Leaning help.....with pics!

[Bozzy]

I decided to take our schooling back to square 1 recently as we seemed to have lost everything and I decided I was a rubbish rider!

One of my main problems was Ed leaning on me. Just been working slowly and one month on, we are slowly improving. We can now bend on both reins(woohoo) and our trot including transitions are getting there (haven't touched canter yet!)

He's still continuing to attempt to lean. I'll work him into a contact and he carries himself beautifully for 6 or so strides and gradually he'll get heavier and heavier in my hands. A few half halts usually remind him. We are slowly working on this and it is improving but I just wondered if anyone had any advice. Thanks!

Also any critique (so long as it's nice...i'm quite sensitive!! :D ) Hands up, look forwards and lower legs back probably being the main areas for improvement or AFI's!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/becca120/Eddie/EdShow030.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/becca120/Eddie/EdShow028.jpg

Excuse the mega chair position in this one!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/becca120/Eddie/EdShow026.jpg

Falling asleep....I said he was lazy!!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/becca120/Eddie/EdShow049.jpg

[casey]

I'd say to raise your hands up a little higher. When he leans vibrate the fingers a little too.
What bit is he in? :)

[Bozzy]

Thanks Casey. He used to be in a loose ring snaffle, then in a loose ring french link but I've gone back to the old snaffle as he seems to go a little better in it.

[casey]

I'm after a change of bit too, as my mare is wanting to lean also. So I was just curious. :D

I think you both look fine Becca. I hate to give critique's as I think one picture doesn't necessarily show how a person goes all the time. :D

But bring ing your hands up, will give you more control over his shoulders. So he will find it more difficult to go onto the forehand and lean. :)

[Tootsie4U]

Is there a reason you're holding your hands/reins like that?

He looks like a very nice horse!

The biggest thing I'd say is you need to watch those hands.

Horses lean because the rider leans back. A horse cannot lean on air. Half halts are good *reminders*, but they wont solve constant, continual leaning issues. In each picture he has his mouth open, suggesting he's not accepting the bit. And in reference to the 'lazy' part, a horse will be resistant to go forward if he feels he's blocked in the front end.

The biggest thing I'd suggest is working on those hands. Lighter is better. With your hands that low, its hard to be light. Keep your thumbs on top. When we dont, we have a greater tendency to ride heavy handed.

[Bozzy]

Tootsie - my hands are just a bad habit! I have nobody to shout at me!! I think the three pictures were taken on the same half of a 20 metre circle (camera takes a number of pictures within a certain amount of time) I'm not sure if my hands are always that low. I'm totally aware that it's my fault that the leaning had become so bad. He'd start leaning, I started consistantly leaning back to take the weight etc. Serious bad habits took hold.

I'll consciously think about my hands and get some more pictures or a vid to see if there's a difference. I've been trying to evaluate my position constantly in every schooling session recently but my brain feels like it's going to pop!! Eventually think I've got it right yet then realise something's still out of place :D

Thanks for your advice :)

[Tootsie4U]

Well, your position isnt that far off. Yeah, the *entire* leg needs to come back a bit, but for the most part, its almost in the ear-hip-heel line. He's also moving out quite nicely and doesnt appear to be overly OTF or struggling with his verticle. So, trust him, leave him be and just concentrate on your hands. Dont be surprised if his head does go up in the beginning. It isnt that he is being defiant, he'll just be a bit taken back by the different feeling. Resist the urge to fight it back down. Just leg him on and mind your hands.

[Mehitabel]

i'd agree with toots - bend your elbows and raise your hands - it's harder to be unyielding with your tumbs on top, wrists straight, and a bend in your elbow. it's easy to fix the hands with your arms straight and tense shoulders. also think about holding the reins nearer the tips of your fingers, with your hands half open, as opposed to closing your hands round the reins altogether, for a short-term thing to get you more aware of what is happening with them. again, then it's harder to fix your hands and you have to be more giving.

ride without gloves - if your hands get sore, his mouth will be sore. so again that's an incentive to give with your hands and encourage him to carry himself.

fixing position problems with no instructor to yell at you is harder, but doable. what i do is ewvery time i pass a letter, i think 'position' - with me, it's tipping forward - so to begin with, every time i passed a letter in the school i thought 'sit up'. when i was consistently going a few letters and position was stil OK, i just noted it at the 4 'main' letters - A, C, E and B. then just passing A etc.

for the longer term, you need him taking more weight behind and carrying himself, so work on transitions without using your reins, riding from your seat and having him really active and forward, but not rushed.

[madferret]

as my old instructor used to say! Jester used to lean massively, the way we corrected it was to get him more in front of the leg.
Carry a schooling whip with you and make sure he responds to your leg IMMEDIATELY. if he doesn't back it up with a gentle tap of the whip.
Its very difficult for a horse to be both in front of/on the leg and leaning on the bit.
Lots of transitions with him really listening to your legs, halt to trot, trot to walk etc should wake him up a bit as will lots of figure of eights.
Carrying your hands a little higher as the other's have said should help too.
You could try a waterford for a little while but I don't think these are recommended long term, the problem should really be solved by schooling and not by changing the bit.
HTH :)

[Bozzy]

Thanks both for your advice, it's a great help.

I've hopefully found myself an instructor and although it'll only be fortnightly lessons, it'll give me that regular reminder I need!

Edited: to say thanks madferret. Don't really want to have to change to a waterford as the problem has come from a schooling issue so the correct schooling will help. It's just mine's probably anything but correct :o

[Tootsie4U]

Just want to add onto madferret's advice.

This will also work, but you still have to make sure you've got the appropriate amount of contact on those reins or he'll develop another form of resistance - one thats actually harder to fix - curling or over bending.

No one ever said this was easy :)

If I were teaching you, I'd say just stick with the hands right now. All other parts of the picture aren't that bad including your postion and his way of going, so I'd fix it all in stages, rather than trying to fix it all at once.

[cvb]

something that might help you remember the hands thing...

get a friend and a pair of reins - get them to be "horse" and hold the reins the way you have in the picture (be honest !! i.e. have the hands low and the "line" broken).

Ask them how it feels. Now have "correct" hands so there is a straight line elbow to horse - what is the difference ?

Now swap places (so friend needs to have seen the piccie), and repeat so you can feel it too....

I am amazed how much you can feel the quality of rein contact doing above ;)

[Hesseybabe]

The general picture is very nice and i completely agree with everyone else.
Just wanted to add that your noseband, you need to have the cavesson tighter so that the nose band doesnt pull down at the front and block his airways. Sorry just a pet hate of mine.

[Bozzy]

Hesseybabe - just so you know, the cavesson's as tight as it'll go. It's just dropped with age. It's also very close to his sarcoid on his nose so I'm already on the hunt for a new bridle!

[Tootsie4U]

Do you need the flash? I know he's opening his mouth, but I think if you fix your hands, he'll fix that himself.

[Torny]

Hello Becca,

Looks like everyone has pretty much said the same thing. Which I mostly agree with.
I am having a similar problem with bending with my mare at times, shes been doping off and feels that she can only cope with half a circle in Bend then the rest has to be like a motorcycle. It's something that can be worked through!

I have noticed 'HANDS' being mentioned a lot. and how to get them softer etc.....
Well I have a word of advice, looking at the pictures I can see why you feel he is heavy in the hands. Your Horse is on the 'Forehand' causing a downwards riding effect. So he leans on you too !!!

You need to bring him up by getting that bottom and hind legs working! What I mean is, get him working from behind. It will lighten his 'Forehand' and give a more pleasurable, lighter ride !

Hope this has helped !

[Bozzy]

We'll give it a try without the flash tonight. I'll let you know how we get on!

Thanks

[laura jeanne]

cvb- just curious but what is the "friend" doing with the reins? How does that work?

[Tootsie4U]

Dont try too many new things at once. It'll throw him off and you'll feel frustrated.

Just focus on your hands tonight. Holding them, owning them, relaxing them with his movement... don't micromanage and fiddle him into any shape until you and he realize what you've got to do - until you get the feeling of where your hands need to be. Thumbs up and wither width apart. As mehitabel said, ride without gloves and semi-open fingers to help you keep a sensitive elastic feel on his mouth.

Try that until he's not fighting you as much. Then reward him by taking the flash off.

[Aaron]

I'm not too good with advice but if i was riding i'd get my leg on him get behind him push him more into you're contact and be a bit lighter in you're hands it'll all come together with time!
Lovely horse and don't put you're riding down too much!

[kedwards]

He's a great looking horse!

As other's have said, perhaps it's just catching a "moment in time," but it looks like you might be lowering your hands because you are focusing on brning his head in. Don't worry about that. Send him forward with your leg and allow your hand to accept and follow the contact (think about keeping your thumbs on top and imagining that, if your forefingers were straight, they'd be pointing right at his mouth).

[rache]

As you know I used to have an ex race horse becca. I had the same problems when schooling, leaning on bit in trot more than walk? This is lack of balance and ill think you'll find if you go into canter get of his back so you are in x country and ask for him to go into an outline he will feel very light, if he does do this then its his back muscles and inbalance. He may take a while to come into an outline in canter but it will come alot easier than the rest of the gaits.

I put my horse in a straight bar nathe bit as there is so much he can lean and so much i can pull, its move of a give take and also alot kinder in there mouth.

If this works becca let me know as i know of a few lunging exercises.

[Bozzy]

Cheers Rache!

Since this has come back up, I'll give an update! Those pics were taken over a month ago and since then I've started lessons with a wonderful instructor. We went back to basics working on long and low in all three gaits and Ed is so quick and willing to learn. Dressage tests are showing improvements too :D We're coming on slowly but i'm really chuffed with him and how much he tries. I was knackered after our lesson last night though, I really need to work on my fitness now!!! :rolleyes:

Will get OH to take some pics and hopefully they'll be an improvement!!

[Denbenj]

I used to have exactly the same problem when i was training..my instructor would scream at me! 10mins later they were back lol !!

a good tip she gave me was she made me hold a crop for a while across the horses withers which made me lift my hands..not good for when your schooling of course..but she would make me walk round a few laps in an attempt to get me to recongnise where my hands should be..

then when cooling of she would hand it back to finish on a good note lol !!

just a thought! I guess practise makes perfect!

[cvb]

cvb- just curious but what is the "friend" doing with the reins? How does that work?

Sorry - had missed this til just now.

If you just have reins, then the "rider" holds the reins as if riding, and the "horse" can either do the same (makes it easier to swap roles) or can hold a rein in each hand, with hands close enough to mimic the rein coming from the horse's mouth. Having both people holding "rider-style" works quite well.

I just had the guys at work (non-riders LOL) doing this with a bit and rein set. The "horse" holds the bit in both hands.

You don't want a "bolshy" horse. They should just respond to what the rider is doing. ideally you want some feedback - a running commentary. e.g. your right hand feesl stronger, now they are the same. That feels harsh, not its softer, .... and so on.

[augermoon]

Becca,

Can't remember seeing pics of you and Ed before. He's a lovely lad and you look great together.

[rache]

ditto on the fitness.

I am STILL aching from riding horses two times a row on three different horses havent been able to go down the gym all week :( not a happy rache.

XX

[laura jeanne]

thanks CVB!

[lynz+ollie]

hey
i have the same problem with my horse and my trainer is wkd she's really helped me, she says if he leans dont give him anything to lean on. so basicly as soo as he is too heavy on your hand instead on half haulting where you take and release, try releasing and taking the contact back. only slightly and very quickl;y but it really does work.
what happenes with me is he leans so i tense up and half halt and we end up just both really tense, and just get worse and worse.
i also have the same problems where you carry your hand slightly to low, this is great for getting the horse round but if you pick your hand up keping and soft contact it usually works for me.
but you both look great!

[meeru_Rider]

There are a few problems with your riding and you need to fix them .
Do not worry this is not an awfully big issue and with a little co operation from yourself you can fix it in a coupla days. :rolleyes: :) :p :cool: ;) :D
Now read closely:
1- you need to give your horse the feel of the rein.
You are giving your horse to much relaxation.keep your conduct with the rein even in the walk.noe if you rae doing trot once the horse is in trot you just dont leave him at that and lt your attention get distracted. No! keep pressing your leg only occasionaly lets say after a few mins, so that the horse knows that the rider is focussed towards me.As soon as your horse realises that oyu are on the road to success.
2- your leg position is not really the problem., but you do need to fix your leg position by making it a little backwards and you need to give the horse PROPER leg aids in order for him to understand. Your horse has bcome prone to incompetent leg aids and you need to fix that and make him morse sensitive to leg aids.
3- riding is more of a psycological thing , so you need to have faith in yourself.
4- raising your hands will help the situation.
Although you have found a trainer and you go to him /her every fortnight but you need to work A LOT on your horse
6- dont, sweat i have faced way morse worse times that this, and this leaning problem is nothing.
7- By leaning your horse asks for the rein so for a few dauys teighten the rein , and work on a tight rein with whip aids., after a few days when your horse adjusts to the tight rein loosen him out and you will fell great changes.
Good luck :cool:
I know you will do it.
No one is perfect. :) my horse's feet are as swift as rolling thunder
he carries me away from all fear
and when the world threatens to fall asunder
His mane is there to wipe away my tears

[chev]

7- By leaning your horse asks for the rein so for a few dauys teighten the rein , and work on a tight rein with whip aids., after a few days when your horse adjusts to the tight rein loosen him out and you will fell great changes.


:confused: So you believe that the horse is leaning because he wants more rein.... and your answer to that is to reel him in tighter still, and in doing so prevent him stretching his neck and working through his back properly, and stop him working down into the bridle by hauling on his mouth - and that's an answer? I'm sure he would be much better after a few days of that!

If you read Becca's update you'll see that the problems she was having are much improved by getting the horse to work long and low, down onto the bit - not by winching him in.

What you recommend there would cause stiffness, and hollowing, prevent the horse engaging his quarters and lifting his back and convince the horse you are not listening to him. That is, in my honest opinion, a dreadful piece of advice. Sorry.

The best way to get a horse to lighten the forehand is to get him working through properly from behind - not by restricting his head and neck. Becca has a great instructor and her work is paying dividends, by the sound of it.

As for 'whip aids' - yeesh. A whip is a back-up for leg aids - it should never be the primary aid at all. You cannot ride a horse forward on a whip - it is only by using you legs, back and seat that you can encourage the kind of work you want in a horse.

:stepsdownoffsoapbox:

[Tootsie4U]

Im glad Im not a horse in that barn! Yikes. :eek: