will STAY on the pressure points? Surely there will be some movement of the halter, even if it was winched tight there would be some slight movement when you took up a contact whether it be on reins on on a lead rope.

I would also be worried about putting pressure on nerves, anyone who has had dental treatment will know how painful it is when you 'touch a nerve'.

IMO the benefit of these halters is absolutely nothing to do with pressure points and more to do with the pressure/release method of training.

LodgeRopes

5th May 2005, 10:14 AM

Bay mare & Silvia, thank you for your replies to the thread.

Couldnt agree more....... we have been researching for a while now, and the result is the same....no evidence. To be honest, good quality and well fitted halters give great results when used by a sensitive hand. the interest in natural horsemanship has lead to many of us re-evaluating how we have done things for years, and that has to be a good thing.

bay's comments on knot location was similar to our initial concern over placement when making our early halters. Without thinking, we accepted that the knots worked on pressure points until we had a 'light bulb above the head' moment. It just didnt sound right! We then looked at the horse head and found the knots sit in positions to make limited contact with the horse.

Again, thanks for the input....have fun & ride safe

cvb

5th May 2005, 10:25 AM

Hmm - interesting to see that the picture posted does actually have extra knots ?? (over the nose).

I just have the "normal" ones where the knots are simply part of the structure.

LodgeRopes

5th May 2005, 11:15 AM

Hi Cathy,
You noticed we didnt comment about the extra nose knots,huh?

To be honest, we dont like them, dont use, make or sell halters with the extra nose knots, But it is a personal choice after all. But you knew all that...lol :0)

Hope you are well and summer comes early.
cheers mate.

cvb

5th May 2005, 11:38 AM

well, I was wondering whether to throw bosals (and soft/half-bosals ;) ) into the equation.

They, in theory, work on pressure but are smooth, not knobbly. The pressure could be on both nose and jaw.

LodgeRopes

5th May 2005, 12:15 PM

The vaqueros used to say (or so we are lead to believe) that nothing exposes the weaknesses of a horseman like a bosal hackamore. The thing we have come to like about bosals is that they require a back to the beginning approach. With an aquired horse, you always get the bad traits with the good ones. Halter/hackamore/bosal ( and 1/2 bosals...thanks for the free plug) riding does require you to start at the start and take no short cuts.
it amazes us how many traditionally schooled on the bit horses take to bitless riding if the rider pays a lot of attention to body cues and less on direct rein cues.
The nose/jaw pressure of a bosal can be severe and eventually desensitise a horse if applied with constant or increasing pressure. We found out about this the hard way :0)This is a little different than the standard pressure-hold- release of many styles of natural training. But a hackamore horse is usually really soft to pressure before the bosal is put on. This is done on the ground first.Then a 'bump' of the rein is enough, rythym not pressure often gets the job done if the work has been put into the horse.

We learn by our mistakes (they say)....gee i must be really smart then...lol.
cheers all.

cvb

5th May 2005, 01:04 PM

in parallel with my getting kit from you guys, I was also recommended (by Harry H) some books by Ed Connell . Interestingly he talks about "soft bosals" as well as hard ones. Its not 100% clear what he means but my image is of something like the half-bosal I have from you.

He does also talk about making sure horses don't get "hard" to the bosal. I have 2 of the books and read them in the wrong order so am part way through book 1 :rolleyes: And there's a third one out now as well.

LodgeRopes

5th May 2005, 02:38 PM

Hackamore reinsman is the first, followed by the reinsman of the west bits&bridles. Good on Harry for such good info, he amazes me everytime.
The only problem with those books is that the terminology is hard to follow at times. We have found it easier after talking with some good horsepeople in the states, you get used to the different terminology.
Don't quote me, but our understanding is that the hard bosal was the larger diameter, heavier bosal, similar to the one you got from us. This was used as it had a solid feel and when a young or inexperienced horse tried to push thru or ignore the movement of the bosal cue, it caused pressure, then discomfort on the cartlidge/nasel bone area of the of the horses head. This is why the placement of the bosal was critical. This starting bosal had little or no flex, but also released the pressure quickly because of the large fiador heel knot.(this acts as a pendulum, swinging the bosal back to a neautral position)
After the horse had mastered and become soft in all directions and stops, the lighter softer and more flexible bosal was introduced. often this was the end of the progression and the horses worked out their days in this type of rig. Only the best would progress into a bit.
We had to chase up some of the softer bosals for 2 of our horses, they appreciated the lighter bosal but did take advantage of it a few times and shadow, the pinto gelding in our pic, started to test the soft bosal by pushing into it. But this pony also regulary tests every fence post on the property to see if any are loose, so he can break them...lol. He likes to test limits.
It is all a great and sometimes frustrating learning process.
cheers from the aussie branch of Clan Armstrong.

Crystal Fire

5th May 2005, 06:13 PM

Well, I think we've got this rope halter thing sussed now between us haven't we? Ta Lodge Ropes :)
Now I'm noticing the photos of badly fitted halters all over the Net!

RodeoDreamer33

5th May 2005, 09:35 PM

Me again! :p

I just wanted to comment about the extra knots. The one in the picture is the one I use for lunging because I find it more effective with the extra knots. If i were to have a good relaxed horse I would probably use a traditional rope halter. Also, if I were to use it as my regular leading halter I would use the one with less knots. So for me, it depends on what horse I'm dealing with! ;)

Crystal Fire

5th May 2005, 09:51 PM

Great discussions on here - thanks everyone!
How do you think the extra knots help with lunging? I expect we are all looking for something similar when working on a circle, but have different ways of getting it, so interested to hear your view.
I can imagine the knots might help if you had a horse that was inclined to leave, but in my experience if they really intend going not a lot will stop them.

LodgeRopes

6th May 2005, 10:31 AM

cvb

6th May 2005, 10:37 AM

Crystal........i'm still laughing.
Now we have halters sussed, lets move on to the next 2 big issues in Natural Horsemanship.
1) does a top lip twitch release endorphines, therefore turning normal horses into happy juice junkies demanding to be twitched. Then progressing to sharing twitches with anyone.
2) Should Pat Parelli have married an Australian, even if she was blonde and rode dressage.

Listen I'm not convinced by the "happy endorphine" thing - either that or I've been cheated. Every time I am in serious pain I wait for those endorphines to kick in and make me happy - and they don't :mad: OK, I may go numb - but thats not the same as "happy" on endorphines. Plus it takes some SERIOUS pain.

So - if these horses are getting happy on endorphines, will someone please tell the hospitals to introduce twitches into their pain relief methods ! :mad: :eek:

Edit: LOl - as I hit "submit" I had a sudden image of maternity wards full of women with twitches on their top lip ;)

michelle c

6th May 2005, 10:37 AM

i dont think twitches release endorphins!!!!! :mad: i think it is that painfull that they cant runoff (because they are usually in stables when done) so they stand quietly, OR SO IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE!!!! i know of two horses one mine who used to be twitched and they both still put up great fights and battered people round stables!!!!! can i just add that i dont ever twitch now it was when i was younger and others told me to! if that was the case of endorphins, why do the horses take one look at the twitch and refuse to have it on!!!!

LodgeRopes

6th May 2005, 10:51 AM

Cathy..we have heard about the national health system over there, It makes us proud to be Australian to be able to say every maternity ward in the country has twitches.........and hobbles.
Also intersesting is that within seconds of posting 2 people replied about twitches but nothing on Parelli marrying an Aussie....lol. where is your priority!!!

We have a pinto that sometimes plays around when husbandry requires stillness..............this pinto had been twitched by previous owners, so we use a homemade twitch, WE DONT PUT IT ON THE HORSE, we just bring it out and hang it on the fence infront of the pinto, he then stands like a statue. So much for endorphines........

LodgeRopes

6th May 2005, 11:09 AM

We agree Michelle, if a twitch released all of these "happy" feelings the horses would line up to be twitched!!! :-)
Its amazing how many myths surround horse equipment! I think its the human way of justifiying actions that we worry or know, deep down ,is the wrong thing to do.

Any more myths out there that we can toss around? :cool:

cvb

6th May 2005, 11:26 AM

We have a pinto that sometimes plays around when husbandry requires stillness..............this pinto had been twitched by previous owners, so we use a homemade twitch, WE DONT PUT IT ON THE HORSE, we just bring it out and hang it on the fence infront of the pinto, he then stands like a statue. So much for endorphines........

We had a horse that loaded with lunge reins either side. You didn't have to DO anything with them, just lay them out ;)

As for Linda - well she's his second wife. So could this be part of his contingency plan for world domination ??

michelle c

6th May 2005, 11:30 AM

second wife?!!!!!! cvb how do you know soooooo much about parelli and what they do!!!!!!! lol

cvb

6th May 2005, 11:31 AM

not really. Its in various articles etc. He has a disabled son with his first wife. Working with horses has been part of his son's therapy. I think he's grown up now ?

michelle c

6th May 2005, 11:36 AM

is that kaytin? i think that is how you spell it!!!

cvb

6th May 2005, 12:44 PM

think its Caton - but yes.

LodgeRopes

6th May 2005, 12:45 PM

I felt sorry for his first wife... but it seems to be a trend..John Lyons recently married his second wife as well :cool:
If you do a google search for Karen Parelli she has her own site and last I heard was doing clinics etc
Well thats one way to dominate the world CVB...lol ...seems to be working!

Crystal Fire

6th May 2005, 03:24 PM

:D I heard loads of gossip about Linda and Pat first getting together from a lady who knew Linda and her family quite well. Problem is, I can't imagine I'm allowed to post such scandal-mongering on here! Was he right to marry a blonde Aussie? Well, by all accounts it seems she was the person who got him started on his world-wide business empire so she obviously has some uses... And then, she is sort of blonde, attractive and all that stuff... There was a rumour a few weeks ago that they were splitting up - yep - hear it here first folks ;) However, my friend said that about 3 weeks ago they were riding at the same clinic in the States, so looks like gossip was completely wrong then.
I had a look at Karen Parelli's website. She claims to have helped him to develop his programme and you can got do courses with her and her new hubby.

cvb

6th May 2005, 03:27 PM

Karen seems to have been involved in the first book (photographer ?).

Linda seems to have linked Pat in to various learning/training gurus (Stephanie Burns etc) which has had an effect on how the learning is delivered, rather than the basic principles changing.

Crystal Fire

6th May 2005, 03:33 PM

Yes, I don't think she's affected his basic training principles, but helped him to develop the business. However, I think in more recent years she's started to affect the programme don't you? All the riding with fluidity stuff and the work with the Balance ladies. That's a sound business move as well, in trying to make the programme appeal to a more conventional and possibly dressage-oriented market.

Crystal Fire

13th Jul 2005, 05:41 PM

I've dragged this up so people can look. On the first page I typed a link to a photo that showed a good fit - in the view of Lodge Ropes and myself anyway :D Then further in there is a picture of one that there is some disagreement over, and Lodge Ropes have shown how they would correct it.
Very interesting.
All my horses now have their own individually fitted halter with the knots in the right place, and I've dispensed with ropes with clips on for ever as well.

cvb

18th Jul 2005, 12:12 PM

on another thread someone posted a link to

http://www.barefootsaddles.co.nz/Bitless,%20Treeless%20&%20Barefoot.html

Page down.... there is a diagram of acupressure points on the horse's head !!!!

LodgeRopes

18th Jul 2005, 02:15 PM

The barefoot NZ site has a great review on different tack. Interesting to note that they experienced problems (as did we) with Dr cooks cross under not releasing pressure. NZ has a couple of really good NH sites.
The pressure point chart is similar to one we have, but this version is easier to read. There is enough difference between the charts to indicate that the info came from different sources although share a common origin.
Thank you very much cathy.
cheers
Rob & Sharon
(just re read this thread and still laughing at your twitch/maternity ward comment:0)

Crystal Fire

18th Jul 2005, 10:22 PM

I think some of the pressure halters and bridles act on acupressure points, but I've yet to be convinced that a normal rope halter does :)

cvb

10th Feb 2006, 03:26 PM

Right - I'm dragging this thread out of retirement :D

This month's Equiads has an article in it "The Bit as the Cause of Headshaking Syndrome" by one W.Robert Cook FRCVS, PhD

and in it it says The convincing results provide further compelling evidence that the bit is not only an inefficient method of communication but also one that is physiologically contraindicated

:eek:

anyway - I figured I would post a thread to see what people said, so brought the mag into work... and then looked at the end to check the references etc and people are referred to www.bitlessbridle.co.uk

aha - the games afoot

here is the article in full
http://www.bitlessbridle.co.uk/fear-of-the-bit-part-2.php

and it has a diagram of the horse's head and the nerve...

so I thought this thread would be the best home for it :p

LodgeRopes

11th Feb 2006, 01:08 PM

CVB....the games afoot me thinks :0)

Just when i could relax and perhaps do something non horse related, you had to do this.........aghhhhhhhhhhh!!!

It is a well written article, but full of 'interesting' facts. The diagram in the arcticle clearly shows the nerve structures that are of concern when positioning a bridle/halter on a horse. These nerves were mentioned in 2 earlier threads i was involved with. We take great care when designing a new rope halter/bridle that no component compress or even cross the facial nerves that transect the cheek where the nerve can be impinged or damaged if compressed between cheek strap and bone. this has always been a concern with the bitless cross under bridle, especially the cheaper 6mm marine rope copies of the spirt or dr cooks bridle. the other problems we experienced were: slow or lack of pressure release and confused signals.

Most Natural Horsemanship styles are based on a horse giving to pressure then refining the technique to become as soft as possible. apply pressure slowly, release quickly. This begins on the ground but the lessons are the same from the saddle......follow a lead, give to pressure. This principle is easy to see with a rope halter hackamore or even a snaffle bit. directional cue to the right opens the right side of the respective communication device, this invites the horse to follow the lead. If the ask was not detected or ignored by the horse, then pressure is increased, the left side of the device increases the pressure to have the horse move away from the pressure and directional change is obtained. This action is not as straight forward with the bitless bridle. Our horse objected to action...confused with the intital light contact, tried to drop head and stop. If any more than light contact was used, they objected greatly to the "whole head hug" and the poll pressure. It resulted in one horse dragging it head along the ground trying to rip off the bitless bridle. The mare just stopped and refused to move till we removed the bridle (mares are like that).
I guess it all comes down to what works for you and your horse. We like to continue what we started with ground work, keeping the actions as similar as possible on the ground and in the saddle. It seems to be easier for the horse that way.

btw cathy, your gear is on the way, sorry for delay we had to wait for the black rope, included some black/blue rope for you to play with as a neck rope.

cheers from Downunder

cvb

13th Feb 2006, 08:48 AM

mares are like that aren't they :p

our latest recruit is quite clear that the clip on the parelli ropes is too heavy for her. She makes sure you are aware of that by throwing her head around to show you how annoying it is :rolleyes:

Swap to a nice light lunge rein and the head is steady :p

She's only 12.2ish and I think some of the ropes are just too heavy.

She's the one the bridle is for ;)

LodgeRopes

15th Feb 2006, 12:24 PM

i have a 14mm 22ft lead with a big steel ring & carabina snap for the snap shy horses. I dont use it, just show it to them and hang it on the rail.......they dont object so much after that :0)

seriously, on the subject of clip/clipless leads.
Years ago Sharon picked up that the snap can be a distration, annoyance or excuse for bad behaviour with some horses. We use a heavy bull snap on our standard 12ft lead rope, early parelli style, but we also do clipless ropes with eye spliced loops. The clipless lead is ideal for a horse that responds when you 'ask' for a response, If a horse needs to consistantly be "told" to follow a cue...sometimes a clip helps. But the dull or slow horse can sometimes benefit from softer energy and start to listen for an 'ask' instead of waiting for a 'tell or promise'.
Sometimes going softer gives a response closer to what we are after, then work on refining the response. It's all fun :0)