Loading Parelli Style - need help thinking it through...

[Tootsie4U]

The Parelli instructor I was working with has had a bad accident and hasn't been giving lessons for the last month. During this time off, I have been able to get Bonfire very proficient at all seven games.

So last night we tried applying some of the games to get him to load into our new trailer. Bonfire always loads, but he has quite a bit of anxiety about it and I'd really like him to learn to accept the trailer.

I did the squeeze game no problem. He just kinda gave the trailer door a hairy eyeball a few times. Awhile later, I tried sending him into the trailer while I stayed outside. First try, he walked straight up to it, put both front feet in, lifted one of his hind legs but then changed his mind. I thanked him, gave him a minute to 'wait' and then tried again. Same thing. Over and over and over again. He never put all four feet in with this process.

What would my next step be?

I tried to keep sending him and using the phases and that got me 3 feet in the trailer. But, his anxiety level almost went overboard.

What would be a good approach here. Bonfire is quite sensitive and gets very upset when I have to escalate to Phase 4 and I really dont want to increase his anxiety level about loading. So, using the Parelli way, how would I go about completing this process and getting him to put all 4 feet inside in a relaxed manner?

And FYI, he loaded 5 times later that night using the 'old way' where he follows me in - but I'd like to send him in.

[cvb]

Awhile later, I tried sending him into the trailer while I stayed outside. First try, he walked straight up to it, put both front feet in, lifted one of his hind legs but then changed his mind. I thanked him, gave him a minute to 'wait' and then tried again. Same thing. Over and over and over again. He never put all four feet in with this process.

Ok - not claiming to be an expert here as I still walk in myself and need to do some practice for my video :rolleyes:

But - I think what you have set up so far is that what you are asking for is 3 feet in, and then thats good cos you reward it.

So - what do you do next ? How do you ask more ? Right now he thinks he's doing exactly what you want and isn't getting any idea that you want more.

Now, if I go to the other games, if I ask for Porcupine yields, I start by asking one step, then 2, then more in a flow. But what i do to get more is ask again,

So - what happens if you do what you have asked so far and get 3 feet in. And then rather than bringing him out to start again, ask AGAIN for the final step.

Now he's already IN the trailer, so you can't use squeeze or circle. But you can use either steady or rhythmic pressure, depending on what he'll react to best.

i.e. this is NOT about going up the phases. It is about asking again at phase 1, but from where you are NOW, not from square 1.

BTW - I use this with my current loading style and we're fine. Its just the loading ahead of me we need to do...

[Crystal Fire]

Have you thought about tackling this in a slightly non-Parelli way? Do some work outside the trailer on changing your position as you drive him along. So work on driving him forwards in a straight line from the shoulder, from his middle, his hindquarters and even behind.
Go back to the trailer and load him as normal, but instead of going ahead walk beside his shoulder and go into the other side of the partition yourself. Just let the 12ft line slide through your fingers and rest it up on his back as he goes. Practise this a few times sending him a few more inches ahead of you each time, but being with him. You'll soon get to the point where you can walk beside his hindquarters and stay on the ramp as he goes in. That will get it fixed in his head that he can go in alone. From there it should be just a few more small steps to be able to stand on the ramp and squeeze him in, then off the ramp and do it.
That's how I did my level 1 loading long ago in ancient history anyway :)

[Kate F.]

If the aim is to get him loading himself - I'd come off the Parelli script at this point. The problem you are having is very common indeed - and there's a much easier way to get the same end result. Still natural - just not "Parelli-by-the-book."

Go in with the horse, as you have been doing and pet him with lots of stroking and being very quiet while he's in there. Don't do up the bum-bar. If he needs to go back, that's ok - just draw him back in again and make being inside the trailer a comfortable place to be. Then practise stepping him one step back, one step forward in the trailer. Then two steps back, two steps forward. Pet him each time he stands still when you ask - be it in the trailer or on the ramp. If he finds any part of this difficult, stick with it until he's happy with it. (This will help resolve his worries about the ramp and the feeling of confinement in the trailer. As he's getting anxious about going in on his own, he obviously has gremlins about some aspect of it - go with him and help him through it. Asking him to do it alone is too big a jump.)

Now unload and load again - this time, go in beside his head, not in front of him - so you are more driving him, but still going in with him. (Send him on one side of the partition, and you go in the other side.) Pet him - you can give him a carrot in there if you like - but just one for each load. The chewing can help them to relax.

Unload, walk a circle around the trailer and load again. This time, as you walk around - start sending him a bit in front of you and keep this distance as you approach the ramp. Guide his attention into the trailer - and in you go.

Each time drive him a little further in front of you until he is the whole lead rope ahead and goes in himself.

It used to be fairly standard NH practice to load from outside right from the start - but in the last 5 years or so more and more are switching to going in with the horse first and building up to sending the horse in alone. It may not look as flashy - but it's much easier for the horse and the person! The majority of riders are women, and women find it much easier to draw the horse to them than to send it away. For men it's the other way round - which is probably where the "load from the outside right from the start" idea came from. (The originators were men!). However, given that the overriding principle of good NH is to make life as easy as possible for the horse, and to eliminate fear from the training process - it's perfectly OK to go in with them and move back gradually.

I do lots of problem loaders - including quite a few who never had a problem loading until the owner tried to load from the outside, then the whole thing came unglued! I always go in with them at the beginning, but don't consider them trailer trained until the owner can send them in alone. The end product is the same - but this way of getting there is a little gentler and easier!

If you need pics. of how this approach works - have a look on my website (www.harmony-project.net) under Part 1 - the Trailering article. There are plenty of photos there.

Good luck!

Kate

[Kate F.]

Hi Crystal Fire!

We're having the same thoughts again! :p

Kate

[Tootsie4U]

Just for more detail:

Its a slant load stock trailer. For now, we're removing all partitions and using it as a big open space. Step up also - no ramp.

Comments:

cvb - I did exactly what you say to do except his anxiety level goes up very sharply if I keep persisting. He then begins to dance around. I did twirl the rope at his hind to send him in, but that didnt work at all. When I went to that Phase, he gave up and I spent the next few minutes trying to bring down his mental barrier. (He's obsessed with getting the right answer and if he thinks he's trying but Im increasing the pressure, he gets overloaded.)

Crystal & Kate... for what its worth, he was MUCH more inclined to follow me in - hardly took any persuasion at all. Incidently, I can load him that way by his shoulder and he's happy to just jump in. I haven't tried it farther back (toward his barrel) and you're right, maybe thats the next course of action. Good suggestion. :)

Thanks all, I'll give it a try again tomorrow!

[Harry Hobbes]

Will you take a peek at this and let me know what you would do?
I'd stop trying to take off and fly away until I could control the attitude of the airplane.

Or in the horse-training context: Rather than having the goal of loading the horse, I'd have a goal of controlling each foot in turn. I'd get real good at this; then he'd load up right nice (and do other things nicely).

It's real important that you understand that the training objective is to learn to control the feet - NOT get the horse loaded. Direct the feet and the horse will follow.

The horse goes where his feet are. So if you train the horse to put each foot where you want them (such as in the trailer) in turn, the horse will be where you want him (such as in the trailer).

Go back and review the trailer training tapes of "A" and Valentine from a year ago, and watch how I step Valentine up to the threshold of the trailer, and then stop her and move her back and forward one step at a time without allowing her into the trailer. I started with the Circle Game only to get her attention and compliance, then I stop doing Parelli, and work on the feet at the trailer threshold.

And when she gets upset, I stop trying to get her into the trailer and revert to directing one foot only to move where I want it. I'm building control of her feet on the ground with her feet on the ground and her nose in the trailer. Her job is to move her feet where and when I want, NOT to get into the trailer. If she goes too far, then I stop and correct her, because I don't want her jumping hither and yon; I want her putting her foot just so.

So I'd not be increasing the pressure on Mr. Bonfire when he balks; rather, I'd slow down, have a very pregnant pause :p , and then focus on placing one foot (and only one foot) in some place about six inches from where it is when he balks. I'd then work on placing that same foot another place about six inches away, have another pregnant pause, and then repeat the entire sequence until he settles down, loses his anxiety and just does it as a conditioned reaction. Then I'd go to work doing the same thing to another foot; then the third foot; then the fourth foot. All on the ground with his nose in the trailer.

To accomplish this, you will have to get very light with Mr. Bonfire, which is what he needs to learn to respond to. (All his life, people have been heavy-handed with him, so he's very reactionary.)

When I could place all four feet individually, I'd then ask him to place one foot up on the trailer platform; pause and pet (maybe have a Snickers Bar), and then have him put it back on the ground. Then I'd do this one-foot-in-the-trailer routine over and over again until he's absolutely calm with it. Then we'd place two feet in the trailer; and back out again. During the pauses, I'd be talking to him about anything interesting other than training horses. (Maybe I'd talk to him about Viet Nam, or similar scenic places. You ought to talk to him about your new addition to the family.)

At no time would I allow him to get into the trailer on his own volition. I wouldn't get emotional about it; I'd just tell him "No, step back out; I'll tell you when". And he will try to get in when he decides that getting in the trailer is more comfortable than moving one foot at a time for you. Buck Brannaman would say the he's tired of "chopping weeds", and wants to "go to town". (Reference Brannaman's The Faraway Horses, pp. 51-2.) But he doesn't get to go to town just yet; there are weeds to chop.

Once he's consistently loading (one foot at a time - NO jumping into the trailer is allowed), then you need to move him left/right/back/forward one step at a time while he's in the trailer. He must be perfectly at home moving his feet around while staying in the trailer. (The horses that get into wrecks in trailers or are anxious/fearful usually do so because they are not comfortable moving around in the trailer; they are afraid of the walls, movement, etc.)

Then I'd work on stepping him out of the trailer one foot at a time, until his feet are completely controllable backing out. I wouldn't allow him to back out on his own at all, until I could place one, two, three, or four feet exactly where I wanted them, and no where else. If he jumped out, we'd start over from the beginning.

So take a lawn chair, set it up and sit in it on the trailer threshold, and just work on getting Mr. Bonfire to move one foot at a time. When he figures out that the job is placing his feet where you want them, he'll lose his problem with the trailer.

And talk to him about your new family addition.

Best regards,
Harry

P.S. Thanks for the PM the other day; been a little busy bringing home the bacon to answer.

[Yann]

Maybe a daft question, but if he's quite happy to follow you in why try and drive him instead?

[michelle c]

i agree with harry, gradual you cant rush it!! your horse doesnt feel safe going in to the trailer on his own and you hav to convinse him its ok! when he is trying leave him alone, if he puts 2 feet on let him rest there and sniff the floor or walls if he chews or scrapes the floor this is testing to see if it is safe! when he brings his head up back him out and start again with phases, dont let him rest when he is not trying! the backing out helps him relax! does he seem to be tense when backing out, this could be something to practice instead of getting in! hope this helps :D

do you have the loading video? it helped me alot

[Tootsie4U]

Yann, loading by sending the horse in is much safer for the human. Im also doing it because it'll help Bonfire become more independant. He'll follow me anywhere (as you see here in this example) but he can be faced with the exact same things under saddle and if he doesnt have someone there on the ground beside him, he gets frightful.

Harry, is this something I should be prepared to take an entire day to do or should it be dividied into short sessions - say if I get one foot in and then the second and he's come through the anxiety, call it a day then?

We did the controlling each individual foot (left, right, back, front, up, down) with the Parelli instructor toward the begining. So we at least have that under our belt.

Also curious why you stop using Parelli for this task.

[cvb]

Tootsie

IMHO none of these suggestion are "non-parelli", they are just applying the principles in slightly different ways.

I witnessed an instructor try to help someone load a horse - and it did not, in my opinion, show a great deal of savvy. The trailer had a front ramp and they didn't even drop that to create more light etc :(

Also sounds like there might be some "non-loading" games you could play that would also help ? On the L1 video that comes with the pack, Pat starts to do things like driving the horse from behind, using the carrot stick to steer the offside etc.

I also aware of people in the UK who didn't own a trailer "faking" it in various ways so they could get the practice in without spending money on hiring a trailer everytime. e.g. could you "load" him a space such as his stable etc ?

Or set up two parallel poles at say 1m height in the school and "load" him into that. The next stage is to cover the poles so it looks like they have solid sides etc. Or set this up next to the school wall... and load him between a wall and a jump ? or..... your imagination is the only limit ;)

I did this raised pole thing in conjunction with my fake bridge ;)

[Tootsie4U]

Well, Parelli is structured in just about all his teachings "do this, followed by that". I do realize he'd agree to use your savvy rather than doing any step by step practice.

I dont think its the confined space that has him too worried. We experimented a great deal with our squeeze games and I sent him into some pretty claustrophic type places. I think its the wobbly ground and rattling walls that scare him.

Glad you said bridge, I just remembered the yard has a bridge the western people use for their trail classes. I wonder if I can drag that thing out and practice with that too. Heck why not.

[Crystal Fire]

Hi Yann. Well, for one thing, to pass Parelli level 1 you have to send the horse in ahead of you :) You can't pass by going in ahead. For another, I agree that it's safer not to go in ahead, particularly if you end up ducking under a breast bar in front of the horse. Personally I prefer to go in alongside the horse, other side of the partition, but sometimes you are loading two - so being able to stand outside can have it's advantages.
I think my suggestion is a bit non-Parelli in that Parelli loading is based on progressing with the Squeeze Game. That works normally in an arc. I am suggesting more work on driving the horse forward from all "zones", and thinking about straight lines first. As Harry says, it's all about controlling the feet. That is so fundamental a part of horsemanship to me that I forget to mention it. Look at everything we do with our horses - it's going to work well if we can control the feet. I have two things in my head when I take hold of a new horse "maintain your space and control the feet". From that everything else follows - to me anyway.
Another thought - Parelli loading is about making the trailer the most comfortable place to be. This causes horses trained in Parelli and similar styles to start to seek out trailers as places of comfort - sometimes when you don't want them to. It looks impressive though! I am suggesting that I would like the horse to be more trusting of me so that it will follow my direction, even in situations like trailer loading where it might not feel so confident. I don't really aim to have the horse hunt the trailer because I've made "the right thing comfortable and the wrong thing uncomfortable". IMHO that is what we do when we use the phases to make the horse focus on the inside of the trailer. That is what I learnt to do some years ago but these days I'm aiming more to make the horse more confident and brave and trusting of me so that they will feel equally comfortable outside or inside the trailer. (Ramble... does that sort of make sense?).
It seems to me that if Bonfire horse loads fine with his person going ahead then he doesn't have a huge issue with the trailer. It's just that he's learned that particular pattern and is comfortable with that, but now he's being asked to learn another.
Loads of Parelli people drop front ramps to help their horses to learn. Some even carefully film their videos so that you can't see the front ramp is open. I think they show more "Savvy" than anyone who is dogmatically insisting the horse loads into a small dark box :cool: But most PNH instructors will follow the letter of their guidance - which is that they should be able to load without lowering the front ramp.

[cvb]

But most PNH instructors will follow the letter of their guidance - which is that they should be able to load without lowering the front ramp.

Sure, but my problem with this situation is that she wasn't supposed to be teaching loading - she was supposed to be teaching the two people in the arena (one of whom was me !). But she was asked to help this person load their horse, so ended up with her focus on that, not on us. Now in that situation I think you need to use ALL your Savvy.

They were still trying to load this horse when we finished our session, loaded Fi, and drove home....

[Crystal Fire]

Hmmm... tend to agree with you there. You must have been a bit p'd off to say the least!

[cvb]

well, lets just say I'm finding lots of reasons not to attend the courses she's now doing.

It also brought home to me that learning to teach is a different process to learning to do, and you need Savvy in BOTH.

I've always had problems being taught by instructors I don't get on with, but it actually takes quite a lot for me not to get on with someone, so its quite a rare situation.

I don't teach right now, and am a bit wobbly about doing so because I've been out of it for so long. But not all the know-how is lost forever.... I think I'm at the irritating stage where I can still see other people's mistakes but not necessarily do it right myself ! :rolleyes:

[Crystal Fire]

I know that feeling! I used to teach (just calling it NH - not Parelli). I soon found that so many people only ask for help when they are at the stage where they are too scared to handle their own horse... it just didn't seem worth the risk. Insurance is very expensive too. (I think I've guessed the instructor, but I'm not going to mention any names!)
Much more fun to just have fun with your own horses.
I have a pony who challenges me every time he loads to find a different way to help him go in. Whatever worked last time won't work the next - he keeps me thinking I suppose.

[Harry Hobbes]

Harry, is this something I should be prepared to take an entire day to do or should it be dividied into short sessions - say if I get one foot in and then the second and he's come through the anxiety, call it a day then? I'd work on it over many sessions of an hour or so each. I wouldn't be too anxious to get to some trailer-related milestone (such as getting in the trailer). Rather, my milestones would be defined by how his feet were moving on cue, and whether he is calmer than when we began. We'd eventually get to the trailer, but only as he consistently demonstrated calm response with his feet.

So if you want to take an entire day with break periods, you could do that; or do it for short periods of time over many days. It's your choice. You can work on this drill just about anywhere and for any amount of time.

What matters is that he learns to put his feet where you direct without all of the anxiety. (Think about how this would've helped your farrier.) Whether you do this in a trailer or a stall or an alley way, or in one session or twenty, just doesn't matter if you are training the feet.

Also, as he learns to consistently put his feet where you direct, then you will find that you do not have to stand in one particular place, such as at his head. You could stand just about anywhere (such as outside the trailer) and direct his feet into the trailer.

If you study some of the natural horsemen, you will find that to load a horse, they train it to travel straight at their direction; which is another way of saying they are controlling the feet. They teach the horse to move its feet in a particular direction, line the horse up, and send it on its way; and voila, it goes into the trailer. (Because it has been trained to move straight in a particular direction; and the open trailer just happens to be in the way.)

Some teach one step at a time, and some teach more than one step at a time. But with Mr. Bonfire, I'd be slow and methodical, working on one step at a time.

Best regards,
Harry

[cvb]

I know that feeling! I used to teach (just calling it NH - not Parelli). I soon found that so many people only ask for help when they are at the stage where they are too scared to handle their own horse... it just didn't seem worth the risk. Insurance is very expensive too. (I think I've guessed the instructor, but I'm not going to mention any names!)
Much more fun to just have fun with your own horses.
I have a pony who challenges me every time he loads to find a different way to help him go in. Whatever worked last time won't work the next - he keeps me thinking I suppose.

Yep - have been trying to be subtle as not everyone will see it the way I do, and some people work with her very happily. Plus the owner and horse concerned have since passed their L1 so obviously resolved this at some stage.

So it was a happy ending for them :D

[Tootsie4U]

If you study some of the natural horsemen, you will find that to load a horse, they train it to travel straight at their direction; which is another way of saying they are controlling the feet. They teach the horse to move its feet in a particular direction, line the horse up, and send it on its way; and voila, it goes into the trailer.

That sounds like the driving game. Or, a combination of the driving game and squeeze game, which is what I was doing that day. (I drove him to the trailer and then sent him beyond my body using the 'lead and lift' of Parelli's circle game).

Is the driving game the same type of 'controlling the feet' you're talking about? Or is it more like Lyon's WESN?

Just need to clarify to get it straight in my head. I have yet to review your tape and to be honest, I barely remember that part from the first time I watched it over a year ago.

Thanks for taking the time to help me through this one.

[Harry Hobbes]

Is the driving game the same type of 'controlling the feet' you're talking about? Or is it more like Lyon's WESN? This is more like the Porcupine Game (steady pressure) to get a step-over, rather than the Driving Game (which is rythymic pressure). One step forwar, one step back; then one to the left, followed by one to the right.

The one-step-at-a-time is you just using enough pressure to get him to move one foot to a spot about six inches away. Then you let him settle and pet him for about fifteen seconds. If he moves too far or takes more than one step, he is reacting too much. So lower your pressure until he moves one foot where you want it and then stops moving.

Anyone watching you would see Mr. Bonfire calmly step one foot over and then wait. Then step the foot over again and wait. There should be 10-15 seconds of wait before you ask for the foot again. (As you and he get better at this, the wait time will decrease.) If he gets reactive, then there's too much pressure, so slow down and ease up.

But whether you are playing the Driving Game, WESN, or the Porcupine Game, you are practicing directing the horse's feet.

Best regards,
Harry

[cvb]

Tootsie

I had a long rein lesson on Saturday. Which went very well :D

Then last night I had a few mins time to play, so thought I'd have a go at Driving Game but with me back behind her. She was definately a bit confused at me being back there, but quickly settled. She was also a bit concerned at first when I directed her "other" side with the carrot stick, but again accepted it quite quickly. (I was going to progress to long reining but didn't have enough time).

One of the reasons for having a go at this was above conversation - and the fact i still need to video my trailer loading... ok - I need to DO and video my trailer loading ;)

So I thought some "prior and proper preparation" was called for ;)