Which training aid to use...

[caggie]

i have just recently got my 6yo 2accept the bit (after a good fight). whilst in walk he will hold his head carriage is nearly perfect however, once i ask him 4 trot, his head immediatly goes up into the air and he continues to trot with his nose stuck out and in the air! iv tried everything, from just using my voice, 2 makin myself heavier in the saddle as i thought that he was a horse who doesnt repsond to the bit very well when asking 4 downward transitions and it takes ages 4 him to make the transition.

iv had his teeth checked and am yet to hav his back checked by a chiropractor. i am now considering using a training aid whilst riding. im already using the pessoa which i have found to be very effective but once i ride him, hes a different story. :(

can anyone tell me what the harbridge is like and exactly how it works and how the rider should ride whilst using it??

any help would be a great help!!!

thanks

C

[Tootsie4U]

i have just recently got my 6yo 2accept the bit (after a good fight).

There's your biggest problem :)

If you force his head down, he can't work in an outline. The head set is the LAST thing to come, not anywhere near the first. By forcing him into a shape, he'll end up resentful, in pain and he could develop incorrect muscling.

There's plenty of threads here that explain what a *real* outline is and how to go about getting one. Grab some tea and have a nice read :)

G'luck with him.

[chev]

Making yourself heavier in the saddle will actually encourage him to hollow his back and poke his nose - he'll brace himself against you and stiffen, instead of lifting his back and rounding.

When you say you had a fight to get him to accept the bit what do you mean?

Is he actually engaging his quarters and rounding his back properly or is he just tucking his nose in?

When working towards an outline, it's important to remeber that in order to get an 'outline' we need to get the horse working from behind. Lots of people concentrate on the horse's head carriage - but a horse can tuck his head in prettily without going in an outline at all.

True self carriage, which is what gives you a horse working on the bit, comes from behind. When the horse is using his hindquarters to ppower himself along, he lifts and rounds his back, and his head will naturally start to drop down onto the bit.

It this isn't happening you need to work out why. First is to make sure he likes the bit, that it suits him and he's happy when you take up a contact. Check his teeth (which you've done) and his neck, back and pelvis for any stiffness or pain (which you're going to do). How long has he been working under saddle? It takes time for a horse to learn to engage himself properly. Does he understand what you want him to do? Is his conformation working against him? Some horses find it much harder to work in an outline because of their conformation.

What kind of work are you doing? To start a horse engaging, I'd be using groundpoles, lots of transitions, half halts, and if you have hills around you, use them too.

[caggie]

ok..so if i shouldnt start with the head..then where do i start??? im so confused and fed up :(

[captainkodak]

do you have an instructor that you could ask for help?

whereabouts in the country are you? there are people on here from all over and they might know just the person!

lou

[caggie]

iv read that the harbridge encourages the horse to work from behind...is it an efficient aid?

iv actually stopped riding harry for fear that i may be ruining him by my own riding skills, until i begin having proper lessons on how to ride him as he quite a challenging horse. so at the minute im just lunging him on the pessoa, trying 2 gain correct musculature and balance etc.

i would like to work him over ground poles but whilst jumping he tends to rush into jumps, flattening his whole body. he also tends to bend his neck to one side and sticks his head up into the air giving me no control over him at all.

[caggie]

i from Northern Ireland!! Co. Fermanagh to be exact...

how do i ask the horse to use his hindquarters properly? and how will i kno when he is??

[chev]

I think having lessons with him might be the best idea.

In the meantime, try and forget about where he's putting his head and concentrate on getting him to use his bum properly. Try and think of it as using your leg to push him on, but just stopping him rushing away with your hands. Use your leg to encourage him to push on from behind, and use your hands to stop him speeding up. If you drive - it's a bit like holding a car with a manual gearbox on the clutch... you need to get the energy working behind the saddle without allowing him to just run off.

The groundpoles are a great way to do this. Lay them out on the ground, spaced so that they're about 1 stride apart. Walk him over them - in-hand, if it halps to start with. This helps him bring his hind legs underneath him, as he steps over the poles. In a way you're teaching him where to put his feet.

Another thing you can try is making mazes out of poles. Lay them on the ground, and get him to walk through them. Use right angles, stops, even back him up a few paces now and then. All this will help him concentrate on his feet, and think a bit more, and listen to you.

I'd also get the chiro out as soon as you can - if he bends consistently to one side and throws his head up, there is a chance something is hurting somewhere. If that's the case, he might find it uncomfortable to try and engage - so you'd be as well just to have him looked at.

Lessons would probably do the most good though - partly because it's alot easier to explain engagement when you're stood with someone, rather than over the net! - but also because you sound like your confidence could do with a boost. It's much easier to see improvements from the ground,a nd much easier to work out solutions. Are there any instructors who could come and work with you both in your area?

[chev]

Just to add - when a horse starts to use his quarters you can actually feel the difference. He'll become lighter in your hands (you won't feel so much weight on the reins) and transitions will feel much easier. It's a lighter feeling all round - like sitting on a ball of energy, instead of trying to do all the work yourself. He'll feel 'shorter' - a horse that's not using his back properly often feels like he's stretched out in front and behind you. A horse that's got his hind limbs under him will feel shorter and taller.

I'm not explaining this very well am I...

[chev]

And another thought... in order to get him to use his bum, he needs to understadn that he must move forwards away from your leg. If he's ignoring that, he might not really understand what's being asked.

In that case, try some exercises on the ground with him. Use the flat of your hand to move him back, and sideways, and onwards away from you. Use voice commands to make it easier for him. Then when you move back into the saddle, use your legs and the same command. You can teach a horse to walk on when you press a hand into his side. That sometimes helps make the transition to ridden work a bit easier for him to understand.

Hope some of all this was useful anyway. :)

[cvb]

ok..so if i shouldnt start with the head..then where do i start??? im so confused and fed up :(

Caggie

I think we have some confusion here about terms. "accepting the bit" could mean exactly that - that the horse accepts and listens to the bit - without saying anything else about the way he is going. (Tho in general, a horse which truely accepts the bit will tend to go nicely).

Then we have the mis-named "on the bit" which is mostly used to describe when the horse is working properly throughout his WHOLE body and hence the head, neck, bit are only a minor part of it.

And then we also have "working in an outline"... which is a bit better but doesn't really specify WHAT outline the horse is working in :rolleyes:

So - overall principle for a rider is that they want their horse to move and work in the most harmonious way with the rider. This requires them to be straight, active, foward, accepting the rider's aids, balanced, and lots of other nice sounding words ;)

Thing is that you need to work on the WHOLE horse to achieve this - you can't just do it piece by piece. If you work on the head set without working on engagement, straightness, activity - you'll probably have a hollow crooked horse, and so on.

So THATS why its not just about the head.

This example has been used before in other threads but its a geat one so I'll reuse it here. Go onto all fours yourself - now without changing anything else, put your head down as if you are "in an outline". You'll find that in order to move, you also need to lift your back, and so on. if you hollow your back, your back legs will be difficult to bring under you. Well this is exactly the same for the horse. All of him needs to work together in harmony....

[helenc]

I'm not explaining this very well am I...

Actually i think you're doing pretty well Chev!

I'm with the others Caggie - I really think you should get some lessons & steer clear from training aids for the time being. None of them are miracle workers - you may see a difference from the ground but then once you get back on he will be carrying on the same as he is now.

Find someone who you can get on with & who you think you will be able to easily ask questions to.

How often are you lunging him at the moment? I wouldn't lunge more than once or twice a week, especially if using a training aid, your horse could end up in some pain from stressed muscles. If you don't want to school then just hack out for a couple of weeks until you find an instructor - have some fun & don't worry about the horses carriage for now!

[maren]

hi caggie
i'm going to agree with all the previous posts on this one...but don't give up or get frustrated!! :) i know how hard it can be..i'm bringing along a 5 year old right now, and some days you just want to pull your hair out!! i wouldn't worry too much about lungeing your boy like crazy...he's going to get fed up with it sooner or later, and you won't want to deal with that! :rolleyes: it's also pretty tough on their legs to be lunged day in and day out...i usually have one or two sessions a week with my guy (unless he's out of his mind on a windy day and there's no question of riding!) once you've cleared the question of back discomfort/pain i think you need to just take a step back and work on the basics. i spent almost 2 weeks just working on walking...walking over poles, walking in figure-eights, sepentines, imaginary jump courses (with poles instead of jumps), spirals (but not too small as he's still green), trot pole grids, etc. the whole time focusing on consistancy of pace and a nice, swingy forward walk using little half halts to check him when he got too fast, and releasing my seat and urging him on if he got too slow. you have to let your horse tell you how much contact he wants on the reins...don't let them hang loopy and surprise him every time you want to turn or stop, but don't pull them so tight his head pops up in the air. he'll let you know what makes him happy, but be flexible...i usually start with a shorter rein and end on a longer one as my boy stretches forward more to the bit. never pull, twist, or see-saw the reins to make him assume a head-set...he'll become resentful and start evading. when you need to give him a good squeeze on the reins to slow down release it immediately upon his response...he should never feel the need to escape from contact with your hand. when you think he's ready, start working the same patterns in the trot, focusing on proper bending and straightness...the key to proper collection and "working on the bit" is straightness...i can't emphasize that enough! :D as you start working him over trot poles you should feel his back round up and almost rise up to meet you in the posting trot...the same sensation chev was describing as sitting on a ball of energy...it's really hard to describe, but you'll know it when you feel it...that's the feeling of him engaging with his hind end and really stepping underneath himself...this is the beginning of working "on the bit". (i really hate that term, because you can ride a horse in a halter and still have them "on the bit"..total misnomer! :rolleyes: ) once your horse starts to work properly, his head will come down and he'll start to round up nicely by himself...but don't expect too much!! he's still developing these muscles, and at first he'll only be able to work a few strides at a time...don't clutch at his mouth and try to keep him there! just tell him what a good boy he is and keep nice, even, sympathetic contact with his mouth...you want to make it pleasant for him.
yikes! this post got a lot longer than i intended! hmmm...probably should return to work...
don't get discouraged...it just takes tons of patience! good luck with everything!

[Tootsie4U]

To train a horse to be able to give you an outline (the horse HAS to have the correct muscling and balance to do this - and the rider HAS to have correct muscling and balance to do this!!!) you need to work back to front.

On average, too much attention is given to the front half of the horse. A pretty tucked in head on the verticle is much easier to see than correctly working hindquarters, so obviously undo importance is paid to the head set.

The biggest and most important part of an outline is impulsion. Without it, an outline is fake and forced. The horse must be working well in its hocks and flanks to carry the weight back there. The hindquarters are the part of the horse built for power and speed, not the front half.

So, to start training for an outline, you need to encourage the horse to work well from behind. Plenty forward but not out of control. From the ground, you should see a definate increase in push and hock angle. Some people say to look for the horse tracking up (which is the hind foot print matching or advancing beyond the front hoof print) but this can be greatly affected by anatomy.

If the horse is working well in the hind end, the forequarters will AUTOMATICALLY become light. Ridden and from the ground, you will see an obvious dramatic swing in the shoulders. If you are riding, you will feel almost 'left behind' as the horse moves underneath you. This is what is meant by 'being in front of the leg' because it truly feels like you've got the entire horse out in front and like youre literally sitting on the haunches.

Now, and only now, once the horse is moving out well enough, balanced and relaxed, can you begin to *contain* all that energy with the reins. Reins should NEVER be used to manipulate a horse into any position and that includes through turns. The purpose of your reins is only to *allow* or *restrict* forward movement (or to *suggest* advanced lateral movements).

Think toothpaste tube. Your horse is the toothpaste tube. If I eagerly push on the bottom of the toothpaste tube (impulsion) and the cap is not on the other end of the tube, where does the toothpaste go? Out the front and makes a complete mess (on the forehand). If I eagerly push on the bottom and twist the cap (reins) on, what happens to the toothpaste? Its *Contained* within the tube. Because you're pushing, but containing, you have all the power of impulsion underneath you, but you're containing it into an 'outline'.

So you see, you cannot have a true outline without impulsion. It is physically impossible for a horse to be with impulsion and not carrying himself. At that point, you tweak your reins to keep the horse on the verticle (they will almost come to the verticle on their own anyway at this point!) and to contain the energy. Reins do very little for making an outline, but are very important to contain an outline.

And guess what, you dont NEED any training aid for this other than a saddle, bridle, snaffle bit, and perhaps a riding whip. Later, when you want to greatly refine movements, then aids such as spurs or other bits can be used.

Does that clear it up - maybe not :D Like I said, there are tons of pages here on this website to describe it further. Have a peek around :)

[UnsettledDust]

To me the only GOOD use for a harbridge (and its the only good thing about draw reins too) is for hacking a strong horse who is liable to tank off!

[helenc]

To me the only GOOD use for a harbridge (and its the only good thing about draw reins too) is for hacking a strong horse who is liable to tank off!

You're joking right?

If you hack a strong horse in a harbridge or draw reins then they will only learn to set themselves against you even more & although you might be able to hold them whilst you have the gadgets on, the next time you hack out without one you could be in big trouble! It could also make matters worse for future schooling sessions!

[UnsettledDust]

Sorry, but this is just my opinion!

[caggie]

wow..u all seem 2 b very experienced riders!! can i ask u all what u do??

thanks 4 all that help from u guys...the clear opinion here is that i shudnt bother using a training aid at all...so i guess i wont!! im just gonna hav 2 work a bit more on my patience and leg work lol...i may even use a different arena cuz i think that my horse doesnt concentrate as much when he knows its feeding time and when he sees other horses coming in and out of the yard!

in saying all this..i hav heard good feedback from using training aids like the harbridge...so i think il try my best without one and if i do achieve impulsion from behind but he continues to stargaze when i ask him 2 slow...should i perhaps giv the harbridge a try?

C

[eventerbabe]

To me the only GOOD use for a harbridge (and its the only good thing about draw reins too) is for hacking a strong horse who is liable to tank off!

i think the best place for a training aid is round the owners neck personally. i don't like them and don't use them.

can't really add to chevs excellent comments :) you need to be doing lots of transitions, half halts, ground poles and most importantly get some lessons booked. your horse is only young and may still be a bit unbalanced and green. forcing his head down will do him no favours. also, at 6 i wouldn't expect him to have a great concentration span. my boy could concentrate for no more than 15 minutes when he was at that age. the secret is short bursts of quality work, not 2 hours of poor work. i don't think strapping him in a training aid will do his education any favours.

[cvb]

caggie

I guess if you added up the years of experience on this board, even tho its for "new riders" - you'd come to quite a big number ;)

in terms of "if he still star gazes... should I..."

we've had this discussion on a few threads - overall you need to remember that teaching the horse a new way of going is a big deal cos it'll mess up their balance and co-ordination and they have to learn it over. Doing this with a rider on makes it even harder.

Personally, where I have done remedial training, I have used the minimum I can get away with in terms of aids, and done it from the ground so that the horse can learn a new way by themselves first.

Most "gadgets" can be disastrous if used wrongly. The kind if thing I go for is something that will reward the horse for doing the right thing automatically i.e. it does not depend on me to operate it. Thats if I use anything at all - I just sold my chambon !

[SarahC]

I don't mean to start any kind of debate with my post...I'm am genuinely interested in this...I know nothing of these aids so am purely interested in how the harbridge is portrayed in the mail order cataglogues...

In Rideaway, the Harbridge write up says:-

"Encourages horses of any standard to work immediately along correct, classical lines. Quickly develops correct musculature. Encourages the horse to step up and under. Affords greater softness over the back".

If the harbridge doesn't do this, aren't they mis-representing it?

I'm only asking as I'm interested...I personally don't use any training aids and don't think I ever would...but I just wondered..reading everyones replies, the write up suggests that it does exactly what people are saying should be done to encourage an outline??

Once again...this is not my opinion...nor am I trying to disagree with what everyone has said..I'm just interested in how Rideaway could describe the harbridge this way...


S

[cvb]

er...yes... it also says Invaluable for all disciplines and abilities, since it imitates the perfect pair of hands.

Now - I haven't seen many pairs of hands that come from middle of girth up to mouth :rolleyes: :eek:

The problem with anything that PUTS a horse into an outline rather than ALLOWING them (as a rider might), is that if there is a genuine reason why they are not going in that outline, forcing them to do so can cause a LOT of damage to both horse and rider :eek:

There are tales of people tying a horse's head down with whatever gadget, at which point horse rears, goes over, and it turns out they had problems with their back and were in major pain :mad:

One thing that always comes up on discussion like this is to eliminate physical problems first.

[Tootsie4U]

$$$ talks. If I came up with a miracle vitamin that automatically made a horses joints expand so his lengthenings would double what they normally are, I bet people would buy it.

There are also people out there who are in a hurry and these 'aids' help speed up processes, at first glance. Rather than showing the horse how to, you can make him and hope he learns to hold that shape on his own. Good luck to them when the try to take the gadgets off though! :D

[welshcoblady1]

Hello, Depending on the breed of your young horse ,he could still growing and maturing into his frame.
You could try going back to basics with changes of transitions on large working areas, encourage him to to lower his neck and head and try to stay in a rythm, for short periods ,rising trot down the long side with a contact ,if he stays in rythm and is going forward let him seek the contact rather than controlling the speed with your hands ,keep( your ) rising trot in a slower rythm
this will keep to slow him down rather than pulling back with your contact.
do not sit deep into his back at this time,as this can have the effect of going against his movement keep your seat light and supple in trot and your upper body sofly in line, as leaning for ward or back ward will unbalance you then to unbalance him.
Whilst schooling rider error can unsettle a young horse,such as a hard driving seat,clamped on leg,restricted hands,working in to small a circles and sharp bends ,leaning forward or leaning back ,
The foundation of self carriage is to let the horse find his balance under the rider with time and patience the rider offers support to the horse for future self carriage and collection ,to many riders worry about a young horses head carriage to early in schooling ,once he can carry him self in balance and through out his hocks,and loins ,and his back, lifting his abdomin to round his back under his rider he will then become lighter in front and hold a outline ,this takes time to learn and perform and is hard work for any horse .
comformation varies very much from one horse to another and can effect how the horse carries him self and how much he can collect or even bend .
Have some fun with your horse to, hill work helps to strengthen muscles and
can help a horse to use himself .
The harbridge has its place as most schooling aids ,providing they are adjusted correctly with in the frame and muscle capacity of the horse ,and a kind user who is not hoping to make a fast end to a problem.
keep schooling simple and short,allways reward by ending the session if the horse has tried or has shown even a little improvement.
Schooling a young horse is like us trying to learn a different language little and often is kinder, and lets the horse chew over and not worry about his next session,
Some times riders patience wears thin when horse can not do what they want ,patience will give you the reward that you wish, and more, and the feeling of acheivement is better than never acheiving ,enjoy your young horse schooling is important but so is letting your horse chill out and take in the world around him ,if you both need advice have the help of a freind or pro go back to basics and make a fresh start if need .best wishes to you .

[UnsettledDust]

You're joking right?

If you hack a strong horse in a harbridge or draw reins then they will only learn to set themselves against you even more & although you might be able to hold them whilst you have the gadgets on, the next time you hack out without one you could be in big trouble! It could also make matters worse for future schooling sessions!

Can I just add here that hacking my horse in a harbridge neither taught my horse to set himself against me and I do and can still hack him out without one! I have back problems and if it makes life easier for me on bad days then I will continue to use it when I am doing fast work in company! And it certainly does not effect our schooling sessions!

[Bay Mare]

Gadgets/training aids can be 'helpful' in the RIGHT hands. The right hands being someone with a LOT of experience who can work a horse without said gadgets. My dressage trainer occasionally uses them in very specific situations but doesn't use them to bring a horse into an outline and certainly not as a means of control.

In my opinion if I am unable for any reason to control my horse without a gadget then I shouldn't be riding my horse on that day or I should be working on schooling in a safe, confined area. If you are using a gadget to stop a horse 'tanking off' with you then you should be working on the horse not tanking off with you.

i think the best place for a training aid is round the owners neck personally. i don't like them and don't use them.

and the best place for draw reins is cut up into pieces in the bin! If you are using them for control out hacking then you are using them wrongly, IF you use draw reins and are using them CORRECTLY then you should be riding off the snaffle rein with the occasional correction on the draw rein. As I've said before, though, I firmly believe that *us* mere mortals shouldn't be allowed within a hundred miles of draw reins :eek:

With regards to a 6 year old you should, as others have said, be looking at getting the back end working correctly. Get them working from behind and the head carriage will develop naturally with time. In dressage tests they aren't looking for the 'perfect' head carriage at the lower levels anyway, the way of going is more important and the 'outline' is progressive as you work your way up. My friend bought a 5 yo IDx who 'looked' beautiful, beautifully arched neck, excellent 'outline' but that's all it was, an outline. He had been gadgeted up to the eyeballs and was fixed into shape. She had to retrain him to stretch out his neck and work from behind. It took ages and lots of trauma to 'unfix' his neck and get him relaxed and working nicely.

Sorry, but I agree with the others, lessons with an experienced, sympathetic instructor are worth a thousand training aids :)

[UnsettledDust]

:mad: I'm sorry but you don't know me so I don't think you have any right to criticise my methods of controlling my horse out hacking! OR tell me not to hack him out because he occasionally tanks off ... I am perfectly aware of how to use the training aids that i use and have no intention of stopping using them or stopping hacking my horse out ...

[helenc]

:mad: I'm sorry but you don't know me so I don't think you have any right to criticise my methods of controlling my horse out hacking! OR tell me not to hack him out because he occasionally tanks off ... I am perfectly aware of how to use the training aids that i use and have no intention of stopping using them or stopping hacking my horse out ...

For goodness sake!

I think the majority of posts on this thread were aimed at the original poster - not you!

[DavidH]

Now this might shock a few that know me and my general feelings about gadgets but I have on occasions used draw reins to hack out a horse for that little extra control.
It does help in certain circumstances, ie where a horse will throw its head extremely high before tanking off. Using a draw rein means i can instantly correct this but still ride 99% of the time on the snaffle rein.
Use a martingale I hear you cry. Nope! Can't stand the interference one gives between my hand and the horses mouth.
All that said, i never, ever, ever use them to "encourage" an outline. This comes from the gadgets I was born with, legs, bum and hands ;)

[cvb]

Can I just add here that hacking my horse in a harbridge neither taught my horse to set himself against me and I do and can still hack him out without one! I have back problems and if it makes life easier for me on bad days then I will continue to use it when I am doing fast work in company! And it certainly does not effect our schooling sessions!

UnsettledDust - IMHO gadgets don't necessary "create" bad riding, but they don't necessarily help horse and rider improve, and can (note "can" not "will") create a dependence on the gadget.

If a rider works their hrose soft, straight, active, from behind etc - then all the benefits of working that way acrue. But my theory is that if the rider can ride the horse in this way, what is the gadget adding ???

i.e. the benefits they are getting could also be got without the gadget.

I think there are specific situations where a gadget can help - IF you use the right gadget in the right situation, in an informed way.

A lot of the problems seem to happen when some unsuspecting person who hasn't had the time to learn about gadgets get told to use them, and doesn't get the help they need to use them right. It also becomes a vicious circle as these people then go on to recommend them to other folk and so on :(

I've found that the more I know, the less gadgets I want (and need) to use. But I will still use a bungee rein for some (not all) of my lunging. Just in the same way other folk might lunge in side reins. Can't think of any other gadget I use, unless you count rope halter, line and carrot stick ??

[UnsettledDust]

I perfectly aware of how to use the above effectively! And I do understand everyones points here ... what I don't get is where people can get off having a go at someone they dont know ??? I wouldn't use any training aid that I wasn't trained/shown how to use ... I use what works for me and my horse and I will continue to! I am sorry if I have upset anyone over this I just find it weird that I don't appear to be allowed an opinion!

[Dales_Lover]

If you are using a gadget to stop a horse 'tanking off' with you then you should be working on the horse not tanking off with you.

Gadgets or no gadgets - a horse WILL bolt/tank off with you if they want to - us feeble humans aren't going to stop them! BUT if the rider knows some days they're horse will be a bit un-stoppable - and come on all horses have these days, they are living animals - then why not use a 'gadget' on the horse if it is going to help the rider and help stop the horse? We wouldn't want an accident now would we!!

Gadgets DO work on the horse to not 'tank' off with you - but hey, they are horses remember!!!

[Dales_Lover]

Back to the original question - teeth, back and tack checked. Then a course of lessons.

[chev]

I perfectly aware of how to use the above effectively! And I do understand everyones points here ... what I don't get is where people can get off having a go at someone they dont know ??? I wouldn't use any training aid that I wasn't trained/shown how to use ... I use what works for me and my horse and I will continue to! I am sorry if I have upset anyone over this I just find it weird that I don't appear to be allowed an opinion!

No-one is having a go at you, no-one said you are not entitled to your opinion, no-one was saying you shouldn't be using whatever gadgets you use.

The responses were to the original poster - for whom gadgets really are unlikely to be the answer.

Caggie asked how best to get her horse working in an outline. Gadets do not, generally, do much for teaching a horse engagement, so the answer is not usually in a case like this to use them.

This is not a thread about whether gadgets are intrinsically good or not - it is about the best way for one person to help her horse work more effectively. I think it would be best to remember that and keep this civil.

[UnsettledDust]

Like I said before I am sorry!!! BUT the original poster did not mention hacking in the item it was me and I appear to be getting told off for doing this! Once more I apologies!

[Janette]

I have a harbridge, and do on occasion use it, to remind Star where I want her head, when she starts to work correctly, stepping through etc, then I take it off. This usually takes about 20 minutess. It also helps me to learn the 'feel' I am looking for, so that I recognise when she is working more correctly.

[cvb]

I perfectly aware of how to use the above effectively! And I do understand everyones points here ... what I don't get is where people can get off having a go at someone they dont know ??? I wouldn't use any training aid that I wasn't trained/shown how to use ... I use what works for me and my horse and I will continue to! I am sorry if I have upset anyone over this I just find it weird that I don't appear to be allowed an opinion!

You may know how to use it, but not everyone does - and yet they will still end up riding with it :(

The "passion" you get in these discussions is genuine concern for both horse and rider. Don't really see that as a problem ???

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that does not mean that the opinion won't get challenged - personally I think this is much healthier as it means the people who read the threads don't just get opposing view points with no explanation or reasoning. They are then more informed when they decide what their OWN opinion is. IMHO.

[Yann]

I'm aware of one or two people whose opinion I respect that have got good results using a Pessoa as it does encourage the horse to work from behind and build muscle in the right places without undue restriction.

If your horse is fine with you on the ground but not on board then that's where the problem is - it's quite possibly a saddle fit issue or sore back.

[caggie]

hey everyone!

thanks again for all of your opinions...im still finding it hard 2 decide on what to do! just a little update..i brought my horse to the beach yesterday an he continued to do what he does in the arena...i couldnt hav a nice relaxed canter or gallop down the beach without him leaning on the bit and just pulling me down th beach...i found it impossible to slow him down and found that the more i hold him back..the more he pulled me along...i eventually got him stopped with his head stick a mil into he air and his jaw crossed..even though hes wearing a grackle noseband! :confused: i tried using my voice to ask him 2 stop but he continued galloping on!

im so lost as to what to do...will working on transitions help both him and I?

C

[cvb]

Caggie

Yes - transitions, and half-halts, will help you a lot.

My mare has had a bit of a sore back recently, so I've been keeping everything low key. But I can tell how she is, and how well I am riding, simply from our halt-walk and walk-trot (and down again) transitions. If I can't get those transitions soft, round accepting - what hope of anything else ?!

She is quite "educated", so we can do things like shoulder-fore to help with these basic transitions. But even just simple work helps a lot.

The other "foundation" thing to work on is keeping the soft, accepting way of going through changes of direction. So to stop things getting too boring you can work on both transitions and changes of direction (circles, serpentines, etc etc).