argh tongue over bit

[notpoodle]

:( angel seems to have acquired a new trick ... she has been a bit 'pulley' lately (spring i guess ...), anyway. didnt think much of it to start with and just persevered practicing the old transitions and things with her.

but when you go from walk to halt (which we HAD been able to do rather nicely ...), she started to stick her head up again, along with cranking her mouth open and generally evading the contact.

today i noticed that she was also busy sticking her tongue out sideways, so i presume she has taken it *over* the bit somehow. happened about 3 times today, at transitions and at a 'scary object' incident where she trried to turn round but i wouldnt let her because that tractor is ALWAYS there, so theres no need to be panicky about it.

general info:

she had her teeth done just before christmas by mark slingsby, a fully qualified dentist who also lectures at that equine dentist 'school' in america. hence i think its unlikely he overlooked something.

she is ridden in a sweet iron french link (not particularly thick either) with no flash, no martingale or anything like that ...

what should i do?? i want to nip this in the bud before it turns into a habit!

julia
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[caggie]

hey...my horse Harry does the same thing so i now hav 2 ride using a flash noseband...i dont really like the things but its the only thing i know of that will prevent him doin so! i cud do with a good few tips on this as well...

C

[notpoodle]

i dont really want to use a flash and tie her mouth shut, as im sure it wont prevent the cause or the 'idea' of her doing it. she only does it in walk so far.

im already beating myself up about it as im sure its my fault somehow :(

julia
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[chev]

If she was happy to change to a different bit, a ported mouth would help make it more difficult for her to do this without putting more pressure on her tongue or mouth. Only drawback is that it comes with all the problems unjointed moutyhpieces do.... using one rein automatically affects both sides of the mouth.

Or, if you don't want to change the mouthpiece, try looking for a hanging cheek french link - that might help in that the hanging cheek tends to sit higher in the mouth and again, deter them from getting the tongue over without resorting to a flash. They're not common but they do exist.

Another answer is to fit a cavesson a little lower than normal, and just tight enought to stop the horse drawing the tongue back far enough to get it over the bit. This sometimes works well with horses that are just starting to do this without strapping on a flash.

It may be that she's be better in a mullen or ported bit though. French links are great but they can encourage horses to fiddle with the bit, and then they end up with their tongues over it. A bit with less play in it can sometimes just keep them quiter in the mouth.

There are also rubber tongue guards you can fit to the bit, but they tend to have limited success, and can interfere with the bit itself.

[notpoodle]

i tried her in a ported, jointd myler bit a while back - she didnt take to it at all :rolleyes:

tried a happymouth as well, she went fine in it until she doscovered it tasted nice and was chomping like a loonie and grabbing the bit as she went along, leaving me with very little input :rolleyes:

i would be happy to change bits if it helped, ill investigate the hanging cheek thing. not sure what thats supposed to look like though, ahem. pictures anyone?

julia
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[chev]

This is a french link hanging cheek.... The cheekpieces go on the small ring, the reins on the larger one. There is a degree of poll pressure (not as much as a gag, but more than an ordinary snaffle) but the main benefit is that the way the bit is designed means it's held slightly higher in the mouth. Because of this it relieves pressure on the tongue and bars.

I know you had a really good dentist out... but it might still be worth having her checked again, just in case something's developed in the meantime. There's usually a reason for horses doing this.

The other option would be to try her in a bitless....

[chev]

Bum, forgot pic.

Here is the hanging cheek.... :rolleyes:

[notpoodle]

ah i think someone at the yard has a bit like that!! i shall investigate!!

i have looked in her mouth for obvious gashes etc. couldnt see anything major. ill see how it goes, if it gets any worse or she shows signs that something isnt quite right in her mouth, ill get the dentist out again just in case.

weird thing is, she's fine in trot and canter and from canter to trot. its just in walk or walk-halt when she begins to act a bit weird ...

julia
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[chev]

Is she a bit full of herself generally? Maybe this is an impatience thing... while she's walking she fiddles - a bit like horses that paw when they're stood still and wanting to get going?

[notpoodle]

uhm yes, i think she is a pony that is a bit full of herself at times :rolleyes: when we halt i usually count to ten in my head before we head off again (to make sure she gets the idea and doesnt anticipate walking straight on again). what she normally does it bop her head up and down (i relax the reins once she is stood still, she bops her head and fiddles with the bit anyway). she used to try and walk off again, but at least she knows by now that she isnt allowed to just wander off, even when the rein contact is relaxed.

julia
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[trainer_girl]

have you ever thought that she was just bored and was just playing with the bit. i know of lots of horses that put there tounge over the bit and there is nothing wrong with them, they are only bored. that would also explain way she only does it at the walk or stoped. if that is the case then changing the bit will not really help, just give her a job to do when she is walking or stoped.

[Just.Jump]

You say that she had her tongue out of the side of her mouth- did you physically get off of her, go to her head, and open her mouth to see if she had her tongue over the bit, or are you assuming? Sticking her tongue out of her mouth isn't something to be worried about, watch a few show jumping events and your bound to see some horses whos tongues flap around to the side through the whole course. Is she a young horse or an adult horse? If she's young, then this could just be something she's testing you on. I rode a newly broken horse, and after a while, she got tired of listening to me completely, head flung up, avoiding pressure, yet when I put pressure on her then she wouldn't respond to it. Generally, in an older horse (young ones as well though) this means they could just be ticked off with you. In my case, it was partly due to boredom, and partly because I hadn't realised that my hands were heavey on her mouth. Due to the steady pressure, she had become dull to my aids on the bit and didn't listen. So, I had to fix it with get backs and the like to get her to respond to me again. I'd suggest going to a simple medium-diameter O-ring snaffle, if anything. (I'm a firm believer that contraptions like insane bits, flash/low nosebands, and martingales are just pure evil) She sounds like she's just playing tricks to get out of work. Also, make sure that the bit isn't too far dropped in her mouth in the first place- the corners of the lips should have a roll of flesh, maybe two maximum to show that the bit is in the right place, not banging on the teeth, etc.

I'm with you on the noseband though- do NOT use one! That's just avoiding the fact that the horse needs to be trained properly. Martingales are a laugh in my world, unless the horse is dangerous without one, people should learn how to get vertical flexsion in the neck. Good luck with trying to fix your problem.

[notpoodle]

she does it in the process of stopping or when i ask her to turn in walk and she thinks she'd rather go the other way :rolleyes:

i didnt get off and check (by that time, the tongue would have been back in anyway), but it looked as if it was over the bit, as the mouth was also open.

she is in a simple loose ring french link (she does not like single jointed bits).

oh and she's 13 :D not exactly a youngster BUT a rather crafty lady of strong opinions :)

julia
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[Just.Jump]

Well then it just sounds as if she's trying to get out of work. At that age, having had her teeth just done should mean that their perfectly fine right now, so thats out of the question, and if she's been hapy with this french link bit for a while then that's probably not it either.

I'd suggest that for stopping you do a get-back, or rein-back, depending on which title you prefer to use, only when she refuses to stop, and as soon as she gives in, reward her by giving her her face and stopping all signals emmediatly. Once she has stopped entirely and isn't moving, give her between 30 seconds to a minute of simply standing there with loose reins. So she gets that when you say stop, she gets to stop working, which sounds like what she wants in the first place.

I'm sure you may have already known this, but if not thats just a refresher for you, and a way of doing it that works incredibly well for me and the horse that just loves to fight.

As for the turning, I would suggest that when she tries to turn the way that you have not signalled her to do, you should do a turn-down stop. Now you may know how to do this, but you may not because as far as I know, it's a more western oriented move. All you have to turn is loosen the rein that you aren't turning with and severely take in the direct rein. You need to draw back the direct rein all the way back to your hip, past it if need be- the horses head she be right beside her shoulder/belly area. This is why you MUST loosen the other rein so there is no contact whatsover. This whole move cannot have mixed signals, if you do it right she should have this problem fixed VERY soon.
*NOTE* you cannot let the horse 'win' in this scenario. I've gotten sore shoulder sockets, aching muscles and all of that trash from this, but I swear it works.


If none of this works, then I'd suggest seeing if maybe your horse got a pain somewhere.. although I think your horse is just being naughty =P

[notpoodle]

now it *could* be the saddle somehow (she lost some weight over the winter), but then she goes fine some days but no others so its not exactly consistent :rolleyes:

she hates reinbacks :rolleyes: in this respect were still in the 'wow you take hesitant step back when i ask you and you shall be rewarded' stage on that.

the turn-down stop sounds interesting, but im not sure i understood it all :rolleyes:

so eg. i want to go straight, she dives right, i loosen the left rein and go for the right one?! did i get that right?

what i normally do when she does this is try and straighten her back up again (so she cant twist her neck and then go wherever she likes) and start afresh.

noticed yesterday that she was fab on the left rein (odd, the normally is better on the right), cantered, went in corners, circled etc. but was very difficult on the right rein (??!!). maybe i AM doing something odd on the left rein which is causing her to do this? i WILL try and have a lesson as soon as i can afford one (not havinng a job at the moment doesnt help!).

julia
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