despairing and frustrated

[Loopslou]

ok, I had Amber going well in a french link with full cheeks and no flash noseband.

Now she is back to being terrible, completely evading the bit, marginally better when out in front on a hack and completely cr*p in the sandschool!

I'm riding her more with my legs as my vet told me to do when he was doing her mouth a few weeks ago and she does come up into my hands but all of sudden then the head is either up in the air, mouth open or down between her legs or low down and side to side, mouth wide open and she is crunching on the bit something serious!

Any suggestions, I'm just now starting to despair.

PS My sister in law also rode her today and she was just as bad if not worse :(

[Bay Mare]

Have you done the back, teeth and tack check?

Have you tried her bitless? If you have how did she go? If not it might be worth a try. When I put Saffy bitless the change was dramatic and instantaneous, she lengthened, relaxed and overtracked. I kept her bitless for a couple of months and then gradually introduced the bit (soft rubber straight bar initially which she ate :rolleyes: and then a Happy Mouth straight bar). Since she's had her back done she's back to evading again so I'm going to get her back rechecked and if that doesn't work put her back in the Hackamore for a while, I may buy a Dr Cook as there has been a big vote of confidence for it on here!

The other option is to get an RA (Intelligent Horsemanship (http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk) Recommended Associate) out to have a look and see if they can figure out what the problem is.

[notpoodle]

glad im not the only one having little 'issues' at the moment :) my pony is in a frenchlink (loose ring with bitguards), no flash ... she's been rather evasive as well lately (spring maybe?!). mine had her teeth done just before xmas.

she is also good on hacks but not so good in the school (today was not good in the school. head in the air, me no steering, pony plodding around randomly ...)

julia
x

[Loopslou]

all checks have been done. The history is, I started her in a mouthing bradoon - no problems leading and long reining in it. Then got her a happy mouth straight bar (wrinkly one, fairly thick, no cheek pieces). She was sent for breaking in this and when the lunged and long reined her they said it was a really good bit for her. About a fortnight into her training I was told she was really gobby and to get her a snaffle. Got her a happy mouth snaffle, still really gobby (I was told they'd had a dentist check her mouth and she was fine). It then turned out when the bits were washed when a cold hit the yard that the yard girl put the snaffle on up side down ( :eek: ). I was told she was going better on the snaffle and then not and to get a french link, I was told she was going perfect on the french link but when I got her home she wasn't "going" at all. Three trips from vet and dentist later and all mouth problems were sorted. Her teeth got sore again there, vet did the needful and I changed from a straight bar happy mouth with full cheeks to the french link with cheeks and she was going well. I'm thinking now though that perhaps she was fine on the orginal straight bar and it was her teeth that were the problem and not the bit! I'm going to try her back on her original one tomorrow. I've also tried her in a hackamore and she spent the whole time seeing is she could bite the bars of the hackamore (she is a total hooligan). We even thought it was the martinagle annoying her today and took it off but she was no better if not a little worse!

When she trotted she was totally hollow in the back and the nose in the air! She is in season but not really bother much with it but I just feel as if I'm two steps forward a million steps back!

[Loopslou]

Amber went much better today in the happy mouth straight bar - couple of bucks but is in season but I was able to circle in each corner of the sandschool without too much fuss. As we started off she did try and get her head down but that may have been to put extra oomph into her bucks, she tried it another couple of times but a quick slap of the whip and she was in my hands. Not perfect but better than the weekend!

[HunterSnaffle]

How long has your horse been using the french link snaffle? I recently started using one and at first my gelding did the same thing with his head but has since settled down. My trainer told me he was just testing the bit because it was new to him...and I think she was right. :)

[Loopslou]

it ended up that the trainer did the majority of her "breaking in" in the french link and I also used it when I got her back then moved to the happy mouth with full cheeks which she was going fairly well on.

She is a real hooligan and I just feel that the french link gives her too much to play with in her mouth and allows her to concentrate more on "playing" and less on working. She even has to have the end of the leadrope in her mouth when you are leading her and that's whether or not you have the bridle on - she is a hooligan through and through!

I was fairly pleased with her head carriage and her bending yesterday (without the cheek pieces) although I did really open my reins to help!

[Dizzy]

How old is she? How long has she been backed? And how many folk have ridden her during her schooling?

[Loopslou]

she's coming up on 4 and a half. I sent her away at 2 1/2 to be trained for lunging and long reining as she was starting to rear and tear about when I even lead her out. The trainer sat on her at that point and then she was turned away until last June when she backed fully. She was ridden just hacking and light schooling in between mouth problems until August and then turned away until February time there. I've only started back schooling her since April and she needed her teeth sorted (again!)

The trainer backed her and her partner did some work but didn't ride her, I've ridden her and other weekend my sister in law hacks her out her lightly schools her if I'm working my other horse. Its also a good check to see if she's playing up on Wendy the way she plays up on me.

At this point in time I thought I would have had her at least half way to being ready for pleasure rides next year but it just doesn't appear to be going to happen!

I don't know how some people are doing loads of work with their 3 and 4 year olds because physically I don't see how the horses are able.

[Loopslou]

I was giving the yard owners wee girl a lesson tonight on Flash so my sister in law Wendy hacked Amber out and then brought her down into the sandschool for me to ride.

She is going alot better in the straight bar eggbut happy mouth with NO cheeks!

Plenty of circles and diagonals and she's great on both reins! BIG improvement - long may it last :D

[Dizzy]

Though all youngsters will feel discomfort when they are cutting adult teeth, some suffer more than others. During thier 3rd year and onwards, they are busy cutting thier back teeth - these are sharp when they errupt and can cause the most problems, especially if the baby tooth caps the new adult tooth. But the teething itself is painful, if you run your hand across the outside length of the whole of your horses lower jaw bone, you'll feel lots of bumps, these are the adult teeth waiting to errupt, there will be the same ammount on the upper jaw, but obviously we can't feel those - but they are there.

The back teeth are incredibly broad, I have been lucky enough to feel them, when my mare was wearing the metal teething contraption that my EDT uses, and I was amazed.

But even if they cut without capping problems, its not a comfortable process, and young anything and pain are a volatile mixture - I challenge anyone to brush my 6 yr old daughters hair, anyone passing by will think that I'm murdering her :D

If your girl has had a painful time teething, its possible that the cheek bars may aggravate her. I would ride her towards a relaxed fluent contact, but use your weight and leg aids mainly, so that she learns to trust your hands not to 'hurt' her mouth - by that I don't mean you have hurt her, the pain has already been present, so she has already been very sensitive.

With her being 4 and a half, hopefully her teething will be all but over, but her memories of pain will be very much in the here and now. It is now a case of reassuring her, and gaining her trust.

[galadriel]

I'm riding her more with my legs as my vet told me to do when he was doing her mouth a few weeks ago and she does come up into my hands but all of sudden then the head is either up in the air [...]

Sounds to me like she can manage to do "real" work for a little bit, but then starts to cramp up or get fatigued. Horses need lots of time to learn how to work well. If you try to insist that they do more than they are physically capable of doing, then they may get very unhappy and evasive.

It's much, much easier for a horse to go in straight lines. Simple hacking is the best thing for a greenish horse without lots of saddle time. Riding around in an arena can be much harder, and require much more effort. Even a large arena may be too small for a green horse.

I'd suggest doing little bits of "real" work at a time, and allowing lots of time to stretch in between "real" work. Or, alternatively, stick to hacking with her until she builds a bit more strength.

[Shiny McShine]

Have to agree with Galadriel, as usual! :)

I was fairly pleased with her head carriage and her bending yesterday (without the cheek pieces) although I did really open my reins to help!

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the head carriage at this stage. She sounds as though she is fighting it, and whenever you have a problem with contact you need to go back and make sure the horse is going forward quietly and obediently, and that the horse is relaxed and loose. Lots of hacks out on a long rein where you can stimulate a horse with bending in between trees or clumps of grass, circling one way then the other are all very good for getting a horse to relax and accept harder demands. Once a horse is working forward well and relaxing through their whole body, the contact usually works itself out on its own, given you have steady, correctly used hands.

I may be way off and if so let me know.
Otherwise I hope this helps, good luck.
Shiny.

[cvb]

I might be getting my wires crossed here - but your description only talks about bit and mouth contact, and not the rest of her ? And I also not 100% sure what you are expecting from her ? i.e. are you simply asking for a long low novice outline, simple school movement etc ?

my understanding (admittedly from limited experience) is that when a horse is sent away to be backed, they often come back with very basic knowledge and still need a lot of work to understand the aids.

So its one thing if thats what you are expecting and working on, but another kettle of fish entirely if you are expecting her to be a "finished" horse, with all the aids in place, able to go correctly and carry herself in a "finished" outline (as opposed to novice outline), and so on...

can you clarify ?

[Loopslou]

you aren't getting your wires crossed at all CVB! ;)

I have to admit I did expect her to be more "finished" when she came back but even simple circles were a no go. I had another trainer look at her (once hthe mouth problems were sorted last year) and she felt that because Amber was sooooo quiet that the trainer has just thought "easy job" and hasn't pushed her on enough. The trainer who "backed" her kept saying that she schooled better in a field behind another horse than in the sandschool BUT of course she was obviously in horrendous pain in her mouth.

This was one of the reasons why I moved to the happy mouth with full cheeks because she didn't even know what I was asking when we reached a corner!

At the moment I'm only schooling her twice a week - she is ridden 5 times a week so 3 times she is hacked out. Not long sessions either - after about 20 mins in the sandschool she is pooped and her concentration just goes! I try and finish on a good note as well.

My main aim is just to have her going forward freely, loosely, to pot with the head carriage just so long as she is happy in her mouth and not fighting the contact and knows what I'm asking and is obedient through her transistions and not rushing. Does this sound like an ok plan of action?

[galadriel]

My main aim is just to have her going forward freely, loosely, to pot with the head carriage just so long as she is happy in her mouth and not fighting the contact and knows what I'm asking and is obedient through her transistions and not rushing. Does this sound like an ok plan of action?

Sounds perfect.

[Loopslou]

now all I have to do is put it into practice :eek: :D

[cvb]

Yes it does sound like a good plan of action. I would throw in some ground work so I could see for myself what she was doing with her mouth. not lots of it, but just enough to see what is going on.

Then with the ridden work I would want to be teaching her at "ABC" level for now (clear, consistent, simple, repeated, and rewarded !) before you move on to "the cat sat on the mat" level...

some of the reaction may be confusion and tension, so you need to get her back to her comfort zone and more confident first. If you think she's already there and its physical, then you have a different set of actions to sort it out !

[Loopslou]

this advice has all been brilliant!

she finds lunging very frustrating almost - she will lunge for a while and then stops as if to say, come on board, give me something exciting to do.

She loves to hack out - especially in front as well so I don't think there any real physical pain problems. I do feel she was "backed" with such a sore mouth that the trainer didn't do as much with her because she was "gubby" but quiet but then now she associates schooling with pain.

I'm going to do one of her schooling sessions tomorrow and see how so goes and just take it very slow and steady and make sure she knows what I am asking of her before I move it up a gear.

[Loopslou]

ok, one huge buck, one bolt up the sandschool with no contact whatsoever, I eventually got Amber going well until I think the following:-

1. she got bored so started pulling the bit and being a nuisance with her head or
2. she got tired so started pulling the bit and being a nuisance with her head or
3. she knows the more she pulls the bit etc etc etc that I will very soon stop her.

She starting this and I pushed her into a trot and she was better but then it started again.

I'm thinking more she was tired, we have had a lot of rain this week so the sandschool was very wet. Am going to hack out tomorrow and will see how she is.

Oh yeah, and she's in season :eek:

[hackedoff]

I would add to the excellent suggestions above that maybe Amber needs a bit of a warm-up in the school not worrying too much about her position or attentiveness really before you start to ask for more. My youngster (especially lungeing) normally gives me 10 mins of pure poo before I can get anything decent out of him. Also to inevitably contribute to the bit/bitless debate, well its well known here I have had huge success with mine, you could give it a go, or try a Myler- both bits of kit come with a free trial period so you have nothing to lose!

[Loopslou]

the trainer tried her in a myler comfort snaffle and she hated it and it broke her mouth out in sores (around the outside almost like an allergic reaction)

I also tried her in a hackamore and she spent more time seeing is she could get the metal bars in her mouth!!!!!

[Loopslou]

ok, we went for a short hack today as its blowing a gale!

Amber was ok behind Flash but by the time we'd got to the corner after the yard she was itching to get ahead. I put her in front and she was brilliant, right in my hands - I kept her on a long low rein almost with my hands resting on the top of my thighs and she was reaching right down into a contact. She wasn't even that bothered when the mad pony up the road starting galloping full tilt around the field and cows - what cows? Not an interest at all. There was black polythene at the side of the road and Flash spooked at it but Amber was not bothered at all. When the mad pony was running around all she did was put her head up and go a bit hollow, but perhaps I tensed up and she was reacting more to that so I took a deep breath and brought my hands back up and playing with her mouth.

We had a short trot as well and she was much more balanced. She was so relaxed through her mouth today I felt I had 110% control.

[Showjumper]

Sounds fantastic - well done! :D

[Loopslou]

we had a bad "spook" at some cows about 3 weeks ago and I have to say that my confidence was just shot to pieces. Feel great today and hope to get a couple of good schooling sessions this week along with some relaxing hacks to let her clear her head. I feel more positive and in control which is great!

Again guys, thanks for all the support and tips ;)

[hackedoff]

Sounds like she likes to be lower and longer in her outline, which at her age makes sense. Well done you. Re Myler reaction - eeek! possible copper allergy?

[Loopslou]

I couldn't believe it when I saw the state of her mouth after she'd had to myler bit in, really red and sore around her lips and into the side of her mouth and the bit was the correct fit for her.

She was much happier on the lower outline and really searching for a contact, I just kept working my hands forward with her movement and playing with my fingers and she was mouthing really well and not as fussy with her head at all - of course, when she's behind another horse she starts fussing because she wants to get close enough to them to nip (playfully) at their bums! - she's such a hooligan.

[Just.Jump]

Alright, well I only read the first post of this, and I'm sure that there was another question regarding a horse evading the bit as well. This is a quote from a book I'm reading:

"Any gadget bit, ot any bit which depends on pain and leverage rather than pressure, is a subsitute for training. Substitutes will eventually let you down. Your best bet is to put on a simple snaffle, a flat caveson fitted loosely, and begin training your horse at this point. Obviously he will present difficulties to you. I doubt that you have been able to purchase a horse that was already perfectly trained.

Horses mouths fall into two general categories, either dry-mouthed or busy. "Dry-Mouthed" horses hold the bit still in their mouth and usually make a concerted effort to lean on the riders hands. A "busy-mouthed" horse continually plays with the bit, opening and closing his mouth, lifting or lolling his tongue, and usually tries to overflex. Horses that are dry-mouthed should be put in a loose-ring snaffle, which will provide some extra suppleness to the bit in the horses mouth. Extreme cases can be dealt with at home by using a yearling or "keys" bit in order to promote mobility of the horses' jaw.
Horses that are already overly supple in their mouths and avoid contact by gaping their mouths or gnashing their teeth should use a flat-ring or egg-butt snaffle. This will produce more stability in the connection between the rider's hand and the bit in the horses mouth. All horses wil be one-sided to a greater or lesser extent. Extreme cases may be dealt with by using a double jointed snaffle, either a Dr. Bristol or a french-link. Horses that loll or ball their tongue should have the bit placed one or two holes higher than usual in the mouth, to prevent them from getting their tongue over the bit."

I'd say go to a snaffle, maybe your horse is objecting because the bit is too harsh for it's liking, and I'd work fromt here up to an egg-butt snaffle.

[galadriel]

We had a short trot as well and she was much more balanced. She was so relaxed through her mouth today I felt I had 110% control.

Beautiful :)

[cvb]

I think if you imagine her as a 4 year old kid just starting at school - and think of the attention span that age of children have, you'll be about right :D

That doesn't mean you should give in to every tantrum, but you need to support her in learning to focus a little longer each time.

Yesterday I rode my mum's Fell and did some canter work - which is his worst pace - and he got quite puffed. So I walked him and did some turn on forehand work instead. He also concentrates better if there are poles in the school - don't ask me why, you don't have to USE the poles :rolleyes: Anywa, he's no baby - he's 17. But its a whole lot better if I work with him rather than against him. ;)

[Loopslou]

I think although I had her going well in the french link for a few sessions, I think overall it was too narrow in her mouth and there was too much access to it for her to nothing but "teeth" on it. She really seems to like the straight bar happy mouth eggbut and is mouthing but not snatching if you see what I mean. No head in the air trying to evade all contact either!

She has had problems with a locking stifle and about 3 times yesterday she sort of went down at the bum when going down hill so I'm also trying to incorporate plenty of hill work to strengthen her and I hope that in turn will make our schooling sessions in the sandschool more positive too.

Long and low seems to be the way to go at the minute and she definitely perfers hacking to schooling but hye, as a youngster I perferred break time to classes in school.

I'm only going to do one schooling session this week and try and hack out more. I don't want to bore her stupid in the sandschool either!

[Loopslou]

had a schooling session tonight, I did a few laps of the school and then Harry lunged me on Amber. I had never done that and although she has been lunged its quite possibly the first time she's has carried someone as well (not sure if the trainer did this too). She went really well, only did 5 mins each rein and she was pooped but was mouthing really well although once she was tired, down with the head!

She also walked on my foot - why does she never do that when I'm wearing my toe tectors! :o