more Foundation Excersizes questions

[Susara]

In a previous post I explained about getting hold of Kelly Mark's Perfect Manners, and starting with her Foundation Excersizes on my 2.5 YO gelding, Hunter. After three sessions per week for the past two/three weeks, I can proudly announce that:
- can I touch him all over (this has never been an issue, he's very confident)
- he comes forward beautifully
- he actually does the Following Pressure excersize very nicely. I know this isn't part of the Foundation Exs but I just tried it once and he did it so nicely it's part of our excersize set now
- the backing and lateral movement... that's what I want to know about

Hunter starts to understand the backing up, but after about the second stride I get the impression he feels I'm bullying him; he raises his head, puts his ears back, gives me white eye balls and generally tenses up. It's as if I'm really being assertive to the point of agressiveness, and he takes offence at that. I've heard it said that horses don't move backwards naturally and that it's a pretty dominating thing to do to back a horse up. Might I be overdoing it before he trusts me to make him walk where he can't see?

Almost the same holds for the lateral movement; on pressing his side he moves off his hindquarters (ie doesn't move laterally properly). Kelly says that's fine at first, but he tenses when he does this. Sometimes I even get the impression he thinks of turning his butt towards me as a bit of a threat, although he's never even come close to lifting a leg. After one or two of these skewy 'lateral movements', if I just want to stroke him he moves away, again as if he's avoiding bullying.

Am I just being paranoid?

BTW, I thought I'd just show him my saddle and check his reaction. His lack of stress eventually had me leading him around with the saddle (girth loosely fitted) without him batting an eye!

[Susara]

Am I being paranoid about no-one responding?? :-)

[Yann]

LOL! Don't know how much help I can be though:D

If your horse finds the backing up difficult, either because he's not comfortable with it or feels you are challenging him, then I'd keep it low key and just ask for a single step at first, and get that good before you ask for more. I usually combine the backing up and coming forward so there's always a pleasant outcome. It took me quite a long time to get my horse backing up lightly, she also tended to brace if you asked for too much at once. The main thing is to keep both of you relaxed and calm, as the saying goes 'adrenalin up learning down':)

Teaching them to move laterally also took a while, it's often quite easy to get the hindquarters moving, but not so easy with the rest of the horse. Working alongside a fence helped us a lot. It does sound like he's feeling challenged by what you're asking, look for and reward any little tries and don't ask for too much at once to start with.

[cvb]

Am I being paranoid about no-one responding?? :-)

no - we just sometimes miss questions if there's a lot of posting going on :D

I don't know the Kelly Marks exercises, but making the assumptions that a lot of the principles are the same across different NH methodologies...

a horse needs to work out how to move his weight and feet when you ask for back-up. Sure he'll do it naturally in the field. But now you are asking him to respond to a specific cue, in your control.

often with "traditional" enlgish training, we end up with horses that have their weight in such a way that its hard for them to move back or sideways, so they have to relearn. One of the keys to both movements is a lift in the withers, and through abdomen and back, to redistribute the weight.

So - normally what happens is you start by asking for one step. Reward that. Now ask, reward, and ask again. So its one step - stop - one step. No start to speed up when you ask the second time, so you start to string the two steps together. In two "steps" you have then moved all four feet. So now add a third step - so its one step one step - stop - one step. Each time you add another "ask" and then reduce the pause.

Each time you are giving a release at the end of the sequence.

Make sense ?

You kind of have two options with cues. Circling Game (parelli) assumes that you have a "start" cue (sending them out) and then they carry on moving til you give them the "stop" cue (bring back).

Some of the other games use "rub to a stop" and actually you carrying on giving the cue until you want them to stop responding.

I'm not sure which Kelly will use for rein back - but it tends to be a "ask ask ask ask" then remove the "ask" to stop.

One of the things we end up talking about a lot is the fine control of the horse's feet. In the end you are not asking for "rein back" you are saying "move this foot that way" again and again to create the rein back. So if you don't ask them to move the foot, you don't get the movement ;)

This also translates into ridden work. With the Parelli L1 assessment, riding with one rein, you ask for rein back by rhythmic lifting of the rein - i.e. ask, ask again, ask again, stop asking :D

[Susara]

Ok, no more paranoia :) Thanks for the responses. These do make sense. I'll just keep it really relaxed and one step at a time.

CVB, Kelly says to stop giving one's signal the moment the horse responds. She specifically warns against stopping only when he stops, because that teaches him to stop when you stop your signal. She wants a signal to mean 'keep on doing this until I ask you to change'.

[Yann]

It is ask and release, so if you want to back up for a few strides then you'd ask for each stride. How are you asking? If it's purely with the leadrope and headcollar you might find it helps to use a light hand on the centre of the chest too, again instantly releasing the moment you get something. As he gets better over time you can dispense with this. The same goes for moving sideways.

Moving him backwards or over is a dominating action on your part, that's how one horse asserts itself over another, so he may well be finding this difficult depending on your current relationship. Give plenty of praise and fuss in between your efforts to show him that doing as you ask has pleasant consequences. If he's not bargy or nippy you could even treat for very good efforts or use clicker training with the exercises. That's what I've done and found it made quite a difference, it can really switch the horse on to what you're asking for.

[Susara]

I ask for backing by pushing against his breast bone as you (Yann) suggested; rather than pushing back with the halter. With the halter I tend to push both down and back, so when he drops his head in response to the downward pressure there's no rope left to get him to go backward! Also I liked it with my previous horse (taught by someone else) that I could back him up simply by lightly touching his breast, rather than fiddling with his head.

I feel better now that you both have said it's normal for them to feel challenged by the backing, I've only had Hunter for a few weeks (and can only see him a two/three times per week) so, although he's not distrusting of people in general, he's got no particular reason to trust me moving him backward and sideways. So I'll just keep it slow and relaxd. Thanks!

[Yann]

If you use the leadrope it might be more effective to raise your hand slightly and hold it one side and use a pulsing pressure on the lead rope. This also gives a visual cue and eventually the horse will back up from you raising your hand and a very light pressure (and possibly making the kiss noise!).

Pulsing the pressure stops your horse leaning on you which sounds like it might be happening, I've also seen the lead rope worked from side to side. Make sure you're getting your body language right too so it's clear what you want.

[cvb]

agree with Yann - he's probably doing what he thinks you want when you use the headcollar.

I can back Fi up when I'm leading her, but its more of an up and back (as Yann describes - also not constant), and it involves body language as well. She'll stop just off the body language normally so haven't had to break down what I do with the rope....