What's the best way to lead a bargey horse?

[Beausowner]

What's the best way to lead a bargy horse in hand (he's only bargy when he's scared and decides he wants to go the other way, which is usually whenever I want him to go anywhere apart from the yard)? I've been told and tried various methods:

1. Bridle and bit, reins in riding position: found no control, just pulls my arm out.

2. Bridle and bit, reins over head: again even pulling down on bit he still doesn't take a blind bit of notice.

3. Headcoller: holding on to cheekpiece above nose buckle so have my weight as leverage on nose: better for getting him past things he's scared of and stops him standing on my feet but have been told could break my finger doing it that way.

4. Lead on loose rein - jumps into me or runs in front of me or treads on my toes.

5. Thought of control halter/rope, but have been told that if the bridle and bit doesn't work then that won't.

Help - has anyone else got bargy horse and if so how did you get over leading problems and what method do you use?

[Yann]

The only way you'll sort the problem reliably is by doing some groundwork to get your horse used to the idea of listening to you, taking your lead and respecting your space. You could try Parelli games or get hold of a copy of Perfect Manners by Kelly Marks and do the foundation exercises in there. It's quite surprising how quickly a horse will catch on if you use pressure and release correctly to show it what you want.

[MelanieD]

I've used a rope halter on my bargy horse. She barged through a bit or had a huge tantrum if I tried pulling a bit harder on it, I've got more control to lead her in a rope halter than in a bridle and if she's being a baggage I don't have to worry about pulling on her mouth. Just changing to a rope halter isn't a magic cure for barging but it is a good tool for teaching them how to behave. I used to lead fatty on a loose rope when she was behaving, shorter rope to discuss things and if she did ignore the halter she got backed up or dragged back to where she started barging repeatedly until she walked nicely.

[SarahC]

I used a pressure and release headcollar on my last horse, who used to take off on a regular basis. The immediate release when he stopped pulling, jogging etc worked wonders.

S

[diva]

I use a chifney once in a blue moon when he needs a reminder whos meant to be leading who. It works wonders.

[Shiny McShine]

I work with racehorses so needless to say I have seen your problem before. There is nothing more nerve-racking than the fear of a horse trampling over you at any moment. I agree that the rope-halter is your best bet. However, it won't work well unless it has some training to back it up. If this is your own horse that shouldn't be a problem. If you can get your horse to yeild to forward, backward and sideways pressure in a rope-halter then you will have far less trouble in panic situations. I would suggest looking into some natural horsemanship groundwork techniques just to get an idea of some excersies to do and try it out.

Good luck,
Shiny.

[Bay Mare]

I agree with Yann and the others who said that it's down to groundwork. You can also use a pressure halter but learn how to 'work it' first :) Again, some groundwork in the school will be helpful.

It may also be helpful to have a longer lead rope (or even a coiled up lunge rein) so that he has somewhere to go, he may feel 'trapped' on a shorter lead which can make the spookiness worse and make him more likely to want to get away. It's also safer for you! When it was really windy during the winter and I had a wrecked ankle I used a lunge rein to get madam in. She spooked at a sack which blew up against a fence but because she wasn't restricted she ran in a smallish circle around me and then stopped, I'm sure that it would have been worse if she had also felt restricted.

I wouldn't advise you using a chifney unless you're experienced with using one and it's an extreme measure. I don't like the viewpoint that you need to show him who is in charge especially with a horse who is bargey because he's scared, it's not teaching him anything except that it can be scary to be led.

[diva]

In my opinion handler safety is paramount and for that matter I don't think the horse learning that when its nervous it can shoot off is very safe either. Obviously don't yank it about but I think control then you get the chance to reassure. I however not of the parreli school so my answers are just suggestions on what I would have done with my boys. I think once firmly then never needed again is better but every one is different.

[Esther.D]

As Yann, Bay mare etc have said, it is down to ground work. Rupert used to be so bargey he would pull me off my feet (he is only 13.1hh) and that was in a bridle. We have been doing Parelli (but the Kelly Mark's Perfect Manners exercises are very similar) and now he is a dream to lead, walks on a loose rope, never barges even though he is an excitable, potentially flighty pony, people now remark on how well mannered he is...he certainly wasn;t like that before we did the ground work - he came to me because he had terrorised his previous owner..

[Yann]

The problem comes when the 'once firmly' doesn't work, you need to find another way of dealing with the issue. The use of a longer leadrope is purely a safety precaution, the horse isn't allowed to get away but if it tries you're able to let it circle or get out of the way of its feet without getting trampled and you remain in control.

[H & Bailey]

When I worked at the riding school many moons ago :rolleyes: we always had to lead in a headcollar and were told to hang on no matter what as used to lead out point to point horses and livery hunters.the boss said to lead short and use your elbow by their neck to get a bit of leverage ..yeah right when your 5ft3 and leading a 17hh on springs!
i have been working with younger horses lately and found that as most have said on here, make sure you have good basic groundwork,being able to lunge the horse is one of the best things .Then i would lead out with a lunge rope and schooling whip so if the horse trys to back up you can use you whip behind you while still having both hands on the lunge rein.if the horse trys to barge let out the rein and send it round you in a circle.you can be moving forwards slightly while doing this.then the horse will get past the scary thing and forget why its being silly.you are less likely to get trampled or dragged as you would if you were leading on a short rope.
i have found the horses i have worked with soon get sick of going round in a circle and get the confidence to walk properly which is what it sounds with your horse...a lack of confidence.
keep talking to the horse all the time telling him what you want ie 'walk'.hope this helps.

[Jorose90]

Some people may or may not agree with this but if it's just leading out then it may not be a good idea. However if it's turnout then you may not mind the idea. My horse was turned out in a chiffney when he got bargy and fresh. (particualarly good for a horse that rears) Personally i'd rather take him out softly in a chiffney then take him out and yank him really hard in the mouth with a snaffle on his bridle. But really it's personal preference. I changed back to a head collar after he'd learnt who was in charge and now he's as good as gold for turnout - on a long rope and head collar. But some people may not agree with this method.
x x x

[Yann]

A chifney might be appropriate in some circumstances but it's the nuclear option as far as leading is concerned and you risk causing serious damage to the horse's mouth if you're not careful. Better to treat the cause rather than the symptoms in the long run if you can.

[diva]

Personally i'd rather take him out softly in a chiffney then take him out and yank him really hard in the mouth with a snaffle on his bridle. But really it's personal

This was my point. I feel the same with riders that smugly say they are in a snaffle then practically rip their horses mouth out because they can't control it. For the record both mine are in snaffles but I don't see the problem in using a chifney if one is needed. I work bringing on horses other people have spoiled and 9 times out of 10 its because they have progressivly allowed the horse to become worse and worse until it is totally out of control.

[hackedoff]

I agree with Yann (as usual :) ) its a question of putting the hours in on the ground addressing the issues, that is if you have the time and inclination. Teaching my youngster to respect me on the ground has led to a better relationship all-round, he has got used to listening to me and we are a partnership, his brawn and my brains! For me the journey was well worth it.

[Mary Poppins]

My old loan horse could be very bargy at times. A few months ago I took him to an in hand show on my own and the only way I could get any degree of control over him was to put a chiffney on him (it actually took 3 people to get it on him). In his case I don't think that he was scared, I think we were playing a game of dominance and he wanted to show me that he was the dominant one (which he infact was!). I felt very uncomfortable leading him in his chiffney as I have heard stories about breaking horses jaws with them etc. but at the time it was a choice between letting him gallop off round the showring or putting the chiffney on.

I stopped loaning him after that show, but the only thing which would have improved our relationship would have been lots and lots of groundwork to develop some kind of trust and bond between us so he didn't think that he could walk all over me (literally). Even though he was wearing the chiffney, he still didn't have the slighest bit of respect for me, and his behaviour only improved when his chiffney was on because of the pain it would have caused him to pull against it. I would rather be with a horse who truely respected and trusted me, rather than just complied with what I wanted because of the fear of pain.

[Bay Mare]

A chifney might be appropriate in some circumstances but it's the nuclear option as far as leading is concerned and you risk causing serious damage to the horse's mouth if you're not careful. Better to treat the cause rather than the symptoms in the long run if you can.

Even though he was wearing the chiffney, he still didn't have the slighest bit of respect for me, and his behaviour only improved when his chiffney was on because of the pain it would have caused him to pull against it. I would rather be with a horse who truely respected and trusted me, rather than just complied with what I wanted because of the fear of pain.

Exactly! I also don't think that those of us who have spoken against the chifney advocate 'yanking them really hard with a snaffle' either. Yes, horses are stronger than we are but they're also intelligent enough that we can work with them on the ground to improve things like leading without force or the potential for hurt or harm which there always is with something like a chifney.

Different strokes for different folks but I would rather look at the problem, try and see why it's happening and work WITH the horse to solve it rather than using 'gadgets' (used in the broader sense) to force them to comply. With force or the threat of force you either end up with more trouble in the long run or a horse who is compliant but not from a willingness to be so.

[diva]

My only problem with parreli is that Ihave yet to see a horse that is happy as a result. One day they are being lunged with a whip, ridden conventionally then before they know it the lunge whip suddenly becomes an overpriced carrot stick which the horse has waved at it and all its tack is changed. My horses are handled the way they always have and both came to me as problem horses and are now fantastic. I think natural has become a fashion and we should remember that previously pretty much everyone used the same techniques, I'm all for people using what works for them but get pretty sick of people suddenly thinking that everyone that uses traditional methods are cruel. I CHOOSE not to do it and so when someone asks for advice I will give what I would do and assure you it won't be any worse in my mind than what some parts of parreli do. :)

[Esther.D]

My only problem with parreli is that Ihave yet to see a horse that is happy as a result.

Come and meet ours then :) Two 'problem' horses who are now happy, well adjusted individuals who are remarked upon wherever we go for how settled, well mannered and gentle they are. However I, and a lot of people who do Parelli, certainly wouldn't label traditional methods 'cruel', in fact I was reading a cavalry manual from the 1850s and that has techniques very similar to Parelli in it, Parelli doesn't claim to have invented a method that is new and suddenly better he uses things that have been around for a long time. They happen to suit us and our horses, particularly the desensitisation aspects of it, but I also do a lot of longreining and some lunging too...

[Big Ears]

my cob mare was bargy, or wouldn't move, would walk through you, knock you over, barge out of stables, hit you with her head, knock you over with hter shoulder etc. In a head collar, bridle you name it. she was dangerous.

I got someone to teach me Natural Horsemanship and i can move her over with a finger tip now. It took us 20 minutes a day over a month to teach her to respect my space but now she is very good, doesn't argue, just obeys quietly. She was very very nasty at first.

I would try a pressure halter as if she ever reverts to Miss Piggy, two minutes in the halter reminds her that she is not in charge. I can lead her with just a rope round her neck if I want to, before she would have ignored me completely.

You need someone to teach you the techniques, then work on it daily and I am sure you will see a huge difference.

[eventerbabe]

when toby was young and very bolshy and bargy to lead, i used a snaffle bridle to lead him in. as soon as he barged off i'd circle him and i'd keep on circling him til he walked on quietly. if in a headcollar you could try the old trick with the rope round the nose. i was once asked to turn out this very sweet but naughty conny gelding and it worked wonders on him, and when i went to bring him in i didn't need to bother putting leadrope around his nose coz he behaved beautifully.

i don't advocate chiffeny bits, but thats coz i've never used one. like most pieces of horse equipment, they have their place and may be ok if used correctly.

there does seem to be a trend in "pointing fingers" at people who don't follow parelli or NH. people shouldn't be vindicated just coz their opinions differ from others. as long as they are being sympathetic to the horse and not cruel then i personally don't see a problem.

[Yann]

You don't need to do Parelli or wave carrot sticks about, I don't, indeed I have misgivings about some aspects of Parelli as I think it can be applied too forcefully and end up with the results you describe. It's possible to use 'natural' methods in your horse handling without changing anything else at all. The only 'natural' thing about it is that you work with an understanding of what makes the horse tick. In most cases it amounts to the same thing as good traditional handling, but knowing how and why something is effective means you can make small adjustments which have big effects on your horse's behaviour. It's not complicated and it works.

[Yann]

Cross posted with you EB - I don't think anyone is having a go at anyone, and I haven't seen anyone post anything to suggest that 'traditional is cruel', only that using a chifney should be approached with caution and that there were possibly better ways to deal with the problem in the long term.

In most cases it amounts to the same thing as good traditional handling

The way you describe working with your bolshy horse backs this up:)

[Beausowner]

Thanks everyone. You've given me a lot of ideas to work with. I do a lot of ground work (Kelly Marks until now, but am thinking of doing some of the Parelli games) - it's really helped with both Beau's and my confidence. He rarely spooks now when ridden in the school and if he does it is what I would call a normal spook - not dramatic and unsitable like before, so I am a real advocate for groundwork. The problem is that he is (most of the time) very good leading from the field and when doing groundwork in the school - there are no problems, it is only when he is led somewhere he is not used to that he gets frightened, more frightened, and decides to take me wherever he decides to go - backwards, sideways, forwards, not helped by the fact that when he is unsure he forgets all about my space and gets as close as possible to me and when told to go out goes into can't hear/feel mode, so I need ways to control him whilst leading out (I can't reinforce with groundwork in the school because he does everything he's told there and in the stable). I don't want to use a chiffney - Beau has a very soft mouth and I'm not experienced enough. I don't feel it's necessary at the moment, but I can see Diva's point - I used to be a firm "softy" but soon learnt that when Beau was being naughty (and it was naughtiness not that he hadn't been taught something) a smack on the neck with the hand or tug of the reins did nothing whereas one smack with the whip on the neck does wonders - and it hasn't made him scared of the whip- he playfully pinches it from me when we have finished and stands with it in his mouth, but it still does the job! What I have seen of Parelli you are still using pain with the halter and hackamore to teach - I do like Kelly Mark's school of thought, though. For me it is a matter of getting the balance right. It is difficult as I don't want to be too hard on him as he is frightened, but for safety's sake I don't want to be in the position where I have to let him go - I know if he does it once then I will have an awful lot of problems - not with him running off because I don't think he would go that far from me but he would then try to break free constantly every time I led him. I think I will go for a control halter - as he is good in the school he should learn quite comfortably. I'm going to try the circling idea as well (never thought of doing it on ground but that works when he's ridden and decides he doesn't want to stop). Anyhow, wish me luck, and thanks again for all the advice!

[Yann]

Good luck:)

It sounds like you're on the right track. I would maybe suggest a couple of things though - don't limit your groundwork to the school or stable, have him halting, backing and moving over when you're leading him in from the field for example. The other thing I would do is avoid making the going out a big trial at all costs. For example go 20 yards the first time, praise like hell if he's brave and then go home. The second day go 50 yards, and so on. Make sure you're asking him to do something he has a chance of achieving:)

Parelli doesn't train using pain, but pressure in the same way as Monty etc. You would find that the philosophy tends to be a lot more confrontational, you generally make your ask stronger and stronger until the horse does as its told. You aren't presented with alternative ways to try things in the same way as in Perfect Manners, it is a more dominant and potentially harder way of working with your horse and won't suit everyone.

[Beausowner]

Thanks Yann. I will take it slowly with him. I've only seen the first Parelli training video - thought the halter he used had knots on the most sensitive parts of the nose and pressure on these would cause pain to the horse - although it would be progressive and only if the horse resisted - certainly not the same as a hard punch on the nose which my last (notice I did say last) livery/instructor did! I do like some of the games, but from what I have seen it won't be for me - I'm too old to go to the next stage of the way of riding! He Has been out hacking by the way a few days ago - my instructor and another horse only 500 yards down the lane and he was fine - she made me go the next time a few days ago and again he was fine - in fact the other horse was really spooky and mine just walked on by! He seems to have got braver around the yard since then, but I have to sort the issue of leading out before we go further afield.
K